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windsurferdagg
6th May 2007, 10:03 AM
Hey roger!

I got out today on my 5.0 (its an old sail) and my Go 139... super powered up, it was a blast. I got sailing, into the front strap but still can't get into that back one... and was pretty happy until the wind shifted. Large chop started building up. Up to knee high in some cases. Going upwind on the go was a chore and a half. Bouncing around everywhere, randomly catching air (and with the back foot not in the footstrap... BAM). I was just wondering if there is anything I can do to "smooth things over" with my board and chop. Downwind is fine as you just seem to pick up speed and skip over them, but upwind isn't as fun.

attached is a picture of me sailing around with my Go. It is a great board, the more powered up, the faster it wants to go. It just seems to keep accelerating!!!

also if you can critique my stance. I think if i raise the boom up a bit more and kind of straighten my legs, i will have a more controled stance. Especially when i get in that GD back strap!

windsurferdagg
6th May 2007, 10:06 AM
i can't seem to get the picture, so try http://www.flickr.com/photos/8134687@N02/485678833/ untill i can figure the damn thing out

crazychemical
6th May 2007, 05:06 PM
I also have problems getting in the back footstrap so i usually place my foot in the centre. However, when the board starts bouncing around a bit, it's safer to put in on the rear strap in the beginning, to get the feel, later u can then put it in the footstrap, once you find the propper position to stand in.
What fin did u use for the 5.0? Whenever i put my 5.5 on my go i use a 40 cm fin (a bit short but i've never had a spinn out with it).
You sailed 30 knots with a 5.0? .... dude .... Even i wouldn't try that, i might use it in like 25-26 knots ... and even then i'd be taking risks, especially with the go.

Duracell
6th May 2007, 11:28 PM
foreword
------------
30 kts is quite a bit of wind.
30 kts is a hell of a lot of wind for a go 139 & 5.0 (PERIOD)!

I was out today in winds gusting to 35 and more kts on a K86 and 4.2 at 86 Kg. That was well proportionened (not formula racing).
At least I saw it that way, others weren't having as much fun due to some of the following:
- too short lines
- too much volume/sailor weight

You can surf a wide board in 30 kts but it will end up in mast forward, boom down, always trying to go upwind with your tail between your hind legs, whining home.


answers
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- when wind is up so much that you get kind of scared to get going you should get into your back footstrap first (yes before planing)(you will even get into your front straps before planing)(plus tip below).
- make sure your harness lines are long enough (not like 22 or less but really more like 24, 26 or even better 28). Why? Becuase that way you can hang down more on your rig applying enough downforce to prevent your board from trying a tail walk. You otherwise stand upright aplying no downforce whatsoever and enjoy being a passenger instead of pilot.
- hard work keeping board down == tail walk! Only remedy against that besides changing fin & or board: mast forward, apply massive amounts of downforce through your harness. If you can't: opening your sail will only make things worse!
- oh yeah, wide board == masive lift from wind flowing under the board. Keep that windward rail down or it won't be a theroectical possiblitiy: it will lift you including your board straight out of the water. WACK and then SPLASH and then you can check and see if all parts are still intact.

Phill104
7th May 2007, 05:46 AM
Duracell wrote:


answers
-----------
- when wind is up so much that you get kind of scared to get going you should get into your back footstrap first (yes before planing)(you will even get into your front straps before planing)(plus tip below).



Really bad habit to get into. Do it the correct way from the start and you wont end up having to modify your technique later on. Try that on a wave board and you will end up in real trouble.

Duracell wrote:

- make sure your harness lines are long enough (not like 22 or less but really more like 24, 26 or even better 28). Why? Becuase that way you can hang down more on your rig applying enough downforce to prevent your board from trying a tail walk. You otherwise stand upright aplying no downforce whatsoever and enjoy being a passenger instead of pilot.



Everyone has a different style, hook height etc. If the rider is quite short and has short arms then 22 might be the right choice.

windsurferdagg,

Read back through Rogers' posts on this subject and you will find some great tips. It also looks like you could do with a little more downhaul but it's hard to tell from your pic. You are sailing with bent arms though, try tor relax and keep the front arm straight. Sheeting in a little more maybe by moving the lines back a little also helps with control (again, it's hard to tell from your pic)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/207/485678857_a805db2f00.jpg

windsurferdagg
7th May 2007, 06:38 AM
lol that wasn't the picture that was supposed to be ther... lol, that was me about to get catipulted I think. Usually i try to get my arms more bent, but the wind was awfully gusty. I think i need a smaller board too. That might help. The actual picture i wanted to post was uh... il find a way to post it soon. As for the downhaul thing, my sail that i used there was my learning sail, the beat up sail. It is rigged on an aluminum :-O mast.

http://bp0.blogger.com/_pf0ntQsB6Es/Rj0TckDnh9I/AAAAAAAAAAk/LtJCkQW2Ar0/s1600-h/DSCN2115.JPG

try that, that is the picture i wanted to be critiqued on. lol i think its a bit better, i have more body wieght away from the rig. I was using around 24-26 inch lines. Hard to tell with adjustable.

Thanks for your advice and help everyone,

Thomas

Duracell
7th May 2007, 02:08 PM
Really bad habit to get into. Do it the correct way from the start and you wont end up having to modify your technique later on. Try that on a wave board and you will end up in real trouble.

hmm,
- we are talking overpowered to way overpowered (survival) arent't we, not everyday surfing??
- don't know what the pros do, but other very experienced surfers do it that way too
- doesn't work with wave boards, you mean you can't get it to work in survival conditions??

Center of gravity man (keep it LOW)

Everyone has a different style, hook height etc. If the rider is quite short and has short arms then 22 might be the right choice.

Center of gravity man (keep it LOW), we are still talking overpowered.

In General
-------------
One more thing: What I see quite frequently at the beach are people with their harness lines WIDE apart (like 2-3 hands). Thats what I call "cheating". Cheating because they don't even bother to find the "sweet spot". That ends up in 1 more problem when things get rough. When things get rough there is only 1 most important thing: CONTROL!

windsurferdagg / picture
----------------------------
looks like
- boom too low
- hard to tell but if are you commiting 100% to your lines (I think not)
- having your arms bent is something for downforcing when entering/executing a gybe. When planing downforce should be issued by your harness only
- harnes lines how far apart?
- was that in something like 12-16kts? For sure not 30+ kts.

windsurferdagg
8th May 2007, 02:50 AM
oh that wasn't the 30 knot winds there. That was at the beginning where the waves or chop was blocked by the pier that went out. It was cool, you could touch bottom, the wind was there but no massive chop. The wind reader we have at one of the sailing clubs registered a peek at 32 knots every 14 or so minutes when it posted its report on the site. I doubt it was 30 knots most of the time, but gusts were over 30 knots later in the day. At the beginning or where i was sailing there, it was more 24-27 knots.

Boom was too low, it was a learning sail and i need a new one cause that is as high as it goes...

I don't really get the commiting 100% to the harness thing. My arms were not pulling or holding me up if but that might be a different thing.

my harness lines are around 3 inchs apart...

and last question as i said before, from the angle where my dad took the photos, it doesn't look as windy. i can't get planning on a 5.0 in 16 knots... thats more 6.6 territory

o2bnme
8th May 2007, 04:17 AM
For comparison purposes, this is 30 knots minus the protection.

http://images24.fotki.com/v801/photos/7/7299/4853750/GF6F9885_CR2-vi.jpg

I sailed for 10 minutes in this stuff before giving up. My cousin made it 5 minutes.

Normally, the foreground is high and dry. There was enough wind to push the water across the body of water and up onto shore.

When the wind died down altogether, the water 30 feet from shore was knee deep. In this picture, it was shoulder deep.

windsurferdagg
8th May 2007, 06:00 AM
where is that? that looks awsome to sail. Big body of water.

windsurferdagg
8th May 2007, 06:08 AM
http://bp3.blogger.com/_pf0ntQsB6Es/Rj-xB0DniBI/AAAAAAAAABE/4YXHyoXnCg8/s1600-h/DSCN2056.JPG

that is what it was like at 11:15, the wind picked up later in the day, but it was around 26ish knots than. So with gusts, 30ish. Oh and its me trying to figure out how to do the stupid strap so it would fit my bootie. No luck so i chucked them and whet barefoot. My mistake as I cut my damn foot on a zebra muscle. AIYA!

o2bnme
8th May 2007, 08:12 AM
windsurferdagg wrote:
where is that? that looks awsome to sail. Big body of water.

Hatteras

Roger
8th May 2007, 08:42 PM
Hi Thomas,
After looking at your photos, and reading the posts from the other guys, I have more questions than I can develop answers to.
First, what precisely is the problem you are having getting your back foot into the strap?
Have you ever been able to to this (get in the back strap) in any sort of conditions?
As far as getting into the back strap first, some people actually do that, but I tend to agree with Phil 104 that learning to get into the front strap first is the preferred method.
Why.....?
Because leads to a "progression" as you move back on your board.
Once you have your front foot in the strap you are "anchored" and can take your time getting into the back strap.
Also, the back strap first method may work in super high winds, but you will soon be learning to waterstart, and you can then put both feet in the straps (if necessary) before you show the sail to the wind and once you are up, you will be in both straps. This is a very "extreme methodology" but when you get stuck out on the water with too much sail/fin/board, you do whatever works.
As for analyzing your photos, part of your stance problem is simply the fact that you aren't in the rear footstrap.
If you were in the back and outboard footstrap it would turn your body more parallel with the boards centerline, help to sheet your sail the rest of the way in and rake it back so you get more lift to slide your board over the chop.
The bent arms are not good, and indicate to me that you aren't committing to your harness, but when you get in strong gusty winds, we all do it to one degree or another.
Also, since you have an older rig, which wasn't made to "twist off at the top" you power in the sail may be higher in the sail and perhaps a bit further behind mast.
As far as the surface conditions, and what that means, you can really find virtuall any sort of surface condtions when you are that close to shore. The geography and wind direction can combine to make it a true 30 knots in very flat water (the speedsailing sites in Australia and France are good examples) or 30 knots in waist high chop (in side onshore conditions like o2bnme's soundside Hatteras photo).
So, most important, what keeps you from sliding your foot into the back footstrap?
Hope this helps,

Duracell
9th May 2007, 01:08 AM
Yup, thats what 30+ kts looks like :). Looks more like WF 8, but no big difference. Pics are similar, flat - or - wavy (< 1.5 mtrs) from afar. Surfing is different but not THAT different. The further out you are flat (offshore winds mind u) becomes chop (50 mtrs from beach) becomes waves (200 mtrs from beach and so on). Usually only one end of your turn is flat, the other will be quite "choppy".

As to the back foot in footstraps, you usually do that after a -not perfect but standing- gybe (of course you could dump the sail in that case and water start, but in OP&#39;d condiditions I&#39;d prefer staying ON the board).

One reason for back foot first is that you slide your board with the wind NOT GAINING any speed (some people call it spin out, I call it sliding) which in survial conditions adds to the "feeling good groove", then, when in control and in the straps you open the throttle as far as you dare (again, survial mode getting you in one piece home or though one helluva gust). Okay, there is one downfall, if you screw up you&#39;ll do a nose plant in your sail leewards of the board, but you&#39;re learning right?B) and, what other option did u have?

The bent arms are not good, and indicate to me that you aren&#39;t committing to your harness, but when you get in strong gusty winds, we all do it to one degree or another.

Downforce Downforce Downforce Downforce Downforce Downforce Downforce

low center of gravity, hang it out with your harness <=> longer lines.

I would almost bet that one of the most common -everyone but the pros does it mistake- is lack of donwforce when schlogging (gybing, in general). Just try applying tons of downforce when schlogging and notice what a difference it makes.

When it comes to gybing (especially in o2bnme&#39;s conditions) DONWFORCE is THE WAY to go. Nothing like bouncing over a few waves till coming to an almost halt and then gybing down the face of a wave... :(

Don&#39;t want to hog this thread too much but:
in 30+ kts with chop (e.g. <=1mtr) carving a "vroom" gybe is something you have to work on and will sooner or later involve learning the DOWNFORCE lesson, so, why wait?

(I did assume you were already capable of riding in the back straps, 30 kts would otherwise be a very short lived experience...)

Phill104
9th May 2007, 02:10 AM
windsurferdagg,

As usual, Roger is spot on the mark. He has a way of putting things in words that I can never manage.

Take a look at the footstrap articles by Guy Cribb, might give you some things to think about.

http://www.guycribb.com/windsurfing_technique_holiday_DVD_0076v01.htm

Not all agree with some of his ideas (including myself, he has very fixed ideas with no room for individuality especially when it comes to the harness and lines) but he does give some very good advice and there is no doubt that he is an extremely good teacher and windsurfer. Everyone has different opinions and that is a good thing IMO.

Another great learning resource is the Peter Hart DVDs. His commentary is superb and funny while instructional. One of the best.

http://www.peter-hart.com/

windsurferdagg
9th May 2007, 07:35 AM
Roger, i was out tonight with my old 6.6 and got my first throguh 25ith waterstart. I had someone show me and I just got them right away. Waterstarting is actually really easy once you get your first one. My problem was i could never get the rig flying. But that was explained and now, BAM waterstarting and BAM back foot almost in. I can get my toes in, but usually when that happens, i miss the strap completly (cause i keep telling myself, let them see me miss not me) or get catipulted cause im not doing it fast enough i think. But today was awsome. I was overpowered again (since i don&#39;t have anything between a 6.6 and a 5.0...) but it was a great learing experience.

I was explained and people watched me put my foot in the back strap. I should put my foot right beside the strap and kind of twist in instead of lifting my foot quilckly like I do every time. I have the not looking part, I think I understand what you mean by commiting to the harness (i now try and see if I can take a hand off or not and that tells me) and its working better now that i really lean into it with out any arms.

Next time im going for some jibes. Now that I can waterstart, I don&#39;t really worry about falling so it seems the whole sport is more open to me now...

Tks everyone for their help and comments

Thomas