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Guest
19th April 2007, 09:26 AM
I recently purchased a Debocheit R19 xsoft +8. For the 161. The stiffness xsoft seems just as stiff as my Medium and medium + fins. Is this correct or should I send the fin back. It certainly does not feel like an xtra soft fin under sail.

Comment please.

Tom C

Guest
19th April 2007, 07:30 PM
Hi,

The stifness of my R19 S is the same as R13 hard. I also feel that fin is too stiff.

rom

Guest
20th April 2007, 06:12 AM
a bit science

try measuring the deflection of the fins

and post the results on the forum

Remi
20th April 2007, 08:57 AM
Hi Guest,

The stifness of a R13, R17 and R19 are different due the different shape. So each profil have is own stifness.

For exemple a R19 soft -- is close to the R13 soft.
R17 soft is soft as a R13 soft --

So the best stifness for the R19 is soft --.

All the best

Guest
21st April 2007, 03:24 AM
I also bought 2 R19 S-- rake 8+, a friend af me bought the same but S-. We measured the fins exectly at the same point with a load of 10Kg.
Results
All the R 19 S-- and S- 10.0 - 10,2 mm.
R 17 S rake 8+ 12,1 mm.
R 13 S rake 8+ 13,2 mm.
R 13 M rake 6+ 11,8 mm.
R 13 H rake 6+ 10.1 mm.
and the big difference: Kashy XS 20,8 mm.
So it doesn't matter wich fin you choose of Deboichet.
You don't get what you order. It is a mass produktion and only
pro's get what the ordered. in the last 3 years I bought about 8 formula fins and the R 19 was the last one.
A deboichet R 19 S-- and a Kashy XS more than 100% softer
Thats why they are 2 times more expensive, they are 100% better

regards from a frustrated customer:(

But I one a Kashy :D

Sieger

Guest
21st April 2007, 08:20 AM
Thanks for the feedback, regardless of deflection this fin is not soft and does not sail like my other soft fins. Very disapointed in Debochet, I think they need to improve production controls before I purchase another one.

Tom

G
21st April 2007, 10:36 PM
I have no reason to noe believe what you all state here about Deb stifness but the point is:
when Remi suggested s-- did he intented "common/large production or "un-common/real custom" one ?
From what I know at the moment no many people is part of Debo team so,maybe,Remi does use the first version and suggest just that.In this case thare's no problem for the mass but if it works in a different way: Huston we have a problem!!

bubi
22nd April 2007, 06:09 PM
dear friends,

Remis suggestion and tips for the f161 are very good. i tested all this thinks he wrote on the forum and the only i can say is "thanks Remis"

bbut deboichet i ordered two months ago 3 R19 S-- and i have no answer..

....i cancelled simply the order.....


best regards and have a nice day on the water

bubi

Guest
27th April 2007, 07:12 PM
Remis suggestion and tips works for me also very good. I bought 3 new Starboards this year and believe him in his advises. Manny thanks Remi. But about the Deboichet fins there is to manny difference in stifness with the same fin type.

Wenn you order a R 19 S-- rake 8 (2 pcs.) and measure them with a R 19 S rake 8, delevered 6 weeks earlier, it is strange that the last one
is the most soft of these fins. When you order a S-- you want a realy soft fin and not a fin wich is stiffer than a R 13 Medium.

Deboichet needs to know that when we order each year new formula fins. We do this because we want to get better and better. It should not matter wich fin type you choose H= Hard and M= Medium and S= Soft. The stifness should always be nearly the same. But not a S-- wich is stiffer than a Medium.

When Remi advices a fin and tested it, be shore he is right.
But do we get the same fin with the same stiffnes than Remi when we order the same fin.
Thats the big question. I think Remi and other pro's theyre fins are
realy soft and works well. This is what we also want when we order a S-- fin for Euro 300,00. As stiffer fin has a complete other performance than a softer fin.
But Deboichet don't want to have to manny breaking problems
So build them for normaly racers wo pay for the fins much stiffer and you have no problems. But you don't get what you expect.

Deboichet has his one measuring for rake the same they can do for stiffness/ flex and twist. Than you know what you get.

Remi and Oriana please your reactions,

Best regards

Sieger

Guest
3rd May 2007, 04:02 PM
Just thought it was worth bringing this back up as I believe a few people are interested in Deb's answer!!!

Dudu

Remi
3rd May 2007, 06:22 PM
Hi Dudu and Sieger,

Deboichet devellope a lot a of different profil with different stifness to satisfy everybodies, and personnaly I check my protoype and the serial one that customers receive in Martinique, everything is perfectly ok.
By the way julien Quentel show us again the performances of the last R19 soft -- rake +8 cm in super light win at the FW European with a fantastic first place. Yes this fin is stiffer than a R17 soft because is definitely not the same profil, you can't compare stifness between different profil.

This is also Jean-Jacques answer :


ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPARE THE STFFNESS BETWEEN 2 DIFFERENT MODELS - THE INTERNAL CONSTRUCTIONS ARE NOT THE SAME - MAYBE ONLY WITH A MACHINE MEASURMENT YOU WILL FIND THE DIFFERENCE BUT ANYWAY ALL OUR FINS HAVE A DIFFERENT CONCEPT SO A DIFFERENT CONSTRUCTION - IF YOU COMPARE R13 SOFT TO R17 SOFT THE 17 WILL BE MUCH SOFTER THEN THE 13 - THE 19 DUE TO HIS CONCEPT IS MUCH THICKER THEN ALL THE OTHER FINS THAT ARE IN OUR RANGE SO THE STIFFNESS IS STIFFER THEN THE OTHER MODELS.
I THINK THAT THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE CUSTOMER(S) ARE EXPECTING A REALLY REALLY SOFT FIN BECAUSE OF THE MENTION "SOFT LESS LESS" BUT ON THE 19 THE STIFFNESS RANGE IS NOT THE SAME THEN 17 OR 13 OR 16 ETC THAT ARE ALSO NOT THE SAME BETWEEN THEM...
LET ME KNOW IF THIS IS ENOUGH FOR YOUR AS AN EXPLANATION... ANYWAY WAT I WANT TO SAY ALSO IS THAT EVERYONE HAVE HIS OWN WAY TO DEVELOP THE STIFFNESS AND THERE IS NOTHING (NO RULE) THAT SAY THAT SOFT LESS LESS MUST BE FOR EVERY FIN LIKE THIS OR THAT AND SOFT LIKE THIS OR .... ETC...
ALL THE BEST - ORIANA

Guest
5th May 2007, 09:37 AM
Sounds pretty obvious cause the stiffness is just a ratio of force/deflection, but I believe Sieger was comparing two R19, one S-- and S... with the S softer than S--

Guest
8th May 2007, 07:01 AM
Remi, perhaps deboichet should also comment on the two R19s Sieger has presented on this thread, it is perhaps something that cannot be ignored. and also provide some guideance for "Tom C" perhaps a way to check his fin's stiffness.

Guest
6th June 2007, 12:38 AM
Hello,

UPDATE, I started this thread about 6 weeks ago on the difficulty I was having on the R19 S--. Since this time, I have sailed the R19 many times. I will now say that the fin is very good in light air despite being very stiff. There is a learning curve or difficultly factor that took me sometime to adapt and get all the power from the fin.

The really soft flexible fins are easy to sail (R13 S--) but give up some upwind ability and speed going downwind compared to the R19 S--.

However, the R19 S-- is much more difficult to pump on plane than say an R13 S--. Once I realized I need to apply more force to pump the sail on plane I have been very happy with the performance both upwind and downwind. In light air 9-13mph it clearly drives upwind better than my softer fins in R13 models.

I still think the R19 S-- would perform better if it were a bit more flexible or less stiff, but I don't profess to be a fin designer or builder. I'm sure debocheit designed this fin for ultimate light air performance and not comfort. Anyway I guess Debocheit has been redeemend atleast from my perspective.

Tom C

Tom C

Remi
6th June 2007, 05:20 AM
Hi Tom,

Thanks for your answer, but yes at Deboichet we continue to develop something beter and beter for light wind.

All the best

Guest
17th June 2007, 10:29 AM
Why does this Oriana guy write in CAPS? He seems like a very angry dude all the time?

Guest
17th June 2007, 10:55 AM
Err he or she. oops maybe.

Guest
17th June 2007, 01:05 PM
"you can't control stiffness with a different profile."

Hmm. So, your point is that if one manually flexes say a S fin of a different profile; it will be / feel different in flex? Duh. But still, there must be some standards which cause one to be considered S, and another M, no? What then is the concept? Just that one R19 will be softer than another R19? If so, that's pretty lame--maybe not in concept or execution, but at least in the information you're giving out for defining your product. Like making a sail range of a bunch of 10.0s from light wind 10.0-- to high wind 10.0. This is quite possible. I know a pro that has 3 'identical' 4.2's--each cut for a totally different wind strength. But, if the sailmaker was to market these three sails--users would be confused, unless they were informed what the deal was on each 4.2.