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Unregistered
22nd December 2011, 02:00 AM
I am currently an int/adv windsurfer and wondering what the best option is for a lightwieght (65 kg) and light wind. I generally sail in a bay with a steady seabreeze that cosistanly blows 8-14kts with 10-12kts being avereage. I have a 10.0 sail and was initally thinking of getting a formula board however the ultrasonic seems to suit my riding style better. I was wondering with my weight, could I go with an isoinc 127 and still have a low planning threshold while having more manuverabily than the ultrasonic with the 10.0?

Jean-Marc
22nd December 2011, 05:25 PM
It all depends on what type of cruising you want to do.

Formula's forte is upwind/downwind angle.
UltraSonic's forte is like a softened and easy-going/forgiving Formula in rough conditions.
Both are big as compared to an iSonic 127 for a light weight when it gets windy and choppy.

Being 65 kg myself, I've found no difference in low planning threshold (= 7 knots wind + active pumping) between an iSonic 127 and the UltraSonic, both with 55 cm fin + Reflex II 11.0 m2. A Formula is a bit better, i.e., starts planing at 6 knots of wind (70 cm fin + Code Red 2 11 m2 sail).

Whats is your current 10 m2 sail + board + fin combo? Do you have smaller sails and boards if wind blows above 12-14 knots?

How would you rate your pumping skills ? If intermediate, better take an UltraSonic. If advanced, an iSonic 127 might be good enough.

Cheers !

JM

nakaniko
22nd December 2011, 09:11 PM
Otherwise, or in addiction: Starboard Serenity.
No planing, so no planing threshold to worry about, but flying sensation from 5-6 knots.
10 mq is perfect, with lower wind imho better a smaller sail.
Now I cannot imagine to live without my Seren(ity) (-board)

Unregistered
23rd December 2011, 03:39 AM
Thanks for the quick reply. My current setup is a bic techno 148 and Maui 8.0 sail which works when the wind is 12-14 knots. The 10.0 is a Maui Tr7 and I am looking for the best board for this sail when the wind is lighter. Luckly both places I sail have very little chop to deal with and my skills are more towards the intermediate level getting around all of my gybes and blasting around.

sergio k
23rd December 2011, 07:21 AM
Thanks for the quick reply. My current setup is a bic techno 148 and Maui 8.0 sail which works when the wind is 12-14 knots. The 10.0 is a Maui Tr7 and I am looking for the best board for this sail when the wind is lighter. Luckly both places I sail have very little chop to deal with and my skills are more towards the intermediate level getting around all of my gybes and blasting around.

I'm your weight, I live in mostly light wind area and have 16 or so years of experience...
Unless you tried and really hate newer formula boards, formula is your best bet for yearly planning
and overall crusing in the light wind with 10m2 race sail, Isonic 127 is too small and for your size best
suited with 9 m2 max, and with utrasonic you will gane comfort using bigger sail, but comparing
to i127 board will be too bulky and comparing to formula it will not plane as early and sail at narrow angle comparing to upwind/downwind potencial of formula. I never understood this,
you can buy a Ferrari(formula) or you can buy a Cadilac(Utrasonic) and in windsurfig world they both cost the same, yet people due to some crazy marketing still willing to by a Cadi... If you were 120+kg and
wanted to participate in slalom event maybe Ultrasonic ..

COACHG
23rd December 2011, 11:27 AM
Sergio makes a good point for light wind planing even if he uses a bad analogy. When people think of sports cars they think small and nimble, far from a formula. I think a better automobile analogy for formula would be a drag race car. Lightning quick get off, great acceleration, harsh ride & can’t turn worth a @#$&

But lets face facts here, you are not going to have any kind of manuverability with a 10.0 TR7 so you probably would be better off with a formula.

Coachg

Jean-Marc
23rd December 2011, 02:20 PM
Yes, I agree that if you want to plane the earliest, a Formula is king, no question.

However, there are other elements that need to be puit into the equation. Do you intend to keep the Bic Techno 148 or do you want to replace that board with either a Formula, UltraSonic or iSonic 127 with a 8.0 + 10.0 m2 sails quiver ?

1) If you want to keep the Bic Techno 148 with your 8.0 sail, a Formula will plane earlier, point higher upwind and downwind than an UltraSonic with a 10.0 sail. However, the UltraSonic would be easier under your feets in choppy water, when jibing or when back and forth reaching. If you cannot waterstart your 10.0 sail yet, both will be a more stable platform (more width with more volume overall than an iSonic 127) when you'll uphaul your sail out of water. The learning curve will be easier and faster with an UltraSonic than that with a Formula for a skilled intermediate, no question.

2) If you want to replace your Bic Techno 148, better take an iSonic 127 for your light weight because a Formula or an UltraSonic would be way too large and bulky with your 8.0 sail in solid winds. Even the iSonic 127 would be the limit with an 8.0 sail (an iSonic 117 wide would be perfect with 8.0 + 10.0 for a 65 kg skilled expert) but given your intermediate skills and the fact that your area is not too choppy when it really blows, I surmise that you'll use 80% of your time the 10.0 sail in 7-12 knots wind range whereas you'll use the 8.0 sail 20% of your time in 12-18 knots wind range, so the iSonic 127 would match that usage perfectly.

In comparison to your current Techno 148 (75 cm width), the iSonic 127 would clearly feel underfoot like a 1 size larger board, the UltraSonic would feel like a 2 sizes larger board and the Formula would feel like a 3 sizes larger board (especially at the tail).

Cheers !

JM

Ken
24th December 2011, 02:49 AM
My take on this. If you are committed to using the 10.0 sail for your 8-14 knot sailing, it will work best on either the formula or hypersonic. It's too big for the iSonic, especially with your weight and size. The 10.0 is even a little larger than necessary for a 66kg sailor on the two big boards, but it will keep you going in the lulls and should give you an exciting ride if you are reaching most of the time.

I have a F160 and an iS111 and the two work well for me without a gap for freeriding. I weight 77kg. I use my 11.0 and 9.2 on the formula (8-15) knots and then 8.4, 7.6 and 6.6 on the iSonic (12-20 knots). All Maui Sails TR race sails.

My recommendation is the ultrasonic although I have never sailed one.

Unregistered
24th December 2011, 11:48 PM
I appreciate everybody's input on the matter. I think I will look for a used Formula to try first since that is what everybody is using where I sail and will give me the lowest planning threshold.. As my skills improve I will then think about replacing the techno with a lower volume board for days when I would use the 8.0. If the formula doesn't work for me then at that point I would try the ultrasonic.

sergio k
26th December 2011, 04:00 AM
Coachg, I stand by my analogy... There's nothing as fast on light wind as FW, plus I think it can pull a turn just fine...

COACHG
28th December 2011, 08:43 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRUK_gDNdgY

It would appear you are correct, nothing is as fast on light wind as FW, but apparently the Cadi is faster.

Coachg

joe_windsurfer
29th December 2011, 06:39 PM
my budget is not very large for my windsurf toys
i did manage to purchase a used TR-4 10-oh
as a heavyweight it does not plane as early for me as for you lightweights :-)

in terms of early planing there are more options now than ever
with my budget i purchased an old Fanatic Ultra CAT longboard
it planes up quick, but it obviously not as light n lively as boards discussed here

the Ultra Sonics and JPSL seem to be filling that void between formula and the smaller boards
check the vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=xqwyKCjBoiE
also Tinho Dornellas of calema has a custom board that planes up early
http://www.calema.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=608
AND there is the new Phantom 377
http://vimeo.com/28880323
even the Phantom 320 is a neat cool machine

my motto - just get on the water and have fun - whether planing or not
that is where a longboard helps - can putz or schlogg about and still smile :)

COACHG
29th December 2011, 10:13 PM
my motto - just get on the water and have fun - whether planing or not
that is where a longboard helps - can putz or schlogg about and still smile :)

I like your motto. :) You can also add light wind freestyle to your list. It's great when your lake is too small to explore with a longboard.

Coachg

Pelegrin
5th January 2012, 08:44 PM
There is still a lot fun in lightwind conditions without using Formula-equipment. I sail JP SLW 154 with sails between 5.5 and 9.0. The SLW is fairly like the Ultrasonic. The SLW has a great pontential and works perfectly well with all these sail sizes. If You like reaching in 20-27 knots it is fantastic. If You like going upwind in 15-21 knots it is fantastic. If you like going downwind it is fantastic and not at all scary. You will not dip the nose! Gybing is easy and the footstance will never get Your feet tired.

I have also an Isonic 127 since this autumn and the feeling is similar to the SLW. This is also a great board but perhaps 10.0 is a rather big sail on this board with You weight...?

Freesurfer
9th January 2012, 10:39 AM
How about the iSonic 117 Wide? Is a 10 m2 sail too big for that board!?

BelSkorpio
13th January 2012, 12:19 AM
I've been following this thread for some while now and it interests me too, although I don't want to comment nor propose anything myself because I find that I'm too far off with my weight of 87kg versus the weight of the 65kg weighing thread initiator.

It think it would be nice if we could get the reaction of a light weight US owner, too see what he has to say about it.

I consider the US a little bit as the (ultra) light wind board for the middle to heavy weight rider, i.e. 80+ kg, but I could be wrong. Please feel free to comment ...

BelSkorpio
13th January 2012, 12:22 AM
Oops, sorry Jean-Marc, I must have missed your response. :)

Jean-Marc
13th January 2012, 02:35 PM
How about the iSonic 117 Wide? Is a 10 m2 sail too big for that board!?

If you don't want a Formula (lowest planing threshold, highest upwind/downwind angle), then the most important question in selecting the best board + sail combo is what's your weight and skills?
- For a skilled 65 kg rider, the iSonic 117 Wide is perfect with 8.0 + 10.0 sail quiver.
- For a 85 kg rider, the 117 Wide is too small with 10.0 sail: better get the iSonic 127 to be more efficient in low wind range.
- For a 105 kg rider, there is no doubt, better get the Ultrasonic with 9.0-11.0 sail range. If racing under PWA rules, stick to the iSonic 137 which is PWA-compliant.

Cheers !

JM

Jean-Marc
13th January 2012, 03:09 PM
There is still a lot fun in lightwind conditions without using Formula-equipment. I sail JP SLW 154 with sails between 5.5 and 9.0. The SLW is fairly like the Ultrasonic. The SLW has a great pontential and works perfectly well with all these sail sizes. If You like reaching in 20-27 knots it is fantastic. If You like going upwind in 15-21 knots it is fantastic. If you like going downwind it is fantastic and not at all scary.

Fantastic ? Really ? This is unrealistic for a 65 kg rider. The Ultrasonic is an absolute horror with a 5.5 sail in 20-27 knots for a 65 kg rider: way too wide! Time to get real, sorry about that...

I have also an Isonic 127 since this autumn and the feeling is similar to the SLW. This is also a great board but perhaps 10.0 is a rather big sail on this board with You weight...?

If I'm correct, you weight 78 kg. This is a different story as compared to a 65 kg weight rider.

Again, I've riden the iSonic 127 with my 11 m2 sail and I've found there is no control problems in low/high wind range (i.e., 7-12 knots of wind). I'm sure a 10.0 sail will fit the bill as well. However, things start to get scary in higher wind range with say an 8.0-8.5 sail. Control problems will emerge when the board is too wide, too bulky underfoot with vatsly unnecessary balast volume. A 65 kg light weight rider simply has not enough weight to keep control of a +85 cm wide board in higher wind range because of the associated chop/swell building up. We simply have not enough leverage to keep the hammer down when the board starts to fly or tailwalk when chop hopping in higher wind. If you do, you'll need superior skills to keep da big Bertha under control in rough water at high speed, no question...

Therefore, an iSonic 127 is a good choice with a 10-11 m2 sail for a 65 kg rider as a 1 board + 1 sail quiver for light wind conditions (i.e., 7-12 knots of wind).

If you're looking for a 1 board + 2 sails quiver solution for a skilled 65 kg rider, I would rather choose the iSonic 117 wide with 8.x + 10.x sails quiver.

If weighting 78 or 87 kg, this is again a different story...

Cheers !

JM

BelSkorpio
14th January 2012, 12:30 AM
Good replies, Jean-Marc.

Pelegrin
15th January 2012, 10:56 PM
Headline - LIGHTWIND. If we can talk in m/s it is easyer for me.

How well does JP SLW work in different lightwind conditions with me, 78 kg?

5 m/s - SLW plans and works great with 9.0
5-6 m/s - SLW plans and works great with 7.5
7-8 m/s - SLW plans and works great with 6.5
8-10 m/s - SLW plans and works great with 5.5

Off course You can use bigger sails up to 10 m/s but if You want a pleasant ride I mean that it is possible to sail a wide board with smaller sails. As an example I hade 27 knots with SLW and an old non camberad 6.5 sail.

If we are talking about Formula sails, 10-12, - Why dot we talk about Formula boards? I thought we were talking about lightwind using hybrid boards or wide slalomboards. After some years with SLW I can not see the problems using smaller sails in higher windrange (within lightwind conditions)!

COACHG
15th January 2012, 11:58 PM
You guys must be sailing in some awfully flat water with super steady winds. I weigh 75 kg & at 10 ms I might be able to hold down a 110 liter board if the water was flat but I would more likely be on an 85-96 liter board jumping & practicing forwards.

Coachg

Pelegrin
16th January 2012, 12:47 AM
Then we are there again! What was the headline - LIGTHTWIND!

I just showed that it is possible to use one board in different wind conditions. If You have just one 110 or just one 85-96 You will still not be planning in 6-7 m/s. The headline was not about wich board is the best one in 10 m/s. I could pass the question back - How well does Your 110 do in lightwind compered to SLW or Isonic 127? (Forget it. It was a silly question).

COACHG
16th January 2012, 10:38 AM
Pelegrin,

You didn't show anything. You wrote down some numbers that we are expected to believe. I sail in the San Francisco Bay & Delta in northern CA, as well as small & large lakes. My point was that it was not possible to sail a 160+ liter freeride board in 10 ms and be great unless you weigh upwards of 90+ kg. To be able to use one board in the conditions you are describing and feel great I would have to be on very flat water.

Today, 8-9 ms on a small lake and I had my hands full with 6.6 & Futura 133. Had to go down to 110 Fanatic Hawk to feel great. If the UCD sailing team wasn't out practicing I probably could have stayed with the 133 but their wakes made it too hard to keep the board down at my weight.

What I'm saying is your JP may work great for you where you sail all the way up to 10 ms as a one board solution, but it is limited to a flat water location such as yours. Those of us that sail in larger bodies of water can not hope to use your JP above 8 ms and feel great, that becomes survival sailing.

Coachg

joe_windsurfer
16th January 2012, 04:51 PM
at 100 kilos i have sailed an AHD FF 160/79 cm wide in 10 m/s or about 20 knot winds on the St Lawrence with a 7-oh. It is NOT ideal , but - do-able. Also prefer to go down to a smaller , narrower board in those winds. Chop here is usually not that bad and is why one can do that. { did it once with an 8-oh cambered sail, butt that was crazee}

For me, i have given up trying to use the shortboard on the lake #$%^&*( Any interference from boats and water vehicles is very annoying and difficult. ONLY use the longboard on the lake now - for lulls and traffic "noise" ^&*()

Pelegrin
16th January 2012, 11:01 PM
I thought I tryed to show my experience but as I understand there is always someone who knows better.

I am not sailing off shore. I sail at sea but in an area of about 2 x 1.5 NM sorounded by islands and beleive it or not - the SLW works in 10 m/s with 6.5 or 5.5. If Formula-boards can make it why should not SLW make it? I have done it, it works and I can not see why I have to be told that it does not work?

We are still off the LIGHTWIND-discussion. Perhaps we could make a definition. Is 4-8 m/s better? To plan in 4 m/s you need a Formula-sail to the SLW but between 5 and 8 m/s it works perfect AND You can use sails between 6.5 to 9.0.

BelSkorpio
17th January 2012, 12:23 AM
No reason to get upset.
The title of the unregistered thread initiator of 65kg was "lightweight AND lightwind".
It's the combination of these 2 factors that are important in this thread.

I think it remains an interesting topic.
Does a light weight rider need a Formula or something similar (like US or SLW) ?
Is it the best option ?
My take on this is that he can use it for Formula contests where you really need to sail very sharp, but in other conditions probably there are better options.

Pelegrin
17th January 2012, 12:54 AM
BelSkorpio - It was not meant for You. It was a replye for saying I did not show anything. I am used to it. There is always windsurfers telling you that wide boards do not work in higher lightwinds. Anyway - the trend is clear - You see more of those wide boards on the water and the reason is that windsurfers want to keep on planing. You can now chose among several wide boards.

Joe_Windsurfer - My friend use a AHD FF about 145 l and we have been freeriding some years together. The SLW plans earlier and goes higher upwind but the top-speed is about the same. In non-planing conditions the AHD is much better upwind. There is some tenique going upwind non-planing with real wide boards.

Unregistered
19th January 2012, 03:02 PM
I am the thread starter and I recently purchased a used 2006 Formula board. I went with an older board because the tail is narrower than the recent models while still being 100cm wide. I have had 2 sessions on the board with average conditions at my sailing site. (8-10kts no white caps or chop). At my skill level I was able to plane 80-90 percent of the time with the 10.0 sail. I find the formula board not difficult to sail and is much easier to stay upwind with the light onshore wind. Up hauling the 10 is a challenge even using an ez up haul. However, I think the width and volume of the board help make this a little easier. I have completed a few jibes and again I think the volume of the board really helps when I fall off the plane to provide stability when handling the larger sail. So far the formula board has accomplished what I want to do.

troll
1st February 2012, 02:17 AM
I am the thread starter and I recently purchased a used 2006 Formula board. I went with an older board because the tail is narrower than the recent models while still being 100cm wide. I have had 2 sessions on the board with average conditions at my sailing site. (8-10kts no white caps or chop). At my skill level I was able to plane 80-90 percent of the time with the 10.0 sail. I find the formula board not difficult to sail and is much easier to stay upwind with the light onshore wind. Up hauling the 10 is a challenge even using an ez up haul. However, I think the width and volume of the board help make this a little easier. I have completed a few jibes and again I think the volume of the board really helps when I fall off the plane to provide stability when handling the larger sail. So far the formula board has accomplished what I want to do.

That's great - I've also had a lot of satisfaction with my foray into formula. The uphauling does suck, but you learn not to drop your sail pretty fast. For me, the key with uphauling is to do it slowly and use the legs as much as possible. I've been ok using the 11.0 and 12.0.

Jean-Marc
1st February 2012, 06:49 AM
Agree on uphauling: keep your back as straight and upright as possible and bent your knees. A home-made "easy uphaul" (a 50-80 cm long rope with 3 loops so you can hook in with your harness) does make the uphauling job a lot easier and nicer to your back.

Cheers !

JM

Ken
1st February 2012, 04:58 PM
Uphauling with an "easy uphaul" is a no brainer. However, sail size is only one factor with uphauling. While I can uphaul an 11.0 without too much stress in wind under 10 knots, if the wind is over 15, it's a killer.

In my 28 years of windsurfing and racing, twice I had to be rescued because the wind jumped from 10 to 20+ knots as fronts rolled in. Everyone was on big sails and all got flattened. No one could water start or uphaul. This was in the early days of formula and on a longboard some years before that.