View Full Version : Severne Code:Red R2 vs MauiSails TR-3 vs Hansen Formula HCL
26th July 2007, 06:47 PM
That is the question, which one.
27th July 2007, 12:41 AM
I think the choice could be narrowed to between the MauiSails TR-3 and the Hansen Formula HCL sails. However, I have to admit to exclusively sailing Bill Hansen's designs since 1986, so my view might be considered a bit prejudiced in nature. I have two new sails (5.6 Wave and 7.1 FreeRace) with the HCL neoprene leech panels, and while I haven't yet tried the 7.1, the 5.6 is a fantasic sail with tons of range. Although your focus point is formula sailing, I think that you would find that the HCL panels offer an innovative approach to leech dynamics.
If I wasn't so dedicated to Hansen's work, I would unquestionably go with Barry Spanier's sails. If one was to weigh in the amount of experience these two guys have racked up over time, there are very few, if any, in the business that have such strong credentials to offer. Also, I really feel that both Hansen and Spanier are truly customer focused and actively involved at the grassroots level. These guys aren't distant corporate employees that are buried deep in the structure of some mega company where corporate marketing and hype prevails. These guys are the real thing. Also, one only has to look a bit closer to recognize that the folks that are an integral part of their companies are incredibly talented and dedicated too.
Overall, I think the Hansen Sails and MauiSails brands are offering no nonsense products that reflect outstanding design excellence. Although it could be argued that there designs are a bit understated when compared to the some of the flashy graphics associated with many of the market leaders, don't let that fool you. Looks are only skin deep. Think quality instead.
As a final note, whatever brand you decide on, buy the recommended masts. Also, do yourself a favor and buy the MauiSails carbon boom to perfect the package.
27th July 2007, 03:49 AM
Particular reasons for the three contenders? Is that what you local shop can get you (and hence what you can get support for), or is it brand loyalty of some sort? Price?
27th July 2007, 12:29 PM
(Disclaimer : obviously less than neutral standpoint from me)
I agree with Andreas, it's a slightly unusual mix of contestants, and a fairly detailless question for a complex comparison, but if we're going to meaningfully rate or rank one over the other, probably best to keep the focus of discussion objective.
"distant corporate employees that are buried deep in the structure of some mega company where corporate marketing and hype prevails" ??
Cheers ~ Ian
28th July 2007, 01:12 AM
Of course what I said is infinitely arguable, and one might say it's way too subjective in nature, but personal opinion is much like that. Regarding the statement you highlighted from my comments, I can say from my personal experiences that Hansen and Spanier are there for customers like me. They have both proven this to me, and I appreciate the extra effort and grassroots focus that they bring to the table. Being part of relatively small companies, compared with some of mega companies involved in the business, these guys are just more down to earth and accessable overall. All the marketing and advertising in the world is no substitute for direct communications and customer focus.
I have to admit that most all of my business goes to the small operations where personal communications are possible with the core figures involved. I guess I could buy sails from Neil Pryde, North or another large firm where there is little chance of direct contact and communications, but I'm looking for more.
To be fair, there are others in the business that offer the kind of personal approach and interest I'm looking for. Bruce Peterson of Sailworks comes to mind right away, as all my past business contacts with him have been excellent. His sail designs could easily be one of the choices here. I'm sure that other folks here could offer their special preferences based on their experiences and contacts. But, when it comes to choice, I think most decisions and directions in life are grounded more in subjectively, rather than objectivity. So, with all due respect, I don't believe much can be achieved here through strict objectivity. In my opinion, it's just too dry an approach, and not necessarily more meaningful overall. How does one objectively evaluate style and class?
28th July 2007, 08:00 PM
I don't have experience on ALL these sails, but on Maui Sails only. From that restricted view I agree totally with SteveC's ideas about the Maui Sails company and Barry Spanier. Don't know about others but Barry proves totally supportive of customers, answers on the MS forum in a detailed and careful way, is glad to listen to what customers think, has the greatest experience one can think of (actually he invented or developed a good deal of the devices we are using during decades of work). And this all shows in his designs.
Going for the big famous brands in my view would mean: 1) no performance added, at all! 2) losing the chance of receiving good gentle detailed first hand support, 3) paying an higher price, 4) going along with the mass.
29th July 2007, 05:28 AM
What a lot of BS !!
Is Severne a big famous brand ??????????
Barry was 3 years late with a wide sleeve sail, cause he didnt listen to his customers.
Phil and Kevin always were an custom sails with tweaked battens, cams, and tons of different masts.
Code Red performs as good as NP,North Gaastra, is super easy rigged, best cam rotation of all brands this year, and looks cool.
Masts dont brake and Ben, Jesper are nice guys.
Hansen is not available where I live, and TR3 was not possible to test before buying, so I took the Code Red R2, cause I have good exp. with other Severne sails/masts - and I am stoked.
If some has experiance with TR3 and Hansen and Code Red it would be nice to hear about the differences in performance/handlig.
Gaastra Grind: 4,2-4,7-5,0-5,4 ; Nitro 4 9,0; N3 10,4
Severne Gator 5,0- 6,5; S2 6,4 Code Red R2 6,1 - 7,7
North Wharp and ART Ellypse : 4,7 -5,3
NP RX2 5,8 -6,2
Boards: K 96; AE 127, FE 160; Go 180; Fanatic Skate 100
29th July 2007, 08:00 AM
I'll make it short. It was never my intent to get too negative about the other sail brands out there, particularly anything directly concerning Severne Sails. Really, it's about personal viewpoint and opinion, and what appeals to our needs and expectations. More importantly, I readily welcome a broad range of opinion that might be offered here.
I'm glad that LK finds synergy in his possibilities and choices. Still though, I would hope that we don't have to actively crash and burn different opinions that might differ than ours.
31st July 2007, 05:58 AM
Thank you very much for your replies but I afraid that question take a wrong way. I dont want to talk about the brand or the company of those sails, I would like to talk about the specifications of this sails.
For me the best one is the Hansen Formula HCL because it has 10 battens and 6 cams and I think it will have the most control for the battens and powerfull for the cams and 6 specifically-tuned HCLTM elastic inserts will give a very range of wind. In the other side are Severne Code: Red R2 (8 battens and 4 cams) and MauiSails (9 battens and 5 cams).
P.D. Sorry about my English.
31st July 2007, 04:38 PM
the fact that Barry was late introducing the wide sleeve in his designs does not mean he is not listening, just that he has his own ideas. And I think there is absolutely nothing wrong if such a sail designer bases his designs on his own experience and ideas rather than on those of customers. By the way, the wide luff in the TR-3 was introduced in order to solve film wrinkling problems due to the peculiar mast bend/luff curve of Maui Sails.
I think that batten and cam count is a wrong way to make a refined choice among race sails. I mean that there could be design features more important than batten count. Sails may have different attitudes. I recently tried Gaastra's Vapor and GTX (slalom sizes) and I can tell you they have a distinct attitude, similar between them, way different from the TR-3. By the way, the 7 battens 3 cams GTX surprised me for its unexpectedly nice stability.
2nd August 2007, 09:08 PM
Ha Ha Ha Geo !!!!
Just filmwrinkling problems ?
Do you believe in Santa too ?
A lot of racers on Gaastra asked for a widesleeve cause the problems of lightwindperformance with the last Nitros.
They were fast and stabel in poweret konditions but they sucked in min. konditions for heavy riders (most Formula Racers are)
If you worked with diff. mast/cam/batten konfiguration you could improof them, but who has all this tool to play with in the garage ? for diff. sizes ?
The sail should work as you buy it, with the OK mast.
I think the TR3 is a very good sail. If I get a testride and it works fine, I maybe buy one. So no kriticisme of the TR3 here from me.
3rd August 2007, 01:20 PM
I personally owned two TR-2s last season, and own two TR-3s this one, in slalom sizes. No experience on formula sizes. What I say is based on my personal experience, on some logic and on what Barry said, all things I tend to trust in more than voices heard through the grapevine.
TR-2s and TR-3s have a different character from other designs, in being perfectly stable yet soft. I understand that one used to more explosive response may think that both, and expecially the TR-2, are not so powerful; this IMvvvHO is wrong. One just has to wait a brief time until the sail reacts and finds its right shape; with other sails, the sail may get the right shape instantly, but one has to be careful to always keep it in the right position. I prefer the soft forgiving feel of Barry's designs, expecially considering I am neither BD nor AA, and can understand that others may prefer it different.
I can understand that one, seeing the difference between TR-2s and other sails both in sleeve width and in behaviour, may tend to think that the things are related; but this does not mean that power really depends on sleeve width alone.
TR-2s have bad wrinkling problems due to lots of curve in the lower part of the sleeve, necessary in order to use the peculiar Barry's mast bends. The wide sleeve solved this perfectly in the TR-3.
Barry always denied the influence of wide sleeve in itself to obtain higher power; and AFAIK there is actually no aerodynamic reason to explain any power improvement from a wider sleeve; rather, maybe some less drag, but it is disputable. To my eyes wide sleeve was born as the usual marketing "bells and whistles" feature, which serendipitously led to easier rigging, less stress on the film panels and some better stability because of the sleeve's higher tension. Different going from TR-2s to TR-3s, as along and with the wider sleeve and beside it there were also introduced huge design changes.
I don't find the TR-3 much more powerful compared to the TR-2; I think it is just quicker to react, probably due to higher sleeve tension, and even better self adjusting. Oh, I don't need to tell you how great it is, as you already tested it and know by yourself. And I do perfectly agree with you in that sails must work properly right out of the bag.
6th August 2007, 06:08 AM
Concern over the creases in the narrow luff sail was a contributing factor in going with the wide sleave design for the TR3. I think if you search mauisails forum you will find many posts from TR1 and 2 owners happy with the sails but having issues with creases in the monofilm from rigging. To Barrys credit he lisened to his customers and made changes.
6th August 2007, 12:30 PM
Of course he could have just used the cams with the rollers on the outside like North and Naish use. The Tr-2 sleeve is more than wide enough for rigging with these cams.
Maybe it was because they were getting their arse kicked by all the wide sleeve sails around the race course and could not sell narrower sleave sails anymore?
6th August 2007, 03:00 PM
During last season Maui Sails had 1 only racer in the Slalom 42 World Tour, using narrow luff TR-2s; he finished 3rd, amidst a huge bunch of NP, North and Gaastra users, including Albeau, Buzianis, Maynard... by the way, most of them are at least 10 kg. heavier than KP. This really does not seem getting one's arse kicked.
Cams with rollers on the outside would not have solved the creasing problem. Most damage happened when de-rigging actually, as when letting go the downhaul the mast would straighten up abruptly messing up the film in the center of the sail.
By sure the market was asking for wide sleeves, but this does not mean it was right. Not performance wise, at least.
6th August 2007, 07:34 PM
It's ok GEO, we all know you have pictures of Barry hanging all over your bedroom
8th August 2007, 04:29 AM
Can't you just reply with anything on topic?
8th August 2007, 09:03 PM
So that's a yes then
9th August 2007, 06:02 PM
Why all this hype about balance power, cam stability, new ideas of luff curve of wide sleeve, leading edge, faster, more responsive, better top speed ????????
Only reason was to avoid greasing the sail !
Taken from the MauiSails site
The TR-3 is the result of a no holds barred attitude with the goal to explore the outer boundaries of Race Sail Design with a team of extremely fast sailors pushing the lift vs. drag threshold to new heights every time a new prototype hits the water. Relentless, ongoing development on the Maui Sails TR Race Program is at the very core which defines us as a sail brand in windsurfing.
For 2007, the TR-3 takes a bold new direction with a wide sleeve which results in easier rigging and exceptional balance and power that continues Maui Sails success on Race Courses worldwide.
Focusing on new ideas in the luff curve of a wide sleeve on the leading edge and the dynamic relationship to the body tension results in a TR-3 that is lighter, faster at all points of sail, more responsive and quicker out of the turns with better low end torque. In essence; all the attributes to win races and push the speed envelope are built into the new TR-3. Of course, when the Maui Sails Design Team is offered a no holds barred challenge, the end result is always about coming in first.
NEW Technical Features for the TR-3 ’07
• New wide sleeve for increased cam stability and easier rigging
• New luff curve and integrated body shaping increase top end speed and stability.
All these design features sound like NP, North, Gaastra, when introducing the wide sleeve.
When working with a wide sleeve you get some new parameters to work with, and that’s what Barry found out too. And because he is a skilled sail maker/designer he found his own way to balance with sleeve width, downhaul tension, tension/stability in the sail/shape and mast reflex.
Wide sleeve is not just wide sleeve. It helps to stabilise cam, shape and more, but increases weight, and can counteract mast reflex. Everything is a compromise, also the wide sleeve.
We are not finished with the development of the wide sleeve yet. How wide in what parts of the sail ?? so the whole foil can work, flex where flex is good, and stable, shape/profile where this is good.
And Barry is now(good for the competition), and Hansen maybe too, a part of the game too.
Wide sleeve nothing to do with aerodynamics ???
Increased cam/foil stability when sailing, less drag, resulting in a faster more stable sail, sounds like better dynamic aerodynamics in my ears, doesn’t it?
Geo ! when reading your posts, you experience improvements from TR2 to TR3 which only can be related to improved aerodynamics, so I wonder why you still hold on to your “only greasing” argument.
Is it so bad to say that Barry made a better performing sail based on the wide sleeve ?
It just tells us that Barry still is an innovative person, and his sails worth to buy.
Regarding my own experience with Code Red R2 I have sailed 7,7 and 6,1 and they worked super.
Last years Formula Sails were top performance sails, don’t know about R2 Formula sails, but heard positive reviews about the slalom sizes.
9th August 2007, 08:35 PM
You said it.
"NEW Technical Features for the TR-3 ’07
• New wide sleeve for increased cam stability and easier rigging
• New luff curve and integrated body shaping increase top end speed and stability."
As for the rest. Stability is one thing, aerodynamics another. You can have a wonderful efficient profile which is not stable, as usually is in wave sails.
As I said, and as you report me saying, TR-3 is way better than TR-2; design has been revolutionized; this happened while introducing the wide sleeve; but not, or not necessarily, because of it.
I don't think improvements from 2 to 3 are much related to aerodynamics, but rather to how the sail reacts to wind pressure. Aerodynamics is a pretty old topic, at least at lower speeds. Anybody probably can choose a good profile according to design wind and boat speed; but IMvvvHO to build a sail that works in our harsh windsurfing environment is a different story. Barry and his team seem to me to be masters in this latter.
Of course there would be nothing "bad to say that Barry made a better performing sail based on the wide sleeve"; simply, I doubt that it would be true.
9th August 2007, 09:37 PM
Looks like you are the only (THE ONLY, cause Barry knows) guy in the world who can’t se that the huge improvement to the TR3 only was able BECAUSE of the wide sleeve.
"As for the rest. Stability is one thing, aerodynamics another. You can have a wonderful efficient profile which is not stable, as usually is wave sails;"
If you call a wave sail a wonderful efficient aerodynamic design, only lacking stability then it is easy to se why you cant se the conclusion, you yourself have written the argumentation for.
Barrys skills are better than these huge improvements just happened while removing wrinkels from the TR2, from one year to another, after leaving the narrow luff road after so many years.
10th August 2007, 12:18 AM
Outstanding products are outgrowth of many subtle design and construction influences. Really, it's hard to say any one given feature makes or breaks a product. Of course, with the introduction of something new, the marketing strategy is tweeked to highlight that new feature or concept. That only makes sense, whether or not the performance gain is minimal or great in nature. In the long run, the best concepts are retained and refined, and those that were less valuable tend to get lost over time. Looking back over the years, regardless of the brand, you can see this. Without question, I truly think that we have seen the development of better products over time.
Now, which ones should we buy? If we were all the same, we would all buy the same products. Thankfully most of us are a bit different overall, so variety thrives. That's where the idea of subjectivity that I mentioned earlier comes in and influences our directions. Personal choice and opinion don't necessarily lead us down the ultimate path, but if you're happy, life is good.
10th August 2007, 04:11 AM
you have the rare gift to understand nothing even if carefully explained with tons of patience from someone that just doesn't like quarreling. You are lucky. This is a great way to live a better life.
What I know is that a sleeve wider than "classic" older cam sail "wide" sleeves has simply no sense (or very little sense) from an aerodynamic point of view. This because a "classic" sleeve is (was) already wide enough considering the mast diameter (what counts is the relationship between sleeve width and mast diameter) to ensure the correct aerodynamic shape. Proof is 1) the fact that, despite aerodynamics is a perfectly well known subject since decades, wide sleeves have not been used since the beginning. If there was any evident aerodynamic advantage, why in your opinion wasn't it exploited until now? After all, Barry may (or may not) have his own ideas about this, but North and Neil Pryde are there since much earlier than the first modern wide luff race sail. 2) another proof is that, as you can see, some modern race sails have sleeve width varying along the mast (in a way that is not related to mast diameter). And even 3) that the narrow sleeve TR-2 did well enough to ensure podium placement to Maui Sails one and only PWA racer in '06, despite all of his competitors were on wide sleeves, including the huge number that KP was able to beat.
Barry's skills are such that, while introducing the wide sleeve on TR-3 mainly for its rigging advantages, as you can easily read in the text posted by yourself , he was able to make huge changes of a different kind leading to a vastly improved product.
Anyhow, I am not willing to defend this point any longer. I have no interest in this, and nor you should have. I rather suggest you to ask Barry directly. Only, take care to read his answers for what they are, and not for what you think they should be.
vBulletin® v3.8.6, Copyright ©2000-2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.