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View Full Version : Pure high wind freeride, 69 kg.


puclaro
20th September 2007, 04:21 PM
I was following the other thread about which pure acid is the right one for 69 kg. and bay area conditions (meet both, weight and "spot").

And the last post about the failure of the 74 in today's strong winds.. this really hurts, because is "the" big problem I have been trying to find an answer for..

My question is a little bit different:

Starboard team, which is the right board for pure freeride, no compromises on comfort (absolutely no waves, no speed, no freestyle), high wind (30 - 40 knots), and bone-breaking chop, light weight people?

A board that let's you be there.. or helps you be there

If I would like to compromise, it would be with subplaning pointing ability, because in the bay area the wind drops, and there's some current, yes.

I had the acid 77 2003, never used it in the bay, but I know it wouldn't be comfortable enough in these conditions, although it had excellent marginal, subplaning "back to home" skills..

Now I have a quatro 69 2003, wrong option, hard in the extreme shop, definitively I'm unable to make it back to the right beach when the wind drops (and we are talking about severe drops)..

Does it exist? that magic board for light weights?

Jean-Marc
20th September 2007, 06:24 PM
which is the right board for pure freeride, no compromises on comfort (absolutely no waves, no speed, no freestyle), high wind (30 - 40 knots), and bone-breaking chop, light weight people?

For my 65 kg, the best so far is an Acid 62 (2003-2004).

Quick to planing, fast, always on top control and top comfort in epic conditions, goes upwind surprisingly well in dead onshore conditions, huge wind range for hardcore freeriding/B&J/wave riding: I'm using it from 20 up to 40-45 knots with 5.4/4.7/4.2/3.6/3.3 m2 sails. True, when wind drops, I'm sinking up to waist level, but that's the price to pay for a truly radical board. There is nothing better than a narrow board for a lightweight hardcore freerider in nuke conditions IMHO (e.g., the Evo 62 is too wide for my taste).

Sorry, never tried a Pure Acid 68 yet. I'll leave it to Ola to compare Acid 62 and PA 68.

Cheers !

JM

Ola_H
20th September 2007, 11:59 PM
While both the PA68 and EVO 62 are VERY nice for lots of wind, I personally think the PA74 handles it well enough and offers just the volume margin needed. I even used a 4.0 on my Kombat 79 a few days ago and that was OK to. I think it has a lot to do with getting comfortable on the board you decide to ride and get the trim right so you can trust the board.

But if you really want freerider for high wind only, the PA68 will be great. Just like its bigger siblings, it has a shape that works great in a freeride setting and no doubt it will require less determination than the PA74 in powerd up 3.3 conditions. Its fast planing too, so as long as you have reasoble power its an easy board to ride. But as you say yourself, if the wind dies, 68 liters will make for a more difficult ride home.

puclaro
21st September 2007, 12:26 AM
Thanks for the answers, yeah, that's the point, no doubt a 68-69 lts. with the right shape (not the quatro, that probably is too pure wave) will behave sweet in the upper winds, but for sure missing some volume when it drops, or maybe some vee? maybe some length?

The thing is, it seems today everything is wide, short, single concave, fast rockered.. are these characteristics the opposite for high wind freeride comfort plus subplaning survival ability?

Narrow, longer, heavy vee, tail rocker.. are those the characteristics that would make the dream board, allowing for extra volume and extra subplaning tracking ability without losing high wind comfort?

Ola, from your reply it seems there's no *board from today that would fit this need, do you know if some past model will do it? Still is possible to look for them.. and that's the board I need the most..

Jean-Marc
21st September 2007, 12:59 AM
The Evo 62 is a very nice board for subplaning ability on a straight line. It kept planing better than the Acid 62 once hitting a hull, mainly owing to its width. However, it's not as comfortable as a narrow board such as an Acid 62 : it does yield a bumpy ride when chop gets nasty in nuke conditions. Same with a HiTech wave 8'6" (259 x 56 cm x 36 cm OFO x 80 L) : it's way too wide and bumpy with say a 3.6 sail. Width alone is not the main criteria, however. Forgiving rails with a razor sharp tail block helps a lot in keeping comfort (and control).

I guess your best bet is to try to demo a PA 68 (or even the PA 74 of Davide) if you want to discover the magic board for you and your conditions. In order to find the good compromise and ideal blend of specific requirements among many (and sometimes antinomic) characteristics is unfortunately (and only) done by objective testing.

Cheers !

JM

Ola_H
21st September 2007, 02:52 AM
Ola, from your reply it seems there's no *board from today that would fit this need, do you know if some past model will do it? Still is possible to look for them.. and that's the board I need the most..

The most control oriented Starboard from "my time" was the 2003 Acid 70 and the 2004 Acid 74 (similar shapes). I seriously don't think they would make better high wind freeriders than the current PAs though. And one problem is that to get something really controllable in super high wind, you pretty much _have_ to reduce volume. I personally don't feel length help and then, if you reduce width your stuck with lots of thickness if you want to keep volume and thickness is really bad for control.

But I have a bit hard to perfectly relate to this as I really think that for freeride stuff, the PA74 will handle a huge amount of wind at my weight. When I'm freeriding, I want to be a bit on the edge. It different when you're riding waves because 1. you need much more control once on the wave and 2. if some pats of the sailing is open ocean, you can't afford this require to much power since you need to save this for the riding part (which takes a lot of power in high wind). For Wave riding, I don't like the PA 74 with sails smaller than say 4.2 and my preferred board is the EVO 62 (over the PA68) _because_ of its much shorter length which gets blow around less and more control oriented bottom shape. But for blasting only, i've yet to find the limit of the PA74. Its not only that I can take more when I'm not in the waves, its also how sail the board, ie more "flat out, let it fly style". The PA74 is one of these shapes that just get more stable the more you charge it. If I didn't wave sail, i don't think I would have a smaller board. But then again, these things - as everything - are very personal. I never liked the Acid 62 that much, but JM loves it.

I think you should try to sail a pA74 and see for yourself how you like it.

Jean-Marc
21st September 2007, 04:22 AM
Agree with Ola about thickness and control/comfort in heavy chop: the dedicated speed iSonic 50 board is a handfull in term of comfort/control in nasty chop even if it's super narrow. Boxy and thick rails on the tail block are no fun in these kind of conditions whereas slim, thin and razor sharp rails on the tail block of the Acid 62 are a sweet dream to my taste.

It also come down to your riding style and type of sails when blasting pedal-to-the-metal in nuke conditions. I love to be well powered up with an immediately available "power gas handle" under my back hand when hardcore blasting my Acid 62 : I'm using NP NR sails (ancestor of Search/Alpha) which are powerfull and super stable sails (rigged on SDM masts). I hate a softer sail like a NP Zone (no power in the head; all power around the boom area) or the draft's unstability/easy neutrality of a sail like a NP Core (felt absolutely gutless to me). I guess wave riding and/or straight line blasting do require different type of sails and boards. The main difficulty is to find the best combo that works best according to the style and preference of each of us. Lukily, the available choice is plenty enough to choose from (didn't like Acid 66 nor AHD MF 7'10" : slow to planing & to accelerate).

Good luck finding the magic board/sail combo of your dream...!

Cheers !

JM

puclaro
21st September 2007, 12:11 PM
Thanks, appreciate your feedback Jean-Marc and Ola. Will keep in mind the boards you both mentioned to try them as the opportunity comes.

As for riding style, it seems our approach is different, I use hot superfreak, and don't mind the blasting part, over 30 while staying still for seconds after waterstart, enjoying the view and watching what's around you.. going ahead for long times out of the straps while sheeting out, neutralizing.. it's fine

Will try the PA74 for sure, sounds interesting..

davide
21st September 2007, 12:31 PM
Thanks, appreciate your feedback Jean-Marc and Ola. Will keep in mind the boards you both mentioned to try them as the opportunity comes.

As for riding style, it seems our approach is different, I use hot superfreak, and don't mind the blasting part, over 30 while staying still for seconds after waterstart, enjoying the view and watching what's around you.. going ahead for long times out of the straps while sheeting out, neutralizing.. it's fine

Will try the PA74 for sure, sounds interesting..
Hi Puclaro,

I think I might have to apologize a bit because I should not have posted a comment on the Acid 74 after taking it out for the first time ever in such high winds. In those conditions:

* I needed a 3.5.-3.7 not the 4.2 I was sailing. I was so powered up that I was litterally scared to let the board go, and, as Ola remarked, slowing down is not such a good idea in those conditions. Things get really confused, sailing becomes stop and go and ... no fun. You need to let the board fly (a-la-slalom) and I was not capable of doing that with the 4.2 (I am ordering a superfreak 3.8).

* The board was set up by eye-ball (not a day to try things ... trying to survive that I was) and I don't know what the correct set up is yet (today it sort of rained and then it was 10 miles/hour).

* For the little that I was capable to enjoy the board I liked it a lot ... it felt playful on the big chop.

* When conditions get that big there might be no substitute for a Gorge-like board: 60-65 liters, e.g. my Blair ... why did I get rid of it? oh, yes I remember, in the Bay I could use it with confidence twice a year .... And this might be old school thinking, after a year on the A74 I might have changed my mind. It really looks like a board that can handle 3.5 to 5.5 ... a perfect Bay Area play-thing.

hope this help, maybe I will post more in the acid 74 thread when I get more time on the board

puclaro
21st September 2007, 12:47 PM
Thanks davide, will follow your feedback in the other thread for sure! Now just waiting for the next advisory day...

Screamer
21st September 2007, 08:59 PM
Puclaro

You've got some good advice here. Imho in Force 8 and bone breaking chop you CAN'T have a board that will bring you home in dying wind (if it does, then it won't cut it when it's howling). I thought you should be able to shlog 68 litres at your weight.

I expect my Acid74 in October, so I'll give some feedback hopefully (I'll need loads of wind though @ my 85+ kilos). I got it for the conditions where fsw crossover shapes of around 85 lit (such as Kombat) get blown off the water.

Ola wrote: "flat out, let it fly style"
Now you sound like Ian, never ease off the accelerator ;)

Bye

puclaro
22nd September 2007, 01:10 AM
Screamer, never said I can't shlog the 68-69 boards, the point is if there are better or worse shlogger boards.. try parking your car at Coyote and coming back at 3rd.. The 2003 acid 77 was good at dealing with efficient shlogging in quite low winds, and I was weighting 76 on that time, so I think the comparison is fair..

May be it's an impossible, but will keep looking for the magic board, perfect for high wind while good enough for shlog back.. if I found something will post.

Ola_H
22nd September 2007, 02:12 AM
Ola wrote: "flat out, let it fly style"
Now you sound like Ian, never ease off the accelerator ;)

Bye

Well, I have two iSonics now. Maybe i got infected by something though them...


Seriously though, sailing boards in chop is a bit like mountain biking super rough terrain. If you slow down you will get bounced around a lot and will be in for a very tiring ride. If you keep sped up you will float over things and in the end be much more in control.

But I know it not easy. I can don it well on my wave tuff because I'm so much at home on it. But when I step on my slalom stuff I'm a beginner and when it gets rough, I tend to let of and then get bounced around which makes things even worse. So, it take more that just _knowing_ how it should be done. If you are not comfortable on your gear to start with, you are unlikely to trust it enough in the right stuff.

MichaelS
23rd September 2007, 10:13 PM
I may be pushing the envelope of this thread, but how about small racesails for this type of sailing? I find that my 4.8 and 4.2 freemovesails almost never seem to cover the required "gustrange" at these windspeeds - it's too much "stop and go/overpowered". I would expect a small (<= 5m) racesail to have the largest usable windrange in one trim.

But would this be compatible with e.g. a PA74?

/Michael

davide
24th September 2007, 01:08 AM
I may be pushing the envelope of this thread, but how about small racesails for this type of sailing? I find that my 4.8 and 4.2 freemovesails almost never seem to cover the required "gustrange" at these windspeeds - it's too much "stop and go/overpowered". I would expect a small (<= 5m) racesail to have the largest usable windrange in one trim.

But would this be compatible with e.g. a PA74?

/Michael
My smallest "racesail" is a Naish 5.6 RedLine (2006, 2 cams) that I can easily use when people are in the 4.5-4.7 range. I sometimes wonder if a locked-down style of sailing with a very small race sail, for example a Hotsails Demon at its smallest 4.0, might be the ticket.

It might work for some people but in the Bay Area the problem is the high frequency chop. I am not sure if I will ever be able to push myself to the point of feeling confortable adopting the same approach I have with my slalom board/sail in VERY high winds.

If anything I am going the opposite direction, I am ordering a small quiver of Hotsails Superfreak (5.0/4.2 or 4.7/4.0) trying to calm down the sailing at those high wind speed.

The idea is to keep 5.5+ for locked down blasting, and <5.0 to "relax" and dance around ...

MichaelS
25th September 2007, 03:40 AM
Davide, have you used the Redline on your waveboard?

My smallest board is a 2000 95L RRD Freeride (266x58), and i need (and also prefer) to sail in a locked-down style to keep the nose down in chop. And i feel this is much easier with a stable sail. Just wondered if 5.0 racesail + 75L waveboard might be the magic solution for me.

Ola_H
25th September 2007, 04:18 AM
I have sold my PA74, but I'm gonna try my 5.5 speed sail on my Kombat 79 (VERY similar to the PAs) next time it gets that windy and I'm not wave sailing.

Jean-Marc
25th September 2007, 06:47 AM
I remember an old post of Andy Daff who had done some serious Vmax with an Acid 74, but I cannot find it anymore, sorry...

The problem of using race sails on a wave board is the amount of power you can push over the thin tail and small fin. With wavy rails on the tail and a inboard/centered rear footstrap, there is very little to push against.

Sometimes, I'm using my seat harness with the wave board to really blast around. I have better power with the legs in overpowered conditions and it's easier to go upwind in a locked-in attitude. However, it's also easier to get serious spinout if loading too much the rear foot on a deep reach (easily done with a seat harness).

I guess this might be more efficient on the tail block of the Kombat 79 with outboard straps and a tad thicker rails than that of the PA 74 (no problem with a RS1 6.6 sail on my Kombat 86 and the stock 30 cm freeride fin; but the tail block of Acid 62 is way too thin with same sail and fin).

Cheers !

JM

davide
25th September 2007, 09:26 AM
Davide, have you used the Redline on your waveboard?
Just wondered if 5.0 racesail + 75L waveboard might be the magic solution for me.
Hi Michael,
no I have not sailed the Redline with the Acid 74. The wind has been completely dead adter the advisory. However I do not plan to use it on the Acid 74 (on the SW52 and iSonic 76, yes!)

The following might be of some use to you: I can use my Redline 5.6 with my Rogue Wave (55.5 wide about 86 liters, somewhat similar to the Kombat in size). My Rogue Wave was built as a freeride/slalom with fairly thick rails, long straight, and V in the back, and with a Tuttle Box: I can use a Tectonics Goldwing fin on it (30cm). It actually works very well, it makes for a slower but very sure footed ride when powered up. However: the SW52 is faster, and goes upwind better.

The Acid 74 with a 5.0 freerace on paper should work, but do get an upright fin (think True Ames Convert 28cm long). Still it is questionable if you will be able to sail efficiently when powered up, I would not be surprised is the board starts to "slide". I might try the Acid with my HotSails Stealth 5.5 (7 battens "freerace") but not in very powered up to overpowered conditions ... by the time I get in sub-5.5 conditions I will use my SO 4.7/4.2 or the upcoming Superfreaks 5.0/4.2/3.7 ... (sitll: in just powered 5.5 my Sonic S52 or the upcoming Isonic 76 will work better ...)

MichaelS
27th September 2007, 03:53 AM
Thanks to all of you for your feedback.

Ola, if you ever get a chance to sail the Kombat with a racesail, i would very much appreciate to hear about your findings.

steveC
27th September 2007, 10:10 AM
I'll offer a comment here, but it's a bit ancient on the scheme of things. Back in the early 90's I was pretty much exclusively using race sails down to 4.2.

While vacationing in Maui off Spreckelsville in Summer, I was sailing there, and up as far as Hookipa (from a Spreckelville launch), and the upwind ability of the race sails was notable. So, even though times are a bit different today, I think that mixing it up is quite possible. I'm not suggesting the combo is the ultimate kit, but as long as your fin is properly matched, the game is more open then many realize.