View Full Version : GO or Carve? From 129 to 170?
17th August 2006, 09:17 PM
I'm going to make my first StarBoard purchase. After reading a lot of threads in the forum and talking to some surfers around me I still can't make a decision.
Now I have in mind the range to make a choice from: GO 129, 133, 155, 170 and Carve 133, 144, 162 and need your advice badly!
I'm 77 kg =170 lbs progressive beginner, sailing the old style PVC long board with the centerboard for 2 years. Was not easy stuff for the beginner but I managed it. Now I realize that my board limit my days on the water. Since in the area I live most of the days are with light and moderate wind, my board not so fun in the light days and far from planing in the rest of the days.
My wish is to maximize the number of days on the water with the fun. To have a board which is fun to cruise in the light days (2 Bft), will plane early (3 Bft) and still possible to joint pro-surfers in the strong wind (4-5 Bft)
I understand that GO 129 and Carve 133 will be perfect for the stronger wind and GO 170 and Carve 162 will start to plane earlier. But I need to choose one now (for the beginning :-) !
The question is how fun will be to cruise GO 129 and Carve 133 in the light and moderate wind and if it possible to have good ride on GO 170 and Carve 162 in the strong wind (4-5 Bft)?
Since I don't know the "wind thresholds" for the mentioned boards, I have no idea - will I compromise something? Or may be one board from the mentioned range can take all those missions?
The idea for *Board: May be it is possible to create the simple program, where you input initial data like:
Weight = 77kg
Level = progressive
Target Wind = 2 Bft - 30%; 3 Bft - 30%; 4 Bft - 20%; 5 Bft - the Dream to catch this wind
Mission = adrenalin/to have fun/don't sit on the beach
AND.., after computing - the recommendation is?- GO170... or Carve 133... ?
Since it is not available now, please, be so kind to help me with the choice, like you did many times before
18th August 2006, 02:07 PM
At your weight it is really up to how big sails you are going to use. If you are not going to go above 8.5 m2 then the Carve 133 would be the best bet.
It has sufficient float for you, and will still be manageable in somewhat stronger winds as well. I do think it will be more versatile. In light, non-planning winds, there is really no difference between the Carve and the Go.
18th August 2006, 03:22 PM
Does that mean that 8.5m2 sail will be the main sail for the most of the days (2-4 Bft)?
Or for stronger wind (from 4 Bft) will need to have something like 6m2?
OK, if there is no difference in light wind between Carve and GO and 133 or 129 will be quite ok (for my 77kg) for non-planing cruising and probably no big difference with cruising on 162 or 170 l board?
The main queastion is how early 170 vs. 129 starts planing?
and what will be the high wind limit (usually accompanied by waves and chop) for the 129 vs. 170 board?
18th August 2006, 10:40 PM
any experienced surfer could answer my simple eternal boring question? ;)
19th August 2006, 03:13 PM
It may be simple and boring but it's actually a complex answer required.
For Bft 2, the reality is that even full pro racers on fully tuned maxed out sails on Formula gear won't plane - and the only fun cruising solutions - especially with more practical sails - will be centreboard type boards. (of course we've some rather special solutions in that wind range too, but this doesn't seem to be what you had in mind..)
Bft 3 the FW guys start to get going, but that is still the normal threshold for heavier and less efficient boards such as larger GO's. I don't think many experienced riders would really consider the C133 below 10 kts (which make it almost a Bft4 and above ride, especially if the rider is not super skilled at planing in marginal conditions and/or the wind at that speed is less than rock solid...)
From Bft 4 onwards then the choice is quite easy , as just about any of your options fit the bill and would work well : choice would come down to other factors such as (intended) ride style (moves vs crooze), budget, durability (which is often a real issue with advancing riders) vs weight (which relates to durability but also early planing performance etc) , resale (if you decide to take an intermediate board now with a view to having a more suitable board short term and then upgrade to a more advanced one later - this is actually a pretty good attribute of the GO, great resale) and so on..
So I'm not sure if this is the news or answer you really wanted to see.
But hopefully it gives you a little more to consdier, and if you'd like more info or discussion, please let us know. The best guy is Roger, it's totally his thing ~ and he's a wealth of practical knowledge and experience of the boards in these conditions.
(the rest of you will all have a laugh about me writing about Bft2
... but let me tell you that Serenity is fun - even in BftONE!) B)
Cheers ~ Ian
19th August 2006, 05:47 PM
Thank you for your answer. I think I come much close to my dreamboard :)
As I understand, for such light conditions (2-4 Bft) and mine 77kg the bigger boards would be quite OK, like C162 or GO155/170. Or even Phantom?
But if good days will come with 15-30 knots, will those big boards be still good to ride (of course with smaller rig like 6m2)?
In other words - what is the approx. upper limit for GO155/170, C162? Phantom?
19th August 2006, 06:31 PM
I asked Roger to come and bring some more GO planing threshold/experience/advice in the discussion.
Of the boards you listed GO155/170 and Phantom, only Phantom will give any acceptable performance in Bft2, GO's becoming OK in upper Bft3 and then good in Bft4.
just a few kts difference in windspeed over this range (2Bft-4Bft) is making a huge difference in the avaiable wind power, and according what works (properly) - vs what does not - will also change significantly over what seems just a (numerically) small differnce of windspeed.
The upper limit of all of these selections will be significantly influenced by the water/wave conditions. Higher wind and flatter water will lift the upper limit a lot, onshore winds or open water will get very choppy and push the upper limits lower, especially for an intermedite rider (or one looking for "pleasure" rather than the "survival" overpower ride often endured in Formula racing on similar sized boards !
Except in the worst chop, they will all be OK to around Bft4+ ( 15kts/30KpH) but above that, the practical/pleasure limit really would be subject to water state - and in most conditions wouldn't extend above 5Bft (15-20kts) - Which is about the time I emerge from the bunker to play.
Anyway, please keep asking until you got it resolved. It's important to make sure you make the most informed decision - get the most fun from the new toy !
Cheers ~ Ian
19th August 2006, 07:49 PM
Thanx Ian! and Roger!
It is great pleasure to feel the PERSONAL support from you guys and also understand that it will bring benefits for the many other WS like me :) :D
I realize that I will need smaller toy when I will grow up as WS and to cover 15+ knots wind conditions
Today I would consider something between GO155/170 and Phantom (depending on availability/price) in order to catch most of the days (usually 2-4 Bft)
(probably Phantom will be more expensive, difficult to get and sell off after :S
May be GO170 will be OK for mine 77kg with its more volume to cruise, starts plane earlier than GO155 and still OK up to 15 knots
19th August 2006, 10:41 PM
Ian has asked me to provide some advice on your "ultimate board" questions.
I agree with Ian, there is no simple "get this board and it will do all that you want" answer.
First lets put "windspeed" (which is basically what windsurfers use to gauge their "fun factor") into some different numbering systems besides your preferred Beaufort Force System.
Here's a little chart:
Bft Knots Km/h m/s mph description
1 1-3 1.1-5.4 0.3-1.5 0.7-3.5 Light Air
2 4-6 5.5-11.9 1.6-3.3 3.6-7.5 Light Breeze
3 7-10 12.0-19.4 3.4-5.4 7.6-12.2 Gentle Breeze
4 11-15 19.5-28.4 5.5-7.9 12.3-17.8 Moderate Breeze
5 16-21 28.5-38.5 8.0-10.7 17.9-24.0 Fresh Breeze
6 22-27 38.6-49.7 10.8-13.8 24.1-31.0 Strong Breeze
7 28-33 49.8-61.5 13.9-17.1 31.1-38.3 Near Gale
OK, you are asking for a board that will be fun in F2 Bft. That's only a max. of 6 knots. Perhaps the new Apollo, with a very large sail, could be fun in F2 Bft, but I think this is mostly the realm of the Serenity and Phantom in sub planing mode.
As Ian suggests, even the top pro FW sailors don't plane, with 12.5 m2 rigs in much less than Bft F 3.
The Go board you want, isn't going to do much or be much fun in Bft F2-F3.
When the windspeed gets to Bft F4 now you are getting into the "fun zone" for the GO boards. As Ian suggests, you will need an 8.5 m2 rig (or larger) to have much fun in 9- 11 knots (Bft F3/4) but the boards will begin to plane up at around that windspeed.
You will have some real "technique" and "positioning on the board" issues to resolve (coming from your old poly longboard) but you can easily make those transitions with a little advice for the forums here.
Probably the Windsurfing School forum has the most information on this.
The smaller GO boards, (139/129) are really too small to give good performance for a guy your size in < Bft F5.
So let's focus on the "mid size" GO boards (the 155 and 170).
The larger the GO you choose, the more light wind potential you will get, but at the cost of less high wind potential and comfort at your skill level.
I think the best overall blend, for what you seem to be asking for is the GO 170. Start with a 6.5 rig, and then once you've gotten accustomed to the wider shape, and no centerboard/daggerboard, purchase a larger sail or 2 to get the full range from around 9-10 knots to perhaps 20-22 knots.
That's pretty much going to have you planing right at the high F3-low F4
wind speeds (9-11 knots) with an 8.5 m2 or larger rig.
But, this will mean you will be "slogging" and not having much fun in lower Bft F3 and F2.
For that you would need the Phantom I think. But the Phantom is not going to be so good (it's a big wide and long board) when the windspeed reaches Bft F5.
If you can only have one board, my suggestion would be to try to find an '06 Starboard Hybrid Carve. It's smaller than the Phantom, and also "transitions" to being like a large Carve board by simply swinging up the centerboard. It's good to probably 18 knots, maybe a little more.
That's the closest I can come to a "one board" solution for you.
If you looked a getting 2 boards, then a Phantom and a GO 155 or 139 could be a good combination or perhaps the Carve 145/133 with the Phantom.
Hope this helps,
21st August 2006, 03:23 PM
thanx, great idea! - I'll try to find Hybrid Carve. It might be difficult in area I live, the GO and Carve are much more accessible here.
As an option I would go for the GO155 or Carve and leave my old poly board for the light wind.
(people told - for mine 77kg the GO 155 and 170 would start plane approx. at the same time but 170 will be more difficult to control on waves and chop on the higher wind trheshold)
21st August 2006, 10:41 PM
To some degree, I would agree with what "people have told me" but it's not quite that simple.
Look at the width of the different GO boards. That's the key.
Wider GO's will plane earlier, but when the wind gets to Bft F5 the width begins to become a liability.
Narrower GO boards will be a little more comfortable in Bft F 5 but will
not plane in Bft F3 (even high Bft F3) for a 177 lb. sailor.
Since I weigh almost the same as you do, here's where I would put the numbers on this.
The GO 155 will give up about 2 knots of early planing with an 8.5 m2 rig over the GO 170, but you will get about 2-3 knots of higher wind performance before the GO 155 starts to have the same "higher wind"
issues as the GO 170.
Your idea to get the GO 155 (I think this is a little small for a sailor your size) and keep your poly longboard for the light wind days is a good plan.
Or get a Carve 133/122 and get even a bit more medium wind performance and a true free ride feel.
Overall, the width of the GO 170/155 is going to make them a little eaiser to sail in 2-3 knots higher windspeed when compared to a large or mid sized Carve.
This is not something that very many people have figured out.
At around 20 knots (Bft F5) mid size and large Carves will suffer from the same "it's beginning to feel too big" issues as the GO 155/170, but the wider footstrap offset and larger fin on the GO boards will give you a little more range with good control.
This is mostly due to the surface conditions of the water than with the wind speed.
So, if where you plan to sail has big disorganized chop at 20 knots, you won't be comfortable. But on the other hand, if you have fairly flat water at 20 knots, then the GO and Carve will be fun and comfortable with smaller 5.5-6.5 m2 rigs in 17-20 knots.
If you have the big chop with lighter winds, then I think you will be looking for a 95-115 liter board real soon.
Hope this helps,
22nd August 2006, 02:51 PM
nice to hear from you again!
it is really interesting comparison of GO and Carve.
I wouldn't realize without your help that other factor than displacement (capacity) plays bigger role in this case (like width, footstrap offset, fin size) - the result is that GO170 or Carve133/122 are recommended for me.
Yes, I also thought about small toy for my growing 8 y.o. doughter ? like 100l Prokids GO, which could be useful for me later in chop & higher wind
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