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f2sunset
10th March 2012, 10:35 AM
Hello I'm George. I would appreciate any suggestions since I'm looking for a board with volume and a daggerboard. I have a 132lt carbon freeride 250x69 cm with 7.0 twin cam for light wind days.Since I don't want to buy a large-wide freerace was wondering which would be the best for early planning. Starboard rio S 269x76 180lt , F2 xanthos 280x72 160lt or jp funster 258x80 160lt. I'm only interested in early planning.Do you think I would go with more width or the F2 would be better because of less drag? I can plane earlier with an x-cite ride 130lt than with x-cite ride 145 (think because is narrower and lighter??).I have seen from the forums that others go more width and others with more waterline and less drag, I'm confused!Where I windsurf is mainly light wind up to 12 knots with gusts so I will be using the gust to get in plane (not good for longboards I guess since they plane gradually) I weigh 72kg (158lb) and I can get into plane at about a gust of 10-12 knots with my 130lt and 7.0 sail..Do you think that I could plane earlier with these boards compared to my 130lt freeride?Could use the daggerboard for non planning and my girfriend.
Waiting for your help , thanks!

Unregistered
10th March 2012, 11:04 AM
it seems formula boards are considered the "earliest planers"
we all know about their width, short length, long fins and cost
also, the earliest planing is achieved on these boards with "pumping"
apparently they are quoted as having the possibility of planing around 7-8 knots
again, this has to be with pumping

longboards can plane fairly early without pumping, but not until around 12 knots
under 12 knots in "gusty" unsteady winds they are pleasure to sail as they glide through lulls

160 liter freeride wide board will plane early for heavyweight
130 liter freeride wide board will plane even earlier for lighter rider like yourself

so, can you get on a plane earlier than 10 knots ??

maybe - butt NOT worth the effort NOR the $$$
how come we are never satisfied and always want more ? :-)
i include myself in that question :-)

Unregistered
10th March 2012, 11:10 AM
www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/EarlyPlaning.pdf

Roger
10th March 2012, 01:21 PM
I'm puzzled.... why do you want a daggerboard/centerboard on your early planing board?
Wide boards (85 cm -101 cm wide) and larger sails (8.5m-10.0m free race sails with plenty of
draft depth to give maximum light wind (< 10 knots) power are the only boards that truly "plane"
in < 12 knots of wind.
What can you do with a centerboard/daggerboard that you cannot do on a wide short board?
If the winds are < 7 knots, yes, a longbooard or a wider transitional board will be faster, point higher
(if you do extreme things like railing, moving the mast foot fully forward, etc.) and might be a little easier to sail.
Below 7 knots, you are just cruising.....regardless of the type/width of the board and sail size.
You can take this to the extreme and get a Serenity with a 7.5-8.5 m2 sail and go by virtually everyone
in < 7 knots.
But in the 8-12 knot range, with an 8.5 m2 rig (larger 8.5-10.0 for heavier sailors >90 Kg.) a wide 90-101 cm formula or wide slalom board is the only board that will truly plane.
By railing the wide board, you can still get back upwind (albeit a little more slowly) than a longboard/transitional board with a centerboard/daggerboard.
Some of the new wider transitonal boards like the Rio M almost fill this gap (8-12 knots planing) but they are not wide or light enough to "pop loose onto a plane" with a couple of pumps like the very wide short planing flat formula and wide slalom boards.
About the best board for these conditons is the Ultrasonic 147 with a large (=> 8.5 m2) rig.
Hope this helps,
Roger
P.S. Your girlfriend will love sailing a wider board (she will fall off a whole lot less often) and she can be taught
to tip the upwind rail down to go upwind very easily.
Standing slightly off center to the upwind side will cant the board so that it sails upwind on the rocker shaped into the bottom of the board.
It's not intuitive, specially for sailors who have learned on a narrow tippy board, but on the wider board it's very easy to show them and explain how it works. Once they know this, they are pretty much "done with daggerboards"forever.

f2sunset
10th March 2012, 04:17 PM
Thanks for the response guys! Roger I just wanted to ask you about a comment you had made in another thread for early planning that a starboard start would plane earlier than a formula board.This really impressed me but now I'm confused with comments you made.The widest board I have ever tried is a jp slalom 130 lt around 82cm wide.It was planning the whole time when others where with larger boards and 9 and larger sails.What I didn't like was the far out position of straps.No comfort at all for me. I have never tried any other wide board hence when I learned windsurfing nearly 20 years ago I had a tiga longboard so I don't know anything about newer wide boards.I thought considering your comment tha I could plane as early with a starboard rio for example and I could lose in performance. I say for daggerboard to teach friends and upwind performance when not planning. I understand that for early planning you need width and low weight as I understand? Since I already have 3 boards I would prefer buying a fun board lets say than another large freeride since I already have the 130lt. Is there any board with dagger to do that or I will lose my money?

Thanks again!

f2sunset
10th March 2012, 04:32 PM
Thanks also unregistered guest. When you write about freeride board of 130 and 160 lts you mean that I would plane earlier in the 130 than the 160?thanks for guycribb file (already seen it,very helpfull). You are correct,we are never satisfied but when going down to the beach and the conditions are marginal I always wish I could go with a board that could plane or anyway have fun. Wouldn't go with serenity or with larger sails or large fins. I had larger sails up to 8.5 and I found out that with the Naish 7.0 twin cam I have now(rigs on rdm 430) because its very light and compact I can almost do as well in the low end but don't have to change sail if the wind picks up. Very easy to uphaul as well. I have also seen a video in you tube with a bic nova 180 and 8.0 rig that planes in extremely low wind and this is a starter board.Thats why I was wondering. I want to avoid formulas and large freewide boards and go with a board like the rio if its possible.Has anyone compared such boards with ultrasonic or large futuras for example in early planning?

ZedZdeD
12th March 2012, 08:51 PM
maybe if your search for an early planning board, what would really provide you with an interesting complement to your short boards is a hybrid raceboard (Starboard 295, Starboard 320, Neil Pryde RS-One, Neil Pryde RS-X)

II bought a Phantom 320 (I even have 2 now), and really, I never made a better use of my money. Before that in light wind I was wasting too many afternoons waiting for three times 10 seconds of planning, and suffering absolutely non interesting navigation when non planning on a board made only for planning conditions, now I rediscover windurfing, I sail 10 times more often, and always with great pleasure, on a technical interesting challengingn board, planning or not

-> planning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3EtB34NW1w

-> or not
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97Cb4guu6w0&feature=channel

kind regards

f2sunset
29th March 2012, 02:01 PM
Thanks a lot ZedZdeD.Just saw your post. I know what you mean about the afternoons of 10'' planning! I really like the phantom 320 but its out of my reach,very expensive.I'm not sure that I can find a used one since no one ever sells such boards.I can maybe find a bic techno od used or new in a nice price.What do you think about these boards?

Thanks a lot!!

tonymatta
2nd April 2012, 08:21 AM
I have sailed the Phantom 295 and 320 as well as techno 293 OD.
The technos are an older design, not so refined but still do a remarkably good job.
The phantoms have better fin and centreboard and other inovative features.
Both techno and phantom would be better for performance than any of the other beginer boards you mentioned earlier.

f2sunset
2nd April 2012, 09:06 PM
I have sailed the Phantom 295 and 320 as well as techno 293 OD.
The technos are an older design, not so refined but still do a remarkably good job.
The phantoms have better fin and centreboard and other inovative features.
Both techno and phantom would be better for performance than any of the other beginer boards you mentioned earlier.


Thanks Tony.Since I have no experience in such boards do they perform in the lower end too??Most (including Roger) suggest I should go with a wide slalom board which I don't like as once I get onto plane it feels like a very large board.I prefer narrower boards.Would the phantom 295 plane early? Reading the specs I prefer the 295 over the 320.

Roger
3rd April 2012, 01:36 AM
Hi f2sunset,
OK, Do you really want to plane in < 11 knots of wind?
No narrow board (< 85 cm wide) that I know of will really get up
off the rockerline and plane on the wide but short planing surface
back under the footstraps like a wide shortboard.
The physics and hydrodynamics simply do not support this.
Longer/narrower planing surfaces produce significantly more drag, and
drag will keep you from planing.
The trick to very early planing is to pump both the board and the big long fin
to get the board up on top of the water and pre-planing along on the short
wide planing surfaces behind the rocker transition.
Is this pretty physical... you bet, but if you want to plane early, you have
no choice. After about 10.0 m2 there are no really low wind oriented sails.
The bigger sails are mostly multi cambered race sails (formula racing) that
are heavy, but have a huge range of use, but this really wide range of use
somewhat limits the amount of draft which has always been my key to very
early planing.
Light weight, huge draft rigs in the 8.5-9.5 range will get you going about as early
as it's possible.
The Phantoms etc are not wide shortboards, they are wider long boards.
But not wide enough, and with a very different rockerline.
Not the same as a Formula.....2001-2003 Start....Ultrasonic 147....Apollo.
Hope this helps,
Roger

f2sunset
3rd April 2012, 12:07 PM
Hi f2sunset,
OK, Do you really want to plane in < 11 knots of wind?
No narrow board (< 85 cm wide) that I know of will really get up
off the rockerline and plane on the wide but short planing surface
back under the footstraps like a wide shortboard.
The physics and hydrodynamics simply do not support this.
Longer/narrower planing surfaces produce significantly more drag, and
drag will keep you from planing.
The trick to very early planing is to pump both the board and the big long fin
to get the board up on top of the water and pre-planing along on the short
wide planing surfaces behind the rocker transition.
Is this pretty physical... you bet, but if you want to plane early, you have
no choice. After about 10.0 m2 there are no really low wind oriented sails.
The bigger sails are mostly multi cambered race sails (formula racing) that
are heavy, but have a huge range of use, but this really wide range of use
somewhat limits the amount of draft which has always been my key to very
early planing.
Light weight, huge draft rigs in the 8.5-9.5 range will get you going about as early
as it's possible.
The Phantoms etc are not wide shortboards, they are wider long boards.
But not wide enough, and with a very different rockerline.
Not the same as a Formula.....2001-2003 Start....Ultrasonic 147....Apollo.
Hope this helps,
Roger

Thanks Roger. It seems I'll have to sail more on wide boards to get used to them as I like more my 69cm wide 130 lt for early planning. I also remember planning very early with a go 145 80 cm wide(older model). I have seen how ever tha Lorch birds that are narrower boards plane earlier than JP superlightwind and ultrasonic in tests and compensate the narrow body by the longer waterline(their claim). Has anyone tried one?The 149 lt is 74cm wide!

Ken
3rd April 2012, 04:07 PM
f2sunset,

While the Lorch Birds look like early planing boards (and I am sure they are), the Ultrasonic no doubt will plane earlier.

Comparing the small 149 Bird to the US 147. The US is 19 cm wider, .2 kg lighter and will carry a fin 10 cm longer. I agree with Roger, length is a "drag".

If you go to the two larger Birds, 164 & 179, they get wider 80cm and 88cm (Ultrasonic 93cm) but they get heavier and longer too. At some point, more volume (and weight) only hinders early planing, unless you are a heavy weight sailor.

If you like your 69 cm wide and 130 liters for early planing, you haven't really experienced early planing.

For an sailor in the 75 to 85 kg weight range, I would guess the US will plane earlier than any of the Birds.

For early planing on any board, good pumping skills is critical. If I was on my formula board and a 9.2 sail in a steady 8-10 knots (a few small white caps begin to appear), I would never plane if I didn't pump, but three good full body pumps (legs too against the fin) and the board will be moving at 16-20 knots of board speed within 5-10 seconds. I weigh 77 kg, I also have an 11.0 sail and with it, the same will happen in 1-2 knots less wind.

f2sunset
3rd April 2012, 07:40 PM
Hi Ken , thanks for the post. The only experience I have from wide boards is with a jp slalom 82cm . Planed very early and really fast but felt like I was in a rocket. Too fast compared to wind strength and always felt that the board would fly over water. I'm 72kg. I find narrower boards more comfortable and I also prefer the easy handling of my 7.0 twin cam , I had a 8.2 twin cam and sold it , it felt too big and not much difference in early planning. Where I sail most of the time the wind never gets over 12 knots. There are RS:X with 9.5 sails and lots of guys with formulas and wide slalom boards with sails >9. I really don't see much difference in early planning compared to them to go to such big gear and when the wind drops no one planes but still the RS:X go faster with dagger down while we are stuck on water. Check this out.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=52zc6eb819c&feature=related

Really light wind no white caps and when not planning still going really fast hooked in and front straps. Maybe the bat wings do the work providing a wide tail compared to overall width of the board. What about the bat wings on the phantom 295? Has the same tail width as 80cm wide boards.
No one has such boards here so no way I can test one.

Ken
4th April 2012, 05:29 PM
f2sunset,

I understand your situation and since you only weigh 72 kg, you don't need the really big stuff.

Any longboard with a dagger will be faster in light winds than the wide boards, but once a wide board begins to plane, they blow by the longboards at all points of sail. I raced longboards with sails up to 10.6 meters for almost 20 years and then converted to formula. However, I rarely freesailed the longboard(s) because I had more fun on 130-150 liter slalom/freeride boards with sails up to 9.2 meters.

What you do depends on two things.

1. Your general conditions and what you want to achieve. If the winds are generally under 12 knots, do you want to maximize planing or do you just want to cruse around and plane when the wind goes over 10 knots?

2. Your skills at the moment and how much time you will spend windsurfing. If you sail often, then your skills will improve relatively fast and you will become accustomed to the higher speeds and will most likely want to maximize your planing time.

Wide boards and big sails feel awkward at first, but when you get comfortable and don't drop your sail very often, then cruising around on 9 meter sail on a wide board feels no different than a 7 meter on a 130 liter board.

f2sunset
5th April 2012, 12:24 PM
f2sunset,

I understand your situation and since you only weigh 72 kg, you don't need the really big stuff.

Any longboard with a dagger will be faster in light winds than the wide boards, but once a wide board begins to plane, they blow by the longboards at all points of sail. I raced longboards with sails up to 10.6 meters for almost 20 years and then converted to formula. However, I rarely freesailed the longboard(s) because I had more fun on 130-150 liter slalom/freeride boards with sails up to 9.2 meters.

What you do depends on two things.

1. Your general conditions and what you want to achieve. If the winds are generally under 12 knots, do you want to maximize planing or do you just want to cruse around and plane when the wind goes over 10 knots?

2. Your skills at the moment and how much time you will spend windsurfing. If you sail often, then your skills will improve relatively fast and you will become accustomed to the higher speeds and will most likely want to maximize your planing time.

Wide boards and big sails feel awkward at first, but when you get comfortable and don't drop your sail very often, then cruising around on 9 meter sail on a wide board feels no different than a 7 meter on a 130 liter board.

Thanks Ken.
My level is harness footstraps carving gybes down to 92 lt board.No wave or freestyle sailing. Maybe I'll have the chance to get some time on wide boards to see for myself!
Anyway when you can't really test all these boards maybe you get carried away by marketing. So many boards sails and specs!

Ken
5th April 2012, 02:37 PM
Some windsurfers just don't like the big boards and sails (cost can be an issue), even though they would get more planing time. It's an individual thing. I would rather be planing on my formula board in 6-12 knots rather than sitting at home or on the beach waiting for more wind. Some will venture out on their intermediate size boards and sails and slog, plane, slog, slog, plane, etc

And yes, the range of equipment options is mind boggling. I actually think it makes it more difficult for beginners and intermediates to get started because it's so difficult to know what will be best for them.

When I started in 1984, there were a half dozen long boards to choose from and all were similar in design and performance. After mastering the long board, then there were a half dozen "transition" boards where one could still uphaul and learn the basics of the short board. Then there were a few small board options after that. It was pretty hard to make a mistake in a board selection other than trying something too small too soon.

You may be better off staying with your gear for a while longer and then decide what to do. The Futura 141 may be a good option if you don't want to go to the really big stuff, but it's a little close to your 130 liter board. A good combination for your size would be the 141 and then something around 100 - 110 liters.

I jump from my formula board down to an iSonic 111. The sails I use are - formula board 11.0, 9.2 and sometimes 8.4. Then my iS with 8.4, 7.6, 6.6. Next is my bump and jump 105 board with 6.6, 6.0, 5.2, and 4.5.

f2sunset
6th April 2012, 03:39 PM
Thanks ken.One more question guys. I was also told that I should try a bigger fin , that 130 lt board for my 72kg and 7.0 sail is enough and should not go for larger and wider(the answer from jp). Any comments?. I have a 43cm powerbox freeride. Would a bigger fin make any difference and what size? 48?

Roger
6th April 2012, 05:05 PM
Ummm..... jp) who? told you that a 130 ltr <85 cm wide board is enough to plane in < 12 knots?
Was that Jason Polakow himself?
You can stay with your 130 liter and you can "COMPLAIN" that you are not planing, or you can go with something < 90 cm wide and be ploaning on perhaps an 8.5 m2.
That's the physics here.
Yes, bigger fin will help you to plane a knot or two lower in the wind spectrum, but not a 48 cm.
Put a 60 cm on your 130 liter and you would plane earlier, but you would not like what it does when
your board gets up to it's full speed potential.
Your board is simply too narrow to work well with a => 60 cm fin.
So, the choice is yours.... wider board larger sail or not planing.
Roger

f2sunset
7th April 2012, 09:12 AM
I don't know Roger who answered from jp but thats what he told me . He said that wider boards would get me to plane sooner but once they planned would feel very large boards for my weight and maybe the x-cite ride 134 would be better for me. Anyway I will have the chance tomorrow of borrowing a larger fin and have some turns with a jp slalom board 82cm and an isonic 85cm so I'll tell you how it feels if you don't mind.
Thanks for the advise for the fin.

You also have to consider that of course I'm not so experienced as other guys here and have not tested so many boards so I have lots of questions:)

Pelegrin
24th April 2012, 05:02 PM
I agree with Roger. From my own experience I really love wider boards with their easy planning. You do not always even have to use a huge sail. I mostly have nice rides with 7.6 to JP SLW or isonic 127. JP SLW goes planning with 7.6 in 5-6 m/s and there is no big difference using a 9.0.

kapten k
25th April 2012, 10:45 PM
Try formula gear if you live in a 12knot area!! or @ 72kg i would i would get a 85cm wide slalom or freerace board with a 9.0 maybe, even if you can plane as early with a fuller 7.5 sail, you have no power to go upwind, which is boring if you have to struggle to get back.