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Jay
22nd May 2007, 12:03 PM
I'm wondering if any has any ideas (or has heard any rumors) about what might be up for the Serenity in 2008?

I'm very close to buying one and trying to decide whether to get one now or wait a year. The current board is great from everything I've read although totally new board concepts always seem get better in subsequent versions (ie, as was clearly the case with the F-Types). For example, among other things, I'm wondering if refinements might make the board easier to gybe and go downwind, if the stock fin might be shortened, and if the foredeck might be beefed up to better withstand boom head strikes. Anyone hear anything?

Thanks!

Jay

Jean-Marc
23rd May 2007, 03:37 AM
Jay,

Don't know for 2008 but here is my wish list as well :

- Keep the Technora Serenity as sturdy as possible: perfect durability so far for school, teaching, rental, test, etc...Maybe more user-friendly towards jibing and going downwind for intermediate skilled people.
- Keep the Wood Serenity as light, responsive and crisp as possible. Do not make her heavier (get rid of the water-filled cooling daggerfin box), she should remain the ultimate performer she has been designed for in ultra light winds. Make her the no-compromise ultra gliding machine.
- For both, keep 2 stock fins. The shallow 41 cm fin does nicely compliment the stock race 70 cm fin IMHO. With big sail in winds below 4 knots, the wide 70 cm fin is unmatched when going upwind. The smaller fin is perfect to keep control of the hull once overpowered at high speed.

As I experienced following the availability of the HyperSonic 105 about 5 years ago, I feel this new concept will benefit the most with the widest sail and fin size range as possible. This is going to be the "hyper gliding" board of the future.

Cheers !

JM

Jay
23rd May 2007, 04:53 AM
JM,

Do you think the Technora is currently more durable than the wood construction? How much more durable (ie, will it's deck break with non-catapult boom head strikes)? How much performance do you think you give up with the added weight of Technora vs Wood? If you were buying today, with your experience, would you buy wood or Technora?

What is the "water-filled cooling daggerfin box"? I thought both boards have a deep tuttle box and I don't see how you can eliminate that?

Jay

Jean-Marc
23rd May 2007, 05:45 AM
Jay,

Sorry, I can't comment on the durability of Technora versus Wood because I didn't witness nor test a woody yet. Just tested shortly 1 of 2 Technora from a Surf Club & School. Both were abused by beginners, intermediates and experts. Lots of marks and scratchs everywhere but no ding as of yet. Stored nude outside in the rain, sun, heat, hail and cold without any cover or other protection since March delivery.

I've ordered a woody because I want the maximum performance in ultra light wind. She is going to be pampered with great care and stored in a specific board bag, as with all of my 6 other boards.

The cooling box is located between the upper deck and the access holes for the daggerfin's screws on both current edition. This box is covered by a foam cover on the deck (nothing to do with the Deep Tuttle box by itself). I've found that this cooling box was being filled by water while sailing and added unnecessary weight. I'm going to fill the void with beadboard material to get rid of any water storage (same with the void under the carryhandle) and fix the foam cover by Velcro closure. My views on this subject is that just 2 plain oval access holes * la iSonic are enough for the screws to hold the daggerfin on the wood edition only but the current cooling box could be fun to store drinks on the Technora edition.

More later when I'll get my woody hopefully this week-end...

Cheers !

JM

Guest
23rd May 2007, 10:17 AM
JM, my guess is that you are the only person in the world concerned about the "extra weight" from water in the drink holder. :)

I don't know how much of the Serenity's speed is related to its weight versus it's shape, but I would actually like to see a cheaper, more general-purpose Serenity in a heavier construction. If it could double as a kayak, that would be cool.

Jay
23rd May 2007, 10:34 AM
JM,

Thanks for the input.

Please be sure to post your experience with your new woody Serenity.

You should name her "Splinter" - due to her construction and her shape! I am sure you will be pleased...

Jay

Randy
23rd May 2007, 06:48 PM
My suggestions for 2008 (based on same shape, so this is fine tuning.)

1. A longer mast track might be useful (not to mention an adjustable track).
2. Build in a mounting for a Jez Knob in front of the track and include it with the board. (I haven't had a problem YET, but it seems others have.)
3. I wonder if adding a very small fin in the tail would be beneficial. At times the board seems a little unstable and might track better with a small fin.
4. It would make a great kayak if fittings were installed for a seat and foot rest.

For the "next generation" of Serenity, I'd suggest something easier to sail. Perhaps 13-14 feet long, a little wider, cheaper, and sadly (most likely) lower performing. To popularize the board, I think it needs to be accessable to more sailors. Dumbing it down may be the way to do it (just make sure we can still get the originial.)

Guest
23rd May 2007, 07:24 PM
i have it on good authority that the cooling box has also structurally been designed to support a crossbeam , a sinele one ( to cut conplexity to make this board a catamaran type of setup. For a variety of rationale , 1st instructor on one hull, student on the other. 2. also to entertain a biplane type rig sans "team phillips' configuration with two sailors , hopefully without the resultant self destruction issues that team phillips had...
shredulato

Jay
24th May 2007, 04:03 AM
Off topic from my original post - best sail for the Serenity:
I was thinking of getting a Severne Glide 7.5 to go with a Serenity as it's power/weight seems pretty ideal. However, that is one expensive sail. If anyone has used one, how much added benefit does it have over a comparably sized Retro or even a 6.6 Hucker? Is it worth the addtional cost (and trouble rigging given it's 3 cams)?

Jay

steveC
24th May 2007, 08:40 AM
Hi Jay,

In addition to Sailworks' offerings, you might want to consider Hansen Sails. Their FreeRace series offers a 0-3 camber concept that really is state of the art, and very well built. I think that pricing is very reasonable, and there's absolutely no question of Bill Hansen's creative talent and leading edge design concepts. In addition, you get very strong performance using a robust RDM mast, even in larger sail sizes. Moreover, you have the option to order custom constructions too. Check out details at the following website:

http://www.hansensails.com/

Ian Fox
24th May 2007, 05:26 PM
Actually Roger is probably well suited to add input on the Serenity sail discussion, as he has a lot of time on Serenity and also with Sailworks product. I figure he's enjoyed the Glide as well.
I'll ping him over here.

Having experienced a fair range of different Serenitys myself, I would add that most of the dings come from two sources :
1> the boom front end (boom bra not my scene, but in this case wellsuited to minimise impact damage, however just a minor amount of care when falling in the early stages (and yes, you will fall:) ) can also help guide the fall of the rig in such a way as to minimise the chance of boom impact damage. Simply guiding (or dragging with you) the rig a little as you go in will go a long way to prevent to floaty, no wind flutter rotation that more often than not (if unchecked) seems to want to swing the rig around nicely to strike a nose or tail section.

2>At close to 15ft, the Serenity is a sure candidate to get some easy "swing" dings when the board is being carried, handled or stored off the water. These modern days, we just aren't used to handling the same lengths of yesteryear - take a simple old one pc mast and go for a small walk around your garage etc with it, just watch how many things you hit ! Swinging a Serenity around off the water needs double care, or BAM!!!

Damage of this nature seems equally distributed over both construction types in Serenity, and there certainly doesn't seem a trend of one being more vulnerable than the other in this form of damage. There is no doubt the extra light weight of the Wood is very attractive on the water in this type of sailing - and yes, considering the internal (foam) volume weight to be saved, I did seriously propose a hollow one and, no, it won't be in the 2008 line.

As for the sail, my choice (from the full range in the test centre) is the Glide over the other nocam or few-cam freerides (like NCX, (E)lement etc - and I figure Retro etc).
Jay says in nicely in "power to weight" terms, that thing can't be beat, and the reality is you mostly want around 9m of power, but with the weight of a 7m. Glide sets up nicely with a moderate tight leech and reasonably full foil shape on a light mast with moderate downhaul (ideal for Serenity sweetspot range), cams on rigging are a snap (pun) and on water are an advantage to ultimate sail range but potentially a bit hazardous in tippy conditions when tacking - in light or no wind. The "pop" effort to rotate even easy cams can be enough to pump you right off the board. A simple technicque resolves that; as you exit the tack etc oversheet/pump with the backhand only as you pull the sail in initially, the Glide will swing around onto the new tack and off you go. Initially with the Serenity, the Glide may not be as standout as c/w other sails, but as your experience progresses and the adventure widens, the benefits of the better sail also outweigh any disadvantage.

Glide would also be a useful quiver advantage for light wind slalom etc.

There is no doubt the Glide remains a pricey :o sail, a direct result of the expensive hi performance e3 cloth used throughout that sail exclusively, which is a major contributor to the overall result - both on the water and at the $checkout. In many ways you could consider it similar to carbon booms; pricey and non essential - but use one and it gets difficult to go back ! ;)

Cheers ~ Ian

Roger
24th May 2007, 09:52 PM
Hi Ian,
I wasn't aware of the price of the Glide 7.5 m2 as the one I have came from the Trade Show and as been through a couple of 2 week and 3 month board/sail tests by the US and Canadian Magazines.
But, (and Bruce P. will probably shoot me for saying this) the Glide has become my favorite for <12 knots on the Serenity and Apollo, for exactly the reasons you state, and in exactly the same way "pricey and non essential - but use one and it gets difficult to go back !"
I have larger and smaller Sailworks NX formula and NX slalom 4 cam rigs, and with the "cam kickers&#39; installed, they rotate far more smoothly than the Glide so I use them fairly often as well. I also use the Retro 7.5 and 8.5 m2 frequently, just to test the fell, angle and speed of them against the NX&#39;s and Glide.
The 7.5 Glide I have rigs on an Itallica/Severne 100% carbon mastg, and I&#39;ve discovered I have an older WS Hawaii carbon boom that&#39;s super light and fits the Glide rig perfectly, bringing the overall weight down to around a 6.0-6.5 Retro on a 75% Joystick.
The power of an 8.5-9.0 m2 rig, with the weight of a 6.0-6.5 rig makes an awesome combination that like you say, once you&#39;ve sailed it, it&#39;s very hard to go back.
I think that the *bd design team might want to make up a combination of the Jez&#39;s knob to deflect the mast and boom head as well as a multi-density nose protector pad for the Serenity.
My demo board now has dings both where the boom head comes down and back on the rear deck about the same distance from the mast foot. Not hard to repair, and the WOOD construction of my Serenity has been remarkable, but still kinda ugly on such a beautiful wood board.
Hope this helps,

Jay
25th May 2007, 02:25 AM
Ian, that was fantastic input, thanks :)!

I was under the impression Technora wouldn&#39;t be damaged as easily as wood in boom head strikes. I&#39;m surprised to hear you are suggesting that they are about equal. If that&#39;s the case, I&#39;m more likey to buy wood for the lighter weight.

Thanks also for your input on the Glide, very helpful.

Roger, thanks also for your fine input.

Do you know if there is anywhere in the US to buy a Jez knob to protect the Serentiy (I"ve only seen them for sale overeas)?

I appreciate your sharing all your comparative sailing with different rigs, very nice! Would I be right in guessing that a comparably sized NX (rigged with a bit less DH to tighten the leech and a bit bagged OH for max draft) weighs 10 - 20% more than the Glide and develops 10-20% less power than the Glide?

Your suggestion of a Jez knob and some foam would seem to be the way to protect the foredeck/nose. What do you suggest as a way to protect the "aft deck"?

Jay

Jay
25th May 2007, 02:41 AM
Ian and Roger,

This may be a slightly whacky idea but I thought I&#39;d bring it up in case it has some potential value in relation to the question I posed in my immediately preceeding post about how to protect the aft deck of the Serenity from boom strikes.

Why not construct some kind of small inflatable or high density foam "doughnut" which would fit on the mast base to act as a 360 degree cushion? It would basically sit on the mast foot (kind of like how a mast foot volcano pad is fitted, but instead of being flat foam it would be doughnut or cylindrically shapped (like a small baloon tire circling the mast foot and bast base). It might soften blows enough to prevent damage and eliminate the need for a Jez knob and other pads. It would also be relatively light and out of the way and not hurt your toes like deviators or Jez knobs can and wouldn&#39;t "catch" when trying to move the sail across the board. No glueing pads to the decks (both ugly and hides potential damage). Could be put on for beginners or tough conditions and taken off other times.

Randy
25th May 2007, 06:59 PM
Jay wrote:
Ian, that was fantastic input, thanks :)!

Do you know if there is anywhere in the US to buy a Jez knob to protect the Serentiy (I"ve only seen them for sale overeas)?

Jay

I got mine from Chuck (of recent fame for his Windsurfing Magazine article) at Whitecap:

http://www.whitecapwindsurfing.com/

I&#39;m not sure if he still carries them, but may be able to tell you how to get one.

BTW - one great feature of Serenity, which would be nice to see in everyboard is the fin box. Its the only tuttle box I&#39;ve ever had where the screws go straight into the fin. No fooling around for what seems like an eternity trying to get the screws in when you are anxious to sail!

Jean-Marc
26th May 2007, 04:28 PM
Jay,

To protect the aft deck from boom strikes, a boom bra on the tail end piece of the boom should do it. However, when uphauling the sail on the wrong tack, the tail boom&#39;s tubes are dragging over the aft deck and are drawing nice arc marks on the paint (more accurately, it&#39;s the big and chunky double push pin holder of my X7 boom which is leaving marks on the paint)...I guess a foam tube covering the boom tail tubes like those used to insulate pipes should protect the aft deck, may be ?

Some differences between Technora and Wood Serenity I&#39;ve experienced so far:

1) wood is lighter when handling the board off/on the car roof&#39;s racks and on the beach;
2) while sailing, it&#39;s very hard to notice an obvious difference in weight saving;
3) while sailing, the wood is crisper, more nervous and more rigid than the Technora. There is much less vibrations of the nose when skimming the top of chop/wakes as if the wood has a better dampening effect on the longitudinal axis.

Cheers !

JM

PS : first 2 sessions with the woody "Splinter" :
http://mytrims.com/mytrims/trim4.asp?trimID=18826
http://mytrims.com/mytrims/trim4.asp?trimID=18837

Jay
27th May 2007, 02:00 PM
JM,

Thanks for your input on protecting the aft deck and on wood vs Technora.

I never thought of putting a boom bra on the tail piece - only drawback is the added weight where I least want it (on the clew). Scratches on such a beautiful board are to be avoided, but I got the impression from prior posts that structural damage could be done there similar to what can occur on the foredeck (I&#39;m assuming from boom head rather than boom tail) - and that is what I would be more concerned about. The only thing that would detract from my enjoyment of the board is if it&#39;s too easy to damage the deck and then I need to take it a long distance for a good repair (no local board repair people where I live). Not having had a prior wood board I just am not sure how damage prone it really is (not only from a dropped rig but also about possible damage from my harness hook when climbing back aboard since I won&#39;t be waterstarting this board).

Regarding wood, less vibration in chop sounds very nice but I&#39;m not sure I understand why - I would expect a stiffer platform to damp less not more...

Overall, are you happy paying the premium for wood?

Congradulations on getting your new board, glad you&#39;re enjoying it.
I tried to open your pics (thanks for the links) but when trying to open I get a PW protected log-in screen. Any other way for me to see the pics?

Jay

Guest
28th May 2007, 01:30 AM
for sails you might look at www.demonsails.co.uk.
they do a pretty awesome longboard racing sail, all the longboard guys in the UK use them- they win everything in racing.

Jean-Marc
28th May 2007, 03:32 AM
Jay,

OK, for climbing back on board, I try to sit first on deck to avoid the harness hook dinging the hull (both hand on hull or between hull and mast). Very happy by paying the premium for the woody edition (and the protective board bag).

Yes, you&#39;re right, more rigid with less dampening amplitude, sorry...

For access to mytrims, you&#39;ll need to register, unfortunately. You might access as a "guest" but I can&#39;t remember how. No need to register to watch 2 pics with a pal of 98 kg/ 2 m tall having a quick spin in ± 5 knots of wind : http://mytrims.com/gallery/

Cheers !

JM

Jay
28th May 2007, 02:12 PM
JM,

Thanks for the pics, very nice. Also I logged onto Mytrims - very nice site. I appreciated reading about your sessions including your setup and impressions of your first two sessions. I noticed you were using a 10.6 sail. That may have made the board even more challenging. Roger has stated that going that big may not be necessary even in very light winds. My experience with a 10.5 is that it if fine with the right amount of wind (ie, planing but not totally overpowered) but can actually be harder (more effort) with too little too wind than a smaller sail. Since the Serenity is harder to balance on than a wider board (like a Kona) I&#39;m guessing with little wind to balance against you are vertical over the board and therefore must hold the sail relatively close to you to (which I think can be a bit awkward on a tippy board). I will be interested in you experience comparing a smaller sail (ie, 7.5-8.5) to your 10.6 to see if you also decide that the bigger sail may not be necessary.

I was also interested to hear that the board was easier to go downwind and gybe with your feet more forward.

Regarding getting on the board and avoiding the harness hook - do you pull yourself up facing the board and twist 180 degrees at the last second?

In your comments you mentioned the board was fun and challenging in only 7-8 kts and definitely not for a beginner. I&#39;m certainly not a beginner but my balance is not the best (ie, I often fall when trying to tack a shortboard) - do you have any suggestion how I may be able to predict whether I&#39;m a good candidate for the Serenity or whether it&#39;s a bit too challenging for me (I suspect I&#39;m up to it but I&#39;d hate to buy it and then find out it&#39;s harder than I expected).

Thanks!

Jay

Jean-Marc
5th June 2007, 03:39 AM
Hi Jay,

Sorry for my late reply. Here you go WRT your questions:

1) small 7.8 versus 8.2 sails. I did a quick drag race with my RS2 8.2 sail and compared that with a pal on his RX2 7.8 sail, both sailing the Sport Tech Serenity. Wind was very light. I&#39;ve found the balance tippier with such a small sail, mainly because there was very low power in the hands. Compared to my 10.6 sail, I felt going downwind and jibing were more difficult with a small sail than with a big sail, main difficulty was being able to keep balance and not to fall with almost no power in the hands. Speed was a bit higher with RX2 7.8 sail + 70 cm fin +63 kg pal combo than my RS2 8.2 sail + 41 cm fin + 65 kg. Pointing was suprisingly similar.

2) 10.6 versus 7.3 sails : did a quick drag race between my 10.6 sail + 70 cm fin + woody Serenity against a cambered 7.3 sail + 70 cm fin + Sport Tech Serenity. Wind was around 1-3 knots with super flat and glassy water. No surprise, big sail rules : faster and better pointing upwind (due to better daggerfin&#39;s grip at higher speed probably).

In higher 5-7 knots wind, I tried to move fore or aft on the deck to check for speed difference. No wonder, when both feet were resting behind the carry handle, speed was a bit higher (nose higher with less wetted hull surface) and when resting in front of the carryhandle, speed was a bit lower (nose lower with more wetted hull surface; on some rare and extreme case, the nose did pearl and went submarine, lukily without any braking effect).

Same with different rolling angle : don&#39;t overdo it, it&#39;s slower when the foampad cover starts to dig into water, best attitude is slightly banking the leeward rail with water just touching the red stripe painting runing along the entire woody hull.

So far to me, a big sail is making such board fun and truly enjoyable in very light wind (1-7 knots). Didn&#39;t dare to test it with a small sail in higher wind, however, nor did I test the Glide 7.5 rig combo yet.

3) harness hook : correct, pull myself and twist at the last second (both hands on hull or hands on hull and mast).

4) 3 pals (range 63-98 kg) that tried the Serenity were all advanced to expert level so far. No intermediate or beginner level witnessed so far, sorry about that.

Here are my feelings about skills required for such a board :
Uphauling the sail : easy;
Tacking : easy (easier when oversheeting the sail just a sec before tacking; it&#39;s way lot harder to tack a shortboard BTW);
Sailing upwind, close and deep reaching : easy;
Sailing downwind and jibing : the board is becoming tippy and challenging to balance (this is my real concern for a beginner)...

Can you demo the board at your location by any chance ?

Cheers !

JM

Jay
6th June 2007, 01:48 PM
JM, thanks for all that input, very helpufl.

It will also be intersting to hear your thoughts when you do get around to trying your 7.5 Glide vs 10. The supersized power plus small & light packaging of the glide may be the most user friendly of all as Roger suggested.

On transitional boards I&#39;ve sailed, during tacking I frequently oversheet and that does make it easier. On those boards however, the foot of the sail often catches on the footstraps and/or CB knob - there will be no such problem with the Serenity!

I&#39;m really glad you&#39;re having so much fun with your board. Thanks again for sharing all your experiences!

Jay

Guest
8th June 2007, 05:22 AM
Recently, on one of the Sports networks, I caught an overhead and side view of an America Cup racer. It looked ALOT like the Serenity.

Clark Robbins,
Montreal

Screamer
8th June 2007, 04:32 PM
Jay
With regard to your question will it be suitable for you, I suggest that you find some old Div2 board (Olympic Lechner) and try it. I don&#39;t know if there are any where you live, but ask in your local club or some older racers. With its barrel bottom I think it&#39;ll give you a good idea how a Serenity will feel.
While we&#39;re at it, I would like to see a retractable daggerboard (centerfin, whatever) in 2008 Serenity. Just like div2 boards, it would give them more performance downwind/gybing. Coupled with more modest length, and I might consider buying one.