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Guest
23rd July 2007, 02:53 PM
Hi
Is there really a heavyweights (100k +)waveboarddesigned for just that ?
Seems to me the big wave boards (not boards for big waves) are compromised to gain mass market appeal.
For example K107 ?? (Cross over)(RRD FSW110 same)
But there isn`t an Evo 107 ?
I know argument is big wave boards dont work but its normally small testers deciding so ?
Suspect its more to do with diminishing returns on what would become a very specialised board.
What is biggest "real" wave board ???
Evo 91 ? Would give me 20 litres negative buoyancy. Sort of like a 70 kg bloke on 50 litres ??? Thats best on market at moment ???:@

Happy
23rd July 2007, 03:54 PM
There will be an Evo 100 coming out soon. Maybe that would fit your bill?

Ola_H
23rd July 2007, 06:29 PM
Right. Guest, hold your breath until aug 15 and we will tell you everything about the new big wave board. Definitely no compromises...

A note on volume relative weight: It seems that bigger sailors are often on relatively smaller boards and vice versa. I'm not 100% sure why, but since it applies to amateurs and pros alike, I think its its a kind of physical fact (probably something to do with planing area and such things). But even if you just compare volumes, it is the ratio of the volume of the board and the weight of you and your gear (say 20 kg). A 100l board for you (110 kg?) would mean a ratio of 100/130=0,77 which equate me (70kg) riding a 70 liter board (which actually is a good all round size for me which works in pretty light winds too).

Guest
23rd July 2007, 10:12 PM
Hi Ola
Agree with your ratio idea but your calculation assumes a constant "rig/board/suit/harness" weight which is why your maths appears to help heavier sailor.
In actual fact heavier sailor would (all things being equal) have
a) heavier board b) bigger sail/heavier rig c) a larger wetsuit holding more water.

Looking forward to seeing new board but suspect at 100litres it will be on small side for me.(Depends on other factors too)

By experience I feel 105 is about my practical (optimum) minimum.(My all up sailing weight will be approaching 130k (including board weight)

Guest
24th July 2007, 01:27 AM
Its a bit OT but perhaps we will see the day when sailors buy different boards but of same volume.(possible now)
Volume really is very sailor dependant and not necessarily condition.
Look at isonic range ; low volume high width big sails high speeds. (and good weight carriers)
In years to come volume might well be purely rider dependant. Other design elements decide what use board is put to. Going that way now !?

RRD FSW 110probably biggest/nearest to wave board. Exocet cross 106 ??? And I think if you check exocet site they do a pure wave of 105 litres. (Bet its slow though)

Ola_H
24th July 2007, 03:46 AM
Right, assuming a constant gear weight is an approximation, but even using real gear weight for the light and heavy sailor respectively, the ratio calculation would yield that a heavier sailor "needs" less "added volume" than a lighter one.

But regardless, there is a lot more than volume that matters and the new EVO is developed specifically to be a real wave board for heavier people that want a bit of "extra board" under them.

Floyd
24th July 2007, 04:35 AM
Sorry Ola dont agree with that.
Same ratio will give same flotation regardless of rider weight.By definition it must. I also think (by observation) that given equal volume/load ratio heavier sailor will plane up later because he`s also going to have a worse power to weight ratio from rig (initially) until drag takes over.Heavier sailor will have a better power to drag ratio but lighter one a better power to weight. Its why heavier sailors set faster speeds but lighter ones plane earlier. (even given equal volume to weight ratios)
Anyways
My point.Often thought its the wave sailor who needs that bit of extra flotation.Wind shadows on waves ; getting through shore break etc but historically its always been wave boards are smallest.
Slalom sailor; once powered up; is unlikely to need extra flotation.Think its a lot to do with market inertia.
I do agree with guest re we will (perhaps do now) be buying boards of same volume for different disciplines.
If a sailor needs 95 litres its prettty irrelevant as to wether he (or she) is sailing slalom; freestyle or wave.
Personally I like a bit more reserve volume in wave board but I`m a very poor wave sailor. Flat water blasting you hardly need any !! Its already happening.(Missile 64 litres.Dave White 125 kg)
Kombat 106 is a great heavies wave board.(Should be power box though !!!???)
PS Dunkerbeck uses 97 litres in his wave board ! (Until its howling) I think he`s 95kg.:p

Ola_H
24th July 2007, 02:33 PM
Floyd. Yes, in an absolute standstill, how far you sink (or how "high" you float) is a matter of the volume to total weight ration only. But my point is that when it comes to sailing the thing, volume is only one part of the equation and a pretty small one too. Even far, far below the planing threshold, dynamic effects of the surface area of the board will help it not sink. And for planing sailing the volume does not matter much at all (other than as a general guide for board _size_).

That wave boards are small depends on that it is simply difficult to put in a lot of volume in a board and keep it performing on a wave. So, wave sailors simply learn how to handle small boards. Slalom boards could be pretty small, people that ride the iS50 speed often testifies it works in surprisingly low wind speeds if you just ensure you never loose planing. But for practical slalom sailing you will loose planing now and then and then some reserve volume will help you accelerate from faster which is crucial. It is especially helpful when you are carrying a big and heavy sail (like a cammed 8.0 sail).

But it is an interesting question wether one given sailor could choose all his boards in similar sizes with just different designs. I talked to Jason Polakow a while ago. He said "all my boards are between 73 and 76 liters". Same with Levi Siver. Not much variation. That goes for quite a few of the wave sailing pros that use custom boards. It is more difficult to do with production stuff but i recently sold my Acid 74 to a guy already owning a EVO 74 and he is super happy with his quiver and the two boards fills different roles for him. The pros that are on production boards tend to use a much wider span of sizes (like 75-85-95 or 70-80-90 for an 85kg sailor) and its very much a matter of taste and style how big boards they use on a given set of conditions.

In practice most of us tends to want some extra volume in our light wind boards though and using the "Polakov model" would probably not be the best thing for most of us.

But when everything is said and done, what matter is what a given board is designed to do. You could probably build a super light wind slalom board for a light weight sailor around 70-80 liters, but with the available designs, even a light weight is likely to be more effective on the iS101. That is what I also meant with my comment on the new EVO. For a performance wave boards, there is a lot of volume in there but maybe more importantly is that many other design elements of the board has been adjusted to fit the criteria which is "an effective performance wave board for heavier sailors" (ie not _primiarily_ a super floater for semi-heavy guys).

Floyd
24th July 2007, 04:18 PM
Hi Ola
Totally agree with everything you say; and very well put.
One thing I would like to point out though is the fact that the characteristics you put into a board (flat rocker/width/wide tail etc) to enable a board to perform well for a heavyweight will be the exact things to cause the board problems when used at limit .An extra 5 lites volume to give beneficial float will have less effect for a really heavy bloke when using board on limit.An extra couple of cm in width certainly will.(Width effects are non-linear; faster you go more effect they have. Volume is constant)
Fifteen years ago I sailed biggest wave board available at time (85 litres). Everyone then said that was limit for wave a board. (It was more to with size of blanks available and limite dmarket for "big" wave boards.)
We`v:De reached point now where Freestyle Waves upto 110 litres are on market; but all these boards (FSW`s)will function for lighter sailors;(used in different modes.) purely to make boards attractive to a big enough market to be succesfull.
An EVO 107 will only ever sell to 100k+ wave sailors.And there just aren`t enough of them to warrant building a board. When someone says a big wave board does not work ask them
a) Have they tried?
b) How heavy they are?
The are no scientific reasons to say a 110 litre wave board will not work. It will work but will need 110kg load on it.And *B would only sell a dozen or so of them.
Take care.
Floyd
Besides Kombats are fine (But should have PB)

:p

Ola_H
24th July 2007, 06:24 PM
Pretty much agree, except that adding volume (by adding thickness) actually does more to a boards performance than most people think. I've sailed boards that were pretty much identical except for thickness and the thinner board always feels better and especially at the control limit the thickness hurts. It creates extra leverage for the chop, sort of. So again, making a heavy weights wave board (that will function as an all round wave board for them, ie has an as big range as possible, including good stuff) is about changing lots of small things. Its not only scaling up, not only adding width, not only adding thickness, not only, adjusting the rocker and bottom shape etc. Its a combination of all of the above.

But you are right in that one problem is that too few has tried to make such boards. Even the "blown up" wave boards that some of the best custom shapers make does not really look that good. I think it's a matter of to few good enough big blokes around to test the boards and drive the development. Thats why it is very good to have Antoine in the team now.

Regarding making a 107 instead of the soon to be revealed 100, well maybe if would be better for some, but before making judgement, have a look at the 100 - live. It is BIG piece of performance wave board.

As for the Kombats, they are probably the most wave oriented fsw boards on the market with rockers and v taken directly from the Pure Acids, with thin rails etc etc. There is just a bit more tail and nose relative the widths (+ extra footstrap positions) if you compare with the Acids. So, no surprise they work well in waves and (like the Acids) they especially come alive in a bit faster waves.

Floyd
25th July 2007, 06:04 PM
Getting a higher volume board from a board we know works well is one of the few places where the maths works for us.For example if you took an EVO 90 and made every dimension (width; depth and length) just 2% larger. (ie increase sizes by a factor of 1.02) then the volume would be increaded by just over 6%. (Volume ratio increase would be 1.02 cubed or 1.061) (Explanation ;not a maths lesson; sorry)
As increases are bigger so the volume increase is proportionally bigger.
So to get a 105 litre EVO we would only have to enlarge a 90`s dimensions by 5% (Approx, it would come out at 104 litres)
Now I`m not saying that board would work; probably in the mix of things it wouldn`t; but my point is the volume increase is the easiest to achieve)
IMO its just that the market doesn`t want enough EVO 105`s (At the moment; but the sailing population as a whole is getting older and fatter so you never know ???:@ It might happen ? Is the average wave sailor getting heavier ??? (They reckon 4 kilo`s per decade is the norm???)B) Look over last decade; wave board max size(litres) has gone up by about same ???Coincidence or marketing ???
Floyd

Ian Fox
25th July 2007, 07:47 PM
Roll on August ..

:)

mark h
26th July 2007, 05:42 AM
Evo 100, advertised in this months Boards Mag. Might be tempted myself, its about time I learned how to wave sail, at 100kg, the Evo 100 might be just job (but after I'v got my new iSonic's).
;)

Ian Fox
26th July 2007, 08:28 AM
Roll on Boards Mag

and August !!

;)

Ola_H
26th July 2007, 02:38 PM
How to "scale up" boards is an issue I'm very interested in and I've been talking to many shapers about it. Most agree that just linear scaling does not seem to work that well. Of course, a 1.02 scaled up board would not be a disaster but if the original was "magic" the upscaled variant would probably not remain magic. If you look around, very few boards actually are scaled variants of another board. Instead each version is carefully developed in its own right and tested against lots of different protos as well as its predecessor if there is one. If you look at the 2007 Pure Acid range, the Kombat range and the EVO range, you will find that despite there being a common design concept within each range, each board has its own set of parameters and unique shape because that was what worked for that particular size. Same thing goes for any 08 addition...

BTW, one thing that does happen when you scale up a board is that the curvature changes. The rocker measured in millimeters would increase (linearly), but the curvature would actually decrease by the inverse of the scaling factor (math at work again...).

Guest
27th July 2007, 09:15 AM
More details, please !:)

Ola_H
30th July 2007, 02:32 PM
Specific details on the big EVO will happily be discussed on aug 15...

Guest
31st July 2007, 01:32 AM
Did Antoine have a lot of input on the larger EVOs? I remember you saying (someplace) that he can now plane up at the same time as Boujmaa (of course Antoine is on larger wave gear!). So the larger gear has helped level the playing field?

Ola_H
31st July 2007, 03:01 PM
Antoine was certainly a part of the development team around the new big EVO and it is he was extremely happy about it when I talked to him in Guincho. This is when he said that he could now plane as early as the light guys. So yeah, maybe that board is helping to level the playing field.

Guest
2nd August 2007, 12:25 AM
Try dunckerbecks Thommen/Proof design... thats a nice board for heavy riders...

WSguy
3rd August 2007, 05:39 PM
Living in the New England area, I find this discussion of wave boards similar to those about powder skis. Since we see little of either, we rarely buy either style equipment exclusively for what it is intended. I'm not so sure practicality demands specialized equipment.

Ola_H
3rd August 2007, 06:53 PM
Hey, its only a few hour down to the alps. Plenty of english people (with powder skis) there. And surely you get good wave conditions in England more often than you get good powder skiing.

You probably get similar conditions in England as we get in Sweden, and here plenty of people are still better of on specialized wave gear simply because wave sailing is their priority. If all round/crossover performance is your priority, of course a Kombat is a better choice.

Unregistered
8th February 2008, 05:21 AM
how about some bigger volme boards for us bigger guys. im 220 to 230 lbs.

Unregistered
8th February 2008, 05:24 AM
hi guys could you incrase your wave oard volumesyo 135 to 140 ltrs

Unregistered
8th February 2008, 05:29 AM
bigger volume wave boards for us here in nh with lighter winds to play with

Unregistered
8th February 2008, 12:16 PM
The only really big waveboard I am aware of is the KONA Minitanker. I believe it has some 120 liters of volume at 65 cm of width.

PG

Unregistered
24th February 2008, 01:02 AM
Witchcraft 104 litre, 64.5 wide.
real big guys wave board.

matt12
24th February 2008, 04:14 AM
Obviously the flotation capacity of a board is based on the displacement characteristics not the volume (unless the board is fully submerged!).

So you could have a board with 5L (yes just 5 litres) that would float 300kg or rider & rig weight ... however the board would have a similar shape to a small aluminium dinghy!

Not quite a realistic comparison for a windsurfing board but the principle remains the same. ie a board with an extra 20L with a big domed top surface could provide the same flotation as a board with 20L less a flat top surface.

Bill
24th February 2008, 09:15 PM
Think volume, rocker, width, your skill level and local conditions.

A wider board is a heavy weights friend.

I believe your best option is a custom board.

A custom shaper will shape a board not only for your weight but also your skill level and local conditions.

Good luck.

matt12
25th February 2008, 01:44 PM
I guess the disadvantage of a custom board is that you only get one shot at getting a decent shape. Fingers crossed.

Even the best shapers in the world still need to refine & polish designs to continuously improve before being blessed as a production boards.

Fingers crossed your custom boards turns out to be a good shape otherwise it could be an expensive mistake. Probably 50-50 I reckon.

Bill
25th February 2008, 07:23 PM
I guess the disadvantage of a custom board is that you only get one shot at getting a decent shape. Fingers crossed.

Even the best shapers in the world still need to refine & polish designs to continuously improve before being blessed as a production boards.

Fingers crossed your custom boards turns out to be a good shape otherwise it could be an expensive mistake. Probably 50-50 I reckon.

I believe when it comes to wave boards especially for very heavy or very light people custom is definitely the way to go.

A wave board is a very personal board type that is heavily influenced by the riders' style, his skill and the type of waves he is going out in as well as his weight.

Just look at the number of different surf board designs and the majority of them are custom.

How many PWA wave sailors use a production board ?

I feel it is rather harsh to suggest that a custom wave board has only a 50-50 chance of being a success.

WILDWINDSCA
1st March 2008, 01:39 AM
I guess the disadvantage of a custom board is that you only get one shot at getting a decent shape. Fingers crossed.

Even the best shapers in the world still need to refine & polish designs to continuously improve before being blessed as a production boards.

Fingers crossed your custom boards turns out to be a good shape otherwise it could be an expensive mistake. Probably 50-50 I reckon.

I guess the best thing is get the board you think you need after much deliberation and advice and try to adapt to it.
The relevancy of board tests, however questionable, can give good advice IMHO. Case and point , i tried the naish global wave 87 and i hated, but then tried the acid 86 loved it. Windsurfing magazine tested the global and while not testing the acid, for me hit the global on the head of the nail.( i read the review AFTER i had sailed it for three days and couldnt dial it in ) It stated among other things , the global was best suited to very good wavesailors that could tweak the performance of this board, a "very good" wave sailor i'd say, I am not.

The naish is some cool looking kit and would i have listened to this review if i could not have ridden it and had wanted to buy it , i think i would have taken note.
( To add i also sailed the JP freestyle wave , the Starboard kombat actual same sizes tested in windsurf mag , a few day each . i read the reviews after and again they seemed very close!!)
I think we all look at new kit and drool and fantasize about the sessions we are going to have it on it . Its what i call the "bowflex mental buy in" ( for all non north americans, bowflex is a home gym you can buy , with infomercials all over the tele and damn good looking uber fit people using it ) we see pictures, videos of the uber "pros" using stuff: we buy in as we see ourselves in their place.
Real world situtaions without the hype arent as fantastic, but for all the psychology and i agree: talking kit , researching and getting the new kit is still DAMN exciting.

Bill
1st March 2008, 02:08 AM
The relevancy of board tests, however questionable, can give good advice IMHO.

The guy weighs over 100 kgs.

There are no wave board tests that cater for that weight of sailor.

Thatís when a custom board really comes into itís own.

Tell the shaper your weight, skill, style, wave location, etc and you will get a board tailored for your own unique sailing.