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Unregistered
21st February 2008, 09:45 AM
Is the board going to change to a more planning hull for weymouth 2012?

James
21st February 2008, 09:28 PM
Some groups are going to lobby to change the board, but I doubt they will be successful. I recently talked to an RS:X racer who seemed confident that everyone would still be on RS:X in 2012.

Unregistered
22nd February 2008, 06:21 AM
Happy New Year!
2008 just started with some exiting one-off events on the agenda: Olympic Games in China, a board to be chosen for the 2012 London Olympics and a new ISAF rulebook 2009-2012 to be prepared. The IWA and its member classes hope to contribute to all of these.
The first item on the agenda is an evaluation - do we want to continue with the RS:X as the Olympic board? Do we want to see the RS:X replaced with a planing board?
It looks like now or never; Weymouth has promising wind statistics and the new ISAF policy that races should be held between 6 and 25 knots creates an opening for a one-design FW board to try to become Olympic. We can choose the 1992 path and first elect FW as the Olympic Class (with Formula Experience as a feeder class) and then in 2009 choose one board and one rig to become the Olympic one design. Or, we can propose this year a new one design FW class. By mid March the IWA should decide which path we want to follow.
Then we have the Olympic Games in Qingdao, China where we look forward to some exciting racing, hopefully in sufficient wind. Media coverage of this event is big and letís hope that the Medal Race and other changes to the sport will prove its value and make our sport more media-friendly.
Third and not least on the to-do list is to finalise the new rulebook in cooperation with ISAF. Some major changes will happen in rule 18 and 19 for the sailors and we also need some fine tuning there. Let's also use this opportunity to clean up the never-ending mess with the sail numbers. A proposal was tabled and accepted last November in Estoril, Portugal. Let's start communicating and get our act together in all Racing classes from 2009 onwards. A sail number is your personal logo and should be treated as a marketing tool for yourself and our sport.
Finally, we have to look further into the future of our fascinating sport. We have to clean up the structures, professionalize and market better our existing events and try to increase the number of Member National Associations in all our classes. A never ending struggle!
Good winds
Bruno De Wannemaeker
President IWA

Unregistered
25th February 2008, 04:55 AM
Can we get rid of Bruno as president first?

It makes it look like he has no consideration for any racing format bar FW. FW is great but in many countries it is NOT the most popular class. Many windsurfer racers have voted with their feet.

For Bruno to just be pushing FW with apparently no consideration for any of the other types of racing board seems to show that he is extremely biased and has no place at the head of our sport.

Unregistered
25th February 2008, 01:01 PM
"Let's start communicating and get our act together in all Racing classes from 2009 onwards."

It woujld be great is we started communicating. Let's start bty making sure the IWA asks all racing sailors what classes they want to represent the sport. The IWA should not just assume we want FW in for 2012

Unregistered
25th February 2008, 08:16 PM
Astonishing that anybody would even be "thinking about" changing the board.
Parts of the world are still grappling with budgets to buy the RSX and develop youngsters for 2012.
Leave well alone.

Unregistered
25th February 2008, 11:46 PM
As usual the facts are getting distorted.
The Formula Class AGM voted to support a proposal to change the olympic windsurfing equipment for 2012. Bruno is only moving this decision forward.
The IWA is not proposing a change ; neither is it proposing to accept the status quo.
The RSX Class is not a member of IWA.
To be part of the "olympic" game you do not need to invest in equipment - you invest in sailors .!
The majority of the current Olympic racers also raced Mistral- equipment is not priority.
To compete in OG you renew equipment (at least )once a year - in reality , you invest in new equipment much more often to be "competitive".
Changing your RSX equipment to FW equipment post 2008 OG is no big deal !

Ken
26th February 2008, 04:05 AM
The RSX and the the older Mistral class haven't done much to build competitive windsurfing world wide. The Olympic boards have never been very enticing for the masses and pretty much remain specialized boards for a limited number of racers that want to be able to race in light wind conditions.

This makes some sense with the Olympics since you have a very small window of time once every four years and need to race regardless of the winds.

On the other hand, if Formula was the Olympic class board, I think there would be a huge increase in the number of Formula sailors world wide compared to the impact that the RSX, Mistral & Lechner have had.

Modifying the Formula class for the Olympics with fin choices up to 80cm may help push the planing threshold down to 5 knots for a 70-75kg sailor on a 12 meter sail.

It seems to me that Formula deserves a shot at being the Olympic board. The risk is not getting in enough races at the games to hand out medals if the wind doesn't show up.

On the other hand, maybe the Olympic Formula sailors will have to practice slogging around a course. I have done it several times and it takes skill to be the fastest. Exciting - no, but neither is an RSX in 3 knots.

James
26th February 2008, 04:38 AM
Hmm. I thought Bruno De Wannemaeker's post was pretty well-reasoned, so I'm suprised by the strong negative response he got in post #4. I guess it's tough to please everyone.

Also, I agree with Post #7. Changing the equipment really wouldn't impose much extra cost, because the Olympic riders have to get new hulls and sails all the time as it is.

-Here's a concern I have, though: Would one-design-formula exacerbate the problem of random minor variations in manufacturing having big effects on performance, i.e. having to buy 10 "identical" fins to find one good one? Or is that no less problematic with longboard and hybrid equipment?

-Here's another thing: I heard from an RS:X rider who said the Bic Hybrid was a lot nicer than the RS:X both in the breeze and in daggerboard mode. Since that's already an existing class I wonder if they'll vy for 2012 Olympic status. Same thing with the Kona class; everyone seems to love sailing the Kona, including me, and they make it competitive for different weight people with their weight class / sail size rules.

However it turns out, I think the board selection process will be exciting to watch. It was fun to see all the weird designs they tested before picking the RSX. :) I wonder if Starboard is just going to enter a formula / apollo design, or if they will also enter a full-length longboard.

-James
http://www.jimbodouglass.blogspot.com

Unregistered
26th February 2008, 04:52 AM
Hang on
If there was to be a change, are we talking about changing the board or changing the whole kit?
Only the board needs to be changed.
I think the mens rig is OK and the womens rig is good. Don't change these.

The board is very slow until it planes and when it starts planning it points very low. Its embrassing around the other olympic classes. Now that the tornado is gone we should be the premier class in terms of speed.

A better fin and a smaller centreboard is the first change.
These two changes are minor and would make planning upwind occur sooner to be more formula like.

The next change would be to make the board lighter.

but if this happens everyone will buy a new board so the shape should changed aswell, so the tail should be widen to support a more powerful fin.

I would support I hull, fin and centreboard change.

Another change is the mast track could be shorter, I rarely use the first 3 positions but I'm not sure if the women use these positions.

Unregistered
26th February 2008, 04:59 AM
Starting all over again with a design competion is too disruptive. That process is too long.

And there was panic in 2005, 2006 as too when how the gear got out.

Unregistered
26th February 2008, 05:08 AM
Yeah it needs to a existing class or better still small changes to the existing class

and the changes could be staggered

AUGUST 2008
offer a the choice of a powerful fin and then

FEBRUARY 2009
phase out old fin and offer new centerboard

AUGUST 2009
phase out old centreboard introduce mark 2 hull

now there is no production crisis
and the consumer can staggered their costs

Unregistered
26th February 2008, 06:08 AM
In my opinion, for Olympic racing, its hard to beat a good longboard. The Mistral One design package is outdated for sure. But the performance of the latest raceboards such as the Exocet Warp-X and Starboards Phantom matched with a modern 2 or 3 cam 9.5 sail over the 0-30k wind range is hard to beat. These boards are tactical, fast and plane up in surprisingly little wind(not far behind a formula)
Most of all they have a real fun factor

James
26th February 2008, 06:52 AM
I notice a lot of competitors in the raceboard worlds used the RSX rig and usually beat the RSX, even though it was windy enough for the RSX to plane.

So maybe the rig could be preserved but the board changed to a longboard, as suggested by Poster #13.

Personally, I would have a tough time holding down a 9.5 on a longboard in 25 knots, but it might be fun for an Olympic athlete.

Unregistered
26th February 2008, 12:23 PM
Actually James
I like the length of the RSX as it fits inside the TOYOTA Hiace

even though its the length of the mistral which makes it so quick when displacing

Unregistered
26th February 2008, 12:34 PM
ah the good old days of mistral sailing
it was great
extremely physical - heaps of pumping required - true athletes
super fast downwind in very strong wind with the narrow tail and small fin

but

the rsx is more technical with regards to tuning and the added complexity of choosing when to plane upwind which the mistral didn't have.

anyway thats not what this tread is about

Ken
27th February 2008, 04:00 AM
My earlier comments, justifying why formula should be considered for the Olympic board demonstrated my limited knowledge about Olympic class sailing.

I assume that for the RSX class, there is only on sail and one fin allowed. That certainly limits the wind range for the board and would not make a 12 m sail a good choice for light wind since it wouldn't work in 20 knots for most racers. Same issue with an 80cm fin.

This begs the question - why not two sails and two fins? Other sailing classes have multiple sails (main, jib, spinnaker) and they can choose to use one, two or three depending on the wind speed and point of sail. I guess they can also reef the main sail in strong winds, which in effect is like rigging a smaller sail. Why not give the windsurfers the same option?

Easier said than done - politics, etc.

Just some thoughts.

C249
27th February 2008, 06:19 AM
The other Olympic classes can get around the course with the sails they have on board, without reefing or changing. They don't have to go back to the beach to change sails as the wind changes. I think most only allow one set of sails to be used each regatta, just like the RSX does.

You'll never find a 470 or Tornado, for example, racing under mainsail alone, and I've never seen them go downwind without a spinnaker up unless something has gone very wrong. A 49er is actually extremely difficult to get downwind in a breeze without a spinnaker up so they don't have much of a choice. Not a single Olympic class has changed to smaller sails in strong winds since about 1965.

Changing sails IS easier said than done, and it's not politics. Courses are normally set well offshore, away from the land effects to allow fairer racing. Race committees are under pressure to get races completed. Event sites are often crowded.

To stop the racing while the windsurfers decide to go in and change sails can mean holding up the racing for the vast majority of the sailors (those on boats) and then a huge muddle on shore. I've hit the beach on an Olympic class regatta on a board at the same time as 70 or so Lasers wanted to get up the ramp; getting up onto the beach, finding space to change sails and then going against the flow would have been very hard.

And what does the RC do when conditions change? If sailor X has a physique and skills that allow him or her to use a big sail across all conditions, why should they have to sit and wait because person Y, say a lightweight light-air sailor who cannot handle a big sail in big winds, goes in to change gear?

If the wind has gone from 13 knots to a perfect 20 knots, does the RC wait until the last lightweights struggle across the finish line in a heat, then allow those sailors to struggle back to the beach, then wait while they re-rig, then wait for the last one to get back out to the start? Or do sailors just gamble that they will be able to go back in and change rigs before the next start? Won't the sailors with a RIB and pit crew have a huge advantage?

Olympic classes have been pretty popular at times - I can remember in Division 2 days going from the worlds of the most popular class of the time (basically F42 Raceboard/slalom) to a Div 2 worlds and being amazed at how big and professional the Olympic class worlds were. Getting Olympic status can really hurt the numbers of a class, but the Olympic class worlds in boards are normally bigger than the FW worlds in terms of entrants and nations.

I think if you check the actual numbers around the world, you'll find that those who want to race in light winds are NOT limited in numbers, compared to FW. In many major sailing countries, the "light wind" boards are at least as popular. This isn't attacking FW, just pointing out that it doesn't seem to be the vast majority of racers as sometimes implied.

Ken
27th February 2008, 08:30 PM
C249,

Thanks for the lesson in Olympic class sailing. Valid points and since I have never been on the beach at an Olympics, it's hard to imagine how it all works. I can see why windsurfing would not get special treatment.

Actually, I am not opposed to longboards being the Olympic class board. I would prefer it to the RSX and think that a longboard would do more to promote windsurfing and racing throughout the world than the RSX. The concept of the RSX is good, but from what I have read and seen, I don't think it does what everyone really hoped for.

I raced longboards for 19 years before moving to Formula. The down side of the longboard for me was that I only got on it to race. Free sailing wasn't much fun. Then when Formula came along, I now spend 70% of my free sailing time on the Formula board because it is so much fun if I have at least 10 knots of wind.

Olympic class worlds will always bring in a good number of racers because the opportunity to race together is pretty limited. I would guess that 25% or more of the RSX owners world wide probably go to the worlds, since so many are Olympic hopefuls. At the formula worlds, probably 98% of the Formula sailors don't go because they have plenty of local racing opportunities and stand nothing to gain by traveling around the world.

All of this is speculation and I have no facts to support my comments, just my estimation of how it probably plays out. I just like the debate.

Unregistered
28th February 2008, 05:11 AM
-Here's another thing: I heard from an RS:X rider who said the Bic Hybrid was a lot nicer than the RS:X both in the breeze and in daggerboard mode. Since that's already an existing class I wonder if they'll vy for 2012 Olympic status.
http://www.jimbodouglass.blogspot.com

I'd like to hear a bit more about that Bic. I've noticed it did well racing in France against all other hybrids, despite lower tech construction than the RSX. There again it seems anything picked for Olympic use has to be reinforced for serious pumping use (abuse?) so would end up too porky for the rest of us. Whcih probably also explains why although the RSX rig seem to be good aerodynamically it's sure heavy. Many 10.5's feel lighter.

Unregistered
28th February 2008, 05:36 AM
Ken
Many peoples perception of longboards come maybe like yourself, from many years ago with the good old 7.5 rig.
I agree that the sailing was not very exciting in less that 10k and a formula is above 10k.
But as I suggested, with todayís modern raceboards and suitable 9.5 or even bigger rigs, itís a whole different experience.
Even in sub-planning conditions these boards are fun. In 4 or 5 knots you can be hooked in, railed up, with board speeds above 10knots easily achieved.
They plane a bit later than formula boards, but often earlier than big slalom boards.

Unregistered
28th February 2008, 11:43 AM
I'd like to hear a bit more about that Bic. I've noticed it did well racing in France against all other hybrids, despite lower tech construction than the RSX. There again it seems anything picked for Olympic use has to be reinforced for serious pumping use (abuse?) so would end up too porky for the rest of us. Whcih probably also explains why although the RSX rig seem to be good aerodynamically it's sure heavy. Many 10.5's feel lighter.

I too am looking at getting back into longboard sailing locally after years away from that aspect of windsurfing., but i am not sure where to throw my money and i dont really want to throw it at just anything.
I've looked at the bic , seems pretty low tech . but impressive that the thing can perform if that can believed . The RSX is getting some weird reviews, maybe weird is the wrong word how bout bad reviews . Could have bought one used, whole kit for 1500 uSD but owuld i ahve to hollow the board outr line it with carbon and fuill it with hydrogen for it to be competitive??
I gave my Mistral Comp SST away years back and traded it in for an early formula., love my formula, but they have changed alot since the 1st boards , and from a pocket book perspective i am glad i dont follow every trend id have bought 4 hulls to remain current i am sure.
the thing that bugs me is last years "hot" longboard is supplanted by this years latest greatest.
For example last years phantom longboard is shorter and less volume then either version this year. I found a 2007 used BUT for a big guy like me if i have last years everything else being equal, and race aginast this years version ( whihc a guy in my area is saying he will be buying ) can i compete?
Computers seem to be a better buy obsolescece wise!!
i take some consolation from this website http://www.lbws.com.au/lb07/
it seems old mistral equipe IIs can keep up with the lastest f-2 and starboard longboards. Howver there are some variables that are not mentioned. ie: wind strength , and weights of sailors of each set of kit.

Anyone have an old equipe 2 ??
shredulato

Unregistered
28th February 2008, 01:23 PM
The Starboard 380 is a little unknown at the moment. It did win the worlds, but some mods were needed from what i heard and will it be re-launched soon.
The Exocet Warp X 380 is available and unchanged, it's a real pleasure to sail this board, has a ton of volume and good for heavy weights. It also comes with 2 dagger's and the tail can be detached for shorter board speed in strong winds. It's a serious choice.

The old Equipe and Fanatic cats can still be competitive in the right conditions, but the equipe is not so good for heavyweights in light wind and the Cat would be limited by old style fins.

Screamer
28th February 2008, 05:59 PM
They plane a bit later than formula boards, but often earlier than big slalom boards.

This is backed by some evidence or a speculation? I doubt they can plane earlier with less width and double the weight of a slalom.

Unregistered
28th February 2008, 07:35 PM
Evidence. You are speculating

C249
29th February 2008, 03:20 AM
This is backed by some evidence or a speculation? I doubt they can plane earlier with less width and double the weight of a slalom.

If we're talking speculation (and it seems we are) then we have to accoount for the fact that
the longboard has a much faster speed in displacement mode. That allows it to go faster in light winds, and planing lift increases by the square of the speed so low-end speed is important.

And the weight of the sailor AND GEAR (not just board weight) is vital, and the extra 8kg or so of a longboard is less important when viewed against the 90kg or so of the slalom board + sailor unit.

So since the longboard is faster in displacement mode, the lift increased by the square, and the width and weight are only slightly greater, that may well be more important than weight and width. Personally, I feel a longboard planes a lot earlier (and this seems to be confirmed every time I sail one against slalom boards in marginal conditions) but since there's not a dramatic difference between fast displacement, semi planing and planing, it may not look dramatic from the outside.

This isn't attacking slalom boards, which are great to sail.

Unregistered
29th February 2008, 05:44 AM
NP are changing the board,I dont know for better or worst
the last four year cycle changes where made to the rig.
now its the boards turn

the 49er is changing aswell it is getting a full carbon mast and new mainsail

its a pity the finn and 470 didn't constantly evolve instead they are like opening time capsules. Ha Ha

Unregistered
29th February 2008, 08:12 AM
by the square of the speed so low-end speed is important.

And the weight of the sailor AND GEAR (not just board weight) is vital, and the extra 8kg or so of a longboard is less important when viewed against the 90kg or so of the slalom board + sailor unit.
.one of the main points weigh all upkit and sailor is key.
that being said ., years ago me and a friend discussed a strategy to lighten optimise our kits ( him an Equipe myself a Comp SST) after being regularly horizoned/ killed by the local 90 lbs weakling on light airs races.
After some brainstomring and checkin the bank account or lack thereof, we put our heads together and realized instead of lighter equipment at premium prices, it was better for us to just lose weight.
plain and simple.
So we went on low carb diets: stayed off the nachos and beer, switched to tuna salad and vodka tonic and lime,.
One big problem ,which any beer drinker funds out when they try hard liquor. Beer drinkers are used to consuming "volume". being a Canadian and used to drinking large volume of beer the vodka route turned us into annialated drunks.
We lost weight but lost our ability to sail.

so the best laid plans of mice and men or rather thirsty Canadians had gone awry.

Unregistered
29th February 2008, 09:25 AM
The RSX and the the older Mistral class haven't done much to build competitive windsurfing world wide. The Olympic boards have never been very enticing for the masses and pretty much remain specialized boards for a limited number of racers that want to be able to race in light wind conditions.

Ken,

Correct - throw away the RSX.....but

The only boards that kept the numbers up in windsurfing world-wide were the original Windsurfer and then the Mistral OD.

You are in dream land.

I look forward to the Beijing pumping competition, where your pumping technique will make you win.

Are we windsurfing or pumping. Just check the annual wind averages at Beijing.

Senor steveromagnino
29th February 2008, 04:19 PM
NP are changing the board,I dont know for better or worst
the 49er is changing aswell it is getting a full carbon mast and new mainsail

its a pity the finn and 470 didn't constantly evolve instead they are like opening time capsules. Ha Ha

49er is a skiffy type boat, so would benefit from improved technology; plus of course the earlier versions were prone to falling to bits.

On the other hand, the Finn is the only heavyweight sailor's option, and while it has also included fancier sails, lighter masts and so on, the reality is the hull shape is old school heavyweight.

They are a fantastic class representing most of what the olympics is about; for people wanting speed there are 49ers and boards and there used to be the tornado. Surely the olympics is not only about the latest and greatest...otherwise we'd have:
- musto skiff big man boat
- moth foiler medium size man boat
- 49er or better still an R or 12 2 man boat
- tornado or F18 cat
- Shaw 650 with wires or similar keelboat/sportboat
- various windsurfing appliances

I don't see this is particularly close to what the olympics should be about. Long live the finn. Unlike the Yngling it is a beast of boat that I am not man enough to sail.

Windsurfing is somewhat unique in that the gear doesn't last more than a few years anyway, sometimes less than a year, and is relatively cheap. So if any class should go through updates, then windsurfing is probably it. Race ready tornado giong around the world....forget about it, you could run 2 or 3 board campaigns for the cost of the container!

Unregistered
1st March 2008, 04:16 AM
Hi Senor Steveromagnino,
What are the chances of a finn lover cruising the starboard forum.

only trophy hunters sail the fin

and now that the english guy who is unbeatable is sailing the class no one else will sailing the finn
the class is officially dead

Screamer
1st March 2008, 08:17 AM
If we're talking speculation (and it seems we are) then we have to accoount for the fact that
the longboard has a much faster speed in displacement mode. That allows it to go faster in light winds, and planing lift increases by the square of the speed so low-end speed is important.

And the weight of the sailor AND GEAR (not just board weight) is vital, and the extra 8kg or so of a longboard is less important when viewed against the 90kg or so of the slalom board + sailor unit.

So since the longboard is faster in displacement mode, the lift increased by the square, and the width and weight are only slightly greater, that may well be more important than weight and width. Personally, I feel a longboard planes a lot earlier (and this seems to be confirmed every time I sail one against slalom boards in marginal conditions) but since there's not a dramatic difference between fast displacement, semi planing and planing, it may not look dramatic from the outside.

This isn't attacking slalom boards, which are great to sail.

I agree that a longboard has huge advantage of a much greater non-planing speed, and smoother transition to a full plane. I think this is often overlooked when discussing early planing.

However, I don't agree that board weight alone is "less important" when total weight is taken into consideration. I'm pretty sure 8kg or so is vital even if the whole "package" is 100kg.

My experience is this: marginal, flukey on/off wind - a longboard wins every time.
Marginal, but STEADY - say 10-12 knots - wide slalom wins except on extreme upwind course.(please note, when I say "win" I refer to early planing/speed).

Still, no hard data here, and for some sailors displacement speed and comfort will get them going earlier/easier, while for others a different technique and shortboard feel will play an important part.

C 249
1st March 2008, 04:52 PM
I think you're dead right, Screamer, when you point out how important the gusts and lulls are.

Whether 8kg is worth "X" width or "Y" length is something it would take one hell of a lot of testing to find out, and in the end it would depend on the wind strength, sailor, gust/lull structure etc like you say.

I used to love slalom racing and did it to world title level, but never liked it in marginal stuff, when I preferred a powered-up longboard. Some other guys love getting onto short boards as early as possible. As you say, it's a personal thing and to each, their own.

Unregistered; in places like Germany, Holland and (to a lesser extent) the USA, Finns are quite popular. The German Finn association has half as many members as the entire German windsurfing association. Are you telling us that all those old guys sailing Masters divisions in Finns are trophy hunters? With 550 members in Germany and Holland alone (compare that to most windsurfer racing classes) there's no way the class is dead (and I'm not even a Finn fan, but truth demands that we look at reality rather than pretending we know it all).

Interestingly, one of the Finn's big rivals is the O-Jolle, which is like an even heavier and older Finn which is still very popular despite getting very little publicity. These guys aren't trophy hunters and their boats are not dinosaurs - in fact they are much more popular than Musto Skiffs or foiler Moths.

Unregistered
3rd March 2008, 07:23 AM
everything is more popular than the moth
at 20,000AUD and extremely difficult to sail would you buy one?
no

anyway
does
anyone
have
any real info
on the changes to the rsx board??

Ken
4th March 2008, 01:39 AM
Unregistered,

I stand corrected regarding the Mistral OD not doing much to promote windsurfing world wide. It did and had a pretty long run. Its strength was in the early years when longboards were still big, but faded off considerably even when it was still the Olympic board.

When I raced longboards (last one was the Equipe II XR), I raced open class and rarely used a 7.5 unless it was blowing over 20 knots. My largest sail at time 10.6 Neil Pryde. I stayed pretty competitive with the course / slalom race boards as they evolved over the years, but when the Formula boards came out, the long board was toast, so to keep up with everyone else, I moved to Formula.