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Unregistered
4th June 2012, 11:56 PM
Why are board volumes decided by sail range and not body weight? Can I use a carve 131 with 5.3 - 7.5 at 150 lbs? I would like the extra volume for uphauling in slop and safety in dead zones with offshore winds on freshwater, but it seems everyone is pushing me towards lower volume.

Roger
5th June 2012, 02:11 AM
Unreg.
You can certainly sail a Carve 131 with your sails at your weight.
It would seem that for your 150 Lbs./68 kg. body weight you could easily uphaul a
100 liter board, and a 100 liter board would seem much more suitable with a 5.3 m2 rig
in 20+ knots of wind as the surface conditions in 20+ knots would be far too rough for
your body weight on a Carve 131.
With your 7.5 rig, in 12-15 knots, the Carve 131 would be pretty good, but still a bit more
volume than you need to uphaul.
Perhaps you need to examine your uphauling skills a bit and see it you can find ways to
uphaul sucessfully in more sloppy conditions.
The Carve 101 would seem to have plenty of volume for you to slog back to shore and get through
the dead zones in almost no wind.
You would not be planing on either board, so the additional volume will not help much.
Additional width will however get you planing a bit earlier and certainly help with stability
while uphauling.
Roger

Unreg Reg
20th June 2012, 11:26 AM
Amazing to me that manufacturers still quote this nonesense about sail range with no mention of weight !!
(Mind you when they cant measure the volume of boards properly it shouldn`t be surprising)

Any board asked to carry a load of 100kg will never have same sail range when carrying 60kg.. It simply cant...

A heavier sailor will not be able to carry as big sail on a given board but will be able to use the board with smaller rigs... A 100k sailor can knock roughly (roughly) 1 metre off top and bottom limits of sail range.

Unregistered
20th June 2012, 12:12 PM
Mr Average weighs around 75kg.. In an attempt to sell as many of any individual board as possible ALL boards are designed with this in mind. The further you stray from being Mr Average (in weight) the harder it is to find a board that works for you in conditions you sail.

Unfortunately the situation is endemic. Most will tell heavyweights they need "more skill" (to uphaul/gybe/wave ride etc etc) but in reality they simply need more volume.. Reserve volume is even geared towards maintaining this BS... Its a ridiculous concept.. Imagine an oil tanker with 10 litres reserve volume...It would be sinking... A duck on the other hand floats happily with lots less than 10 litres reserve volume...Afraid all our sport is based on psuedo science... The manufacturers cant even (or wont)quote real volumes; in this way they are allowed to manipulate all us naive sailors into buying this years trend/revolution/wide board/tri fin/quad/ etc etc .. All we really need is a board that floats us and planes when its windy; gybes when we need and jumps when we want...But we are all victims of sponsored sailors/flashy magazines/sails patter and end up with 4 boards (3 of which are basically too small) ; 8 sails and 4 masts...

Oh and its fashion to sail a board thats too small... Go to any venue and everyone does it..Its not cool to sail a board thats big enough for you dude...

Ken
20th June 2012, 03:31 PM
Unregistered,

There are so many variables (body weight, board volume, board width, wind speed, skill level, water conditions, type of sailing, salt/fresh water) that there just isn't a simple way to provide what you want.

That's why there is a forum to help individuals determine what will work best for you given your circumstances and skills. That's Roger's goal.

For each board, given it's volume, width , length and design purpose, certain size sails work best, regardless of body weight.

For me at 165 lbs, it's somewhat easy for me to uphaul a 105 liter board (it doesn't sink) and deal with little or no wind if I get stuck. We each find our comfort zone for uphauling based on our skill, sailing site and typical conditions, and it will vary quite a bit for many sailors of the same weight on the same board.

Some 150 lb sailors had difficulty uphauling on a 200 liter board when they began windsurfing and with highly developed skills, can now uphaul an 75 liter board.

Those of us that think before we act and ask questions or research windsurfing, are never victims.

I find that I have the most fun on the smallest board that will maintain good speed/planing given the wind conditions. For me, that's over 20 knots of wind. While I still have fun in lighter winds on bigger boards/sails, the smaller board it just more fun. I think this is true for most windsurfers that get frequent or occasional windy days, but we sometimes go too far and select something that is too small and struggle a bit. It's just a little too much optimism at times, expecting the wind to do more than it can. Bummer, then we have to re-rig something larger.

Unregistered
20th June 2012, 05:12 PM
Ken

I quote

"It would seem that for your 150 Lbs./68 kg. body weight you could easily uphaul a
100 liter board, " From a Starboard expert...for someone asjking advice re uphauling and a 130 litre board

68 kg is not a heavy sailor; but the blokes board will weigh minimum of 8 kg. (wet straps etc) His mast a couple; (probably more) his sail 4 or 5 and his boom a couple. His wetsuit/harness will add another couple.(at least) Total approx 17kg..
68+ 17 = 85kg...
Doesnt need a science expert or a sailing one to know that any sailor is not going to be able to uphaul with that level of flotation easily.. Its a developed skil and a difficult one at that. Throw in rough water and a relative new sailor and its a recipe for rescue !!! And why ??? Like I said earlier its fashion.. Push sailors onto smallest possible board...often too early and in many cases inappropriate !!!

Watch so many "experts" all over world sailiung(actually wallowing) on boards that are simply too small. Would have thought that someone with your knowledge (and Roger`s) woukld be a little more careful with your advice; especially on issues that could develop into safety risks..
There are loads of great boards out there capable of been uphauled with 85kg load and handle 5.3 in rough water... If there arent any in starboard range thats a different issue...

nakaniko unreg.
21st June 2012, 08:12 AM
I don't see the problem. I agree with Roger, a 68 kg guy can easily uphaul over a 100 lt board, ad with a 5,3 that is the best board for a nomal-intermediate sailor. I'm 90 kg and I easily uphaul over a 112 old board (Mistral Score), even using a slightly out of range Superfreak 8,0.
Obviously if someone wants to have more volume to have more safety for the conditions, and/or for his still low learning level, none forbid to use a bigger board, well knowing that it will be less than perfect. In the first years I rode a Mistral Echo 138 lt even in waves in the sea with NW strong wind in Tunscany, yes it was a rodeo, but I was able to uphaul even in the middle of the sea (yes I also was younger...).
Volume is reated to sails, are the sails that change range of wind and use with different weights.

Unregistered
21st June 2012, 08:38 AM
Just because one person finds a skill easy does not make it so for everybody..

The benefits gained from going to 100 litres (for 68 kg) would be outweighed by extra risks. There are lots of 115 litre boards that would fit bill perfectly.

Sailboarder
21st June 2012, 01:05 PM
Why are board volumes decided by sail range and not body weight? .

I had the same question last year. The reason is linked to both sail and board geometry. A large sail will require more distance between the mast foot and the fin, in order to have the CE of the sail aligned with the CLR of the board. (CE=Centre of effort, CLR=Centre or lateral resistance). So it is not exactly the volume that is important, but the lenght of the board.

If you go to extremes, a small 3.5 sail will always have it CE in front of the CLR of an ultrasonic board. Because of this, the board will always head downind.

Now if you take a specific 100l board with it's optimal 6.0 sail, it can be used with two people of vastly different weight. I guess my wife at 60 kg could plane with this in 14 knots. Myself, at 95 kg, will need more than 20 kts. Somewhat independantly, the water state will also be important. My wife will want to use that board in flatish water, but I will like it in chop.

Ken
21st June 2012, 03:14 PM
unreg, (I don't know which one)

If Roger made a mistake, it was not asking for more detailed information regarding the original posters question. Uphauling ability is based upon experience and the original poster could have offered more about his/her experience, but didn't, so Roger just made a calculated guess.

Since I don't know how many different "unregistered" posters are on this tread, this discussion is going around in circles unless the original poster can identify him/her self and expand on their experience so a better response can be provided.

One issue I have with Sailboarder's comments on board/sail size is that some of the shortest boards on the market carry the largest sails = Formula boards. Board width (in the tail) is also an important factor with determining sail size (fins too).

Sailboarder
21st June 2012, 07:34 PM
You are right, I meant distance between mast foot and fin.

You are also right that I am simplifying. However, my take is that I will choose sail size first according to the wind. Theoretically, fin selection would be second, depending on the water state and ride objective. The smoother the water, the faster I'll go, and the smaller fin I will use. If I had a big quiver, board selection would be last step. Enough mast-foot to fin length to cover well my sail, enough width to make sure I am not overpowered by the fin, but not too much width to loose traction all the time due to chop.

Volume itself is important only if uphauling is required. Weight + 30l in my case for easy success. Volume is also practical to describe the boards since it cover both width and length in a single number, but it is not accurate at all. My Kona One behaves roughly like a 135l board but is 220l. The critical measurements are the same however.

llsk
29th July 2016, 01:26 AM
Mr Average weighs around 75kg.. In an attempt to sell as many of any individual board as possible ALL boards are designed with this in mind. The further you stray from being Mr Average (in weight) the harder it is to find a board that works for you in conditions you sail.

Unfortunately the situation is endemic. Most will tell heavyweights they need "more skill" (to uphaul/gybe/wave ride etc etc) but in reality they simply need more volume.. Reserve volume is even geared towards maintaining this BS... Its a ridiculous concept.. Imagine an oil tanker with 10 litres reserve volume...It would be sinking... A duck on the other hand floats happily with lots less than 10 litres reserve volume...Afraid all our sport is based on psuedo science... The manufacturers cant even (or wont)quote real volumes; in this way they are allowed to manipulate all us naive sailors into buying this years trend/revolution/wide board/tri fin/quad/ etc etc .. All we really need is a board that floats us and planes when its windy; gybes when we need and jumps when we want...But we are all victims of sponsored sailors/flashy magazines/sails patter and end up with 4 boards (3 of which are basically too small) ; 8 sails and 4 masts...

Oh and its fashion to sail a board thats too small... Go to any venue and everyone does it..Its not cool to sail a board thats big enough for you dude...

Finally someone gets it!

joe_windsurfer
2nd August 2016, 08:03 AM
on a long n narrow longboard, one has more than say 180 liters - will float almost anyone
often they had US fin boxes where fins were no longer than 30 cm or so
{without getting into the area n thickness of fins...}
these boards can handle sails from 5.0 to 10+ m²
this seems to have nothing to do with volume nor fin
just the nature of the beast

what about short boards ??
i always thought it had more to do with fin/sail size combo
volume for flotation as someone suggested
{assuming we longer speak about "virtual volume}
on a short board we speak about OFO/"one foot off" from the tail
this has been found to restrict maximum fin length
a formula board can be about 80 cm OFO and they use 77 cm fins
Roger once suggested to me NOT to use fins less than 1/2 the OFO
so, half of 80 cm is 40 cm which suggests about a 7 m²
thus we have a sail range of 7 to 12 meter sails
typically the low end is pushing it (1/2 OFO)

Carve 131 has a tail width / OFO of 47.5 cm
SB suggested fins are 36 to 42
and i am guessing you can put a 48 cm fin for that 8-oh
for OFO - fin range is 24 to 48
again the low end seems to be pushing it and 36 to 48 makes sense
for me this translates to about 6.x to 8.x sails
SB suggests 5.0 to 8.0

what you use for your weight n skills in terms of sails, is your business
a 100 kilo sailor should be able to uphaul on a 130 liter board - perhaps with some technique
150 pounds which is ~70 kilos should have NO issue uphauling on such a board
whether sail should be a 5-oh or an 8-oh depends on wind n skills
70 and 100 kilo sailors can use 5-oh and 8-oh sails depending on wind n skills
with a NICE board like a Carve 131 skilled sailors are probably beach and water starting - NO uphauling

in any case, that's how i look at volume, sail size, etc ...

at about 105 kilos I often sail a Mistral Equipe II XR
never worried about being cool
the cool cats are foiling on kites :-)

Unregistered
3rd August 2016, 12:08 PM
Can I use a carve 131 with 5.3 - 7.5 at 150 lbs? I would like the extra volume for uphauling in slop and safety in dead zones with offshore winds on freshwater, but it seems everyone is pushing me towards lower volume.
YES, you can! Anything is possible in this sport, havent you realized?! Will you like it? Probably. Will you still like it after a couple of seasons? I doubt. Your skill will increase, the experience gained of the many sessions spend on this board will open your eyes to its limitations and youll be ready to move on-thats called a naturall progression and there is nothing wrong with that.
[QUOTE] Why are board volumes decided by sail range and not body weight? [UNQUOTE]
Because body weight determines the sail size and the board shaper suggests the appropriate volume for that sail size. For example: you need a board for 10-20 kts wind range which for an average weight person will be something like 7.5 and 6.5 sails. You are an early intermediate and you are looking at the Carve 121-5.0 to 8.0 sail range. Which means 6.0 and 7.0 will be the optimal sails for this board. If you sail mostly the 6.5 go with it, if you sail the 7.5 mostly go with the 131. For that wind range if you are advanced level and you are looking at Starboard AtomIQ -a performance board- you'll choose the114L.
Now what will be the difference if you have several windsurfers with different weights? Well every one of them will choose diferent combination of sail sizes for that same wind range-the heavier ones will go for 7.0-8.0 and the lighter ones for 7.0-6.0 and then will choose the appropriate board volume acording to the shapers recommendation.
The system is proven and it works great, but you need to understand it. Maybe there should be instructions link posted next to the spreadsheets or something.

Unregistered
3rd August 2016, 12:30 PM
PS: It is a lot like choosing a pickup truck. You know what weight you are going to tow and you choose the optimal engine to do the job. Based on that info the manufacturer recommends the size of the cab that will best accomodate that size engine and the rest of the hardware, giving you several variations to choose from. In windsurfing this translates to you choosing the sail that will do the job for you for a specific wind strength and the shaper recommends you the best model for the conditions you are sailing in /the terrain you are driving on in truck analogy/ and the best volume for that sail size. Get it ? ;)