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View Full Version : Where to stay on Maui in March?


Pål
15th January 2008, 06:30 PM
Hi there! My small family and myself are going to visit Maui for 14 days medio March. Any good input on where to stay? Main purpose of the trip is of course to windsurf, but the stay is pretty dependent upon a "liveable" accomodation for "the rest of the family as well..."

Guess we are looking for a guest house, cottage, etc.

Any tip is highly appreciated.

//Pål N-300

Ian Fox
16th January 2008, 04:10 AM
Despite the County attempts to wipe out vacation rentals around the North Shore, there remain many options. A lot depends on what you and your family want/expect in terms of location, as North Shore Maui is dream, but strangely not every tourist's idea of Maui either.

There is a massive range of condo/apartment/hotel accom on the South (Kihei) and West (Ka'anapali) sides - it's not so close to the North Shore action - but for non windsurfers, it's probably more like what they got in mind/expect. Kihei side can be good sailing anyway, and the drive to the North is doable. There's a lot of windsurf visitors (mostly those with "rest of family" in tow) who stay Kihei side.

If you're more into the local North Shore scene - and dont need to live next to a mall - then there are still some valid options.

Kuau Plaza (Rental Manager : Ken Yamamoto (808) 579-8080 ) offers good budget accom as close to Hookipa as you can get, or if you're looking for a classy North Shore option, check out the "Starboard House" in Kuau / manager Anne Barber ( 808-870-3481). There are definitely some slots available for some March dates, but be quick, as with they are filling real fast..

Cheers ~ Ian

Unregistered
21st January 2008, 12:14 PM
hey Ian are those places legal??. what i mean is identifying them on the web may be what the county is looking for, then the county serves them with a cease and desist order.
I have heard it happening, supposedly the county is searching on one database for places still renting.
i have booked with someone but wont say, who is close to kuau. i may lose my booking of the county comes a knocking.
the only good news was that the owner stated that they get along well with the nighbours and as such there are no complaints. The previous place i did stay at in kuau last spring told me a month ago they are still renting BUT they have long term rental palces aroudn them that dotn complain either.

i hope it all blows over BUT, it will stay as an issue till this county admin changes.

shredulato

Ian Fox
21st January 2008, 01:30 PM
Hi Shred,

Both fully legal, operating correctly zoned and permitted
and under no threat from the County. ;)

Cheers ~ Ian

Unregistered
21st January 2008, 02:42 PM
Shredulato,

You don't seem to get it brah, you are conspiring to commit an illegal act - so be prepared to suffer the consequences. Despite the highly vocal minority opposition and political pressure from the Maui Vacation Rental Association, the County actually has overwhelming popular support when it comes to enforcing the zoning laws on the books. The MVRA's legal claims against the County have been summarily dismissed in federal court - they are baseless.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Warm aloha, from the North Shore of Maui.

Unregistered
21st January 2008, 03:06 PM
A warm aloha ....cold LOL sounds like you work for the county..or the man in some way shape or form.
Auntie Aloha might want to keep the northshore safe for outsiders who may seek ways to pay off the mortgage, not something i would agree with myself, but she is also effecting and shutting down the ka mahina trying to make ends meet.

Such nice aloha, teeth and all .
shred

Unregistered
4th March 2008, 04:47 AM
Don't you guys get it? Illegal vacation rentals are ILLEGAL. Against the law.

While they DO offer budget accommodation for a few visitors, their net effect is to drive up rents and real estate prices - the cost of living - for the people who actually live here.

The ONLY people on Maui who are PRO illegal vacation rental are...wait for it...the ones who are making all the tax free money off it. DOH!

There are plenty of nice LEGAL places to stay. I have no sympathy for a bunch of whiney carpet baggers, and I can assure you, they are doing no favors for the Maui windsurfing community with their calls for 'solidarity'.

Unregistered
4th March 2008, 06:16 AM
Is that you?

Don't you guys get it? Illegal vacation rentals are ILLEGAL. Against the law.

While they DO offer budget accommodation for a few visitors, their net effect is to drive up rents and real estate prices - the cost of living - for the people who actually live here.

The ONLY people on Maui who are PRO illegal vacation rental are...wait for it...the ones who are making all the tax free money off it. DOH!

There are plenty of nice LEGAL places to stay. I have no sympathy for a bunch of whiney carpet baggers, and I can assure you, they are doing no favors for the Maui windsurfing community with their calls for 'solidarity'.

WindKook Fight League
4th March 2008, 06:29 AM
You ready (points to WN)?

You ready (points to WS)?

Let's Git It Onnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!


Don't you guys get it? Illegal vacation rentals are ILLEGAL. Against the law.

While they DO offer budget accommodation for a few visitors, their net effect is to drive up rents and real estate prices - the cost of living - for the people who actually live here.

The ONLY people on Maui who are PRO illegal vacation rental are...wait for it...the ones who are making all the tax free money off it. DOH!

There are plenty of nice LEGAL places to stay. I have no sympathy for a bunch of whiney carpet baggers, and I can assure you, they are doing no favors for the Maui windsurfing community with their calls for 'solidarity'.

Unregistered
4th March 2008, 11:05 AM
Shred here ,
i am not getting into this fight .
I am more of a free choice guy.
Hey ever been to Maui, lets face it, maui attracts MILLIONAIRES yep millionaires.
I dont mean people with ONE million dollars , they are the ones buyingi a condo in the baha . Were tlaking MULTI MILLIONAIRES . So some bloke buying property and paying it off through rentals isnt really driving prices up "island wide" get real. The people although visible are in the MINORITY.
What about the families trying to make ends meet and having someone in there renovated garage now cottage.
AND is the counrty going to close down the backyard mechanic lawnmover repair guy, he/she probaly not zoned either. well its OK until the county says its not.

But anywho each i am staying in kihei this year........
yeah kihei.
the place i was supposed to stay said they arent doing the rental thing.
if life gives you lemons you make lemonade, kihei may be nice.

shredulato

steveC
5th March 2008, 01:28 AM
Poster 7,

You ever heard about pricing and the forces of supply and demand? With less rentals available on the Northshore, I'm thinking that legal rental owners are going to take advantage of the opportunity. I've never seen a situation where greater demand leads to lower pricing.

Unregistered
5th March 2008, 02:35 AM
Hey shred

Those millionaires aren't driving up the prices of shacks out in Haiku - or anywhere else 'normal' people live. It's a completely different market. While there is always some crossover, you will find that supply and demand scenarios generally play out within a limited socio/economic strata. In the case of most illegal vacation rentals, these are the exact same properties that would otherwise be available in the long term rental market. The result is fewer units available to residents, and higher prices for the ones that are.

As for your 'little guy just trying to make ends meet' argument, most properties on Maui are zoned for an ohana, a sub 500 sq ft rental unit. However, they are NOT zoned for a hotel business, with it's attendant liabilities and negative impact on the community. So it is possible to generate additional income legally, just not as much and not tax free.

I realize some people took the illegal vacation rental business for granted, and are a bit over extended. I have seen the same thing happen to drug dealers, another illegal business. While I suppose we could feel sorry for them, I personally think they ought to be grateful that they were able to get away with so much profit for so long and move on. Even if some have to sell a few of the multiple properties that many have accumulated through leveraging their ill-gotten gains (oops, there goes that supply/demand thing again), I don't think any of them will be hurting for too long.

Unregistered
5th March 2008, 02:50 AM
SteveC

Just to be perfectly clear, what I meant by 'oops, there goes that supply/demand thing again' in my last post is that, when some of these vacation rental properties are put on the market, it will have the effect of INCREASING supply, hence benefiting anyone who lives here and might want to buy a house - the reverse of what has happened during ten years a lax enforcement of the zoning laws pertaining to vacation rentals.

Unregistered
8th March 2008, 02:57 AM
Man, it's been 3 days and I am still waiting for Shred and SteveC's ummm 'clever' rebuttals to my posts above.

What's up with that?

Unregistered
11th March 2008, 06:23 AM
nah... just bored..opinions are like ass holes: everyone has one...
and mine is sore from being used too much LOL

shred

steveC
11th March 2008, 10:17 AM
For an Unregistered poster, you're a bit on the demanding and fiesty side. Sorry, I honestly missed your post.

I guess it comes down to the locals versus the visitors on the Northshore.

Do you have a dog that barks, or maybe some chickens that like dawn? Having been to the islands a lot since the mid 70's, I know that the local scene isn't always that easy overall for those owning property.

Hey, good luck! I know in Santa Barbara that just wanting cheap and affordable housing can be quite a challenge. Really, unless you have your act together financially with a great job, and more importantly, you're willing to invest in your future, the trick stuff can be awfully distant and tough.

As a visitor, Nothshore Maui must be getting stupid with the new regulations. Frankly, a Kihei vacation is not worth it in my mind. Why would anybody stay there?

Hey, good for you. One less visitor to the island, and all that might represent.

Unregistered
12th March 2008, 03:40 AM
Hi SteveC

Sorry if I was being feisty - beneath my humor was a genuine interest if there was a reply to my points. To be clear again:

1) I've got nothing against visitors - our local economy depends upon them. At the same time, as a fellow long time resident who has witnessed the changes to Maui resulting from unchecked development etc, it is my considered opinion that the 'aina and local communities need to come first at this point in our history.

2) While there ARE a flurry of onerous new regulations that effect windsurfers, the vacation rental laws have been on the books for a LONG time - it is the thriving underground illegal vacation rental BUSINESS that is NEW. This administration has stepped up enforcement, because affordable housing is a HUGE issue, and the illegal vacation rental business has taken thousands of rental units out of normal circulation, as well as reducing the available pool of houses for sale by several hundred - and that's just Haiku.

This is a small island, with a lot of different cultures living in very close proximity. When one subgroup profits hugely from a illegal business in a way that makes everyone else's cost of living go up, relations are strained, and quality of life is compromised as a result. It is no fun to come home to a pissed off neighbor, and building giant walls and gates around every new project is not helping.

It all comes down to aloha - and illegal TVRs do not fit the bill.

steveC
12th March 2008, 12:20 PM
Unregistered,

I'm not trying to be too insulting here, but I'll offer some honest thoughts about things as I see it. One thing that should be clear about here is that I've been a lifelong Democrat. Maybe this isn't clear to the international community, but anybody from Hawaii should understand and appreciate my perspective a bit better. Also, I should emphasize that I have no investments of any kind in Hawaii.

First, from a practical perspective, you have to be quite naive and innocent in your view of things. In the real world, unless of course you can support the fact that you're some indigenious native of Hawaii that might qualify for certain extra special rights, I find that in the real world here in the US that a protected status for the average citizen is a pipe dream.

I've lived and worked in Santa Barbara for almost 35 years, but what does that guarantee me? Does it mean I have a special right to inexpensive housing, or maybe other rights that a new resident to the area can't attain? Certainly not. Think about it. My right to be in SB is based on my ability to float and support my game. If I can't afford it, SB is history.

Should a Maui resident of a certain number of years have special rights that might be viewed like earned airline miles that can be spent how one might think suits their purposes? Maybe Hawaiian born residents should have special rights regardless of their performance and contributions to the community. Does that make sense?

Quite honestly, the American system just doesn't work that way in the real world. Those with the finances and wherewithall to take risks and make investment decisions tend to win overall when the decisions are sound, or fail if they aren't.

Is a Maui resident that develops a property and hopes to balance the situation through ocassional rentals a criminal? Sure seems like the County of Maui wants to make that a reality.

Will the nonsense and difficulties being offered by the current Maui County administration trump all? These folks are now having their day in the sun, but their stupidity and a small vision of the future is surely going to come back to haunt them. I'm sure that folks that invested and built properties for reasonable short term occupancy will eventually have a say. The world is getting more expensive and most investors worth their salt want to benefit and grow. We're talking about capitalism here. The heart of the American system.

The TVR prohibition thing hits the investor hard, particularly a local resident that's trying to forge ahead and find some leverage to afford to live in on Maui and enjoy a productive lifestyle.

The last thing real people need is impossible restrictions and laws that constrict growth and well being. Of course, if guaranteed welfare and automatic government support has predominance over the real estate market and a productive capitalistic society, a lower class category of citizens will find a comfortable home and existence. Kind of a socialist inspired haven for underprivileged masses.

Is that what we should be striving and hoping for? I think not, despite my Democratic convictions.

Lastly, noboby has offered anything concrete about how the pricing of legal Northshore rentals is affected in this slash and burn county environment. Sometimes I think that the real statistics and facts are hidden to fool and deceive the public. I feel like the locales are being riden and used here for specious reasons, and that they don't truly understand their fate.

Unregistered
13th March 2008, 03:54 AM
WOW, DID YOU ACTUALLY READ MY POST?

LET ME TAKE YOUR 'POINTS' ONE BY ONE:

Unregistered,

I'm not trying to be too insulting here, but I'll offer some honest thoughts about things as I see it. One thing that should be clear about here is that I've been a lifelong Democrat. Maybe this isn't clear to the international community, but anybody from Hawaii should understand and appreciate my perspective a bit better. Also, I should emphasize that I have no investments of any kind in Hawaii.

WHY DOES YOUR POLITICAL PERSUASION MATTER, AND WHAT DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH ILLEGAL TVRS?

First, from a practical perspective, you have to be quite naive and innocent in your view of things. In the real world, unless of course you can support the fact that you're some indigenious native of Hawaii that might qualify for certain extra special rights, I find that in the real world here in the US that a protected status for the average citizen is a pipe dream.

WHAT?!! WHERE DID I SAY ANYTHING LIKE THAT...OH WAIT- YOU MADE IT UP TO GET ALL SELF RIGHTEOUS. GOTCHA!

I've lived and worked in Santa Barbara for almost 35 years, but what does that guarantee me? Does it mean I have a special right to inexpensive housing, or maybe other rights that a new resident to the area can't attain? Certainly not. Think about it. My right to be in SB is based on my ability to float and support my game. If I can't afford it, SB is history.

NOT SURE HOW THIS RELATES TO ILLEGAL TVRS ON MAUI?

Should a Maui resident of a certain number of years have special rights that might be viewed like earned airline miles that can be spent how one might think suits their purposes? Maybe Hawaiian born residents should have special rights regardless of their performance and contributions to the community. Does that make sense?

IF I MAY QUOTE MYSELF: "WHAT?!! WHERE DID I SAY ANYTHING LIKE THAT...OH WAIT- YOU MADE IT UP TO GET ALL SELF RIGHTEOUS. GOTCHA!"


Quite honestly, the American system just doesn't work that way in the real world. Those with the finances and wherewithall to take risks and make investment decisions tend to win overall when the decisions are sound, or fail if they aren't.

NO ARGUMENT HERE. THE RISK IN THIS CASE IS THAT THE TVRS WERE NOT LEGAL - HENCE, THE RESULT: FAIL.

Is a Maui resident that develops a property and hopes to balance the situation through ocassional rentals a criminal? Sure seems like the County of Maui wants to make that a reality.

IF THAT MAUI RESIDENT CHOOSES TO FINANCE A DEVELOPMENT PROPERTY BY OPERATING A CRIMINAL BUSINESS (AN ILLEGAL TVR, FOR EXAMPLE), WHY YES, THEY ARE A CRIMINAL. ALL THE COUNTY OF MAUI IS DOING IS ENFORCING EXISTING LAWS.

Will the nonsense and difficulties being offered by the current Maui County administration trump all? These folks are now having their day in the sun, but their stupidity and a small vision of the future is surely going to come back to haunt them. I'm sure that folks that invested and built properties for reasonable short term occupancy will eventually have a say. The world is getting more expensive and most investors worth their salt want to benefit and grow. We're talking about capitalism here. The heart of the American system.

THE PEOPLE THAT INVESTED AND BUILT BASED ON AN ILLEGAL BUSINESS MODEL HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT THEMSELVES. THE STATE OF HAWAII DOESN'T OWE THESE 'INVESTORS' ANYTHING.

The TVR prohibition thing hits the investor hard, particularly a local resident that's trying to forge ahead and find some leverage to afford to live in on Maui and enjoy a productive lifestyle.

DUDE, ILLEGAL TVRS HAVE BEEN ILLEGAL FOR YEARS AND YEARS. AND AS I'VE POINTED OUT PREVIOUSLY, ILLEGAL TVRS MAKE THE COST OF BUYING A HOUSE MORE EXPENSIVE FOR THE LAW-ABIDING MAJORITY OF MAUI RESIDENTS.

The last thing real people need is impossible restrictions and laws that constrict growth and well being. Of course, if guaranteed welfare and automatic government support has predominance over the real estate market and a productive capitalistic society, a lower class category of citizens will find a comfortable home and existence. Kind of a socialist inspired haven for underprivileged masses.

ILLEGAL TVRS ARE NO MORE PART OF A PRODUCTIVE CAPITALISTIC SOCIETY THAN ILLEGAL DRUG DEALING, NOR DO THEY CONTRIBUTE TO 'WELL BEING'. AND GEE, WHAT A BUMMER IF ENFORCING EXISTING LAWS WOULD PERMIT A 'LOWER CLASS CATEGORY OF CITIZENS' (YOUR WORDS) TO FIND A 'COMFORTABLE HOME AND EXISTENCE'.

Is that what we should be striving and hoping for? I think not, despite my Democratic convictions.

YOU MEAN YOUR CONVICTION THAT WEALTHY 'INVESTORS' SHOULD BE ABLE TO OPERATE ABOVE THE LAW AT EVERYONE ELSE'S EXPENSE? YOU'RE ABOUT AS DEMOCRATIC AS KEN LAY!

Lastly, noboby has offered anything concrete about how the pricing of legal Northshore rentals is affected in this slash and burn county environment. Sometimes I think that the real statistics and facts are hidden to fool and deceive the public. I feel like the locales are being riden and used here for specious reasons, and that they don't truly understand their fate.

MAYBE THE FOLK WHO ACTUALLY WENT TO THE TROUBLE TO SET UP A LEGAL BUSINESS WILL BE ABLE TO CHARGE A LITTLE MORE NOW THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO COMPETE WITH A BUNCH OF CRIMINALS! HONESTY IS IT'S OWN REWARD. BESIDES, I THOUGHT YOU WERE 'PRO CAPITALISM', SO SURELY THE CONCEPT OF SUPPLE AND DEMAND SHOULD RESONATE.

WELL STEVEC, I HAVE TO SAY I WAS DISAPPOINTED WITH YOUR INCREDIBLY POORLY THOUGHT OUT RESPONSE. YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT BOILS DOWN TO THE IDEA THAT A FEW 'INVESTORS' WHO HAVE BEEN GETTING RICH BY RUNNING A CRIMINAL BUSINESS SHOULD BE GIVEN A PASS BY MAUI OFFICIALS SEEKING TO ENFORCE EXISTING LAWS, REGARDLESS OF THE COST TO THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE, SO THAT YOU AND A FEW OTHER VISITORS CAN SAVE A FEW BUCKS WHEN YOU COME HERE.

PLEASE ASK YOURSELF A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS:

1) DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT RICH INVESTORS SHOULD BE ABOVE THE LAW? OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER?

2) DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THE FUTURE OF MAUI WILL BE COMPROMISED IF VISITORS HAVE TO PAY A FAIR PRICE (DICTATED BY SUPPLY AND DEMAND) FOR VACATION RENTALS AS A RESULT OF THE COUNTY SHUTTING DOWN THE CURRENT BLACK MARKET?

steveC
13th March 2008, 07:50 AM
Quite frankly, you have your view of things and I have mine, and I think it would be difficult find a real understanding here. That's OK. Nevertheless, I can honestly say, that I'd much rather live were I do, and skip the thought of vacationing in Maui.

Fortunately, I've done Maui many times, but my last trip there was in 1997. All my stays there were right on the beach at John and Louise Severson's property in Specklesville. I think that I tasted Maui at its sweetest for windsurfing. Looks like the Maui of the future is a much different place.

Like I said much earlier, good luck!

Unregistered
13th March 2008, 10:18 AM
Hmm one thing strikes me here folks.
I am not from North America.


But is getting busted running and illegal TVR a "criminal" offense or a "civil" offence in the USA?

Ok i can see selling dope on the Hana highway, running over pedestrians drunk at longs drugs parking lot, asaulting people without being legally at war with them , or maybe hitting humpbacks with a jetski.......



But running a short term rental house???

if so Ok but i hope a balance can be struck.

I am sure many investors flocked to the northshore for investments purposes it seems for some reasons to do short term VRs.
But why dont these same people want to rent to longterm people??? Rent contols?? Long term renters seem like a better more predictable income ..

is there something i cant see here unregistered? you seem to have your finger on the pulse.

I am sure the Aina have suffered enough. But if the county wants more long term rentals they should give landlords some incentives, and better yet or start building themselves and take matters into their own hands, that is literally ( as in start building!!!)

not unregistered

call me :superunknown

steveC
13th March 2008, 12:30 PM
Hi superunknown,

Your view is quite refreshing, especially since it's coming from the outside. However, I'm afraid that Maui's county government might have a different agenda that isn't that friendly to visitors, unless you want to stay and spend on the south side of the island.

From my perspective it's a local versus visitor decision factor. With the constrictions that growth might involve, at least in my opinion, the county government has decided to limit growth on the Northshore for visitor use in favor of the chance that owners will rent to locals at a much reduced income overall, irrespective of this creation of an "illegal" environment. It must be remembered that the county looked the other way for some time, and that's truly sad overall.

While there might be an argument for giving so called locals an advantage in the future, I wonder whether that makes sense from a long term perspective. Locals which do not have financial strength to stand on the top of the game would love to live in the best spot on Maui for a song, but the windsurfing and kiting markets are clearly putting pressure on that. Visitors are beginning to understand the special advantages that the Northshore offers (unquestioned from a knowledgable point of view), unfortunately, to the downside of the local low income residents.

It's kind of that capitalistic force and direction that can be found in free a society, and it truly works to limit the opportunities of those at the bottom of the income ladder, especially if it was a previous stronghold for the poor. Living in Santa Barbara, I readily understand the consequences in this type of situation. But in a free market, the forces can undermine those with little strength and financial holdings, and this advantages those with greater strength, vision and capability. Therein lies the dilemma here.

Is the county government up for the real future? Unhappily, I don't think so. Yet, these limited horizon folks were elected by the residents of Maui, and that has meaning overall, at least to confuse reality. However, can the will of the locals win over the future of a vacation focused Maui, only time will tell.

Unregistered
13th March 2008, 02:03 PM
Does anyone here have contact info for Pontificators Anonymous? You know, to help people to stop pontificating.

Unregistered
13th March 2008, 08:13 PM
Having travelled windsuring to costa rica and the many places in the carribean, Dom Rep aruba , margarite i see that every year more and more people are building and buying properties throughout the islands. People who dont necessarily live there.


There is local resentment against these people. So the maui goverment atttitude is nothing new or out of human nature. And yes the "locals" cannot or have a damn hard time trying to compete.
But a trend for real estate to inflate for speculative reasons ( in this case a beautifull warm island) can be seen anywhere on many different levels.Take the micopcosm of a city, and a neighbourhood that is touted as a new development , prices go up for what reason???

"the county government has decided to limit growth on the Northshore for visitor use in favor of the CHANCE that owners will rent to locals at a much reduced income overall"



CHANCE its seems indeed a haphaard policy, what if they dont and sellout and more off islanders buy up at prices now even with better value.

I am still wondering why they dont rent to long termers now whats the incentive for VR to exist and rent to short term people. It cant be Tax evasion for the sake of ??

super

Birdbrain
13th March 2008, 11:28 PM
Super, the incentive is money. As an example, a studio or small one bedroom that rents for $100 a night as a vacation rental, would get only $1,000 a month as a long-term rental. By the way, these rental prices are not set by rent controls, which you asked about before; it's just the market price. So, if the owner can keep a property booked with vacation rentals, there is the potential for three times as much rental revenue. And that's what inflates the property values, because the property as vacation rental can support a higher mortgage payment, and therefore a higher selling price.

Granted, this does not apply in all situations. For example, some rental properties have a desirable location or other attractive characteristics that put them out of the reach of typical long-term renters anyhow. However, the zoning ordinances prohibiting vacation rentals are not aimed at those kinds of properties. They are aimed at properties in residential neighborhoods that might be taken out of the long-term rental pool in order to accommodate vacation rentals instead - yes, this really has happened in many neighborhoods. This forces long-term renters to move elsewhere. But where? If the trend of proliferation of vacation rentals continues, there will be nowhere left for long-term renters to go.

Your solution of just building more housing is not workable for many reasons. For one thing, Maui has limited water supply, and development is limited by availability of water. Other considerations are limited roadways, limited energy supply, limited waste processing, and other infrastructure limitations that make added development problematic - especially on the North Shore. This is what creates a limitation on housing resources and a conflict between competing interests of vacation rentals and long-term residents.

Besides, one can easily make the case that developing the North Shore to create more housing and accommodate a higher population density would eliminate some of its current characteristics like rural charm, low population density, local color, which are precisely what make it so attractive...

There is no easy answer to the problems that Maui is facing. The current administration and County council are wisely leaning in the direction of sustainable growth and sustainable development with a more diversified (i.e. less tourism-dependent) economy - and they have the broad support of their constituents to do so. Housing, and the vacation rental issue, are just one facet of the overall sustainability framework - others I've alluded to are water, energy, infrastructure. Of course some vocal minorities are vehemently opposed. That's not surprising, as there is an inherent conflict between sustainability on the one hand, and making money at any cost on the other.

How this all plays out is anyone's guess. The County Council is currently considering new proposals from the administration which update the vacation rental ordinances, and should be voting on passing them into law in the near future. My prediction is that all sides will get a little of what they want, but not everyone will get all that they want. The new regulations will be less restrictive and less onerous, however they will still place significant limitations on vacation rentals. Stay tuned.

Unregistered
14th March 2008, 03:37 AM
Hi Super

I'm the 'unknown' that started with the 'don't you guys get it, illegal TVRs are illegal' post.

Re the legality: my understanding is that the illegal construction aspect of many TVRs is a civil misdemeanor, while the failure to pay the hotel tax and the income tax evasion are criminal acts. Pls note that the illegal construction WILL ultimately need to comply, in some cases this is as simple as removing kitchens etc, but in many cases entire structures built for the sole purpose on running an illegal business will need to be torn down.

Re Longterm vs short term: A longterm unit that would bring in $1500 - 1800 per month can easily earn $100 per night or $3000 per month. Putting the 1500 plus illegal units in Haiku back into the long term rental pool would increase the supply enough that those rents would probably drop to about 1999 levels - $1100-1600 per month. So you can see the cost to the community that lives here is VERY high, both in terms of what is available, and how much they need to pay every month.

As has been pointed out in another post, the Maui water supply is pretty well tapped out at the moment, and will soon be further taxed by the 3000 plus water meters that will come on line in the next year in high demand areas like Wailea.

To that, I would like to add that there are plenty of houses for the current population already - everyone who wants to lives under a roof. The issues are:

1) How much do they pay for that roof
2) What are the chances of them ever owning the house that goes with it.

On Maui's north shore, people who care about the community and the long term viability of Maui as a nice place to live, grow up, and perhaps ultimately raise a family have realized that illegal TVRs are making those things a LOT more difficult while giving almost nothing back - the budget minded renters are hardly the cornerstone of our billion dollar tourism economy.

The fact that they are also illegal makes the issue pretty much a no-brainer for anyone who does not have a vested financial interest in the 'business'.

Unregistered
14th March 2008, 04:01 AM
HI STEVEC

YOU RAISE AN INTERESTING POINT: ARE YOU A WILLFULLY OBTUSE TROLL, OR AN IMBECILE? I TRUTHFULLY DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER TO THAT - HOWEVER, I CAN EASILY REBUT ALL OF YOUR 'POINTS':

From my perspective it's a local versus visitor decision factor. With the constrictions that growth might involve, at least in my opinion, the county government has decided to limit growth on the Northshore for visitor use in favor of the chance that owners will rent to locals at a much reduced income overall, irrespective of this creation of an "illegal" environment. It must be remembered that the county looked the other way for some time, and that's truly sad overall.

THE COUNTY IS CRACKING DOWN ON ILLEGAL BUSINESS PRACTICES. THERE IS SO MUCH LEGAL GROWTH ON THE NORTHSHORE (OVER 10,000 NEW HOUSES IN THE LAST 10 YEARS) THAT THE IDEA THE COUNTY IS 'LIMITING GROWTH' IS LAUGHABLE.

While there might be an argument for giving so called locals an advantage in the future, I wonder whether that makes sense from a long term perspective. Locals which do not have financial strength to stand on the top of the game would love to live in the best spot on Maui for a song, but the windsurfing and kiting markets are clearly putting pressure on that. Visitors are beginning to understand the special advantages that the Northshore offers (unquestioned from a knowledgable point of view), unfortunately, to the downside of the local low income residents.

SO THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE AND WORK IN HAIKU SHOULD BE FORCED OUT BY AN ILLEGAL BUSINESS. RIGHT.

It's kind of that capitalistic force and direction that can be found in free a society, and it truly works to limit the opportunities of those at the bottom of the income ladder, especially if it was a previous stronghold for the poor. Living in Santa Barbara, I readily understand the consequences in this type of situation. But in a free market, the forces can undermine those with little strength and financial holdings, and this advantages those with greater strength, vision and capability. Therein lies the dilemma here.

DUDE, IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE A 'FREE MARKET'. ALL WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS SHUTTING DOWN AN ILLEGAL BUSINESS.

Is the county government up for the real future? Unhappily, I don't think so. Yet, these limited horizon folks were elected by the residents of Maui, and that has meaning overall, at least to confuse reality. However, can the will of the locals win over the future of a vacation focused Maui, only time will tell.

HMMM, SO YOU THINK THE RESIDENTS OF MAUI SHOULD'NT BE ALLOWED TO ELECT GOVERNMENT THAT THEY FEEL REPRESENTS THEIR INTERESTS? SAY, HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF DEMOCRACY? IT'S PART OF THAT 'FREE SOCIETY' YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT.

DAMN, STEVEC, THIS IS A NEW LOW, EVEN FOR YOU!

Unregistered
14th March 2008, 05:05 AM
Hey, does Pontificators Anonymous have a Santa Barbara chapter? Serious question - if someone from SB was feelin' all 'ponty', who would they turn to?

antipost
14th March 2008, 04:06 PM
...is getting busted running and illegal TVR a "criminal" offense or a "civil" offence in the USA?

Hey super, in the US, criminal law typically is prosecuted by the government, and civil law is usually prosecuted by private parties. So, to answer your question, running an illegal TVR is a criminal offense, as it is a violation of a County statute which would be enforced by the government.

Keep in mind, the US legal system distinguishes between different classes of criminal offenses. For example, the federal government generally considers a crime punishable by more than five days up to a year in jail to be a misdemeanor, while considering crimes punishable by greater than a year in prison to be felonies; crimes of five days or less in jail, or no jail at all, are considered infractions. This is in contrast to other common law jurisdictions like Canada, Australia, the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom, where crimes are divided into "summary offences" and "indictable offences." Maybe you're familiar with one of these systems? All this being said, without directly consulting the statutes, I couldn't tell you where offenses like illegal operation of a TVR and evading excise tax payments fall on the spectrum. Probably, the other poster's guesses of a misdemeanor for the former and a felony for the latter are correct.

If you're really interested in US Law, but not enough to go to law school in the US to learn all of its intricacies, I suggest that you get a hold of the Law and Order TV Series DVD box sets for a few seasons, and spend a few weeks familiarizing yourself with how it all works. At the end of it you'll be at least as qualified to practice law as most US attorneys, and you might even be ready to pass the legal bar exam. You might also find it highly enjoyable - possibly even more enjoyable than windsurfing or making random posts on internet forums. In one of the show's most interesting episodes, a reputable dentist hires a prostitute to squash bugs underfoot on the floor of his office - this happens to be an established sexual fetish known as giantessophilism; its adherents, whose mannerisms and conduct bear a striking resemblance to those of poster SteveC, are known as "crush freaks." He compensates her with free dental work. Legal complications ensue, after his assistant is mysteriously murdered in an adjoining office...

Just in case you'd like to be even more mystified on the not-so-fine points of US law, consider this: in the mid-1990s, renowned former American Football player and celebrity OJ Simpson was acquitted of the murder of his wife in criminal court, and found guilty and liable in civil court. America, love it, or leave it.

steveC
14th March 2008, 04:20 PM
It's interesting how bold unregistered folks can be, especially since they don't want to take any real responsibility for their comments. They're kind of an anonymous voice out of the woodwork where history and ownership has no real meaning.

While some of you folks may not appreciate my point of view, and that's quite clear from some of the comments, truly a forum like this is really a opportunity to voice our opinions and thoughts. I don't always expect that we will all agree on sensitive topics like this one, but there's still good reason to comment.

Unregistered
15th March 2008, 03:40 AM
Instead of changing the subject (again!), why not address some of the points that were raised in response to your previous posts?

Bottom line - it is always good to hear all sides of an issue. But your mindless regurgitation of the idea that an illegal business should be allowed to destroy a local community despite countless well-informed rebuttals has become really irritating.

We get it - YOU (who haven't been here since 1997 and have no clue as to the actual situation, or the demographic make up of those who wish to leave current zoning ordinances which prohibit TVRs unchanged) - are going to make an extra special effort to also not visit THIS year because you take exception to the idea that ohana, kokua and aloha are important to the people that live here.

I'm guessing Maui will manage to survive your boycott, as would this forum should you decide to take things to the next level.

Unregistered
15th March 2008, 07:14 AM
steve c i agree , and not just because i think VR whould not have been delt so heavily handed .But there is merit for doing what maui country did
But to the point of my comment, one: I think IMHO most of the "opinions" from these anon folks are just one "folk". I beleive the same "individuals" well thought out arguments can be found on old archived blog comments over at giampaolos maui-windsurf report website. The way this person uses language fits the bill.

Two: I cannot understand the mindset of a person whos well though logical reasoning slowly degrades into insults.
Unregistered, your arguments are very valid and well thought out and make sense , but why then taint them with high browed insults???
Because you disagree???
such actions just degrade the same points you have taken so much time to develope.
Even after these actions , I respect your opinions but further attacks will lead to a loss of respect for you.

observer

Unregistered
15th March 2008, 08:53 AM
Observer

If you read my earlier posts (7,12,13) I really WAS trying to have an intelligent conversation with SteveC before I allowed my frustration to get the better of me. My bad for calling him a troll, though.

I have never posted on the Maui-Windsurf Report website, but I do know that there are quite a few people within the Maui windsurf community who share my view that the county is doing the right thing. The idea that there is a lone troll promoting an anti-TVR agenda by posting on ALL the forums, writing ALL the letters to the editor etc has been flogged to death by the TVR camp.

The truth is that there are three well-reasoned dissenting voices in this thread alone on an obscure windsurfing forum. That should tell you something.

Da Kine Braddah
15th March 2008, 08:59 AM
You guys have to understand, not all locals are against the TVR. You happen to have one guy here in this forum. I would be willing to bet he isnt even born and raised on Maui. Anyways, doesnt matter. The fact is many of us support the existance of TVrs. I am in no way involved in the business but when family come to Maui, they need cheap place to stay and I cant put everyone in my place, so, the TVRs are convenient.

Many of who voted for Charmain are sorry we did so. She is not really acting with Aloha but with heavy hand. The TVR industry is an important part of the economy and with properly regulation will continue to be so. Most of us agree that instead of the heavy handed approach the mayor is taking she should have gone the route of going after the problem business that had complaints, and actively going after them. Some neighborhoods actually like have the TVRs. I know my street in Haiku used to have this place down the way that was boarded up and attracted the kids and druggies. Someone bought the place, cleaned it up nice and we never have trouble ever again. No more break ins. Good for everyone on our street.

As much as "unregistered" has an ax to grind, luckily he is in the minority. Recently the county council has gotten to the table with real solutions to the mess and are proposing changes that would allow for most of these business to open up again. There are goign to be some changes, but for the most part, all will be good to go. The changes they are proposing make sense for the long term. Going forward only the problem TVRs are going to be shutdown.

Also, 'unregistered' may not know it or not, but most of the TVRs were compliant with the state tax law and were already paying the hotel rate. Thats why you havent heard about any massive tax crack down in the mix with the county actions. The 'illegal' TVRs have been looking for regular and steamlined process for many many years. Its finally coming. Unfortunately, it may be too little too late for many families here who lived on Maui for generations if not foreva, and used TVR to keep affording to live in da place of their birth, but now are in foreclosure. Very sad day for many families here. Many people think this is all about the rich haloe coming to Maui. The majority of these places are home grown local style. Anyways. Resolution coming soon.

Peace and aloha....

Kaleo

Unregistered
15th March 2008, 10:45 AM
Hey Dakine

My family used to stay in TVRs too. Now they stay somewhere else. Life goes on.

Think about this:

That house in Haiku could have been bought by the children of a third or fourth generation family and fixed up just as nicely. If they didn't have to compete with TVR 'investors', they could have got it cheap, too.

The third and fourth generation families bought their houses long before the real estate bubble - the houses are going into foreclosure are the ones that traded in the past few years when families had no choice but to pay inflated prices. Those prices were fueled by low interest rates and TVRs creating a huge demand in a market with limited supply.

Finally, I don't have an axe to grind - if anything, I lose when TVRs are shut down, because the market value of MY house goes down. But I think I will win in another area - I think the north shore will be a nicer place to live for my keiki if the people born and raised here with normal jobs can afford to buy a house and continue to live here.

I think that is far truer to the spirit of aloha than the short term gain of a few at the expense of many.

Unregistered
15th March 2008, 08:40 PM
Not to sound like the chiding mother but thats more like it.
I too hope their is a golden middle somewhere.
i think in 50 years maui will be more laid back then some think. And it all comes down to fossil fuels.
the writing is on the wall.
While air travel is still cheap , it will not be like this forever. The economic changes that more expensive oil will bring is such that less people will travel to maui as they simply will not be able to afford the airfare.
sound dumb?? well i dont think so.
Now one might think that the rich will still be able to go to maui. Maybe the very rich , but while everyday their are more people in the world there are less rich people and anyways the baja is closer.
it also will be more expenisive to live in maui, and if one is reliant on things shipping in from off island.
then the people of maui will have real challenges, plantations all over again and maybe real food crops will be grown.
perhaps poi back in style as a staple not a luau curiosity.

humans have a short memory. and we are lucky we live in the time that we do.