PDA

View Full Version : wave sails for 10 Bft wind ?


Jean-Marc
22nd October 2007, 02:15 AM
Help...

Yesterday, 35-45 knots, Acid 62 + NP Zone 3.3 m2 sail;
Today, 35-40 knots, Acid 62 + NP NR 3.6 m2 sail;
Tomorrow, 40-50 knots forecasted...

Which brand makes a 2.6-2.8 m2 sail for 10 Bft conditions (no kiddy sails) ?
Any mast brand shorter than 340 cm and softer than IMCS 15 ?

Any input greatly appreciated !

Cheers !

JM

crazychemical
22nd October 2007, 02:27 AM
the smallest sails i found where ezzy sails ... 2.9 in their 2007 collection if i remember correctly. They work with a 340 mast. I never found anything smaller but seeing as the evo carries like 2.6 sails with it's smallest volume i suppose there must be. I never fonud any in any case ... maybe just eat a lot and add some weight to your body without having to sink so u can compensate or something, you never know, it might work.

crazychemical
22nd October 2007, 02:33 AM
just a question, where the F*** do u surf man, i mean, i've been daying for a bit of wind ... oktober has been far beyond sucky when it comes to wind in the north of france, belgium and the netherlands, which is quite a long range for a student like me. I've had nothing to go with since i came back from leucate mid september (where i got to hit 8 bft with a 4.0 sails, i felt so cool, never sailed smaller then 5.5 before) ... i'm hoping to get a bit of a thing going in november but i'm screwed for both december and january cuz of the exams ...

anyway, hope it helps

cheers

crazychemical
22nd October 2007, 02:36 AM
loft goes 2.8 with 340

Jean-Marc
22nd October 2007, 02:45 AM
Haiko,

Believe it or not, it's on my home spot Lake Geneva, Switzerland...! Unusual nuke conditions for sure, but it's soooo damn'd freaking fun !

The smallest I've found so far : Hot Sail Maui Diva 2.8 m2 : 320 cm luff x 133 cm boom (I don't mind the orange color) http://www.hotsailsmaui.com/2008/sails.php?sail=diva

Anything with say ±300 cm luff x ±120 cm boom on say a 300-320 cm mast ?

Cheers !

JM

steveC
22nd October 2007, 06:34 AM
Hey JM,

My smallest sail is 4.2. After that, it's blowing liquid smoke and the gusts are totally awesome in my book. Really, it's tough to see that outcome often, but Jalama can produce.

I had a few great 5.0 sessions this week, but it sounds like nothing compared to your current catch.

James
22nd October 2007, 09:52 AM
You might have to get one custom made if you want an adult-style sail in smaller than 2.8. A friend of mine had a 2.3 rig custom made for him from a sail loft in Pozo, but I have no idea what loft it was. He said the boom was less than 1 m long. Unbelievable! I would directly contact some sail makers in very windy areas like Gran Canaria or the Gorge. Maybe they've got something really small in stock.

Ola_H
22nd October 2007, 02:13 PM
The Hot Diva sails might be one of the smallest around. It is thoroughly tested though as a few of the female Hot riders live at the Gorge, I hear. This can otherwise be a problem with sails this small, ie not enough time to test them to get a good product. I think that to get the most out of this sail, you should rig it on the Hot Freewave 310 mast. This is a "grown up" mast, which is a bt lower in carbon fiber to achieve softer flex. I have not tried that one either, but I have a Freewave 340 coming my wave which I will try to test agains the Hotrod 340 and my current Gulftech 340 (really soft but super good) next time we get that much wind. The Diva sails are really not made with max owerpower wind range in mind, but they are made to not generate too much power which is probably better when its 10bft.

Another option which is less radical in size but maybe would work just as good is the Superfreak 3.2. Superfreak are known for handling more wind than any other sail, partly because their soft character and partly because they can be trimmed to decrease power and still "keep working" (ie not just get flat and twitchy). The 3.2 would set nicely on a soft 340 mast which would be more useful in other sails (I sometimes rig my 4.0 Fire and SO with a 340 and long extension).

LK
22nd October 2007, 04:50 PM
Severne Blade 2008, seem to be available in 3,2 and 3,0 sizes.
http://www.severnesails.com/sails/08_Wave_Sails/index.html

Jean-Marc
23rd October 2007, 06:04 AM
Thanks to all of you for your input.

Cheers !

JM

James
23rd October 2007, 06:55 AM
Ok, here we go. Northwave sails in the Gorge makes sails down to 2.3.

http://northwavesails.com/sails/surf_rigging.html

John Hibbard
23rd October 2007, 08:16 PM
Hi Jean Marc,

Tushingham have just started to produce their Rock wave sails in 2.7m size!! tushingham.com

John

Jean-Marc
23rd October 2007, 09:17 PM
James,

Thanks a lot. 2.5 and 2.8 sizes are good match indeed to what I'm looking for. Too bad they're rigged on a 340 cm mast, however (I'd rather prefer a shorter & softer 310 cm mast for my 65 kg*).

John,

Thanks. Any specs for the 2.7 size yet (luff & boom lenght; 4 or 5 battens) ?

Cheers !

JM

(*) Haiko, I've tried to gain 5 kg during the winter break but as soon as I'm back windsurfing again, it's all gone unfortunately...

John Hibbard
24th October 2007, 12:57 AM
Hi JM

The 2.7 has 4 battens Luff is 316cm and boom is 140. They will take a 340cm mast and unless you go custom i'm not sure you will find a mast shorter (I maybe wrong)

The Tushingham 340cm mast is 14imcs.

Cheers
John

Floyd
24th October 2007, 01:19 AM
Dont want to be a cynic here but F10 ??? Perhaps I`m a bit of a wimp but 55 to 65 MPH is totally unsailable for me.Once got caught out in a yacht in a F10 the sea looked like snow and had spindrift to a depth of at least a foot !(You can drown in the spray in a F10)
A 3.5 works for me in 35 knots (easily)A f10 is about 50 knots.50 knots contains just about double the energy of 35.
By that reckoning I`d need a 1.75 sail.Reckon my body is about that !!!
Any piks of these F10 days ???
Theres windy and there is F10 .If its F10 stay at home.

Jean-Marc
24th October 2007, 04:10 AM
Floyd,

I do share your concerns: a 3.0 sail is way too big a sail for such wind force. However, water surface is not a problem anymore because it's not open ocean; it's a lake and gale force winds tend to flatten the swell/waves quite a bit. Some pictures with 10 Bft (recorded 90-100 km/h wind speed) on lake Geneva last November :
http://www.music-roman.com/Photos/Lac_1g.JPG
http://www.music-roman.com/Photos/Lac_6.JPG

Cheers !

JM

Floyd
24th October 2007, 07:00 PM
Hi
I`ve been doing a bit of research around forces and windstrength.
In 20 mph (a good sailing day perhaps a 6 or 7 metre) the perpendicular force on any thing in the breeze is around 10kg per square metre.We are handling forces of order (or upto a max ) 60 or 70kg.

At what I see as my limit (ie 40 mph) the loading has gone upto 38kg per metre. Assuming I handle a 3.5 max loading is in order of (or upto max ) 130kg.(plus forces on rest of equipment and me).

In a F10 (Around 60mph) the loading per square metre is now 83kg per metre and everything is happening 3 times as fast as first example.To keep forces similar to those used in 20mph you`d need under a 1 square metre !!! Even to feel like a 3.5 in 40 mph(which is pretty hairy to say least) you would still need under (well under) a 2 square metre. And you are now approaching roughly the surface area presented to wind by your body.Upwind would be impossible. (ie drag to lift ratio gets worse and worse as sail size approaches body size)


Think we should be bit careful about claims of what we can sail in.Somebody might try !

Take care.(Have a rest day when its F10)

(Figures from met office)

Good sailing.

Ola_H
24th October 2007, 07:38 PM
Hey JM, the condition in that second image look pretty gnarly.

Personally, I've sailed few times in up to 25m/s gusts, that is around 55mph with 3.5, but its always difficult to know how the wind speed recordings relate to actual wind speed where one sail. One problem in that much wind is that itäs pretty much impossible to retrieve your gear if you loose it in a fall, but sailing close but the shore on a lake should negate tha dangerns of that.


Anyway, maybe its not so constructive to discuss what wind strengths is or s not possible to sail in since the relevant thing in this thread (unless you're breaking a record) is that if o find a sail that works when your 3.0 is to small.

In januari we had a big storm in Sweden, gust at 42.8 m/s which is over 90mph was recorded and a few people where out sailing in over 30m/s (>67mph). A few shots made it around the globe, for example the one below of Henrik Fahlen sailing a 2.2 Naish kids sail

http://www.boards.co.uk/downloads/24_1.JPG

James
25th October 2007, 01:21 AM
WOW! Amazing conditions in the pictures from JM and Ola. Any more information on that January storm session? Was waterstarting possible? I bet the entire kit would blow away if the rider let go.

Jean-Marc
25th October 2007, 02:05 AM
Floyd,
Ola,

Yes, I agree 10 Bft is a lot of wind, no question. To measure wind, I use an analog Deuta hand-held anemometer (precision 0.5 m/s or 1 knot), possibly at 2 m height above water level and away from any nearby interference (rocks, trees, fences, building, etc...). When measuring 35-45 knots, 35 is lull, 40 average and 45 is peak on the beach, but usually, it's a bit more windy at the middle of the lake (3-5 km wide). Beware of reading calibration as well, a cheap digital hand-held anemometer gave 48 knots peak and an online wheather station was topping off at 30 knots about 1 km downwind from the beach.
We have these kind of gale wind once a year in October or November, so I want to try that with say a 2.3 or 2.8 sail. When I tried it with a 3.0 sail last time, I got a leach to my back footstrap because as Ola pointed out, equipment is literally blown away from me when I fall, so it can become scary at time. However, if drifted away by the wind, one can always go back to shore on a lake (i.e., visit some private properties). November is fine because water is not too cold yet, i.e., 9-11°C, but air can be 4-6°C and the main trouble is to keep fingers warm enough on the boom despite the wind chill factor. January or February is way too cold, ice builds up on the sail, so better go skiing...

Cheers !

JM

jordanwd
1st November 2007, 08:28 AM
northwave surflites go down to 2.3..they fricken rip..

http://www.northwavesails.com/sails/surf_rigging.html

Floyd
1st November 2007, 03:47 PM
Not a lot of use with rips in though are they ???

jordanwd
2nd November 2007, 06:00 AM
Not a lot of use with rips in though are they ???

LOL.. hahah.. thats a good one...

By "they fricken rip" i mean they are fricken fantastic..sorry for the slang ;).

Jean-Marc
2nd November 2007, 06:32 PM
By "they fricken rip" i mean they are fricken fantastic...

Can you tell us more, especially 2.8 size and less ? Why so freakin' fantastic ?

Cheers !

JM

jordanwd
4th November 2007, 02:12 AM
They are well made, rig nicely, (I like to sail them way overpowered with the sail flattened out), and very reasonably priced- especially if you order them in the off season. The smallest I've personally sailed and own is a early 1990's 3.2 surflite which I've sailed in about 40-43 knots (I weigh 200#) and handled the gusty, windy conditions well. The newwer ones are that much better I'm sure. I don't really know of any other sail company that routinely makes sails down to the 2.3 range. They're made in the gorge so thare is plenty of opputunities to sail small sails like this and NW is one of the favorite sails of gorge sailors. check out their web site in the previously mentioned thread.

Jean-Marc
4th November 2007, 02:33 AM
I like to sail them way overpowered with the sail flattened out

Thanks Jordan. Yes, Northwave is probably the only brand making a 2.3 sail for adult use. They do make a 2.5 size, as well as Real Wind, another Hood River-based brand.

How do you rig the Surflite ? super flat profile with a loose leech down to the boom's clew or with a moderate loose leech in the top panel and some belly shape around the boom area ?
Some owner have reported a soft feel with the Surflite + NoLimitz mast combo, do you agree or not ? Good or bad with your 200# weight ?

Cheers !

JM

jordanwd
4th November 2007, 03:15 AM
the 3.2 and 3.7 surflites are early 1990's so the new ones probably rig a little different..but I rig the 2 i do have on a 400 mast which is probably stiffer than recommended (i believe the optimal mast is a 370). Anyway i downhaul for normal sailing conditions so the leach is wrinkled down to half way between the 2 and 3rd batton and then outhaul so the 2nd batton from the top is off the mast. I like to sail them over powered thouh so in those conditions I'll down haul till theres a wrinkle all the way down to the 3rd batton from the top and adjust the outhaul accordingly. Because I use a stiiffer /longer mast than optimal (400 is the smallest mast i own) I have to really put more effort into the downhaul than i would w/ a 370 mast. It feels dialed in non the less though. The newwer ones may rig alittle different. Call Chris @ NW.. he's very informative and eager to explain how to rig the sails. Also check out the Simmer Style web site and check out their rigging videos for their diff sails.. watch the ones for all 3 of their wave sails as each one offers different pointers. The NW sails require a little more downhaul in general than the Simmers, but their really are some informative tips on how to fine tune the newwer generation of wave sails which carry over to all sail brands.

As far as a"soft feel", I have never experienced that w/ either the older surflites or the zxl's unless I don't downhaul or out haul them enough/correctly. ie if I rig them in very light wind just to get moving and then get hit with a gust they feel soft and the sail draft feels like its shifting and unstable alittle.. but thats only because the sail is too small for the wind conditions.
Also when fine tuning the new NW's (I have 2007 ZXL's 4.2-->5.7) adjustments in down and outhaul to adjust for litewind to strong wind requires only a 1-->3 cm change in tension depending on the conditions..its really quite remarkable!

jordanwd
4th November 2007, 03:41 AM
check out this pic; this is a zxl of course but I believe the new surflites rig similiarly...its blowing about 33--39 knotts, this sailor weighs about 185# and is on a JP FSW85... so he's sailing overpowered conditions for a 4.2 sail yet is still totally dialed in.. not sure if you can tell but the downhaul has the the leach wrinkled down between the 2&3 batton from the top..

http://wetsands.smugmug.com/gallery/3714816#213124423

on the other hand, check out this pic with the same conditions as the above pic.. this sailor weighed about 175# was on an old school gorge animal(heavy board) and looks like he was on a 3.2 --maybe 2.8 (???) older vintage surflite...notice how he doesn't really have much downhaul at all yet he was rippin fully powered and appears dialed in as well..

http://wetsands.smugmug.com/gallery/3714816#213129332

Jean-Marc
5th November 2007, 12:31 AM
Thanks Jordan for the pics and your feelings. Yes, I've asked Chris for some pics of the Surflite, so wait & see...

Cheers !

JM

James
5th November 2007, 07:23 AM
Slightly off-topic, but here's a nice slideshow I found of 40-60 mph windsurfing last Saturday in Hurricane Noel in New England.

http://media.twango.com/m1/original/0098/4c32f213bd5849d28798c6ff9a3a2f8f.swf

The storm wasn't as severe in my area, but I did get to use my 3.5 on Friday.

http://jimbodouglass.blogspot.com/2007/11/noel.html

Unregistered
5th November 2007, 02:07 PM
check out this link

http://www.riks-sports.com/gallery/2007/02/009.htm

1.9m custom sail

Jean-Marc
7th November 2007, 02:09 AM
Nice pic above : looks like a half-sliced Combat sail...
Thanks James for the slideshow link, this is what I'm looking for.
More pics of Bft 10 at lake Geneva : http://www.tropical-corner.ch/Gallerys/gallery_tempete/index.html

Thanks to all for your input.

Cheers !

JM

James
24th November 2007, 04:37 AM
Here's a shot of a really small sail in action.

http://www.realwind.com/realwind/images/100_1212_0001L.jpg

Looks like Real-Hot sails, an offshoot of hotsails maui, makes a 2.7 and a 2.5.

http://www.realwind.com/wind/2006SailPromotion.htm

Unregistered
26th November 2007, 11:57 PM
Sure windy but certainly nothing like a 10 !
Saw 50 knot gusts last week on med.(Pretty steady 45 knot gusting to 52 according to local Capitainarrie(sp?) Couldnt see the sea ! Looked like snow !!! Nobody but nobody sailing; attempting to sail or even rigging.Was warm too.Left my kit alone !!!
You could have sailed with just the mast !!!
Not sure any of us can really sail in 45knot +

Unregistered
28th March 2008, 07:32 PM
As before.. 1.9 in action!

http://www.riks-sports.com/news/2008/03-08/nukin-11th/nukin-11th.htm