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mart
13th April 2008, 04:18 AM
i sail mostly at sea and my sail quiver are 3.7 , 4.5 , and 5.3 severne s1 2008. my weight is 69kg. i own a acid wood 68 2007 and love it, it sails great. i want something a little bit bigger next to it to sail my 5.3. i have tried a 2008 evo wood 75 (borrowd from the shop) and i dont like it at all, i planes up earlier when i am on my acid 68 and the evo feels very heavy and big under my feet. it must be my surfstyle that doesnt work with this board because the evo is always tested very good in every magazine end forums. my question now is, does i order a acid wood 80 2008 or will it be better to order a kombat wood 79 2008?

mart
13th April 2008, 04:45 AM
and sometimes i also sail on a lake as well. witch of the two boards does planes up earlier? witch one does feel lighter at the feet? witch one has a higher topspeed (with a 5.3 in 16 to 22 knots)? and witch one sails better upwind? and when i am sailing with my 4.5 sail witch one has the better highwind control? hope someone can help me with these questions. thanks and surf's up.

Jean-Marc
13th April 2008, 06:43 AM
Mart,

Kombat if freeride > wave sailing
Acid if wave > freeride sailing

I have Acid 62 with 3.3 to 5.4 sails (wind range 20-40+ knots) and Kombat 86 with 5.4 to 6.9 sails (12-25+ knots). I weight 65 kg; dead onshore conditions on a lake most of the time, so great upwind ability is key feature.

Cheers !

JM

PS: Kombat 79 : max sail size for me is a 6.2 m2.

mart
13th April 2008, 03:59 PM
i am looking for a 80 liter board so anything bigger does not fit the picture. i am going to use this board mostly at sea or a river with big chop(75% of the time i sail at sea). before i sail starboard i always sailed fanatic boards and they are compared with starboard super light at your feet. witch one does feel the lightest at your feet , the acid wood 80 2008 or the kombat wood 79 2008? i must also so that i am also sailing my acid 68 wood 2007 with my 5.3 sail and thats no problem at all , but when the wind is not so strong i am needing something a little bit bigger. but witch one is the question, the acid or the kombat?

Screamer
13th April 2008, 07:29 PM
"witch of the two boards does planes up earlier?"
Kombat

"witch one sails better upwind?"
Kombat

"when i am sailing with my 4.5 sail witch one has the better highwind control?"
Acid

You have to decide what is more important: a bit earlier planing/"light" wind performance or high wind control.
Since you already use Acid68, my guess is that you will gain more range overall with the Kombat.

Time for Ola to jump in.

Screamer
13th April 2008, 07:46 PM
Maybe OT a bit:

Jean-Marc
I've noticed you often use sails bigger than recommended on various boars (K86+6.9; K79+6.2; hyper+10; etc). I know you're light and I have no reason to doubt your skill, but maybe someone may get the (wrong) impression these are the best match. People need to know their abilities, their conditions and intended use before they venture outside ideal gear combos.
No offence please ;-) I've made a lot of mistakes before I learned what works.

mart
13th April 2008, 10:21 PM
thanks for your reply screamer, but witch one would feel lighter at the feet? maybe ola has a few comments on this topic. thanks guys.

mike
13th April 2008, 11:18 PM
I have the '06 Kombat 96L & '07 Pure Acid 80L. They both have a similar feel when each is powered up in their own ideal wind range. The Pure Acid was added to my quiver after the Kombat. I was advised to go with the Pure Acid because of it's similar feel to the Kombat (which I like) and because it has the best high wind control. A main difference is the wider tail of the Kombat which makes it generally feel lighter & plane easier but becomes bouncy if overpowered on the smaller end of the sail range for the board. Given that you already have a smaller Acid, it sounds like the Kombat 79 would give you the lighter feel in lighter winds (as suggested above). Interesting to see what Ola says as apprarently the Kombat has changed in '08.

davide
14th April 2008, 12:21 AM
i am looking for a 80 liter board so anything bigger does not fit the picture. i am going to use this board mostly at sea or a river with big chop(75% of the time i sail at sea). before i sail starboard i always sailed fanatic boards and they are compared with starboard super light at your feet. witch one does feel the lightest at your feet , the acid wood 80 2008 or the kombat wood 79 2008? i must also so that i am also sailing my acid 68 wood 2007 with my 5.3 sail and thats no problem at all , but when the wind is not so strong i am needing something a little bit bigger. but witch one is the question, the acid or the kombat?
Hi Mart,

If I were you I would made the choice simple: base it on width, forget volumes (up to a point) since the numbers are not accurate. So: Acid 80 "better" then Kombat 79 (56 vs 57, if I remember numbers correctly), and give some very good consideration to an Angulo Chango 82 2008 which is 55. Even the Acid 74 at 54.5 might make sense paired with the Acid 68.

I am your same weight and last year I reorganized my high wind (3.7-5.0) quiver. I started with an Acid 74. This turned out to be a very nice board but way too big to have fun, for my weight, in 4.2 and below choppy/tidal conditions. So I got an Angulo Chango 65 (51 cm wide) that works beautifully in those conditions, and sails easily up to 5.0. The Chango is a sinker (and so probably is the Acid 68) but the Acid 54.5 sort of floats me with some attention, gets going very early and I can grab it when the wind drops.

Ola_H
14th April 2008, 06:02 AM
Mart: K79 and PA 80 are rarther similar boards. One can say that the K79 has a bigger range when it comes to straight line riding, but the PA 80 has a bigger range when it comes to riding speed once one a wave. In other words, as mentioned in the thread already, the K79 may get going a bit earlier (and go better upwind when its really light) and it looses out only tad in the high wind department. But the wider tail will limit its speed range when turning on a wave without really adding that much in the slow speed wave riding department.

So, my guess is that you will be better off with the PA80. It will be more all round for the application you describe. But that said, you allready have a board in the PA68 that _almost_ covers all conditions, right? So if you see the biger boards as a real speciality board for light wind and if you primarily get crappy waves when you have light wind, that yes, the K79 will be slight bit more effective (and the 08 Kombat construction is also a fair bit lighter than PA80).

So as always, no easy choices. I'm your weight and have K79 which think is super nice. But if were in your clothes I would still pick the PA80.

Jean-Marc
14th April 2008, 06:03 AM
Screamer,

If I remember correctly, you weight 20-25 kg more than me. Whats work for a light weight does not work for a heavy weight in the low wind range for a given board. For a lightweight, you might go beyond the recommended max sail size (which is for 75-80 kg average rider weight). For a heavy weight, you must choose a smaller sail than max recommended. For you, a K86 + 6.9 combo will not work (way less efficiency than for me). To further complicate matters, some board and big sail combo works better than other.
Looks like Mart is highly skilled and light weighted as myself, so what I'm using might give him some clues about what's possible to help him. Looks like Mart doesn't want to go bigger than 80 L and 5.3 sail at all. Fair enough, I'll pass on that.

BTW, I'm using K86+6.9 90% of her sailing time; same about HS105 and my largest sail. Past experience taught me too big a board is just useless ballast for my lightweight. Went from custom HiTech 80 L wave board ( Acid 80) to Acid 62 with 5.4 sail. Went from Carve111 to Kombat 95 to Kombat 86 with 6.9 sail. Went from big raceboard to HS105 with my largest sail. Thinking outside the box is what makes this sport so interesting. For a medium to heavy weight, this is of course another story...

Cheers !

JM

steveC
14th April 2008, 08:07 AM
Hi JM,

You raise some interesting points in your last post. I have to agree that my requirements at 70kg can be a whole different ballgame for the notably heavier sailor. I'm glad that you highlighted some things here, since lighter sailors might find different synergies, especially playing with creative fin sizing.

As an aside, I'm still waiting for delivery news on the Serenity I ordered. I have to admit, I'm getting a bit itchy about things. I really hope that Starboard can deliver to Trident, the NA distributor. I still remain optimistic at this time.

Screamer
14th April 2008, 11:17 PM
JM

Of course I know a lot about your setup by now (all these years on the forum ;-)
It's just that I've seen sailors make choices based on someone else's experience that obviously doesn't apply to them. Not your fault of course.

I basically agree with you, but here is what I've read somewhere on Boards' forum (I think): a given board always have maximum sail it can carry, more or less REGARDLESS of a sailor weight. I don't agree, but it would be an interesting discussion.

Ola_H
15th April 2008, 12:45 AM
Boards mag are wrong in the article you are refering to. Th reasoning was based on a very interesting test (a the whol range of Fanatic Goya boards at the time) but unfortunately the weight range of the testers was very narrow. I would say that while the "sailor weight factor" is not that large, it surely exists. In many cases individual (preferance, techique, etc) may be more important but nevertheless sailor weigh also matter.

As guess would be that 10 kg maybe means something like 0.3m2 in added sail carrying capability for a (wave) board.

Jean-Marc
15th April 2008, 01:30 AM
Mart,

Sorry to seriously hijack your post off topic...

Screamer,

Agree it's very difficult to assess the sailing skills of somebody you've never met in real life. However, some queries are obvious, other are not. It's been fairly obvious with Mart.

WRT the Boards mag issue you've raised, I don't know whether a universal board+fin+sail magic formula works for all (I doubt it) but some clear cut past experiences are still vivid in my mind. Here are some of them below:

1) Low wind range is a pretty complex issue : general practice has shown that the more you weight, the larger the board should be at OFO because with a greater leverage over a big fin, one can use a bigger sail.

Drag racing some 85-105 kg buddies on their Formula + 70 cm fin + 10.5-12.5 sail combo has shown me I'm on par with my HS105 + 54 cm fin + RX2 10.6 sail as expected (with the exception of a few degree upwind/downwind that I had to give up to the formula, no surprise here).
Quite unexpected, however, was drag racing a 65 kg buddy on his F158 + 70 cm fin + RS5 9.8 sail : I was planing earlier than him. For my light weight, this is very clear that more width than necessary is useless with a big sail.

For years, I've found out that an ART TNT6 8.2 or NP RS2 8.2 sail provided me the same planing as of 10 knots wind, no matter how wide the board was for me (Ace 309x70 cm x 170 L, AHD DR 72/74/78/GT75/GT85/DF95), HS105). Clear diminishing returns were obtained with Carve 111 + 40 cm racing fin + 8.2 sail: more wind was required, e.g., 11 knots. Why ? The tail is not powerfull enough to transmit all the low power of the racing sail with a high enough efficiency/yield. Shape was key.

2) The same board + fin + sail combo is used in different wind force range between a light weight and a heavy weight. Carve111 + stock freeride 32 cm fin + NP Jet 6.9 sail : I need 12 knots to start and sustain the planing, I'm well powered-up in 15 knots and well overpowered in 18 knots (with increasing downhaul & outhaul). For a 95 kg pal using the same setup, he needs 15 knots to plane, he's happy in 18 and still blasting full speed in 20+ knots wind while I'm rigging my 5.4 sail. Would a fin bigger than 32 cm be better to increase his low wind range? Most likely, yes. Would a bigger sail have been better ? Marginally yes, but most probably, no. From that above, I surmise that a rider need 1 knots higher wind than me for each 10 kg more body weight.

3) Extrapolation to a different type of gear is difficult because there are quite a number of different variables to take into account. Shape details are key. Carve111 + stock freeride 32 cm fin + NP Jet 6.9 sail : planing as of 12 knots for me. Kombat 95 + Select Freeride 31 cm fin + Jet 6.9 sail : more difficult to get planing as of 12 knots for me, felt deceptively sluggish. Kombat 86 + stock freeride 30 cm fin + same 6.9 Jet sail : great, as good as Carve111. Why ? Scoop-rocker line was key.

So, in sum, this is a very complex issue and I'm not surprised at all why a simple matrix output showing the best combo for a given rider weight cannot be written up in a 2-D Excell format : too many variables to account for.

Cheers !

JM

Screamer
15th April 2008, 01:43 AM
Mart
I apologize also for this hijacking.... Hope you've got answers you were looking for.

Ola & JM
I've performed similar "tests" with lightweight buddies, and came to similar conclusions (i.e. weight does matter wrt efficient sail carrying).

Bye

Jean-Marc
15th April 2008, 01:58 AM
A guess would be that 10 kg maybe means something like 0.3m2 in added sail carrying capability for a (wave) board.

That's an interesting guess. In 35-45 knots winds, I was on Acid 62 + 3.3 sail. Other 80 kg riders were on 75 L wave board with 3.6 - 3.7 sails while a 95+ kg rider was on a 4.2 sail that same day.

However, in light wind, that's a different story. I was drag racing a 105 kg pal in 12-18 knots wind and 0.5 m high swell. I was on K86 + stock freeride 32 cm fin + 6.9 sail but he was on Carve 162 + stock freeride 52 cm fin + freerace 9.5 sail. Same planing threshold between us and same speed. That's a 2.6 m2 sail differential for 40 kg, or 0.65 m2 for 10 kg body weight.

The above figures are for freeriding blasting on a lake. For true wavesailing at sea, this is another story because the thrust moving the board forward is essentially provided by the wave energy (DTL riding) and not so much by the wind, so, too big a sail is a pain during transition. Again, multiple variables at play producing different results. Modelling windsurfing must be a neat challenge for a mathematician I'm sure...

Cheers !

JM

Ola_H
15th April 2008, 03:44 AM
Some interesting data (not gonna try to make model for reasons you already mentioned...).

Regarding the K86/C162 example, I think it is also a matter of sailor technique and also that a case of diminishing returns what going or bigger and bigger gear. I would say if get increasingy more difficult to make perfect use of the gear the bigger it gets. But that's of course part of the game.

With my "0.3m2/10kg" I was however more refering to how much more sail a 10 kg lighter rider could put onto a given board (ie not how much more sail a 10kg heavier rider would need to plane).

I agree on that it generally does not help to be on a bigger board than nessecary.