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ittiandro
9th June 2011, 12:27 AM
Hi!

I normally sail ( or try to !) on a 145 lts board with larger sails ( Ezzy 7.5 or Pilot 8.5) because I am not advanced enough enough to tackle stronger winds yet.
Having made the transition from a 190 lts board, I find uphauling from the 145 lts much much harder and tiring, because the rig feels so much heavier and lifeless , even though I am in top shape and very strong ( albeit no longer young)
1.Is it normal for large sails in light winds to feel so much heavier and difficult to uphaul and move around ? Does the 145 lts, by itself, really make a difference in terms of easy uphauling, as compared to a higher volume boards ? Or is it something else?
2.I already have a 75% carbon mast , but perhaps I could lessen the weight of the rig even more by buying a lighter boom ( the one I have is an old one, probably 7-8 years old). How much weight could I shave off with a modern alloy boom or even a carbon one? Would it be worth-while?
3. Also, when the rig swivels on the universal joint, it doesn’t flip around as freely as I expected ( especially when I see other sailors) . This adds to the feeling of heaviness and lack of maneuverability of the rig.
Although the inner cylinder-shaped plastic joint of the mast-foot does not show signs of wear, I noticed that there is now almost a ½ gap between the 2 parts joined by the bolt ( which shows through it). Is it normal?

Thank you for your comments

Ittiandro, Montreal, Canada

PG
9th June 2011, 11:44 AM
Yes, big sails (7.5 and up) are heavy to handle. They are no fun unless planing.

Yes, uphauling and moving around on a 145 liter board is much more demanding than on a 190 liter board. The smaller board is really designed for planing windsurfing only!

No, there has not been any significant weight saving with new booms. And carbon booms are typically just as heavy as aluminium ones.

With regards to the mast foot, show it to some experiences windsurfer at your beach and ask for his advice!

nakaniko
9th June 2011, 03:03 PM
1) Imho I agree with PG, even if with a 145 litres board 7,5 and 8,8 should be inside the suggested range of the board (what board?). But for sure downsizing from a 190 to a 145 is a big step so in the first times you can feel larger sails heavier, you'll feel it less improving. I'm a medium-advanced sailor, 43 years, c6-c7 spinal problems and I uphaul with no problemas a camless 7 batten sail over a 138 litres board, almost the same with the 9,5 (same sail type), even it the difference is noticeable. Also you could make some mistake in uphauling, check with an instructor and pay attention to your spine, uphaul bending and then extending the knees and not your back.
Anyway if the 8,5 is a Pilot from Gaastra, it should be lightweight sail; don't know how Ezzy you have.
2) Imho carbon booms are stiffer and gives more performance, but are not so much lightweight, many times not lighter at all, and for sure are much pricy, even too much for a lerner; on the opposite I don't know how old is your boom but as I know some of the older were heavy and espacially unconfortable, I've had for first boom a too flexible one with nasty twist lock old device, a nightmare; and they are often thicker and so less easy to handle, modern alloy boom are with smaller tube section and so way more confortable especially for people (like me) with not so big hands and long fingers.
3) I don't understand if the joint is mechanical or rubber, anyway if there some unexpected gap don't loose time, go to a windsurf shop and make them check it and repair it. I waited too much with an even famous branded one, the result was sudden breackage of the joint in the middle of the Talamone bay, causing an hole in the deck of the board and many problems for coming back on the shore...
Al this opinions imho and as normal windsurfer.

Ken
9th June 2011, 10:09 PM
Good comments above.

No need to go to more carbon. No gain for you and lots of $.

If there is more than a couple of mm of gap between the bolt from the rubber hour glass to the base of the extension, then there may be a problem with excessive wear or a loose bolt inside the cup; and possibly a future broken bolt. I don't know what "1/2 gap" means? As recommended, ask a fellow windsurfer to take a look.

Uphauling the new board will be a little more difficult because your platform (board) is smaller, but it won't take long to learn. However, your weight could be an issue. If you are 200 kg, then the balance and stability will be a lot more challenging than if you weigh 70kg. Use your legs as much as possible and not your back (squat rather than bending at the waist).

Windman
12th June 2011, 04:39 AM
Good morning, ittiandro,

With regard to uphauling, you might consider using the Easy-Uphaul, available from Chinook dealers:

http://www.chinooksailing.com/products/product_info.php?products_id=146.

Can verify that uphauling big sails is much easier.

Hope this helps.

ittiandro
13th June 2011, 04:28 AM
Hi!

Thank you all for your hints.Much appreciated. I have already ordered the Easy-Uphaul a few days ago. Hope it really helps, because I discovered that back-pain and hard uphauling are the trade-offs I unwittingly ( and regretfully) fell into when I made the transition from my super-stable ( and, I thought, a bit slow) beginner's board (Starboard Rio) to the more advanced Tabou Rocket.

What attracted me to this board is not only the very good deal I had on it, but also the hope that its light weight ( about 8kg as compared to almost 14. Kg of the Rio, i.e. almost 40% less ) would make the Rocket easier to sail and to plane in light winds, thus enjoyable also by relatively unexperienced sailors like me . Actually I regret my decision, because I have come to realize that these SUPER PERFORMING ( and SUPER-EXPENSIVE !) "'PLANING" short- boards, w/out a daggerboard as they are , are a real pain in the neck ( and in the back!) unless the winds are strong enough to plane. In moderate winds and sub-planing conditions, they are actually as good as a drifting log, or at least one that doesn't move too much ...
I am really dreaming about a board which is a good compromise for the average sailor between the stability, the sub-planing performance and the tracking capability of a traditional long-board ( or a beginner's short-board, at least ) on one hand, and the responsiveness and planing performance of advanced boards like the Tabou Rocket . But I think these two world are never to meet. If I am wrong, I'd love to have your suggestions and comments.

Thank you

Ittiandro

joe_windsurfer
13th June 2011, 06:34 AM
you are correct
short-boards do NOT schlogg well at all
light winds are good for long-boards, formula boards or giant sails on giant short-boards
i still uphaul 8.5 AND 10-oh sails
when i drop the 10-oh in the water i rush to get it out before the sleeve fills with water
the wider big boards also do NOT do well if there is one foot chop {too small 2b called waves}
my old BIC cuts waves better than the 79 cm short board !!
thus i too am considering a planing long-board if i was to invest in a new board again !!!
the small shortboards are what killed the industry not so long ago
i was hoping the SUPs , the KONAs, Phantoms, big GOs , etc would revive the fun factor for the average joe windsurfer like myself !!!
however, do NOT give up on the 145 - when the wind is right - it will be a GREAT board !!!
http://joewindsurfer.com

ittiandro
13th June 2011, 08:59 AM
Thank you Joe,

I neither have the intention (nor the money!) to give up on my the 145 lts Tabou for another more suitable board and this motivates me to persist in order to improve my skills. This way I can have a return on my investment !
I wonder, however, what are the " right" winds which can finally make my Tabou experience a blissful one!
I weigh about 80 kg,( which already puts me at a disadvantage compared to 65 kg sailors) What minimum windspeed is required for me to get planing on the board, given my weight, without having to use the more cumbersome 7.5 and 8.5 sails? Ideally, I'd like to use 6 or 6.5 sails, no more. Do I have to wait for... hurricane winds in order to get planing with my board with smaller sails? Hope not.
Any suggestion as to which board would take me off the hook, without being too much of a beginner's board? I wouldn't want to go above 180 lts. Would a 160 lts be a good compromise, compared to my 145? Problem is no 160 lts have a daggerboard, as far as I know.

Anybody has any comments?

THank you

Ittiandro

ittiandro
13th June 2011, 09:01 AM
Thank you Joe,

I neither have the intention (nor the money!) to give up on my the 145 lts Tabou for another more suitable board and this motivates me to persist in order to improve my skills. This way I can have a return on my investment !
I wonder, however, what are the " right" winds which can finally make my Tabou experience a blissful one!
I weigh about 80 kg,( which already puts me at a disadvantage compared to 65 kg sailors) What minimum windspeed is required for me to get planing on the board, given my weight, without having to use the more cumbersome 7.5 and 8.5 sails? Ideally, I'd like to use 6 or 6.5 sails, no more. Do I have to wait for... hurricane winds in order to get planing with my board with smaller sails? Hope not.
Any suggestion as to which board would take me off the hook, without being too much of a beginner's board? I wouldn't want to go above 180 lts. Would a 160 lts be a good compromise, compared to my 145? Problem is no 160 lts have a daggerboard, as far as I know.

Anybody has any comments?

THank you

Ittiandro

nakaniko
13th June 2011, 06:58 PM
Sounds like there is some confusion in your windsurfing ideas, so best suggestion could be to spens some time in a windsurfing center and share your doubts with an instructor.
BTW, I'm 90 kg, so 10 kg more than you, but with an almost old widebody freeride (Fanatic Sting Ray "150" really 138) lt and a camless 8,5 I think I can plane with 12 knots. With the same camless 9,5 pheraphs with around 10 knots.Nasrrow mast sleeve and easy to uphaul, actual Hotsailsmaui Speed Demon 9,7 can be rigged on a 490 and have a short 230 boom.
So with some skill you, -10 kg and with a slightly bigger board could plane with less wind.
Camless sail as I've read are less stable in wind holes and kcannot handle stronger winds, but if you don't want to dare going out in 20 knots with a 9,5 or even 8,5 like pro's and skilled slalome riders, who cares?
My other founded data are about this: 6,5=15+ ktn, 5,3-5,5=20 ktn, 4,5=25 ktn.
Below 10 knots, or pheraphs 8-9 for you, planing is very difficult unless you rig an enormous 12,5 on a golden priced 550 or 580 mast etc etc. So final my choice for superlight winds as we have in Venice for most of the year was a choice without compromises: Starboard Serenity, 460x61,5, 257 litres, think at a canore with sail. It glides with 2-5 knots, it RUNS with 5-10 knots; over 10-12 Serenity wants his-her noble spirit respected, and ask to be replaced by a common wideboard for planing....
Yes, 460 cm are not a joke, but in my boat they are not a problem. But if it is too much for you and you want something more planing, but really gliding in subplaning conditions, starboard has the solution, even if I don't now if boards like the Phantom are good for your level, I hope for Roger or somebody else to come here and give their professional suggestion.
Last, yesterday a new 2009 Mistral Ventura 343, not much different form has been sold on ebay.de at 339 euro, and I was really in panic wanting to buy it even if outside Venice I cannot store a board longer than 3 mt for many reason...

COACHG
13th June 2011, 09:07 PM
Sounds like you need lessons or more TOW. I'm only a couple of Kg/s lighter then you and have sailed the Rocket 145. With the 8.5 & upper 40 to low 50 cm fin you should be planing and reaching speeds in the mid 20's mph when small ripples occur on the water with no white caps. When white caps occur with small ripples you should be able to use the 7.5 with mid to upper 40 cm fin and reach speeds in the upper 20's. When small chop occurs you should be able to use your 6.6 with a mid to low 40 cm fin and easily hit speeds in the low 30's. I would not use that board with a 6.0 as the board feels too large with that sail for me.

The above numbers are for BAF sailing not going real deep off the wind. I don't list wind speeds because it seems that those very from place to place. In other words 20 knts where I sail looks a whole lot different then 20 knts where other people sail.

Coachg

Ken
13th June 2011, 10:03 PM
ittiandro,

You have the right gear for your level of development. We all encounter points where we get frustrated with the next level of advancement, but persistence will soon move you to the next level. The Rio is a great beginning board on which you can learn all the basics, (upwind, downwind, up-hauling, tacking, jibing, planing, beach starts, water starts, footstraps, harness usage, etc.). The Tabau is an excellent second step in your progression. Assuming you still have the Rio, don't be afraid to work on all the above when you have the volume and dagger board to make it all pretty easy.

At your weight (80kg), the Tabau should be easy to up-haul with a little practice. To plane on it with your 8.5, it will take about 13 knots without pumping (11 knots with pumping). With the 7.5, add two knots. As your skills improve, you can subtract a little from the above numbers.

Stick with it and you will soon see that it is all worth while. Don't bother with the Tabau unless you see light to moderate white caps or you will just be slogging along. By the way, learning to tack and jibe, while keeping upwind on a slogging board with no daggerboard is GOOD practice. Don't rush it, It just takes time for your body's balance to adapt to the various moves necessary to windsurf.

The 7.5 and 8.5 sails are large for a beginner/novice sailor where a 6.5 or 5.5 would be easier. Those that learn on the smaller sails progress quickly to the larger sails because they want to plane. Planing on a 5 or 6 meter sail takes quite a bit of wind. This is probably where your frustration come in, but things will be better soon.

ittiandro
14th June 2011, 06:55 AM
Thank you Ken, Coachg, Windman, Joe Windsurfer, Nakaniko and others for your 2nd round of valuable comments, replies and suggestions. I’ll definitely look into the Starboard Serenity, as suggested by Nakaniko, But, oh boy ! at 257 lts volume the Serenity must be a yacht! . Deve essere una nave scuola ! Nakaniko, vedo che sei di Venezia. Salutami la Serenissima. Sono un suo antico suddito ( Bergamasco), che vive in Canadà. Il glorioso Leone di San Marco campeggia dovunque nella mia città e sono cresciuto alla sua ombra.! Peccato che quel fetente di Napoleone abbia dissolto la Repubblica di Venezia ( per poi passarla agli austriaci) . Ma pazienza, la storia non si può disfarla ! We can't undo history .
May everybody enjoy this fantastic sport and good wind to you all, wherever you are !

Ittiandro
Ittiandro

nakaniko
14th June 2011, 04:22 PM
Pai attention Ittiandro, I told you what is MY solution, but also that I hope that Roger or someone else could judge the best board for your level. This is what Ken have just done. Serenity is a fantastic idea for people who don't have problems of storing and carying such a big gondola, but is NOT a beginner board, and requires the same or even more balance that your Tabou, as it has a round hull and is only 61,5 cm in the middle. 257 litres gives perfect longitudinal balance, but not lateral, where board requires quick tacks and balanced jibes like on my 110 litres freestyle. Yes if winds in your spot are 70-80% lower than 10 knots, there's no board in the world that can give what Serenity gives, but if you can loose some speed in the lower winds for having a fully planing board, Phantom 320 could be a great solution fore having both opportunities, even if also the Phanton is not really a beginner board; but do you still have the Rio with you or not?
I think that if a lot of people would be given the opportunity to try the serenity AFTER LEARNING, we vould have in the future a lot of cruising windsurfs on the beaches like was on the 80's. But I don't want you to make a "blind jump"before you have the proper skill. At least find a place wher to try the Serenity before, and so with the more common Phantom 320.
Grazie per le parole su Venezia e la Serenissima, con anche una morosa di nome Serena non è un caso che mi sono preso il Serenity:D

Ken
14th June 2011, 09:13 PM
Nakaniko is right on with the Serenity. IT'S NOT a beginner or novice board. Possibly an intermediate, but very tricky to sail, tack and jibe. Incredibly efficient in light winds, but nothing more.

I also thought about the Phantom 320, but it is a race board that can do everything, but nothing really well. The Rio is just as good or better in light winds (sub-planing) and the Tabau is probably equal to or better at planing speeds.

Ittiandro - you have what you need. Now get on the water and practice. To learn fast, never sail on a reach for more than 20-30 seconds without a tack or jibe. The sooner you do 100 of each, the faster you master the skills. Most beginners sail on a reach until they get uncomfortable with the distance from shore and then tack back to shore. In a couple of hours, they may get in 10-15 tacks and that's it. Don't waste your time on long reaches. There will be plenty of time for that when your skills improve.

Another way to continue progressing fast is to set a goal of 10 successful tacks and 10 jibes before you allow yourself to head out on some longer reaches. Do them as fast as possible, with only a few seconds between them. Windsurfing is like snow skiing - it's all about TURNING.

nakaniko
15th June 2011, 11:25 PM
Thanks Ken. I do not completely agree that windsurfing is about turning like snow skking (but I snowboard). Eceplt from waveriding, usually windsurf is about flying over the water, not turning every time, pherephs as I think at the sport. Sure for beginners turning frequently gives a big help in learning, I agree.
even for serenity I think that the board is not a beginner board, but on the opposite, at least in the flat water of my Venice Lagoon, I don't find it absolutely tricky to turn, not so difficult to tack if your balanced and quick, a little more difficult to jibe, but far from being impossible
This to clear offf some opinions I've readin many places, that can show to riders a beautiful but almost impossible board (for intermediate and advanced). It's imho and enjoyable board!
Ps: why you keep in calling the board of Ittiandro Tabau and not Tabou? To avoid some family filter on tabou word?:cool::D

Ken
16th June 2011, 03:25 AM
Learning to sail straight away (reach) is pretty easy for beginners on the newer wider beginner boards. Tacking and then jibing become the next challenge. Most intermediate sailors are pretty inconsistent with their jibes and sometimes tacks. It's a problem that I think many windsurfers are slow to solve, thus my recommendation to do a lot of tacks and jibes.

Snowboarders don't do much turning, just straight down with some occasional sliding (over stated, but you get my point). Few snowboarders can do nice carving turns on an edge. On the other hand, most skiers do a lot of turning, but novice skiers on moderate slopes generally won't turn until they have to. Either turn or run into the trees. The more turns you do, the quicker you progress. In windsurfing, it's possible to sail for hours and only make a few turns. Not good for learning if you are a novice.

Tabou is correct. Sorry, just started with Tabau and keep repeating it.

nakaniko
16th June 2011, 04:04 AM
Learning to sail straight away (reach) is pretty easy for beginners on the newer wider beginner boards. Tacking and then jibing become the next challenge. Most intermediate sailors are pretty inconsistent with their jibes and sometimes tacks. It's a problem that I think many windsurfers are slow to solve, thus my recommendation to do a lot of tacks and jibes.
You're right, I'm an example of it:(

Snowboarders don't do much turning, just straight down with some occasional sliding (over stated, but you get my point). Few snowboarders can do nice carving turns on an edge. .
Aaaargh, you are telling the truth! I'm an expert snowboarder, a freecarving lover, hate freestyle, love too much powder. Involved now in learning www.extremecarving.com. But 90% of snowboarders after first hour wants to jump and then in the tracks their riding is simply UGLY. Ops is out of topic here...
In windsurfing, it's possible to sail for hours and only make a few turns. Not good for learning if you are a novice.
Now I'll keep in mind to avoid this, hoping to finally reach a fully planing jibe:)