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View Full Version : Warning on claiming Neilpryde Mast warranties!!


wk
6th February 2008, 08:21 AM
Hi guys,

Just want to share my recent experience.. time to burn all my Neilpryde sails!

Many thanks for your e-mail explaining the dates in relation to claim ID # 5394. I have reviewed the case and regret that we have still declined this warranty. The reasons are as follows.

The warranty period is for six months on X9 masts and this covers faults in materials and workmanship in that time. Unfortunately it is widely believed that a 6 month warranty covers breakage in that period no matter what happens to the mast but in fact, this is not the case. As stated above, the mast needs to have a materials or workmanship fault in order to qualify as a warranty. The only sure way to judge this is to review the usage by qty of total hours of use on each mast. The following is a quote from our warranty policy of Dec 2006,

Our experience has shown that, given the intense loads placed on a mast by modern windsurfing sails, any material or manufacturing defect will almost certainly result in breakage within the first six to eight hours of sailing. If a mast breaks after an initial period of trouble free use, our research has shown it is typically due to mishandling or misadventure rather than material defect. This is not a warranty.

With carbon structures such as an X9 mast the quality of the construction can be established very early in the life of the product. Masts therefore tend to have a problem in the first few hours of use and fail, which would indicate a warranty, or they survive the first hours intact, as this mast has done. With 18 hours of use on the water, the mast was clearly delivered to the customer in the correct structural condition.

If a mast breaks subsequent to this, it is likely that the failure has been caused by misadventure or mishandling and not from there being a problem with the mast construction. This is the basis on which we judge X9 mast failures and is similar to that used in other industry's that sell carbon / glass structures.

Please feel free to contact me if there is anything unclear in the above.


regards,


David Mead
Production Manager
Neil Pryde Windsurfing

Ola_H
6th February 2008, 12:31 PM
Interesting...

Maybe its a mis-print in their advertising material. It should be 6 hours warranty not 6 months.

Floyd
6th February 2008, 05:56 PM
And poster 1 is assuming mast was used to its design limits in first few uses.
Mast might not be put to its "test" for quite a while !(And still within design limits)
Why cant NP test all masts just post manufacturer (especially X9.)?
Perhaps they`d break too many !!!

Sounds to me as thoug NP are using customers as testers.
"It might break first time used but after that it should be OK "
Not confidance inspiring is it ??

Floyd
6th February 2008, 06:00 PM
Sory Not Poster 1. David Mead.

Phill104
6th February 2008, 08:53 PM
Similar cases have appeared in the UK with Roach Poles, not too dissimilar construction to a mast and in many cases built in the same production plants.

In the case of the Roach Poles, the argument was put to the court by the manufacturer that the poles must have been abused. In all the cases reported in the angling press the courts found in favour of the consumer as the manufacturer could not clearly prove that the poles had been abused.

UK consumer law is very different to many other countries so things may be looked at very differently in other parts of the world.

Ken
7th February 2008, 04:48 AM
A 90kg pro Formula sailor pumping his rig to get on plane in a race will put a hell of a lot more stress on the mast than my 80kg amature racing body can do. Point being, I could have a defective mast and not break if for months or years.

I guess the answer is, when we get a new mast, we downhaul it to the max, find the biggest guy on the beach and have him pump the hell out of the rig for 30 minutes to see if it will break. If it does, presto - a valid warrantee claim.

AlexWind
7th February 2008, 06:53 AM
It's really a shame for the company who claims to be the first one in the sport! A S H A M E!
Why don't they give an accurate support and warranty after people PAY EXAGERATE MONEY for their products?
Here at my place eaven a small and not too good manufacturer like Decatholn changes their broken masts without problems..
Neil jewels can't be replaced without extra money?

Shame on you! I don't think the CEE tribunals or US ones would agree on your interpretation of warranty, i wish a good windsurfing lawyer would take you in front of a court..

The only way these people reason is $ so don't buy their products and go for other brands!
They did good some year ago when they were smaller or maybe more motivated, now NP is not doing well in this area..

Unregistered
7th February 2008, 11:25 AM
This is preposterous. Neilpryde are a bunch of clowns. I will never buy anything from this company - NEVER!

Thanks for spreading the word about this serious abuse of consumer confidence.

geo
7th February 2008, 03:14 PM
One more thought. Usually racing materials such as X9 masts aren't too easy to get. Usually you have to order well in advance, and wait.
In any case, the "special 6 month warranty" on racing masts, while EC laws say warranties must be issued for 24 months, is a clear indicator of somewhat faulty reliability.
Now, even if Neil Pride was honoring its warranties, what would happen if your new mast, that you purchased to get the best possible performances out of your racing sail, fails in the middle of the European Summer season, that is probably when you need that mast the most and also when you can't find any in stock?

Unregistered
7th February 2008, 03:42 PM
And poster 1 is assuming mast was used to its design limits in first few uses.
Mast might not be put to its "test" for quite a while !(And still within design limits)
Why cant NP test all masts just post manufacturer (especially X9.)?
Perhaps they`d break too many !!!

Sounds to me as thoug NP are using customers as testers.
"It might break first time used but after that it should be OK "
Not confidance inspiring is it ??

I second that. If the design defects are so readily detected in the first few hours, why don't they just test the heck out of the mast at the factory. That has to be cheaper than shipping the mast around the world and then dealing with the warranty hassles and consumer bad will.

I'm really curious what is the wholesale price that NP pays for each mast... Somebody must know!

Unregistered
7th February 2008, 06:14 PM
''I'm really curious what is the wholesale price that NP pays for each mast... Somebody must know! ''

200-250 euro.

Unregistered
7th February 2008, 07:28 PM
less than a 100Euro each.

Unregistered
8th February 2008, 02:17 AM
X9 530 end user price is round 1.000 EUR in Poland for a customer who used to be a pretty loyal to a brand and to a local NP dealer. It looks that I would rather go for an alternative sail brand than spend more than my monthly salary for an expensive mast without any valuable warranty...

Or will find a mast alternative. Does Reglass still manufactures X9 range? Does anyone can confirm it? I thought I will do some national racing this season again but today things are going worse and worse...

Happy sailing to all NP users

Regards

Expander
8th February 2008, 04:57 AM
--

Following you can read a detailed reply about X9 530 issues when, some years ago, this questions was highlighted at Neil Pryde Forum (now closed).

Many people contacted me about; now I think it could be a good idea to re-post this reply because I see, after more than two years, that X9 masts breackages (even Ultra model) are yet a concrete nightmare.

Note: this reply IS DATED december 2005


PREAMBLE: I'm not connected in ANY WAY with any of commercial brands mentioned in this message; following considerations have to intend as expression of a personal thought and in the same way they relieve me from responsibilities of any kind.

date: december, 2005


Dear ALL,


as written in NP Forum some weeks ago, I've just bought a second-hand Neil Pryde RS5 10.7.

Resolute in resolving the well-known X9 mast issue and, after I have highlighted this question in NP Forum with no circumlocutions, same days later I was contacted by an italian windsurfer.

This guy had the fortune to compare NP X9 530 with other two masts of different brands, REPTILE Race 550 and another one, always 550 long, for the present I want to call "The Other".

Only REPTILE mast, as I've discovered later, is made by TRIANA, a weel-known italian manufacturer specialized in working carbon parts; "The Other", instead, is produced by REGLASS, another italian manufacturer.

Well, this italian windsurfer tells me he has made both a VISUAL comparation on these masts (physical comparation on type of materials, surface finishing, rings and caps, and on how these masts fit in his RS5), both in THE FIELD, that is in how they have reacted in terms of performances.

This guy, I think a very meticulous guy, is come to a close: REPTILE mast is a good mast but there is something that makes it a merely COMPATIBLE mast, as X6, and NOT a full replacement of X9.

"The Other" mast, instead, has JUST SAME physical characteristics and performances of X9, or rather IS RIGHT the X9, with absolutely no dubts (or better, with a very low-error margin).

Anyway I have found other further confirmations to his assessments, in the end my opinion, too: I've rigged my RS5 with this mast and, even if I haven't tested it in the water, this sail seems to be rigged with just right mast.

The mast in question, as many have already guessed, WAS CHALLENGER Performance 550, IMCS 35 - kg. 2,2 as visible at link:

http://www.challengersails.com/performance.htm (now not working link)

However, what led me to buy CHALLENGER mast, is another question.

I've called CHALLENGER SAILS factory based in Senigalia, Italy, and I've spoken with Mr. CLAUDIO, I think the head sailmaker, and this gentleman tells me the HIS "real" story of these blessed X9...

In practice, as other persons have empirically verified (persons that, as me, are not connected in ANY WAY with CHALLENGER), masts made with this brand (PERFORMANCE models) are SAME masts produced
by REGLASS for NEIL PRYDE (in 2003 and 2004), this because they are manufactured on JUST SAME spindle used to make X9, using SAME material, rings, etc., following JUST SAME technical production processes obtaining a product with JUST SAME reflex and bend characteristics.

The difference, apart from lenght of 20 cm, is JUST in that additional layer of carbon fiber that CHALLENGER has specifically requested and that makes its masts a little bit heavier than X9... apart from strength issue, this has allowed REGLASS to fully warrant its products while, for X9, this was not possible.

The think might seem incredible but he tell me this manufacturer didn't give any warranty for X9 because REGLASS engineers said to NP gentlemen clearly: "This mast of 2 kgs is at limit of its structural specifications and so, probably, it will broke... if you want we'll build it anyway but we can't give you any warranty on this product; if it'll broke it'll be only a problem of your..."

And so it's clear recent NP policy in returning broken X9 and refunding it with a X6 and 300 euros bonus... evidently the manufacturer has a clear conscience because, when a similar thing happens, the producer is responsible for himself and is forced to replace a defective product with another one but just alike.

Anyway, even if it might sound a little bit strange CHALLENGER tell me a such incredible story without thinking they want to sell their masts, I think to have too many confirmations about and that we are not so far from reality.

That's all; end of incredible (but plausible) story.

At this point, if you want, you can contact CHALLENGER at following address:

VELERIA CHALLENGER SAILS S.N.C.
Via Fattori, 12
60019 Senigallia (Ancona) - ITALY
Phone 39 071 6609558
Fax 39 071 6609557

e-mail: veleria@challengersails.com

and tell them you want to speak directly with Mr. CLAUDIO (he speaks english) regarding CHALLENGER masts availability and X9 issues.

As you can see at Performance 550 web page, its price was very competitive (about 500 euros) till november 2005; I don't know if prices for this product will be different for 2006.

Furthermore, I've seen a list of international CHALLENGER dealers at following link:

http://www.challengersails.com/dealers.htm (now not working link)

I hope all this may be useful for you and it will resolve all your RS5 and X9 issues.

-- end of reply

As said above, about two years are passed but it seems that X9 / X9 Ultra problems are always there, unresolved.

At present day I don't know if Challenger Sails sells Formula mast and if current "Performance" mast (if yet in production) has same mechanical characteristics of old 2005 model...

But I think it might be a starting point for everyone has misfortune of breaking a X9 and wants a cheaper and reliable solution.

Anyway I suggest to check a recent post about MaverX masts made by REGLASS, same manufacturer of NP masts till 2006:

http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3098

I hope all this could be of some usefulness.

- Exp.

AlexWind
8th February 2008, 06:55 AM
Nice article even if i've already known the topic..

The only thing i wish to add to the story is that the fact two masts are done in the same factory (many of the 100% carbon masts are done here in Italy by Reglass or Triana) DOESN'T mean the two masts are the same!
It could be (and it is) that two masts of different brands produced in the same place are just the same but it could be not also.
So always check..

Another thing is that NP (for instance..) changes the mast curve almost each year so a NP 06 mast could not be good for a NP 08 sail and vice versa..

Isn't this "nice"?

Expander
8th February 2008, 03:38 PM
...many of the 100% carbon masts are done here in Italy by Reglass or Triana)...




Hi Alex,

you have forgotten another italian manufacturer, ITALICA S.p.A., that makes all masts for NORTH SAILS (at least Gold and Platinum models)



...another thing is that NP (for instance..) changes the mast curve almost each year so a NP 06 mast could not be good for a NP 08 sail and vice versa...



Somewhere someone said: "mast is the backbone of sail" and so its importance is crucial in sail performances; nevertheless I think we haven't to fall in a masts schizophrenia (paranoia) only because sellers, for a well known marketing reason, want to sell always new products.

For example, this year I wanted to buy a North 520 Platinum mast (made by Italica but very expensive for my budget) and I've found that it was perfectly replaceable with a mast of another brand (to which I don't want to make advertising), but always made by Italica... I repeat, it is perfectly replaceable but really cheaper.

About NP X9, I don't think they are so crazy to change mast curve every year... but I'm not so updated about and, today, nothing surprises me any longer !!

- Exp.

AlexWind
8th February 2008, 04:44 PM
Yeah of course, there's Italica too.. My NS mast has been made there :)

According NS masts, yeah I know there are at least one brand who's doing exactly the same wave masts and a bit different (softer on bottom) race masts ;)

For NP I'm pretty sure of what I've said before: I'm not talking on marketing (which of course is marketing..) but according to specific measurements..

P.S. I tryed to send you an email or a mp but it seams you didn't allow forumers to do that..

Expander
8th February 2008, 05:57 PM
P.S. I tryed to send you an email or a mp but it seams you didn't allow forumers to do that..




...try now...

Phill104
9th February 2008, 02:39 AM
Last year Boards Mag did a very good article testing different masts in various sails. The results were very interesting and showed that in some cases sails from brand a actually worked better with mast from brand b rather than the same brand. Some masts really were incompatible with some sails.

There was a very long and interesting thread on the Boards forum following the article with a few sailmakers getting involved.

Well worth reading.

Expander
9th February 2008, 03:37 AM
--

Hi Phill,

might you be so kind to scan that Boards Magazine article where they tested different masts in various sails ?

Without involving Starboard in copyright issues, you could upload scans in some files sharing host (i.e. imageshack.us) & simply post link here.

I think that information will be really appreciate by all of us.

- Exp.

Phill104
9th February 2008, 04:28 AM
I would love to scan the article but I would probably incur the wrath of Mr Dawes (The Editor)

Most of the points are discussed in the thread on the boards forum.

http://www.boards.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14552&KW=mast+article&TPN=1

Maybe if you are going to discuss this you should start a new thread rather than continuing with one started by someon who obviously has the hump.

Expander
9th February 2008, 04:45 AM
...I would love to scan the article but I would probably incur the wrath of Mr Dawes (The Editor)...


Yes, I realize your position...


- Exp.

SeanAUS120
10th February 2008, 11:04 PM
Interesting post.

It's a pity someone could have written this 3 years ago and it would've read exactly the same problems.

For interest, there's some more discussions here about mast construction and its effects on end consumer price:

http://www.carbonsugar.com/design/why-do-masts-keep-breaking/

See post 7 and 8 for some insights from people in the industry.

steveC
11th February 2008, 01:59 AM
Thanks Sean for above post and the link to your website. Don McCormick's take on carbon composites is always a great plus. I still am using one of his booms from the Corpus Christi days. In fact, I still have all the remains from about 4 more of his booms, and I have often toyed with the idea of repairing them. I always realy liked the design of the carbon rear end. So simple and direct, without all added plastic and metal components that are often used today.

jafa
11th February 2008, 06:19 PM
Peter Man has some interesting data on masts from different manufacturers and good info on IMCS.
http://www.peterman.dk/start-windsurfing-gb01.htm

Screamer
11th February 2008, 07:56 PM
I remember when this issue arose a few years ago - NP formula masts breaking at an astonishing rate. I can't find the link to their ridiculous explanation, or to the following thread on this forum (if somebody finds it please post here).
It was ARROGANT and INSULTING.
They don't deserve the position they're on right now.

GS_NPUSA
12th February 2008, 02:51 AM
First of all I have to say that I am speaking solely in reference to our North, Central and South American distribution / dealer network. Servicing the better part of the western hemisphere excluding the Hawaiian Islands.

Take into consideration I've been at the US based distribution for NeilPryde (Adventure Sports) for 
well into 7 years now. I've worked with just about every windsurfing related product line in the Pryde Group family at a Brand Management level (at one point or another) and have seen the best and worst of it in this regard. I will say, regarding formula gear specifically, the sails have a remarkably low warranty rate. The X9 Race masts we know had some issues the past couple of seasons hence the change in development and production, as well as the change in manufacturer policy regarding warranty.

Iíd imagine the change is largely based on the fact that in as many valid claims that have been handled by NP (on X9 Race masts specifically) several claims were found to be bogus and caused by mistreatment of the gear in question. Itís understood this is not always the case. More than often claims are denied simply because the consumer, or dealer (in some cases), cannot or do not provide a sufficient amount of required information to the manufacturer.

In these cases, one thing I am sure of is that Adventure Sports has gone to every possible length to ensure that all X9 warranty claims have been handled for our dealers and their customers. This includes many claims that our production team may have opted to deny initially. You can imagine this takes a tremendous amount of correspondence and regrettably, time in order to process any grievance from a distribution level with the manufacturer. Again, many times the initial denial of the claim is based solely on a lack of information provided. Including proof of purchase receipts, at times duplicate serial numbers are claimed, lost items claimed, etc.

Firstly, the earlier speculation on wholesale pricing is bogus.

Secondly, regarding service issues; I can't speak of the service provided by another NP distributor somewhere else in the world. I will say undoubtedly (with 
all history aside between Adventure Sports and our current and past 
dealer network) that Adventure Sports has not only listened very closely to the points made by our retailers and end consumers alike, but long ago recognized any shortfalls of our own and have taken great strides over the years to improve our level of service. With warranty claims in particular, we put an incredible amount of time into reviewing each claim thoroughly and follow through personally with production to ensure our customers are taken care of. I'm certain our current dealers would attest to this. More to this point, I'm speaking of the 'Here and Now'. Yesterday's a world away.

The fact is ourselves as a distributor turnover what I'll say is a very large number of sails, rigs, accessories, etc. I hear NeilPryde Windsurfing bashed continually. Frankly, this false perception is based on past service related and product issues dating back several years along with current miss-information.

Consider that NeilPryde has a very expansive line of products. All of which carry an extremely low warranty rate as a whole. We hear the most of issues regarding very specialized products for a core group of racers and/or including narrow product categories. Unfortunately for us this is usually the most vocal group of sailors and the speculative trickle down effect to other racers and/or recreational sailors is usually not leaning in our favor.

The facts are as I see it, and yes, I certainly have a bias in this case. NeilPryde has put a remarkable amount of time into the development and effort into servicing each and every claim to the best of their ability. They rely highly on the efforts and knowledge of their distribution network to make this happen. The complexities of production are sometimes unforeseeable but NeilPryde products as a whole are of sound quality. The performance in many if not most cases are unmatched.

As fantastical a name that NeilPryde Windsurfing is in the industry, the reality is that the brand unit itself; from the research and development team, production and marketing team alike, consist of a relatively small number of purist, windsurf enthusiasts, whoís end goal is really to produce the best windsurfing equipment available. I know these folks well and also know their involvement with NeilPryde starts with their love for the sport.

In that vain, we at Adventure Sports take great strides in providing an extremely high level of service including a dedicated team to warranties and on hand assessment by management. All management of which have been involved in the sport of windsurfing for at least 20 years. I'm personally dedicated to changing the perception. I know better you see. I'm well aware of where we excel 
and hyper aware of where we fall short. One thing for sure is our love and loyalty to the sport and its participants is true, as well as our support for NeilPryde Windsurfing.

Garrett Scotti
Division Manager
NeilPryde Windsurfing / JP-Australia

AlexWind
12th February 2008, 04:08 AM
First of all I want to thank Mr. Garrett Scotti for his reply, it's always usefull to have a real "debate" and to have the point of view of as many parts as possible.
Nevertheless i wish to point your attention to some sentences taken from the first post and from the NP internet page:

(omissis)
With 18 hours of use on the water, the mast was clearly delivered to the customer in the correct structural condition.

If a mast breaks subsequent to this, it is likely that the failure has been caused by misadventure or mishandling and not from there being a problem with the mast construction. This is the basis on which we judge X9 mast failures and is similar to that used in other industry's that sell carbon / glass structures.
(omissis)

Ok that's the first part, here goes the second one:

NeilPryde warrants that this product, when it is purchased from an authorized NeilPryde dealer by a retail customer, will be free from defects in materials and workmanship for a period of six (6) months from the date of purchase by the original retail customer. This warranty is solely for the benefit of the original retail purchaser and may not be assigned.


Well, now do you really think there're no "black points" in this two statements, all clear no problems?
So you're telling your customer who has spent a consistent amount of $Ä to purchase what is advertised to be the best mast of the brand that not only he have to accept the six month warranty (when for instance ALL PRODUCTS sold in European Union MUST have two YEARS warranty) but that warranty is practically reduced to a range of 18 hours of use?!?
Isn't that a little bit contra legem, against law and reliance of the customer himself?

I've no doubt you work with the best purposes, passion, professionality etc but for these reasons I'm still surprised that (now and tomorrow, not yesterday) the things stay like that..

GS_NPUSA
12th February 2008, 05:09 AM
I'm basically repeating what I've listed on a local forum earlier but just would like to note the following:

I cannot rightly respond on behalf of NeilPryde as a 
manufacturer and in no way intend to do so. My point was to make clear 
the responsibilities of ourselves as a distributor, hence my statement regarding service at the distributor level.

As I noted earlier, NeilPryde relies highly on the efforts and knowledge of their distribution network to validate any and all claims. I'm certain in fact, that this claim was not considered blindly by David Mead.

I do want to make it clear that as much as it is the
retail dealerís obligation as a representative carrier or 'Authorized Dealer' of NeilPryde products to support and service the brands they carry, it is the distributors duty in turn, to support and service their dealers that have signed up for just that responsibility. This means going to bat for them and their customer, even when it means going against the brandís initial assessment of the claim in question. I cannot assuredly say this course of action was taken in this instance.

More over, Iím not necessarily a fan of the policy but it is what it is. That being said if the distributor is unable to secure a suitable response from the manufacturer on any claim, I feel it's now our obligation as a distributor (if we believe the claim to be valid) to right the situation by providing a 
replacement or credit where applicable to the dealer, so he/she can 
appropriately service their customer. In other words, we take it on the chin and settle with NP in our time.

This is most assuredly the course of action Adventure Sports has taken over the past 2 seasons. We win some we lose some. More won than lost I might add. However, itís my belief; internal issues between distribution and production, should stay internal issues. The consumer is the first concern and keeping them on the water with as little red tape as possible is our first objective.

Kind Regards,

Garrett Scotti
Adventure Sports
Division Manager
NeilPryde Windsurfing / JP-Australia

Screamer
12th February 2008, 09:17 AM
Mr. Scotti
Thanks for your answers. It would be great if NP themselves had similar attitude/policies as you towards their customers.
6 months/18 hours warranty contradiction still stands. Refusal to answer, deleting "inappropriate" posts on their forum, etc, etc.

Tosser
12th February 2008, 12:20 PM
NP will never answer you directly. I had the age old problem of the luff tearing, and seams falling apart. After many posts on the old NP forum, not once did any direct representative from NP give an answer, only the odd distributor. And not once did any of them admit to a fault in the sails...oh no... it was all my fault according to them.

Vote with your pounds, dollars , rands whatever, buy other brands. I went over to Ezzy - 3 years ago. When I initially got the sails, I was battling with rigging. Emails were sent to Dave himself...surprise, surprise, he answered everyone promptly. And no the luffs do not tear or seams fall apart!

NP is just a cheap make of sail with a huge amount of marketing behind them..forget them...go elsewhere.

GS_NPUSA
12th February 2008, 10:10 PM
Tosser,

I understand the frustration some people have regarding past warranty issues and/or response on technical inquiries for NeilPryde. I don't expect to change the world's perception of NP for these individuals overnight with one forum thread either. In my opinion, if the distributor is doing their best to support the retailer and/or the end user in their respective markets, the communication should stop there.

In our case we have a staff rooted in windsurfing. Each of which have been involved in the sport for over twenty years. I personally have great familiarity with all the products dating back several years and a great line of communication with our development team and international team riders if any inquiry is over my head.

As far as warranties go and as I stated in my earlier post, it's my feeling NeilPryde relies on us as a distributor to validate claims, take a proactive approach to servicing their/our customer and keeping them on the water.
My goal is to provide just this type of service for our respective markets through Adventure Sports.

It's understood people have choices and there's allot of good gear on the market. I have tremendous faith in the performance and quality of the product personally and hope to prove those that have lost faith in NP wrong. If I stand to be the whipping boy for a time, so be it. In the meantime, enjoy your time on the water, whatever it is you're riding. This is what it's all about in the long run anyway.

Kind Regards,

Garrett Scotti
Adventure Sports
Division Manager
NeilPryde Windsurfing / JP-Australia

wk
12th February 2008, 10:52 PM
Hi guys,

My dealer offered to replace the top piece of the X9 ultra out of his own goodwill and not Neilpryde. This is because I had over the past 2 years bought 1) 7.8 RSS 2) 2 X9 booms 3) 7.2 RSR 4) 5.7 Hellcat 5) 490 X6 6) 400 X6 wave and 2 MXT extensions amongst other NP products. Well I am sure not going to support NP anymore!

wk
12th February 2008, 10:54 PM
Oh and I forgot to add the 460 X9 Ultra! Go figure how much moola I have spent on NP gear in 2 years and this incident really pisses me off! I am not a sponsored sailor btw

GS_NPUSA
12th February 2008, 11:16 PM
Thanks for the feedback 'wk'.

This is the exact situation where I feel the dealer and distributor should have worked out a reasonable solution for a customer such as yourself, who appreciated the products, and perhaps once had a loyalty to the brand. Further to that point, sometimes the good folks in production just need to hear an elaboration of the facts to turn their position around. That's my job! These facts have to be appropriately relayed from the customer to the dealer and to someone such as myself that can put those wheels in motion.

The reality is unlike yourself, there are many that submit claims that are less than valid. We help weed through those claims and give the brand direction because we know our market and our customers best as their supplier.

Best Regards,

Garrett Scotti
Adventure Sports
Division Manager
NeilPryde Windsurfing / JP-Australia

AlexWind
13th February 2008, 06:13 AM
One last thing Mr. Garrett, I really don't want to abuse of your patience (and kindness: after all you're not obliged to came here and talk directly to customers as you're doing. For this I thank you again) then I won't bother you again I promise :-)

Try to think for one single moment as you were not the division manager of NP but a normal windsurfer (if a windsurfer can be "normal" but that's another unending theme..).
Or simply a customer in general.

Now, one day for all hypes and for testing, results, beauty whatever you decide to go to a Porsche saloon, ok?
All shiny new stuff, but you want the best: 911 GT2!
Outstanding product, air cutting device, beautifull, top technology, top performance, and of course top price!
Now, you sign, you pay and before you go out the dealer tells you: "You'll for sure be happy with your car sir, hear at the engine roar, look at the tyres, you won't have problems couse we take huge amount of tests on it and.. uh of course.. guess what.. 6 month warranty.. Have a nice drive!"

Now, of course that's a that's a joke, I hope I haven't offended anyone but that's (in small of course..) what is NP STILL telling the customers about their top products...
Do you honestly think it's fair, not reasoning by NP employee of course?

GS_NPUSA
13th February 2008, 07:11 AM
Alex,

I get where you're coming from. I really am just a normal windsurfer. I started with Adventure Sports in that vain alone. I've been sailing for a long time. For many years using a mix of brands, usually local. Anything I could get my hands on really. It wasn't until I met some of the guys at Adventure Sports several years ago that I even considered working in the industry.

Now my love for the sport has always been there. I had seen all the hype coming from one brand or another, but the truth is after sailing so many different brands over the years I was given the opportunity to try NeilPryde gear and fell in love with it.

As far as the response from our production team, as I stated earlier; the way I see it, the communication between the brand and the consumer should stop at the distributor level. Policies on high end, high performance race equipment will be restrictive. These 'guidelines' and policies do have exceptions and it's my job to convey to the brand when the exceptions apply.

Not to mention, (whether they like to hear it or not, and I'll probably get a slap on the wrist for saying this) the guys in production might not be the most savvy individuals when it comes to dealing with people at the grass roots level. They have deadlines, projections, quota's to meet... not to say they aren't windsurfers, but I have the stoke of a 20-30 knot multiple session Sunday spent on the water with my closest friends and many old school folks that watched me grow up who are still on the water at home to ground me.

Yes, it's a business I know, but I can tell you that with any brand especially at the distributor level, it's not entirely unlikely, that guy or girl on the other end of the phone with the dealer or the end user is just like you; frothing at the mouth for the next sign of wind coming to his or her local spot, hoping to get out for a dawn patrol before work.

I hear you and I know... I'm simply trying to show that NP is not a big conglomerate of corporate entities. It's starts at the core of us, the sport that drove us to this point and into the industry. If we're hear discussing it it's because we're windsurfers.

Thanks for lending your ear (or eyes as it were) and for your pointed inquiries Alex.

All the Best,

Garrett Scotti
Adventure Sports
Division Manager
NeilPryde Windsurfing / JP-Australia

Unregistered
13th February 2008, 08:19 AM
Just want to say that i know how WK feels. I used to only use NP sails, from the first RAF wave sails to my last VX2 sails.
Over that time i came to the conculsion that the brand was more about a marketing machine. Every year the sails were said to be 10% faster, so after 5 years, was i going 50% faster, well actually no.
Every year i changed out my sails, every year i needed new masts for those new sails.
Either different carbon content, different length, different stiffness, different bend, different diameter so that the cams did not fit, in fact any reason they could find to make me part with more money. Progress some would say.
Later i realised that year by year the quality was getting worse. Sails that felt good at the beginning, started to loose the feeling after a few months and really felt bad at 6 months. Stretching NP would say.
Over that period i had episodes of breaking masts(many), breaking booms, mono film breaking on the leech, breaking extensions and did i ever get a warrenty...........never. Seems like it was always my fault or wear and tear.

So one day i tried a sail from another well know sail manufacturer and to my surprise the sails were actually better in terms of peformance and quality.

The love affair ended.

Today NP still continue to have great marketing and can afford to flood the racing arena with their products.

WK, look around, there are many other as good or better performance products out there with a real warrenty support behind them.

GS_NPUSA
13th February 2008, 08:46 AM
Only a couple to things to say on this one.

1. They Listened
2. Entirely new design and development team from the time you refer too.
3. Great advancement in the materials being used for the actual production of the sails. Again, great advancements have been made on this front in recent years.
4. No redesign on rigs and components, including freeride masts intended for recreational sailing for several years running. (other than specialized race products as needed of course)

As far as warranties go; please refer to my earlier posts.

Kind Regards,

Garrett Scotti
Adventure Sports
Division Manager
NeilPryde Windsurfing / JP-Australia

Ken
14th February 2008, 12:29 AM
Guys,

I am not supporting Neil Pryde with these comments, but I think it applies to this discussion.

The design and technological advances made in windsurfing over the last 20 years is amazing. The top sailors / racers have demanded the fastest, best handling, most efficient & powerful equipment possible. Durability hasn't been much of a concern since the sponsored as well as the non-sponsored top riders turn their equipment over every year. There has always been competition between manufactures for the "best" equipment, so everyone designs their gear on the cutting edge of durability (a lighter mast will be faster, but less durable).

This kind of thought process has its advantages but it can come back to bite you as is the case with the Neil Pryde masts.

The big problem is with the average "joe windsurfer", who wants the best possible gear, but is unhappy when its durability doesn't stand up. When I buy the newest racing equipment, I know that there is some risk with durability and I accept that risk. Am I unhappy if something breaks? - you bet, but I am not pissed at the dealer, distributor or manufacture unless they don't stand behind their warrantee obligations.

Carbon formula masts have always been a problem, but some are trying to find a solution. Maui Sails for example have "beefed up" their SRS 100 masts so that breakage is less of a concern. The trade off is a heavier mast.

It's all about choices, some will make you happy, some won't. As consumers, we have to decide who best meets our needs and then buy their products.

steveC
14th February 2008, 02:44 AM
Over my long career in the field of procurement for a leading aerospace firm, the importance of quality and compliance to specifications was always a crucial focus point in our business relationships with other firms. Unfortunately, one finds that not all firms have their act together for one reason or another. In trying to work through the problems, one finds out pretty quickly about the integrity and commitment of a firm and its representatives. If a firm ultimately didn't measure up, they were history. Conversely, firms that had their act together, and problems do test that in many ways, became long term business partners we could rely on.

Really, I think one applies the same kind framework and expectations in our personal life, whether its about buying the products we need, or even in our relationships with others. Actually, in all likelihood, its much closer to our core interests, and therefore more important overall.

I can say that I've had pretty good luck with windsurfing equipment, and I haven't often needed to address warranty issues. But not to long ago, I uncovered an odd manufacturing defect in a Maui Sail carbon boom that I bought. I should point out that it took a few months to uncover the problem because it wasn't related to product failure (breakage). I must emphasize how impressed I was with both Barry Spanier's and Phil McGain's personal efforts to completely resolve my problem. These guys were keenly focused and totally dedicated to customer satisfaction. Not only are they designing benchmark products that reflect engineering excellence, they readily stand behind their products.

Contrary to some earlier thought here, it was quite clear to me the highest caliber performance products don't have to be of questionable integrity. Still though, stuff happens, and that's where rubber meets the road and ultimately tests one's dedication and loyalities.

Bill
14th February 2008, 04:04 AM
I believe that an open forum is not the place to discuss a personal grievance with a warranty.

Neil Pryde clearly state on their website the details of their warranty. It is obvious from some comments on this thread that some people have not read that warranty.

The whole situation to me appears to have been badly handled by all concerned. The result is that both parties, customer and supplier, have probably lost out.

Unregistered
14th February 2008, 04:35 AM
http://rsracing.neilpryde.com/x9-ultra/limited-warranty.html

Ken
14th February 2008, 04:49 AM
Bill,

I don't totally agree with you regarding the purpose of this forum. I think the discussion here is appropriate and all parties have had the opportunity to share their points of view. We as consumers are lucky to be privy to these discussions and issues. Hopefully, most of us have enough common sense to utilize the information in a beneficial way.

Is the Starboard forum the best place to discuss Neil Pryde's warrantee issues? Possibly not, but I would hate to see this forum get strangled like some of the others where the only topics discussed must be directly related to Starboard.

Over the last 24 years, I have purchased a ton of Neil Pryde products, and for the most part, I have been satisfied with their service and gear. Perfect? - no, but no company is. Some do try harder than others and for their efforts, they should be rewarded.

When one feels that they have been burned by a company and haven't been able to achieve satisfaction through the company, it's easy to understand why one would share their grievances on a public forum. Can it be biased and get out of hand? Sure and Starboard has the responsibility to manage it if they chose. This is their forum and they can decide what should or should not be acceptable dialogue.

steveC
14th February 2008, 05:33 AM
It's interesting to read NP's warranty on X9 products. I've never owned any NP stuff, so I've not had the opportunity to delve into the fine print associated with their products. I have to wonder though whether the warranties for different model lines are similarly worded or as restrictive. One thing was quite apparent in the X9 warranty is that the customer has to jump through a lot of hoops should a warranty issue surface, and then the situation seems quite dependent on multiple groups of folks at different levels as things step through the process. One wonders what the average time is to rule on a warranty issue, and in addition, how long on average it takes to get a replacement should the claim be deemed valid. Also, lots of grey areas where the customer can lose on subjectivity. The 18 hour framework scenario for mast failures mentioned earlier speaks loads about clearly subjective decisions.

I should point out that in the warranty situation I mentioned above in my prior post, all my contacts were made directly through the principals of Maui Sails, and that everything was handled very expeditiously and to my complete satisfaction. I didn't have to route things through the authorized retailer that I bought things through. Now I'm not saying that folks should buy Maui Sails over NP, or any other brand, but I just wanted to stress that the choice of a brand and who one works with makes a difference. Maybe I'm more happy doing business with smaller "more hands on" firms. In my opinion, tolerating a bunch of red tape and distance from the designer/manufacturer can be so frustrating. Over time, learning more on forums about the trials and tribulations of NP customers (sorry Bill), I know I'm best off steering clear of NP, despite the fact that they're offering some great looking products and that they unquestionably dominate at the pro level in many competitive segments of the sport.

Bill
14th February 2008, 05:55 AM
I have no issue with Starboard running the forum or allowing this thread.

Warranty disputes are not best resolved on any open public forum.

Emotions are stirred up, the red mist comes down and rationale tends to go out the window.

I feel some of the comments on the thread are misleading and harsh.

The full facts of the case in my opinion have not been presented.

Neil Pryde production manager and the shop owner have not responded to comments on the thread nor should they.

I still believe the whole episode has been badly handled by all concerned.

GS_NPUSA
14th February 2008, 06:10 AM
Please note there is a standardized warranty period of 1 year on all NeilPryde Products excluding X9 Ultra Masts shipped Ex Factory from 2007 see:

http://www.neilpryde.com/information/products/warranty-policy-limited-warranty-excluding-x9-ultra-m.html

Also, please note variance in limitations based on jurisdiction. Remember, this is a general policy and as always the distributor's job is to convey the exception, where applicable, in support of the dealer and/or end user.

AlexWind
14th February 2008, 05:37 PM
As I study law, just for you to know: the directive 44/1999 of European Union provides there's a window of two years from delivery of a consumer product during which the consumer may claim that the product was defective.
That means also that if a product was purchased with an undetectable defect but that defect became apparent after a while, then the consumer would have a claim against the seller under EU Directive 1999/44 to repair the defect.
It "works" of course even if the defect in the product (which must be fit for their intended purposes) has not have been apparent at the time the consumer made the purchase.
If the consumer makes a claim within six months of delivery of the product that the product was defective at delivery, the burden is on the seller to prove that the product was not defective at the time of sale. From six to twenty-four months it is the consumerís obligation to prove that the defect in the product existed at the time the goods were delivered to the consumer.

Care on this because many wsurfers are lawyers and as lawyers with some spare time are used to do in troubled cases, it's just matter of time I think..

Phill104
14th February 2008, 07:06 PM
AlexWind,

The EU Directive is just that, A directive. Not all EU members have taken it on board (excuse the pun). In the UK the sale of goods act is in force and in that there is no mention of two years warranty though for most goods an expectation of 1 year is made. Even after the warranty period if you can prove that a manufacturing defect was the problem then you can expect recompense. After the initial warranty period in many cases the waranty owner can reduce the recompense for general wear and tear leaving the consumer with nothing. Many choose not to do this however and will make a good will gesture.

It's even harder in some cases as the manufacturer will sell on the warranty to the distributor or even the dealer. If you buy some goods over here you make the contract with your dealer. Unfortunately everyone in the line tries to pass the buck leaving the consumer flailing in the dark. I've experienced this myself both with large companies and small.

I have to say that the one warranty claim I made with Starboard (Tushingham, UK distributors) was dealt with very quickly and involved no effort on my part. Customer service counts for a lot. Get it wrong and the consumer will never buy that brand again. If NP are getting it wrong it's in their interests to get things right or they will eventually loose their customer base.

nunu
14th February 2008, 07:40 PM
So i'am french, don't take care of my english.

I sail with NP products (RS 4 - RS6 ...). I had bad experience with Nautix Masts & NP masts on the RS4&RS6 9m≤. (3 Nautix Masts & 2 X9U broken & ; 1 X6 nearly broken).
The warranty has worked for 2 Nautix masts (the third were out of warranty) and all the NP masts were replaced under warranties (1 year).

The NP Masts were made in italy. The last mast (X9U), that is heavier (but it doesn't matter) is made in china and is still not broken ( ;) )

That types of troubles are very a shame because in term of performance sails are very good.
Circle of hoisting seems to much important, and made to much constraints to the masts ?!

regards

AlexWind
14th February 2008, 09:08 PM
I don't want to go too much off topic but at 1.1.2002 the following EU member states have implemented this EU Directive: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Germany The Netherlands, Norway, Italy and Sweden. The others have done that after this date or are implementing that directive by now.


Uk has done it on with the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulation Act 2002, valid from 31 March 2003, and I want to add that UK's time limit to make a warranty for initial defect product is still regulated by a previous law which states the time limit is of 6 years.

That's of course what law says. And it's only waiting for a lawyer windsurfer failure :-)

In general speaking if the things can go ok without laws and lawyers but only with good sense and efficient work by the two parts it's always better.

Phill104
15th February 2008, 01:30 AM
I understand the Sale of Goods Act. It would also take a good lawyer to make some of it stand in court and would be expensive.

In the UK as I'm sure you are aware, it is a small industry. Most customers are friends of the dealers or at least on first names. Many are struggling. I would feel guilty about taking them to court and I'm sure many others would too. Taking the distributors to court would be expensive and take a lot of effort. Taking the manufacturers to court would be nearly impossible.

If a brand is that bad the customer will soon move to a different product. In a small industry such as windsurfing this is bad news and has seen a number of brands either change distributor or no longer exist in the UK. Just a few sales can be make or break for some brands.

AlexWind
15th February 2008, 02:32 AM
Yeah I know it's expensive and in the 99% of the cases you won't even think about taking anyone to a court for that, that's why I said that this action could be taken only be a windsurfing lawyer..
That's how most things go here, I suppose it's not much different abroad..

Phill104
15th February 2008, 03:37 AM
I wonder what the actual percentage of warranty claims is for each type of product.

I bet boards are quite low. Sails are probably quite low too.

Things like booms and masts are probably higher and the hardest to prove fault.

From personal experience wetsuits are probably high. I've had a few fail. One had winter suit had no stitching at the groin:eek:, another wore through at the groin within 3 uses and one came apart at the zip due to poor stitching. I've seen a lot of dry zips fail to but proving misuse ore failiure proved difficult.

Bill
15th February 2008, 05:36 AM
wow! we appear to have people with limited legal experience who have managed without the full facts of this case to have apparently come to a judgement.

Phill104
15th February 2008, 03:25 PM
Bill,

Neither myself nor Alexwind are judging this case but are talking general warranty terms. As you will see, I have not mentioned any brands but have tried to be generic.

I too feel than an online forum is the wrong place for people to vent their frustrations which is what appears to be going on here. Feelings run high when a consumer feels let down.

Bill
16th February 2008, 04:43 AM
If NP are getting it wrong it's in their interests to get things right or they will eventually loose their customer base.

Phill104,

I respect your view and for me its one of the more balanced on this thread.

Sometimes though it's hard to be generic.

AlexWind
16th February 2008, 07:56 AM
Gosh I've nominated Porsche, I hope I hadn't do something wrong.. :)

Anyway I'm not judgeing anything only doing some considerations that may be summed in:

- the NP response to the customer showed in the first post in not what a customer (or at least I) would expect from such a company

- the terms of warranty shown even in their website or told by the NP employee are in contrast with the EU law (directive and states law). Not fully legal IMHO.

After that, I'm not judgeing the case itself: maybe the poster has crashed into rocks and went over his mast with his car, i simply don't know and maybe it's not the point..
Not judgeing just showing my opinion, you're of course free to show yours, discuss, object, whatever..

Bill
18th February 2008, 04:41 AM
Anyway I'm not judgeing anything

- the terms of warranty shown even in their website or told by the NP employee are in contrast with the EU law (directive and states law). Not fully legal IMHO.



Sounds like a judgement to me.

I disagree with your opinion but that's cool.

Good luck with your studies.

JJay
18th February 2008, 09:10 PM
It would be statistically interesting to know how many of the nearly 3 thousand people who have read this thread have had a NP mast break on them? The point should not be interpretations of law. The point should be about the mast inside your luff,,,,, right?

Relax and go fast.

Unregistered
19th February 2008, 03:53 AM
It's a good to know how the warranty is interpreted when you're thinking of buying something.
However in the UK at least 'fit for purpose for what it's sold' is overriding and a small claims procedure doesn't need a lawyer, and can be done over the net
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_rights/legal_system/small_claims.htm
I recently got a free replacement for a non WS item out of guarantee just by threating this action.

But sure brand reputation counts for most, and NP formula masts are known to be for the 'bleeding edge' buyer only.

PaulM

JJay
19th February 2008, 06:56 PM
Hi wk,,,,
A lot has been written on this thread. And i'm sure none of it makes you feel any better.
So when you get finished burning all your NP sails, call your local North Sails agent and order yourself some new gear!
I'm not attacking whoever sold you the mast, as i don't know if you were represented well by them. Maybe they went to bat for you and got refused by NP? I don't know?
However, as other posters on this thread have stated, having a rep/dealer/retailer who will give you personal service and go the extra mile for you is priceless and is part of the criteria I use for choosing a brand.
Your local North Sails agent is totally committed to her customers. The main reason i've become such a loyal and satisfied North customer is in fact due to her after sales support. I myself, and a number of others, continue to be loyal to her and the brand even though we are not living or sailing in your country.

So relax, buy an 08 warp, and go faster.

Ken
19th February 2008, 11:20 PM
I support what JJay has to say. I also believe that having a good local dealer is a huge benefit when it comes to problems related to service and warrantee issues.

A good local dealer knows (through experience) which manufactures and distributors stand behind their gear, as well as shipping orders in a timely way.

No question that the dealer network has been strained for many years, but supporting those that remain in business is good for all of us. You may save a few $ purchasing over the internet, but if something breaks or doesn't work right, good luck.

Bill
20th February 2008, 05:13 AM
Hi guys,

My dealer offered to replace the top piece of the X9 ultra


Sounds like a personal service and going the extra mile for the customer by the dealer.


Oh and talking of fast sails 2007 PWA slalom results Neil Pryde 1st with Maui sails 2nd.

reefmuncher
18th May 2008, 07:07 AM
Just been checking out old threads.

To be fair to NPUSA I had a 530 X9 of the newer type break on me. It was 9 - 10 months old but used maybe 5 - 7 times. I had rigged the RSS sail and walked to get the board. I heard a big bang and felt my heart sink!

Anyway to make a long story short I wrote Kevin at NP Maui just for reassurance and asked what he would do and he said they would most likely cover it. So the claim was sent to Adventure sports and within a month I had a new mast sent!

I have to say I was very relieved and it restored my confidence in the service. I have always liked their sails, I hope the breakage was a one off!

Unregistered
18th May 2008, 05:01 PM
What should be a standard basic service looks like a miracle...

reefmuncher
18th May 2008, 10:45 PM
Actually to me it looks like standard service if they never deny X9 claims.....

This is whay Kevin told me:

"NP accepts or denies warranty claims on X9 masts on a "case by case" basis. In my experience they have not denied any claims on X9 Ultra masts as a customer service. So, I would expect your claim to be honored. I've had very good luck with the new X9 Ultra masts - they seem to be holding up well, but there are always exceptions and NP has honored every claim I've made in those instances. They acknowledge the manufacturer has made some masts incorrectly, so they are being pro-active in honoring warranties as a customer service."


"I think the guys at ASI will be on your side. They'll do what they can to help keep you happy and using the products they sell.

I hope it works out for you...


Thanks, Kevin"

Unregistered
19th May 2008, 03:47 AM
the uk sale of good act does not stipulate a time frame- rather that the goods must be reasonably durable. 18 hours is not reasonably durable. If a uk seller was taken to court over this i would bet my bottom dollar that they would lose and the consumer would win. Reasonably durable would probably be at least 1 year- as a minimum. The wording of neil prydes warranty is irrelevant as the contract is between the consumer and the seller, or the shop. The warranty is between the shop/importer and the manufacturer.

secondly Neil pryde is wrong to say that if the mast had a fault it would fail in the first few hours of use. This is bullshit. Fatigue is a major composites failure mode that coud lead to failure over time, use cycles. It seems they are ignoring fatigue - which has got to make you laugh-what a load of shifty shisters!

geo
19th May 2008, 07:16 PM
I am astonished at seeing how people can ever keep choosing, among products with similar characteristics and performances, the one that will or could give them troubles.
There are a few makes that produce sails in the same league (at least) as NP ones: Gaastra, Maui Sails, North Sails (strictly in alphabetic order), maybe others. None of them have had the same problems with masts (in recent times at least) as Neil Pryde, none of them provide or try or threat to provide reduced or limited warranties on masts. Why should one still buy Neil Pryde race sails then?
More: having a mast replaced is not a solution, unless one has a back up and/or replacement is fast enough to avoid the new sail sitting unused for weeks while the conditions call.

Unregistered
19th May 2008, 07:22 PM
I was just about to express my same astonishment. Just unbelievable, must be marketing blindness and how confident would you be going sailing with a new mast with the exact same spec, produced by the same "qualified" people same processes etc than the one that let you down not that long ago...