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Klint
2nd May 2008, 11:56 PM
Great initiative! Really hope you succeed in convincing ISAF to abandon the RX class and replace it with Formula which makes much more sense. Let's hope for some real windsurfing action at the 2012 Olympic Games.

/ Andy

Joe
3rd May 2008, 01:18 AM
I agree - great idea. I like the idea of finally 1 sail! Less cost and less equipment. Hopefully it will work in 6-25 knots.
Why not change the course at the low wind end (6-12 knots) to an Olympic triangle course - less extreme downwind should require less sail area.
Also interesting that the Apollo was not put forward?

Philip
3rd May 2008, 06:35 AM
An excellent proposal. Goes to the heart of modern windsurfing. The London Olympics is indeed the perfect opportunity to showcase this progressive and exciting sport.

Unregistered
3rd May 2008, 08:55 AM
Nothing against formula, but the fact is that the Oympic events are over a specified time frame and a result is a must. Cant wait around for 6 knots to get a result.

Unregistered
3rd May 2008, 10:10 AM
The Serenity board would have been a good olympic class as well...;-)

James
3rd May 2008, 11:01 AM
Yeah, that wind minimum is a sticky point.

But I don't think 6 knots is too hard to come by in most places that would host a sailing regatta. There might be the occasional skunking, but I think the FOD could definitely work for the Olympics. I'd be happy to see it.

Does anyone know if adjustable downhauls and outhauls will be allowed?

viking
3rd May 2008, 11:09 AM
The Apollo was supposed to be the board... Is it again this type of shape that Starboard put too quickly on the market without enough development?

It is true that the Olympic class shall work by any weather, but how do they to with the 49ers, I do not imagine at all this type of boat with 2 knots... We will see in China!

Doby
3rd May 2008, 05:41 PM
Why an aluminium boom? This will not work with an 11 m2 sail.

Remi
3rd May 2008, 08:59 PM
Hi Viking,

The Formula 162 was chosen because it's in the Formula Class rules. The Apollo work with a 75cm fins.

Hi Doby,

With the new Monocoque construction we get a real stiff alloy boom. And just to know we are using aloy boom in the FE class, but this new one will help a lot.

All the best

7075
3rd May 2008, 09:25 PM
> Why an aluminium boom? This will not work with an 11 m2 sail.

It hasn't YET

There is help available.

http://asmcommunity.asminternational.org.

But if foot strap screws are a manifestation of a disease, don't hold out hope for a miracle boom cure.

Unregistered
3rd May 2008, 11:20 PM
Hmm, I have a mixed mindset about this one. While I think it is good for the sport to have more modern looking racing and equipment, I don't like that it will eliminate pumping. The pumping component I feel is integral to windsurfing and it is what makes Olympic windsurfers or boardsailors, if I may, true elite athletes right up there with Tri-athletes and long distance runners.

If you look at an RSX sailor, they are a prime specimen, everything a human ought to be; tall, lean, fit, smart and an uncanny elite aerobic capacity coupled with great strength. Is this not what the Olympics supposed to be? the best of ELITE athletes? As opposed to the best technology available to make a sport easy. If the latter were the case, runners would be wearing rollerblades, cyclists would ride motorcycles and high jumpers would be launching off trampolines.

To eliminate pumping while perhaps beneficial from a visual standpoint would completely remove the athlete component from the sport. Then we would just a bunch of sailors with Homer Simpson-esque physiques who were good just because they were fast, and fast just because they were heavy.

The notion that switching to one design would make it better for the athletes in so far as that they would not get injured and there would be less stress on the body, is really quite absurd. It's not supposed to be easy!!! That's why its in the Olympics, it's for the Elite. You don't expect your average recreational cyclist to be able to go battle it out on the hills with Lance Armstrong. Why should it be any different here?

Another absurdity; wanting to make the Olympic discipline more accessible to a variety of body shapes and sizes. Come on! I'm too tall to be a jockey, too short to be long jumper. I'm not going to go cry about it and try get them to change the rules to suit me now am I?

Are you too big for Mistral/RSX? (This also probably means you are too big to be good at other elite sports like iron man, tri, running and cycling too) That is what they invented Formula for!

The most comical thing about all of this is that they actually believe that by removing pumping it will make the racing more tactical. Are you kidding? Racing on an RSX is most tactical in the light, every 3 degree wind shift counts and strategic board placement is paramount. This FOD will not make racing more tactical, it will make it more like Formula: Start-tack-top mark-gybe set-Finish.

Since when was the Olympic sailing been about using the most advanced equipment anyway? You can't honestly tell me that 470ss, Ynglings, Stars, 49ers, and Lasers represent the worlds most advanced technology when it comes to Double-handed Dinghies, Single-handed Dinghies, Skiffs, and Keel Boats. Infact with the recent removal of the Tornado it would appear that there is a movement in quite the opposite direction. Why? Because its about the sailors, the athletes themselves and not their equipment.

Don't get me wrong, I hate every moment I have to spend looking at my RSX. It's heavy, expensive, and unreliable. Buying RSX equipment is like paying taxes, you don't want to throw half your earnings away but you have to. However, it does its job, it performs its function and works in that crucial 0-6 knot range. As a side note, does anyone actually thin that 100 FOD sailors will be planning off a start line together. No. Im sure they can go upwind in clear air but to do so in among traffic is questionable.

All of this aside I do think what Starboard is doing is a good thing and they are definitely the best people for the job with, thus far, the best proposal. I just think perhaps a better hybrid or even reverting back to a longboard (albeit a more modern one that the IMCO) is the way to go.

I'm sure you will all have a field day with this post. Glad I could entertain. Enjoy.

Unregistered
3rd May 2008, 11:21 PM
Hmm, I have a mixed mindset about this one. While I think it is good for the sport to have more modern looking racing and equipment, I don't like that it will eliminate pumping. The pumping component I feel is integral to windsurfing and it is what makes Olympic windsurfers or boardsailors, if I may, true elite athletes right up there with Tri-athletes and long distance runners.

If you look at an RSX sailor, they are a prime specimen, everything a human ought to be; tall, lean, fit, smart and an uncanny elite aerobic capacity coupled with great strength. Is this not what the Olympics supposed to be? the best of ELITE athletes? As opposed to the best technology available to make a sport easy. If the latter were the case, runners would be wearing rollerblades, cyclists would ride motorcycles and high jumpers would be launching off trampolines.

To eliminate pumping while perhaps beneficial from a visual standpoint would completely remove the athlete component from the sport. Then we would just a bunch of sailors with Homer Simpson-esque physiques who were good just because they were fast, and fast just because they were heavy.

The notion that switching to one design would make it better for the athletes in so far as that they would not get injured and there would be less stress on the body, is really quite absurd. It's not supposed to be easy!!! That's why its in the Olympics, it's for the Elite. You don't expect your average recreational cyclist to be able to go battle it out on the hills with Lance Armstrong. Why should it be any different here?

Another absurdity; wanting to make the Olympic discipline more accessible to a variety of body shapes and sizes. Come on! I'm too tall to be a jockey, too short to be long jumper. I'm not going to go cry about it and try get them to change the rules to suit me now am I?

Are you too big for Mistral/RSX? (This also probably means you are too big to be good at other elite sports like iron man, tri, running and cycling too) That is what they invented Formula for!

The most comical thing about all of this is that they actually believe that by removing pumping it will make the racing more tactical. Are you kidding? Racing on an RSX is most tactical in the light, every 3 degree wind shift counts and strategic board placement is paramount. This FOD will not make racing more tactical, it will make it more like Formula: Start-tack-top mark-gybe set-Finish.

Since when was the Olympic sailing been about using the most advanced equipment anyway? You can't honestly tell me that 470ss, Ynglings, Stars, 49ers, and Lasers represent the worlds most advanced technology when it comes to Double-handed Dinghies, Single-handed Dinghies, Skiffs, and Keel Boats. Infact with the recent removal of the Tornado it would appear that there is a movement in quite the opposite direction. Why? Because its about the sailors, the athletes themselves and not their equipment.

Don't get me wrong, I hate every moment I have to spend looking at my RSX. It's heavy, expensive, and unreliable. Buying RSX equipment is like paying taxes, you don't want to throw half your earnings away but you have to. However, it does its job, it performs its function and works in that crucial 0-6 knot range. As a side note, does anyone actually thin that 100 FOD sailors will be planning off a start line together. No. Im sure they can go upwind in clear air but to do so in among traffic is questionable.

All of this aside I do think what Starboard is doing is a good thing and they are definitely the best people for the job with, thus far, the best proposal. I just think perhaps a better hybrid or even reverting back to a longboard (albeit a more modern one that the IMCO) is the way to go.

I'm sure you will all have a field day with this post. Glad I could entertain. Enjoy.

RSX Sailor

Screamer
4th May 2008, 12:45 AM
Poster #11

So the intention was to entertain you say?

I think there's a lot of debatable stuff in that *board proposal, there's a lot to argue.

But ... your attitude is something special really. Now ponder this:

"If you look at an RSX sailor, they are a prime specimen, everything a human ought to be; tall, lean, fit, smart and an uncanny elite aerobic capacity coupled with great strength...the best of ELITE....

RSX sailor"

We're grateful superhumans share this forum with us.

steveC
4th May 2008, 01:07 AM
RSX Sailor,

I don't think that Starboard's proposal eliminates pumping, but rather, with a starting windspeed of 6 knots, the need for pumping is less necessary. I think establishing a realistic lower limit windspeed for racing makes real sense because elevating Olympic windsurfing to a planing sport better corresponds to what windsurfing truly is for the majority of windsurfers in the world.

I think that an emphasis on trying to race in no wind, and using pumping as a crutch to make it even possible, literally takes the heart out of the sport. I think that the idea of the steely, tough as nails athlete that can pump their way through the whole race as being the windsurfing ideal is way off the mark. If that model was the paramount focus of Olympic windsurfing, an argument would follow that harnesses should not be permitted.

There are already many disciplines in the Summer Olympics where incredible physical strength, endurance and athletic ability are the cornerstone for success. On the other hand, there are many other disciplines that don't rely on that model in the same terms, because often success depends on a different mix of abilities and strengths. In my opinion, I feel that windsurfing should fall in this latter arena, and I wholeheartedly welcome a focus on planing and tactical sailing performance.

Unregistered
5th May 2008, 03:47 AM
I welcome a focus on planing and tactical sailing performance.

But actually tactical sailing is to the fore in non planning racing.

RSX sailors.....everything a human should be. Except modest :-)

Unregistered
5th May 2008, 07:04 AM
I don't understand.

How can Starboard get it so wrong.

A Formula One Design will be the death of windsurfing at the Olympics. Full Stop.

FormulaNut
5th May 2008, 07:29 AM
Dear unregistered

Have you competed in Formula racing?



To Starboard:
Must applaud Starboard for stepping forward and promoting a windsurfing package for the Olympics that reflects modern windsurfing.


To Formula Organistaion:
Hopefully the formula organisation can step forward and promote the 1:3:3 format as the Olympic windsurfing package. What is the harm in trying!!?!
Why not try 1 board:3 sails:1 fin


Formula Nut

James
5th May 2008, 08:59 AM
I agree with SteveC on this one. I respect the athleticism of RSX sailors but I think the extreme pumping required discourages some of the most talented sailors from choosing to campaign in the windsurfing class as opposed to the other sailing classes. Also, it sort of alienates and differentiates the Olympic windsurfing class from "normal" windsurfing competition. There's a definite divide between Olympic style windsurfing and other high levels of windsurfing competition. FOD could narrow that divide, to the benefit of both Olympic windsurfing and professional formula racing.

US women's olympic hopeful Farrah Hall recently weighed in on the FOD issue on her website:

http://www.farrah-hall.com/index.php?option=com_mojo&Itemid=21&p=28

Unregistered
5th May 2008, 11:38 AM
When does ISAF meet to vote on this???

cause I taught they already voted on the 2012 classes when they kicked out the Tornado!

Unregistered
5th May 2008, 01:50 PM
When does ISAF meet to vote on this???

cause I taught they already voted on the 2012 classes when they kicked out the Tornado!
The last ISAF vote was to secure what disciplines are to be in 2012 games.
the actual sailing classes will be decided this november
sb

Unregistered
5th May 2008, 02:47 PM
As much as we like it or not- we are in a gear centric sport. We can dumb it down with kits like the RSX or FOD where 1 size fits all but the beauty of the windsurfer has been the ability to match your equipment with your weight and race fairly around the course.

Unregistered
5th May 2008, 04:13 PM
... the beauty of the windsurfer has been the ability to match your equipment with your weight and race fairly around the course.

Would you be referring to the mighty longboard?

Unregistered
5th May 2008, 04:48 PM
Would you be referring to the mighty longboard?

No...I was referring to the formula class where a lightweight like Sherman can compete on a much fairer ground against a heavyweight like Albeau!

Pacs
5th May 2008, 05:12 PM
Hi,

Any questions to the team:

- How about the boom? It will be stronger than actual alloy booms? When we will see this boom on market?

- How about the sail? It looks like 2008 Overdrive 11m. There will co-exist 2 ranges or FOD sail will replace/rename Overdrives?

- The fin will be really custom or made by Drake?

- Construction for this FOD162 will be improved for durability? (Maybe wood/carbon?)

Regards,

Paco

Unregistered
5th May 2008, 06:00 PM
what sail sizes will the youth formula one design class use. I know that it says 8.5 and 9.5, but who uses what size.

I think it is a good idea to get formula into the olympics, but non-planing windsurfing requires skill and tactics.

is the board planing in 6 knots of racing in 6 knots?

will starboard continue to support the raceboard class, because without similar windsurfing in the olympics, it could die.

Unregistered
5th May 2008, 07:08 PM
anybody here from starboard answering questions?

Unregistered
5th May 2008, 07:08 PM
So can anyone find any evidence for the claim that women and youth prefer FW? In at least two continents, more women and youth sailed the RB titles than the FW championships for their continent - and no, the RBers were not RSX sailors.

Add in the other racing classes and it seems like you'll probably find that women and youth DON'T prefer FW. Where's the evidence for the claim? Show us the numbers!

Same with the claims that "racers prefer FW". In at least a few major windsurfing countries, only a minority of racers choose to sail FW. Where's the evidence for this claim? Show us the numbers!

And as far as the "modern windsurfing is planing" line; well, can anyone show us a windsurfing that doesn't plane? Hell, even the bleeding Olympic Windglider planed.

Saying "modern windsurfing is planing" is like saying "modern snow skiing happens on snow" or "modern swimming happens in the water"...

If SB are going to make claims like this, they should pony up with some numbers to show whether their claims are true. How 'bout it?

Unregistered
5th May 2008, 07:43 PM
If SB are going to make claims like this, they should pony up with some numbers to show whether their claims are true. How 'bout it?
Also lets see this wonder sail: an 11.0 3 cam race sail that has a range from 6-30k!

...and the rest of the kit- 75% carbon mast and alloy boom!
Where's the R&D on this- or are the poor Olymnpic campaigners going to take the brunt of it again- just like they did for the RSX development program.

Unregistered
5th May 2008, 08:15 PM
I agree with #11 RSX sailor. For us, funboarders, or weekend racers, there are no difference what board will be in 2012. Almost all RSX racers are professionals. No one board can bring me close to them

Remi
5th May 2008, 11:15 PM
Hi All,

In FE we use only alloy boom and for exemple the Nautix one works great with the 11m, but the new one in the proposal is a lot stiffer and stronger. This kind of boom have be test during more than one year before too launch in production. This will show a new high level in alloy boom.

The avantage of the 11m for men and 9,5m for women is that kind of sail have a huge wind range and are more soft than Formula Windsurfing sails who are much stiffer with a short wind range but fast in that wind range. So this kind of sail who show us since many years his potential is much more easy to use, trim, durable and to pump. The 75% carbone mast also give an excelent performance with good durabilty.

The fin will be produce by Deboichet Custom and have be chosen to work in a wide wind range to have the best performance.

All the best

James
6th May 2008, 02:35 AM
Another benefit I see of having an Olympic OD class that is similar to a popular, real-world racing class is that it would facilitate training and high-level competition. Olympic FOD sailors could race reasonably competitively in mixed fleet Formula and FE events, which would help out with sponsorship and travel and stuff.

Of course, having a good longboard raceboard as the Olympic OD would have similar benefits; riders could enter raceboard class events on their Olympic gear. (Some still do it on their mistral one-designs and even place fairly well.)

The problem with the RSX is that it's just not enough like any of the popular existing windsurf racing classes to evenly compete with them. It sort of needs a whole, separate system, and I think that stretches the already-small worldwide pool of windsurf racers a little too thin.

In summary- IMHO, either raceboard or formula would be better for the Olympics than RSX / Hybrid.

ingcur
6th May 2008, 04:31 AM
I've been a racer a long time. Started out on longboards, moved to course race shortboards, then to IMCO, while also trying to be competitive in slalom.
Never really liked the IMCO, so when the whole daggerboard+casing broke out on a backloop attempt, I stored it and have no idea where the damn thing is today.
I stopped courseracing when formula came out because it wasn't an olympic class and I was not competitive racing course race shortboards. I considered RSX a couple of years back, but that thing is an abomination. 18+ KG? Come on.
Everyone I've talked to was put off by its performance. And me, I would only have to
train on it for the competitions. Doing a long downwinder + upwinder just for fun would
never come to mind.
So I considered the price and the current price my kidney will get me on the black market
and didn't buy it.
Formula on the other hand, would just be fun. Not only would I enjoy training on it, but I can imagine sailing on it just for fun.

Based on these experiences I can see *boards feeder class idea work. I think there
are plenty of people who have an Olympic dream. Not just making it to the Olympics,
but the whole idea of working harder then the other guys and make it against all odds.
I could never find myself in this dream doing an activity that I did not truly love. And to me
RSX is not windsurfing... it's a form of sailing. And as for the perfect specimen argument
of an RSX Racer... Trust me if FOD will come to be as I really hope, the FOD racers will
come to embody that same argument. That's what the Olympics, imho, bring out in people.
The honor of representing your country and working 200% in order to beat the others
who are also working 200%.

So let the Olympics be a reflection of our sport, the sensation of windsurfing which got us hooked to this sport.

As far as the 6knots argument goes... I've sailed IMCO youth Championship in Greece.
90% of the competition there was no wind, not a bit nothing. It took me a couple of
hours to get from the finish back because I refused to paddle (never swam back before without breaking kit). I was passed by the
entire women fleet who paddled passed us after finishing.
If taking the risk on FOD means we'll might have to fight it out with one foot in front of
the mast, then so be it. The spirit of the fight will be the same...

FYI/+OT I never completed a backloop on IMCO and the daggerboard case breaking out
was is due not bad construction, that thing is not made for it. I was just a kid and stupid, I have to pay for my own gear these days, and one day my kid will do the same to me to redeem me from my sin.

Unregistered
6th May 2008, 05:22 AM
If Curtis lifter type fin was an option then if a race had partial non planning the race wouldn't have to be abandoned.

James
6th May 2008, 07:21 AM
Yeah, I think if FOD get their foot in the door with the 1 sail / 1 fin thing, then maybe they can negotiate a 2 sail / 2 fin option. That would make the 6 - 25 knots range a lot more realistic IMHO.

As is, I have a hard time picturing how an individual who could plane with an 11.0 and 70 cm fin in 6 knots could hold down that same sail and fin in 25 knots. He would definitely have to be an Olympian to do it.

windsurferdagg
6th May 2008, 07:45 AM
I think this could really change peoples views on racing. No longer do you need tons of gear to race. One sail, one board, one fin will bring more recreational sailors into racing. I like the idea. Brings racing to the not as rich/not sponsored riders who can't afford all the new kit. It also makes it easier for younger people like me to get into it. Its hard enough affording used gear for younger people without a solid job (or anyone without a solid job for that matter.

My two cents,

Thomas
www.tdaggws.blogspot.com

Unregistered
6th May 2008, 08:51 AM
I hate this
I need some rsx replacement parts but why bother until november when ISAF chooses.

Question,
Is the 162 currently being sold exactly the same as the proposed olympic 162?

Unregistered
6th May 2008, 09:10 AM
This is from the Starboard website


Project Apollo: With the new two year registration period, the Formula Windsufing class aims to grow stronger, more stable and more popular. Its goal is to become a fantastic candidate as the new 2012 Windsurfing Olympic class. Summary:
Apollo: designed to help Formula Windsurfing become the 2012 Windsurfing Olympic class
Apollo: The World's Earliest Planing Board

Unregistered
6th May 2008, 09:46 AM
Despite what the formula/overview page says. I think the intention from StarBoard is to put forward the 162 model.

Can SB clears this up?

Remi
6th May 2008, 09:53 PM
Hi James,

The sail have be chosen to fit the wind Range 6 to 25 knots. This have proven that it's works for racers under 80 kgs for the 11m and 9,5 for women under 65 kgs. And we choose a fin from Deboichet Custom who fit also the same wind condition. Yes that will be less faster than the Formula Windsurfing equipment who will choose the perfect sail and fin for a short wind range, but in this case, we focus on wide wind range.

All the best

sergio k
6th May 2008, 10:30 PM
I'm all for FOD format proposal, considering it HAS to be one design, and
if new alum. boom proves itself durable. General trend I see,
being aroung Pro-AM races in Miami area, although racers have more than one fin/sail, more are choosing just one sail/one fin combo, avg. sail 11 m2 and fin 70 super soft,
so SB proposal rings truth.

Unregistered
6th May 2008, 11:23 PM
To Remi dream team person,

what kit are the youth racers on for the FOD? are they on a different fin? and who uses the 8.5 and who uses the 9.5?

from junior racer who thinks RSX is overpriced

Remi
7th May 2008, 05:24 PM
Hi Unregistered,

This is the proposal :

The Formula Experience Class work great for under 17 years old with max 8,5m. The fin will be the stock one Drake R13 70cm. We use this kit with a lot of succes in the ISAF wind range. They enjoy a lot with this equipment at a really inexpensive price.

Under 19 years old that will be the FOD + the 9,5 for the boys and 8,5 for the women + the Deboichet Customs fin.

All the best

Remi
7th May 2008, 05:31 PM
Hi Sergio,

We propose for the men a 11m and 9,5m for women, who have a better wind range than the Formula Windsurfing sails and a super soft fin who work really great in the lighter winds and give also good control in higher winds. The combo give you the possibility to have only one sail and one fin in the ISAF wind range.

All the best

Unregistered
7th May 2008, 09:01 PM
I think this new Olympic concept will kill Formula Experience. Well, We don't see much FE competition anyway.

Duffy
7th May 2008, 10:04 PM
I think this new Olympic concept will kill Formula Experience. Well, We don't see much FE competition anyway. I agree.

Formula is great but to expensive for me, the joe average sailor. One Design Formula is attractive but looks like the Pryde experience all over again. My RSX is collecting dust, no one wants to by it. Why......because no one sails them for fun.

I have gone full circle and have ended up back here -

This article on a longboard website might fuel some debate

http://www.lbwindsurfing.com/2007/09/21/the-olympic-circus/

sergio k
8th May 2008, 12:38 AM
I agree.

Formula is great but to expensive for me, the joe average sailor. One Design Formula is attractive but looks like the Pryde experience all over again. My RSX is collecting dust, no one wants to by it. Why......because no one sails them for fun.

I have gone full circle and have ended up back here -

This article on a longboard website might fuel some debate

http://www.lbwindsurfing.com/2007/09/21/the-olympic-circus/

we do sail formula boards for 'fun' all the time, that my most used board(6-18knots),
if you want to plane and not seat on the beach waiting for 12 knots min....
and SB fine tunes the 11m2 rig to make it cheap and rangy with alum boom,
that could be one board/sail solution for many sailors in light wind areas,
if you don't care if you plane or not, than longboard is great choice though

Unregistered
8th May 2008, 06:03 AM
I dint't know why so much discussion about FW Onde Design. Follow me people, Just 2 or 3 FW boards on the market this days (*Board, Exocet and F2), I don't remember any other brand now. F2 is almost out of business, I don't know about Exocet, they might give up FW soon like Fanatic and Mistral. Soon We'll have FW one design rather we like it or not.
Sad but true.
Well, let's sail.

Unregistered
12th May 2008, 03:45 AM
Is this new sail to be a lot different to Overdrive ?

Unregistered
12th May 2008, 06:43 AM
I think one of the problems with marketing this as 100% windsurfing etc. is that we limit non-planing windsurfing which has the potential to be the biggest potential of windsurfing world-wide, imagine millions of chinese and possibly indians on their sub-planing windsurfings gliding away on their light wind destinations, how are we going to reconcile with this potential if it's not REAL windsurfing? A new name for it? THEN YOU LOSE THE BRAND OF WINDSURFING?

Remi
12th May 2008, 10:16 AM
Hi Unregistered,

The 11m is very close to the Overdrive and the 9,5 is the same spirit but smaller than the 10m production.

This sails was devellope for the Formula Experience Class for years and fit the ISAF wind range (6 to 25 knots)

All the best

Philip
13th May 2008, 06:05 AM
On low wind days the fastest guys on our patch of water are the kayakers - have not seen exotic WS like Serenity of course, but for sheer numbers its going to be gliding along in a kayak. Don't have one myself but it is not such a bad idea for running in the rivers too.

Unregistered
13th May 2008, 09:48 AM
Fully support Star Boards 2012 concept but this video is a load of crap, bold claims that are not based on fact will get shot down real quick.

Unregistered
13th May 2008, 01:35 PM
I can't even open the thing, Quicktime tells me it's not a movie file - what gives?

Unregistered
13th May 2008, 02:54 PM
Fully support Star Boards 2012 concept but this video is a load of crap, bold claims that are not based on fact will get shot down real quick.



Can you Expand on that ?

Unregistered
13th May 2008, 04:23 PM
Can you Expand on that ?

The most popular windsurfing class?

2007 Formula Worlds:

Men: Approx: 70?
Woman: 2?
Youth: 5?

Total: 72 (including woman?)

2008 RS: X Worlds:

Men: 100
Woman: 67
Youth: Unsure but for sure more than 5.

More attractive to the youth...marginal, more attractive to the woman...no.

Additionally the format of the video is not universal and not one shot of the new one design concept in action.

So not really doing much for the pitch using false claims which can be easily negated and including nothing to promote the actual equipment.

However I agree Weymouth would provide a great venue for Formula style racing as would a lot of the lead in events which currently include European Championships in Paros (Greece) Worlds in Weymouth (London), Perth (Australia), Buzios (Brazil).

mcasaldaliga
13th May 2008, 04:45 PM
my two cents:

I think it is a fantastic initiative, but as it is I am afraid it will only benefit Formula Windsurfing grow and probably not catch to olympics.

- is the 6 kt limit credible? (Upwind planing in 6kt within dirty air in large fleet?)
- As we have seen in some post, if the olympic decision is left only to the current olympic athletes I think they will like to stick to a NOT 100% planning class. Their current skills include as a core part hard pumping, windshift reading, etc
They should be convinced not with spectacularity issues but with arguments that show that in lightwind FW there some room for tactics and sailing skills. (I think there room for them in FW, but maybe in a different way)


On the other point, why not making it more credible to low wind venues choosing an Apollo like board?
Of course, in high wind range is not so competitive and in light winds it needs a 75cm fin (FW ilegal), but as a dedicated One Design concept I think it makes sense.

May be which may sense is an Apollo with 2 fins: soft powerful 75cm for lightwinds, and a second fin that will make Apollo controllable in moderate winds. Not a big extra expense and more solid concept.

Of course this Apollo One Design wouldn't be competitive with current formula 1:3:3, but anyway a 1 sail/1fin solution will never be. So keep it different and just mantain compatibility with a 70 cm FW legal fin for weekend racers.

My point is that if you want to get into olympics or in REAL LIGHTWIND it has to be a slight different solution. At the same time, the solution this way, can also make grow FW fleets for non-professional racers, as I see it, this is the real goal of the initiative (Don't you think in the same FW event can coexist the OD division and open 1:3:3 division for "pro" aspirants?)

Of course, this Apollo strategy may not be the best for Starboard sales strategy but that's another point ...

That's my view of it.

Best regards

Marc

Unregistered
13th May 2008, 10:46 PM
Olympic Concept Video with NOT A SINGLE IMAGE OF THE EQUIPMENT??
Is this a Joke? You can do better.

Remi
14th May 2008, 08:53 AM
Hi mcasaldaliga,

Appreciate your comments, but you said that is impossible to one sail and one fin for 6 to 25 knots. This correct for Code Red, Rsr, Warp etc, but in this case we developpe a sail that who is not fast as this sails in a small range, but who have a wide wind range. The 11m that we propose have been test during years in this direction and the 9,5 is the same as the curent production 10 but smaller to fit the ISAF wind range for the women.

Allison Shreeve do the event in Portugal last week and show that is work.

The Apollo have not be chosen not because of sale strategy but because the F162 with the new fin R20 rake + 6cm show excellent results in the ISAF wind range, more difficult for the Apollo.

Doesn't matter one wich equipement the Olympic racers will be, in any case they will be top shape, but in this case they will pump a lot less on this Formula Windsurfing One Design and their body weight will be probably between 70 and 80 kgs for the men and 55 and 65kgs for the women.

Hi Unregistered,

This is normal, because we just launch the concept so difficult to have vido of the equipment before.
Allison do the first event with it last week. You can see the equipement on this video : http://sineswindsurfgp08.overpower.net/Ingles/Tabs/PressRoom/VideoGaleria.php


All the best

mcasaldaliga
15th May 2008, 04:42 AM
Hi Remi, thanks for your answer. No troll criticism for my part just that I would like the initiative to succeed

>Appreciate your comments, but you said that is impossible to one sail and one fin for 6 to >25 knots. This correct for Code Red, Rsr, Warp etc, but in this case we developpe a sail >that who is not fast as this sails in a small range, but who have a wide wind range. The >11m that we propose have been test during years in this direction and the 9,5 is the >same as the curent production 10 but smaller to fit the ISAF wind range for the women.

I understand the intent of this "OD rig", and other OD rigs have already shown it is possible (RsX, Kona) but for formula I was just suggesting increasing the wind range with 2 especialized fins (one for very light winds and other for medium and higher winds). Not big extra expense and hassle (compared to a 2nd sail) and maybe great improve in both ends of wind range. May be making more credible 6kt wind low limit

>The Apollo have not be chosen not because of sale strategy but because the F162 with >the new fin R20 rake + 6cm show excellent results in the ISAF wind range, more difficult >for the Apollo.

In the medium and higher winds I would imagine it, but also in marginal 6 kts?
Where is there, then, the Apollo windrange advantange
Or is it that the even the Apollo is not much better in lights and really worst in mediums. Maybe a next generation of Apollo is needed then. I think the low wind limit is really important for olympics and shouldn't be sneakly considered

>Doesn't matter one wich equipement the Olympic racers will be, in any case they will be >top shape, but in this case they will pump a lot less on this Formula Windsurfing One >Design and their body weight will be probably between 70 and 80 kgs for the men and 55 >and 65kgs for the women.

my suggestion is to address Olympic racers with the points they are good at. Tactics (may be essential in getting free air in marginal wind conditions) and fitness and endurance (also useful for pumping onto plane in marginal).

I think the OD proposal makes sense for the aim of growing FW, for it's own sake, and the message you give for it will catch, but for the olympics sugestion is not to oversell the OD class with not credible limits. Just state the limitations and try to show the sailing component of formula, to convince olympic sailors.

By the way ISAF has already accepted FOD as a class? (irrespective of finally being chosen as olympic equipment)

A ambitious OD class always generates interesting discussion!

Best regards

Marc

mcasaldaliga
15th May 2008, 04:45 AM
oops! Quoting Remi didn't work as expected.
the paragraphs that I quote from him contain the >'s

Marc

Remi
15th May 2008, 10:28 AM
Hi Marc,

Understand all your point, but just help you to understand the concept.

We choose the F 162 because with the R20 rake + 6 we can plane really in light winds and it's much more easy in medium and strong winds. So this fin cover all the ISAF wind range for the men and women.

The IWA and Formula Windsurfing Class propose this format for the Olympic 2012, the decision will be taken the 15 november. Until this date Allison will show at different event that it's work. She found it a lot less physical than the RSX.

If you any question, it will be a pleasure to answer you.

All the best

sergio k
16th May 2008, 04:21 AM
the new batch of super soft fins really opened up the performace of the formula boards,
if new fins proposed are anything like Kashy's, Fin Work's, or Ifju's,
you really have to try them before judging if 6 knots is planeble or not,
I know it works for me with 10m2 (62kg) and I'm NOT an olimpic level windsurfer :)...

one comment for Remi, for women's class, since they're lighter I would suggest
using slightly softer fins than men's, you guys should check it out

Remi
16th May 2008, 11:33 AM
Hi Sergio k,

Thanks for your comments, but we already test it with Morane who is 56kgs it works great. Morane is planning with gust at 6 knots with that fin and handle until 25 knots. You can see her in max 6 knots : http://www.star-board.com/2008/pages/news/news.php?readmore=351

Test also with riders form 70 to 85 kgs with 11m before to propose the package.

This Deboichet fin is the R20 rake + 6cm who is the softer fins that ever made and go directly in the same spirit as the Kashy.

All the best

nicoprego
19th May 2008, 04:54 AM
Supposing This Proposal, Which I Find A Great Initiative, Comes Through In The Voting On November 2008, When Do You Think That The Equipment, After Starting The Production, Be Distributed In Latin America, Lets Say Argentina?
I Would Appreciate If Anyone That Has Any Idea Could Let Me Know, Since I Am In A Debate Of Buying A Formula Windsurfing Gear Or Waiting Ffor The Starboard Fod.. Another Thing, How Much Will It Ccost? Thankss

Allisonaus911
21st May 2008, 06:49 PM
Hi All,
I have been racing Olympic class boards for 10 years. Starting on the Mistral One Design, then to RS:X. Since 2004 I have also been racing on Formula, Slalom and Speed boards.

I have been racing on the new Starboard Formula One design kit now for a month and have spoken to many people about their views with the equipment. 99% of people are completely excited about the kit and cant wait for it to be selected for 2012 London Olympics. The few who were negative about the gear only really had one main argument..."Will the kit be able to race in 6 knots and under?" My reply is this:

I can plane earlier on the FOD equipment than any current formula kit out there and the RS:X, I have done this with the 9.5m sail and the 11m sail. I have proved this at two events already within the past month. The wind readings at the time were 5-6knots at both venues. I think that there is no reason why this equipment can't race in fleets in 6 knots. Perhaps the racing course should be a slalom or figure 8 course if we have to race in 6 knots and once we have 7 knots and above, go back to the windward leeward courses and trapazoidal courses.

I remember a few years ago at many Mistral regattas, sailors would whistle and bang on their sails in protest to race in anything under 6 knots!! Ever since the Olympics were chosen for Beijing every race committee around the world for Olympic classes have now started races in under 6 knots ("because we are going to have to sail in 2-4knots in Beijing!!" they would say). This is not sailing! All Olympic fleets around the world have shrunk unhealthily in size, and are eating carrot sticks while training 6-8hour days for extreme light wind conditions. Because we have such a low wind limit now, we do our two races in stupidly light wind conditions and because our two races are finished by lunch time we always sail in, in the nice sea breezes (when we should have been racing).

I think we should go back to a 6 knot minimum wind limit like it should be and if need be wait an hour or two until the breezes come in and have some good racing. Exciting, windy racing that the media, public and sailors around the world would be interested in. The media are only interested in the medal race anyway, so why not have good races during the week in good wind and then have a scheduled time for the medal race for the media if thats what they are pushing for!

I have really enjoyed racing on this Formula One design equipment. There are so many positives I won't name them all now. But I will say. Both men's and women's kits are performing well in 6-25knots which is the criteria for Olympic sailing. It is competetive with the current formula fleets so training and racing will be fantastic for Olympic sailors who want to train and race with formula sailors. Many young kids have said that they would come back to Olympic class if the Formula One Design kit was chosen for the London Olympics.

All the best,
Allison Shreeve
www.aus911.com

Unregistered
21st May 2008, 07:41 PM
Alison, can you please tell us why so few women and youth are sailing formula, if they are so excited by it?

Thanks

James
22nd May 2008, 01:50 AM
Thanks for sharing the insider's perspective, Allison! :) I was especially encouraged to hear this:

"It is competetive with the current formula fleets so training and racing will be fantastic for Olympic sailors who want to train and race with formula sailors."

Cool!

In response to unregistered, I think there are 2 reasons for the current lack of women and youth in formula. 1) There just aren't that many women and youth in windsurfing, period. 2) The current rules of formula favor wealthy, tall, beefy riders who like to get technical about their equipment.

Unregistered
22nd May 2008, 02:19 AM
Around 100 Woman racing RS: X globally...

TCN
22nd May 2008, 10:11 AM
This is awesome for Formula, Now the class can attract the youths that get pushed into the olympic class and retain them in a sustainable class.

Interested in more info about how the rig has been made to work in such a wide range, any more info or pics...?

Remi
22nd May 2008, 11:37 AM
Hi All,

http://www.windsurfjournal.com/frontblocks/news/PaperView.asp?id_papers=3539&ID_BB_LANGUAGES=2

All the best

Unregistered
24th May 2008, 07:33 AM
James, you're right about the women and youth (although there's pretty good scenes in T15 and T293) but maybe the lack of women and kids could indicate that the whole sport has lost its way badly, and that F1 Design (while a pretty good idea) may just be fiddling on the edges.

steveC
24th May 2008, 09:59 AM
Really, racing is a specialist's game. Frankly, one where a sailor wants to officially compete in a formal arena, regardless of their age of sex. In the real world, I think that windsurfing is far broader than that on the larger scheme of things. The majority could care less about their competitive standing in the pool. Their interests in participation are often very different and more fun and leisure oriented.

I'm not against competitive racing, or those involved, but they will always be the minority of folks participating in the sport at that level. Nothing unusual in that, because other sports exhibit the same kind of percentages levels of official and formal competitive participation in their overall numbers. It must be remembered in Olympic competitions, the numbers representing each nation are incredibily factional relative to those numbers that might be involved in the sport in their country. The characteristic to Olympic competition at the international level.

Like I suggested in an earlier post, I'm for Starboard's 2012 Olympic proposal. As an interested party, I would like to see a focus on the planing aspect of the sport, and I think that the ISAF specified wind range of 6-25 knots makes for a more practical target overall for presenting the best of our sport to the world. The last thing that we need to be doing is showing a small group of very youthful athletes continually pumping and slowly working their way around some constrained course. By introducing the virtual planing environment as a requirement, windsurfing hits its best target. This doesn't draw from non-planing opportunities possible in the sport, but I think marketing that experience really exists on a different level.

Unregistered
27th May 2008, 11:40 AM
"Really, racing is a specialist's game. Frankly, one where a sailor wants to officially compete in a formal arena, regardless of their age of sex. In the real world, I think that windsurfing is far broader than that on the larger scheme of things. The majority could care less about their competitive standing in the pool. Their interests in participation are often very different and more fun and leisure oriented."

I don't agree and hate such "philosophy". Total BS. After such a "motivation" like "very different and more fun and leisure oriented" every beginner will decide not to participate. Because he is "very special and fun oriented" and after year or two he'll becomes a kitesurfer. No racing means no windsurfing at all.

There are no alternatives or choices. Propaganda must say PARTICIPATE in RACING. Only this way communities are built.

steveC
28th May 2008, 01:50 AM
Well poster #73, you have a right to subscribe to any philosophy you want, and in addition, hate others that feel differently. I have windsurfed avidly for over 23 years now and I have never raced (and don't want to), and I have absolutely no intent to kitesurf, so not everybody must race to stay interested in windsurfing.

If you lived where I live, you would be terribly frustrated because there's absolutely nobody racing, and I seriously doubt you would find anybody interested in that avenue. For those that moved over to kiting, I can say that none of them race kites either. Frankly, most people that participate in windsurfing or kiting want nothing to do with the rules, pressures and constraints involved in racing. Of course, there are some windsurfers that are avid racers and thrive on it, and I probably wouldn't be going out on a limb to say that if it wasn't for competitive racing they would very likely lose interest in unstructured windsurfing. But, as I suggested earlier, the racing focused windsurfer is in the minority on the overall scheme of things. You may want the realities to be different, but in my view things aren't really going to change much. However, I wouldn't even begin to consider trying to discourage folks that want to race from promoting their interests.

Since you mentioned folks going over to kiting, I thought I'd offer my take on the situation that caused the exodus from windsurfing, at least in my area. Really, the culprit is wavesailing. There is a lot of promotion, both organized and coming out of the grassroots level, that identifies wavesailing a arguably the paramount focus of the sport. In many respects, it's awfully hard to deny that. Just pick up any windsurf magazine and it's pretty obvious. Wavesailing is definitely cool in most people's book.

Over the years at my locale, it watched the majority of my friends turn into wavesailors, and they ultimately structured their gear specifically around that focus. No slalom stuff for these guys, and absolutely no big sails. Given that the winds are generally light most of the time, and in light of the fact that good waves tend to be infrequent at best, these folks just painted themselves into a corner.

Now, with kiting, even in real light winds, the opportunities for fairly radical air time and tricks offered an exciting avenue to invest in. It didn't take long to mature their focus towards the waves. In the run of mill light wind and small waves that generally affect local venues here, kiters can rip it up like nobody else. There's no question in my mind why there was a huge exodus from windsurfing, and really, nobody is coming back to the fold.

What's the answer to the situation. In my opinion, it's all about promoting all kinds of windsurfing, so that a broad spectrum of folks have different avenues to choose from and grow into. It's a big picture approach that doesn't belittle participants with varying levels of interest or ability. I think the main emphasis is fun, and I think most wouldn't disagree.

Philip
28th May 2008, 06:02 AM
At one time I dabbled in WS racing and had the good gear. But where I live the sport trended to unstructured WS although in other parts of Australia racing has a really strong following. I can't explain the geographic differences. At any location though I suggest there are people who see WS primarily as either a competitive outlet while others see it more as a kind of performing art, but the competitive streak is always in there somewhere otherwise we would not push ourselves to higher levels of performance. While the racers can measure their performance by reference to placings with others, the unstructured crowd are increasingly measuring their performance by comparative GPS speeds. But the latter don't need an organisation to do their thing - much more flexible. So that might be the thing.

C249
28th May 2008, 06:50 AM
Interesting points. For what it's worth, I'd agree that Poster 73's over the top. Windsurfing is about much more than racing, and there are other ways to build a community. We could have groups that get together for mutual coaching, or we could build up expedition-style windsurfing into something like the social sea kayaking scene. There's some strong social-oriented windsurfing clubs.

On the other hand, racing's not just about "competition" in the sense of trying to prove one's superiority as a person by finishing first. It doesn't prove any such thing.

A famous sailing writer pointed out that "the object of the game is winning, but that's not the reason why we play the game". Like Tim Galwey said years ago, lots of people like to compete for the same reason that surfers like to surf the biggest wave (or windsurfers sail in strong winds); because it poses a bigger challenge. Sure, you can go out and challenge yourself with manouevres or just sailing in strong winds, but that's not always physically possible, and it lacks that clear cut way of measuring how you met the challenge that racing can provide.

I actually find there's less competitiveness in some ways on the racecourse; there's none of the aggro you get surfing where the pecking order is unclear and therefore has to be created and enforced by attitude. Lots of other "non-competitive" people just use gear snobbery to elevate themselves above the rest. And as Phillip says, even freesailing is often disguised competition; what criteria do we use to work out whether we did a "good" gybe? A lot of the time we judge ourselves against others, and isn't that a form of competitiveness?

And of course, racing can be really great because both the motivation to get out there and the social side get better when you have made a commitment to turn up at X o'clock every ....day, and you know that 25 of your friends will be there at that time too. Hell, it's a lot easier to get out of the house when the rest of the family can programme your sailing as a regular event.

I've had many an argument with Steve C in earlier times, but he's been putting out some great stuff lately IMHO. His point "it's all about promoting all kinds of windsurfing, so that a broad spectrum of folks have different avenues to choose from and grow into. It's a big picture approach that doesn't belittle participants with varying levels of interest or ability" is 100% on the money.

Sail Quick
28th May 2008, 01:35 PM
Olympic Windsurfing has always seemed like a bit of an embarassment to me, the whole OD and trying to sail in 2 knots of wind thing is not really representitive of modern windsurfing. I think it's time to get rid of it unless we can have some hard, fast exciting proper racing like slalom. If its not planning its not windsurfing, its just floating and pumping which is just silly, SUP racing would be more interesting.

C249
28th May 2008, 03:19 PM
Well, I'll have to take issue with that SQ; the sport of windsurfing started out as standing on a board in light winds. That's when it earned the name "windsurfing". And considering that modern windsurfing is a lot smaller than it used to be, the "planing is all" image that is 'modern windsurfing' doesn't seem to be helping the marketing of the sport. Having done a lot of both, I can't see why light wind sailing is any less "proper" than slalom.

Olympic windsurfing has created heroes who have been the central figure in the biggest moment of the world's biggest sporting event (Nikos K lighting the Olympic flame), named by the majority of teens as their favourite sportsperson, do TV commercials and have statues in their honour (Lee Lai Shan), do speaking tours (Gal Friedman), or are in the top 10 in a major survey of the most trusted Kiwis and get asked by the biggest paper in the land about the upsides and downsides of being famous (Barb Kendall).

That's pretty damn good publicity, and maybe this huge publicity is working; the Euro T293 fleets and the UK T 15 scene are both about all-wind racing, and both attract hundreds and hundreds of kids - far more than get into freesailing as far as I can see.

Unregistered
28th May 2008, 03:48 PM
I find light wind racing the most intense exciting and hardest part of the sport.
The wind is generally most variable when light. So the mental side is crucial.
If you do it properly and pump hard its gets harder to concentrate and make the right chioces.

China will be extreme

Sail Quick
28th May 2008, 04:13 PM
I take issue with it being called windsurfing, it should have its own name so it is not an embarassment to real windsurfers, I think it should be called 'Pump boarding for skinny people' or something.

Unregistered
28th May 2008, 04:37 PM
I take issue with it being called windsurfing, it should have its own name so it is not an embarassment to real windsurfers, I think it should be called 'Pump boarding for skinny people' or something.


"air rowing" was the term coined by former ISAF president Paul Henderson to describe the kinetics of the olympic windsurfing class.
Spot on, if I do saw so myself!

Ken
29th May 2008, 03:48 AM
Windsurfing, Boardsailing or whatever, it is what it is - a board powered by the wind & a sail. If it is on a wave or in 20 knots, 50 knots or 3 knots of wind, it is "Windsurfing".

My early days of racing in the mid 80's was a real kick. Most races were in light winds on Superlights, Windsurfers, Windwings, Bic's, some DII boards (Crit), etc. Skill, technique and race strategy were essential if you wanted to be competative. It was a lot of fun, having 30 - 40 boards packed together fighting for wind and position. Not exceptionally exciting when compared to running down wind on a Formula board in 30 knots of wind, but nevertheless, tons of fun. It's not for everyone, but for those with a competitive spirit, racing has its place.

There are lots of recreational windsurfers that never know how limited their skills are until they begin to race. When you have a fixed course that requires you to point as high and run as deep as possible, jibe or tack at a specific point, you are forced to learn new skills. Being at the starting line at a specific time in order to have a good start requires good skills at managing the position of your board in all sorts of wind conditions. Racing simply makes you a better sailor because it quickly identifies your weaknesses. Can you be a great windsurfer without competition? Sure, and those with the desire and drive to be accomplished at whatever turns them on, they will eventually get there.

The advancements in equipment have been amazing in the last 30 years. Much of that can be attributed to competition (racing, waves, freestyle, speed, etc). If it weren't for this competition, the drive and desire for higher performance gear would not be nearly as strong. Name an active sport which relies on equipment like cars, snow skiing, snowmobiles, jet skis, kite boards, shooting, sailing, rowing, water skiing and on and on. All of these have had significant technological and performance advancements as a result of racing or competition.

For those that don't like pumping, you might be surprised at how much you do if you are an accomplished windsurfer. It is an essential skill that at the least, gets you on plane out of a tack, jibe, catching a wave, or just getting off the beach. Good pumping skills are essential if you race no matter the wind conditions. Great exercise at the least.

Don't knock what doesn't turn you on, we are all having fun in our own way. It's just that a few of you are a bit more enthusiastic about what you think is the best way to have fun and possibly a bit closed minded if someone doesn't agree.

C249
29th May 2008, 07:14 AM
I take issue with it being called windsurfing, it should have its own name so it is not an embarassment to real windsurfers, I think it should be called 'Pump boarding for skinny people' or something.

SQ, lots of people disagree with the unrestricted pumping. But surely it's a long way over the top to say that the Olympic guys, who sail so brilliantly (hell, they could even flat-water loop their IMCOs) and who sail full-time, are not "real windsurfers" when they sail in light winds.

If we followed your line and said that light wind windsurfing wasn't windsurfing, then if Jim Drake and Hoyle Schweitzer and Bert Salisbury (the guy who coined the term "windsurfer") all got together on a Windsurfer (trademark) board in the sort of winds they used to sail in, then they wouldn't be "windsurfing". That doesn't seem right.

It also doesn't seem right that if you were sailing an original Windsurfer (TM) in 25 knots then you wouldn't be "windsurfing"; or if you hit a lull you'd somehow suddenly change from "windsurfing" to "pump boarding for skinny people". I've seen top FW sailors, Naish and Dunkerbeck fall off the plane and pump on their shortboards.....did they suddenly stop windsurfing and move into another sport while that went on? Or is mid-race slogging and pumping on slalom gear "windsurfing", while mid-race slogging and pumping (while going faster) on an RSX is not "windsurfing"?

Other sports don't rob the original version of their name when they develop. Cross country ski racing is IMHO like RSX-ing and different to downhill skiing, but downhillers don't say that it's not real skiing. Modern surfing is different to surfing of the 1930s, but no-one says that the Duke wasn't surfing. Modern F1 is different to that of the '40s, but no one says Fangio wasn't a Formula 1 legend. Modern skiff sailing and ocean racing is different to that of the 1800s and early 1900s, but no-one says the old guys weren't sailors.

steveC
29th May 2008, 11:20 AM
Well, Ken, you might want to be just a bit more cautious in your comments. While I have to agree that racing offers many sailors an advantage using various sailing and tactical techniques in a certain arena and associated situations, I think that one would hard pressed to agree that would help you in all discipines.

Nevertheless, I can't fault you on the position that professional level windsurfers have contributed immensely to the sport as a whole. But, we must remember that the most outstanding achievements in the sport aren't always attributable to racing. If one was to consider how wavesailing, freestyle and speedsailing advancements have affected the development and character of the sport, it becomes all to clear that it's a pretty broad spectrum. Really, one has to admire all round sailors like Kevin and Matt Pritchard, Beorn Dunkerbeck, Robby Naish, and AA (just to mention a few) that have played a multifaceted game that cuts across so many different disciplines. No question that these guys have exhibited an awesome bag of tricks to have performed like they do and gained the recognition they have over time.

Ken
29th May 2008, 10:27 PM
steveC,

I don't think that I implied that racing "would help you in all disciplines". I said:

"There are lots of recreational windsurfers that never know how limited their skills are until they begin to race.". "Racing simply makes you a better sailor because it quickly identifies your weaknesses".

"Racing" includes, Formula, one design, Olympic, slalom, course slalom & longboard.

My experience with our local sailors in north Texas is that when we have our two major local regattas, we have excellent turn outs, but they are mostly recreational sailors. 80% do not travel around the state to race, but they do take part in these two events for the fun and weekend camping experience. Most of these "part time" racers are competent windsurfers, but it's clear that the majority of them lack the skills and techniques to be truly fast and efficient around a course on their boards. Many have difficulty with everything but beam reaching. I think many of them come away from the events with a better understanding of their weaknesses and shortcomings, and I am certain that some will re-focus their efforts to improve on some of their weaker skills.

My comments related to equipment improvements and their relationship to competition suggest that team riders and sponsored riders (almost all involved in competition) are responsible for much of the improvements we see in today's equipment. Their feedback to manufactures regarding what will make the (board, sail, boom, mast, fin) better for their competitions is the reason we have such fantastic gear to choose from. Not all of it is "high performance" gear, but much of the recreational and beginner gear is better today because of the advancements on the high tech side of the sport. Better materials, designs, durability, performance, etc.

I am sure that you compete while you are sailing, just not in regattas. If you and a buddy are sailing side by side and he begins to pull away, I would bet that you would make every effort to stay with him. That's competition and racing in its most basic form.

It's just that some of us just choose to compete in a more structured and formal form - regattas.

Ken

steveC
30th May 2008, 12:52 AM
Ken,

My previous comments were probably a little too pointed. My apologies. Actually, I'm sure you're quite right that racing will reveal your strengths and weaknesses as a sailor pretty quickly, and in addition, I'm also sure that one would ultimately learn much more about of the subtleties of rig and board tuning.

While I've never raced, there's a lot of truth to your comments about adjustments you might make in your sailing style and strategies when sailing with others to advance your performance potential. I find too, that one also begins to use the subtleties in the wind and water conditions to improve one's position. Of course, much of this is informal and unstructured, but we all like come out ahead just for the fun and challenge in it.

Aco
5th June 2008, 02:08 AM
Dear All,

I LOVE my formula boards: they develop incredible SPEED at very low winds, are able of remarkable sailing angles and cover a really wide range of windspeeds.

BUT most of the Spots Worldwide experience NON-Planing conditions most of the time, even for my 73kg of Weight combined with my beloved Formula + 12.5m Sail!

In those conditions I pull out my Serenity + 12.5m Sail and FLY along with my back skimming over the water while the Formulas schlog! Its Fast! And best of all, when the wind picks up I keep the same sail and simply switch to the Formula and continue Flying!

So here is my question:
Why not an Olympic WS class with:
(+) 1 Formula board,
(+) 1 Sail,
(+) 1 Serenity Board?
It could be the same "Formula One Design" kit as proposed by StarBoard with the addition of Serenity.

It would:
(+) still be waaaay more TRANSPORTABLE than any other olympic sailing class,
(+) be Raceable in ANY WIND, from 1 knot up,
(+) be probably still CHEAPER than the current Olympic WS class,
and best of all...
(+) be way FASTER than the current Olympic WS class and probably also all the other olympic classes in ANY CONDITIONS!

If the race should be One-Design, the Organizers could Prescribe the board to be used before the Regatta:
(+) <6 knots...Serenity
(+) >6 knots...Formula

So what do we have to lose?
We would still race Formula all the time when applicable, BUT in non-planing conditions also have a Regatta, a Result and a Medal, all this being probably the fastest class all the time!

I am very interested in your opinions.
With Kind Regards,
Aco

Unregistered
5th June 2008, 02:34 AM
I like Aco's idea too.
Although I would suggest a formula, a serenity (or similar), and a 10-10.5 sail. Racing from 3 -25 knots. Make the fin switchable to reduce costs. Let the rider decide what to sail formula or serenity.
Formula One Design is a great idea but lacking on the lower wind racing that is very common.
Formula 31 lacks this low wind component as well and it is much more expensive.

Formula 12 (1 sail 2 boards)

steveC
5th June 2008, 02:49 AM
Hi Aco,

If all goes well, I anticipate receiving my Serenity in a few weeks. While I never have used a board like a Serenity, I'm looking forward to leveraging the kind of performance that it offers.

Regarding your proposal to add the Serenity to augment Starboard's 2012 formula proposal, I think that it's an outstanding solution. Not only would it broaden the wind range where racing could be successfully played out, it would ultimately improve the capability and experience of the athletes involved. And as a real plus, the need for all the air rowing pumping stuff would be kept to a minimum.

Great job!

James
5th June 2008, 12:43 PM
There are basically four types of windsurf boards that one could consider for an Olympic one-design class:

1) A pure displacement board, like the Serenity
2) A compromise board that leans towards displacement, like the MOD
3) A compromise board that leans towards planing, like the RSX
4) A pure planing board, like the FOD

Like Aco and SteveC say, if you could choose any TWO boards it would make the most sense to choose #1 and #4.

Of course, while two boards might be great for a non-Olympic class, I am virtually certain that the Olympic committee will never allow it. Not to mention the fact that international travel with a 450 cm long board AND a 100 cm wide board would be a nightmare.

That leaves a choice of just one board from options 1-4. A pure displacement board wouldn't provide the high performance in moderate to strong winds that people expect from windsurfing, so we can probably eliminate option 1. Between longboards and hybrids, the former are clearly better in light winds, and with 9.5 rigs are just as good as hybrids in strong winds, too! That eliminates wide hybrids from the running and narrows the choice to longboard or formula. They both have their pros and cons, but I think either would be a good Olympic class. To decide between them, the committee should ask itself this question: Which is more important- reducing "air rowing" or insuring a result at all regattas?

MarcCasaldaliga
5th June 2008, 04:02 PM
Hi Aco and James,

I've been thinking for a while about the an all wind windsurf class and also came to the conclusion than a serenity+formula board+1rig would be the winning choice:

(http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3493
my original idea was for a high wind or small formula for a confortable ride in high winds, but that's another topic)

But as James points out traveling with BOTH a crazy wide and crazy long boards would be a nightmare (not only in international flights)
My solution for that was a 2 PART serenity. Two parts that once stored in a special bag could be moreless of the same height and than the formula.

Being a displacement hull the extra weight for the 2 part attachment wouldn't be so important. I also have thought on a detailed concept on how to made such attachment

What do you think of that solution

Best regards

Marc

Aco
5th June 2008, 06:40 PM
Of course, while two boards might be great for a non-Olympic class, I am virtually certain that the Olympic committee will never allow it.
I am far from being an Olympic expert, but my question is simply...Why not?

If the Olympic Committee prescribes the board for the Regatta (or for the entire day) according to the Forecast and the current conditions, the race remains One-Design, and a pretty fast (if not fastest) one at that.

Not to mention the fact that international travel with a 450 cm long board AND a 100 cm wide board would be a nightmare.
A nightmare?
How could then travelling with a 49er or a Star be described ;)
I believe it would still be by far the easiet Olympic sailing class to Travel with..

It seems to me that a 2-Boards-1-Sail WS sailing class has hardly any disadvantage compared to ANY other Olympic sailing class:
(+) Most Easy to Transport
(+) Fastest in ANY conditions
(+) Cheapest

What more could you pretend ;)
All the Best,
Aco

steveC
6th June 2008, 12:51 AM
Without a doubt, I still think Aco is right on target, but the package would definitely be improved by Marc's two piece Serenity concept.

My biggest dilemma with the Serenity is that it is incredibly long. While I've bit the bullet anyway despite the storage and transportation difficulties I face, the two piece Serenity would totally alleviate the problem. I know that I would pay a premium for the two piece concept in spite of the added weight factor. Really though, I think that if the concept was engineered and built using carbon fiber interfaces, I don't think the added weight would be that significant.

I believe that if Starboard tapped into the design engineering expertise that someone like boogie has, the outcome would likely be outstanding. Of course, Marc's ideas about this could very well be worth considering too. I've seen two piece surfboards (longboard) in the past, so the idea is not really farfetched. Given the larger bearing surfaces that a two piece Serenity would offer, I'm thinking that the design interfaces, in contrast to much thinner surfboard, would not be as difficult to realize.

Unregistered
6th June 2008, 08:00 PM
Funny, I was looking for a place to post the 2 boards idea. never seen the board, but if it's working in 4-8 knts it could work together with a light (7kg) 85/90 cm board. Using a super deep 10m2 this could work with only 1 sail. Still, we talk about WIND surfing and the senerty or any non-planing board should not represent windsurfing other then a substitude board.

A 85cm is used in the current PWA racing and is representing modern windsurfing fully.

The low-wind board can be given on site to the competitors. It may be heavy too, as long as it's not planing anyway.

Adri

Joe
6th June 2008, 10:19 PM
Round & round we go.

It always amazes me that windsurfers always end up focusing on the "pros" and then complain later that there is no grass roots or growth to the sport.

Who cares about air travel and the pros getting gear to races!
Focus on the grass roots. What almost killed windsurfing was a focus on high wind/ hoopika windsurfing that the grass roots will never experience.

I think that the 2 boards and 1 sail is a brilliant idea. Racing/practicing/recreational sailing could be peformed anywhere in the world on a very high percentage of days at or near the highest performance level. This is exactly what windsurfing needs.

The travel details will work themselves out in the end.

Aco
7th June 2008, 12:06 AM
Hi Marc!
But as James points out traveling with BOTH a crazy wide and crazy long boards would be a nightmare (not only in international flights)
My solution for that was a 2 PART serenity. Two parts that once stored in a special bag could be moreless of the same height and than the formula.
...
What do you think of that solution
I agree with you that such a solution would be a big advantage for travelling.
When I purchased the Serenity I thought about an even more exotic solution with 2 different Halves:

(+) the FRONT-HALF (e.g. ahead of the Mast Track, because it doesn't withstand any significant Loads) could be HOLLOW in order to slide the Back-Half inside and save space even further when Travelling / Storing
(+) the BACK-HALF could be Foam-Filled in order to assure Floatability if the front Half tears

For additional safety, an optional multi-Compartment Air-inflatable bag could be inserted in the HOLLOW FRONT-HALF while sailing in order to improve floatability in the case of Cracks / Tearing.

Anyway, even with a 1-piece Serenity the class would still be the most Transportable Olympic Class, as stated above.
Aco

James
7th June 2008, 01:22 AM
2 boards, 2 pieces = 2 complicated, IMHO. :)

AlexWind
7th June 2008, 01:44 AM
Great initiative!
Totally agree with Starboard!
Go boys go!

C249
7th June 2008, 05:44 AM
Funny, some of us have been proposing a similar idea for many years, but until a manufacturer's name was stuck to the concept no-one else was interested! :-)

After all, this is basically what the Tour de France windsurfing or the old Amateur Funboard World Championships (later F42) did 20 years ago - and it was great!

The Serenity is a great board (whether it's better than a Div 2 I don't know) but as Joe says, we may need something to appeal to the average sailor; you don't get much of a peak without a foundation. The Serenity is not something that the average sailor (even the many longboard racers who still make up most of the race fleets in many or most areas) can relate to. Maybe a flatter board that will still plane (more like a modern Mistral Superlight) would be better. Same with the shortboard; an 85cm wide board is much closer to the sort of gear that most people sail, and if we have a longboard we don't need a board that can plane early.

The longboard could be a strict one design whiteboard, with a fleet or two supplied by the manufacturer to ISAF or for major regattas. Sailors wouldn't have to fly their longboards everywhere, they could just pick one up at the regatta. The shortboard could be any production slalom board, to satisfy those who don't want one-designs.

James, IMHO the solution to air rowing could be fairly simple - ban it!! The on-course judging works pretty well in classes like Lasers, and these days there are small video cameras that can be used to provide proof of the judges' calls. Plus, we now have many hot-shot retired racers who are good enough to be judges.

Unregistered, about "Still, we talk about WIND surfing and the senerty or any non-planing board should not represent windsurfing other then a substitude board."

One knot of wind, four knots, 26 knots - whatever the strength, moving air is still wind. That's a simple fact. So anytime a board is sailing in moving air, it's a WINDsurfer.

Formula board and Serenity boards don't sail in surf (ie breaking waves). So they never sail in surf - so then why call them windSURFers?

Schweitzer and Salisbury and Drake called it "windsurfing" when you were standing on a big long board in light winds - don't the people who created the sport and term know what it means?

fattyfattybonbon
7th June 2008, 01:14 PM
If I may, I believe that the idea would be unfeasible and rathhttp://www.star-board.com/forum/images/icons/icon2.gif
Arrower too complicated for one's liking. Imagine that the ap flag has been dropped (warning signal for racing) and you head out towards the starting area. The wind picks up and you are still standing on your serenity board. With around 3 minutes until the first race begins, decisions race into your head.

Do I head back into shore to change into my formula one design board or do I stick with the serenity. One board is more compatible and less of a hassle when racing.

Comments saying that it would still be the cheapest out of all the sailing classes to transport around is another way of saying that the cost does not matter, as long as it is under the threshold of other classes. It would still be expensive. Full stop.

I hope that the rs:x stays on for 2012 and perhaps the olympics after that, as it represents the olympic spirit of fighting and fitness. If formula board was introduced, then only the competitors that could plane the earliest would excel- (the lightest sailors in the light winds). It would mean technique over fitness and endurance. oO. The whole point of an olympic event is to introduce tight competition and 'survival of the fittest' comes into place.

Another point- does the formula board maintain high performance in strong winds with its ultra wide surface area? In choppy conditions it would be virtually unsailable. The RS:X was designed to compromise with light winds and strong winds and works- a win: win situation.

What is wrong with it?

Aco
7th June 2008, 04:06 PM
If I may, I believe that the idea would be unfeasible and rather too complicated for one's liking. Imagine that the ap flag has been dropped (warning signal for racing) and you head out towards the starting area. The wind picks up and you are still standing on your serenity board. With around 3 minutes until the first race begins, decisions race into your head.
Do I head back into shore to change into my formula one design board or do I stick with the serenity.
I believe this dilemma could be resolved simply by letting the Comittee decide (on the basis of the forecast and/or conditions) which board should be used for the Regatta (or half the day, or the entire day, whatever is more convenient).

This makes your dilemma above a non-issue: you stay on the Serenity, because for this Regatta (or entire day?) the Committee has decided that there is not enough wind to be expected for the Formula and the Serenity should be used.

You have nothing to worry about because everybody will be on the Serenity. If the Serenity handles moderate winds + 12.5m2 sail without major problems for me, then for an Olympian + 11m2 sail it should be a non-issue.

One board is more compatible and less of a hassle when racing.
Comments saying that it would still be the cheapest out of all the sailing classes to transport around is another way of saying that the cost does not matter, as long as it is under the threshold of other classes. It would still be expensive. Full stop.
I agree with you:
with 2 boards we are trading Transportability and Cost for Performance.

If the former are more important to the competitors, then the RSX is just fine, a High-Pefrormance Longboard (Phantom Race?) probably even better.

I just like performance and thus put it above all other criteria, which is why the 2-board solutions seems so appealing to me.
I hope that the rs:x stays on for 2012 and perhaps the olympics after that, as it represents the olympic spirit of fighting and fitness.
...
What is wrong with it?
If the Olympic WS sailors like it, then there is nothing wrong.

I just like performance as stated above and believe that racing would be more thrilling if you always had the highest-performance craft under your feet.

Just my 2 cents.
All the Best,
Aco

C249
7th June 2008, 04:42 PM
FattyBB, fitness and endurance are only part of the Olympic spirit according to the IOC itself. The first of all the "Fundamental Principles of Olympism" from the Olympic Charter says that "Olympism is a philosophy of life, exalting and combining in a balanced whole the qualities of body, will and mind." So according to the IOC's first and most basic tenet, mind (ie technique) is as important as body and will.

It's interesting to look at the report of the committee that chose the last Olympic board. They wanted "to re-establish windsurfing as a mainstream, popular racing discipline for youth and adult sailing throughout the world" and "to re-unite the windsurfing community, so that all windsurfers will regard the Olympic regatta as the pinnacle event in windsurfing". The boat was supposed to inspire kids (maybe the T293's success proves the RSX works for that) and to be "consistent with mainstream windsurfing as it is performed worldwide."

A hybrid, Serenity (or Div 2 board) and a Formula board all fail pretty much all of these criteria.

Aco, you may like performance (and that's cool) but most people who race under sail do so in pretty slow gear. FW is pretty damn quick but it's also not really very popular, so it seems that many (most?) windsurfer racers also feel that sheer speed is not the main requirement.

fattyfattybonbon
7th June 2008, 06:25 PM
That is all very well, but what about strong wind performance.

The formula board claims that it can plane really early in as little as 6 knots, but once it surpasses 15 knots, its performance deteriorates almost instantly. It starts to waver and control gets out of hand. Also, the formula board is harder to pump.

As an avid RS:X racer myself, I believe that we should just stick to the RS:X equipment. Yes, it is more strenuous work and more expensive, but think of the races which involve tactical thinking and strategy.

Some opinions on this please!
Best Regards
FFBB

steveC
8th June 2008, 01:26 AM
Regarding the RS:X, if it wasn't picked as the Olympic OD, how many folks would actually buy it? I would think that it would attract even fewer folks than formula, if any at all. At least with formula equipment, there are many folks out there that sail the stuff for fun outside of a racing focus.

With respect to earlier comments about formula biasing those with a particular body type, that could be true, but that can be said about many of the sports in the Olympics. How many big gymnists do you see, and how many lightweight shot-put contestants does one see. I could go on and on, but I think one can understand that many Olympic sports favor certain body types.

C249
8th June 2008, 03:10 PM
Yes, but in sailing you can change the optimum body type just by changing the class rules or the wind conditions.

fattyfattybonbon
8th June 2008, 04:16 PM
Besides, Formula does not represent the majority of windsurfers. Your biggest argument is earlier planing and suiting the body weight of the majority of windsurfers. By windsurfers you probably mean heavy and tall muscular windsurfers and that the current RS:X class is more suited towards lighter sailors in light winds and heavier sailors in the stronger winds. This is why it is interesting to see how consistent the windsurfers need to be to fare well in the competition.

True, early planing does look more appealing the the media and audience on shore, but what about those who can't plane do to their technique/ posture...e.t.c. The competition would be down to those who can get on the plane the earliest and the racing would not be as close as it currently is.

50%+ of races in regattas take place in under 6 knots of winds, and to meet the threshold of racing would mean more waiting...waiting..waiting and more waiting!

Steve C, your earlier comment about how the norm do not own RS:X boards, for freesailing or what have you. But the feeder class- the techno 293 is all about it! Furthermore, what about the current RS:X sailors. The transition would get difficult to get used to and only the formula sailors would benefit the most.

As always, I open to any suggestions on this
Cheers,
FattyFattyBonBon

AlexWind
8th June 2008, 06:24 PM
Well even in FW in light winds lightsailors have some advantage and heavy in medium and stronger have a plus but limiting the sails size there'll be more competition in medium-high winds..

About the perchentage of regattas taken in <6knots winds it depends on the place where they're taken.. It seams to me fat to much 50%+...

Unregistered
8th June 2008, 10:06 PM
Just tested out the Serenity, that thing is off the hook!!! forget formula put the serenity forward as an Olympic option a great board for tactical sailing applications and would be a excellent test of skill in 15 knots +

steveC
9th June 2008, 01:22 AM
I think that FattyFattyBonBon's comment that better than 50% of the racing occurs at less than 6 knots really makes the case for use of a second board (Serenity), as Aco has advocated. Really, a great idea.

The two board solution could mix outcomes favoring light versus heavy sailors depending on wind strengths during racing, but it just might benefit the medium weight sailor overall, especially if the mixture of athletic and tactical strengths and skills were keenly developed. Also I think, the modest sized OD sail would tend to balance things more towards the center.

But there's no getting around the fact that the wind conditions could ultimately influence outcomes. I guess things really depend on how many races are run over a period of time to determine the medal outcome. But, the Olympic moment(s) is one of the classic features of the games. You got to be able to do it all in the conditions and timeframe specified. Although a given sailor might be the best rated sailor in the lightest of winds, that sailor may not come out on top if all the racing is run in strong winds. A victim of circumstances? Yes, that could be rationalized, but I doubt that it would find traction in the Olympic arena.

Lastly, concerning FattyFattyBonBon's reservations about how changing the equipment could ultimately disadvantage RS:X sailors, it must be remembered that the next Olympics is 4 years away in 2012. In my mind, that's a considerable period of time to develop and hone the needed skills. In reality, I wonder if the Olympic competitors from 2004 feel shortchanged with the introduction of the RS:X, but does it really matter? Furthermore, the idea that a competitor should be able to come back and compete in multiple Olympics over time, shouldn't be rooted in a unchanging world, but rather one that like real life, where change is a paramount factor that we all have to deal with and hopefully thrive.

Remi
15th June 2008, 09:43 PM
Hi All,

FWOD presentation with the stiff alloy boom at the Star-Board meeting who distributors try the equipment. Please found below the photos.

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/637/img5240mj4.th.jpg (http://img367.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img5240mj4.jpg)

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1725/img5323cu8.th.jpg (http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img5323cu8.jpg)

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/9128/img5399yu3.th.jpg (http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img5399yu3.jpg)

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6341/img5369ow7.th.jpg (http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img5369ow7.jpg)

All the best

sergio k
17th June 2008, 03:51 AM
Judging by latest race report, Allison Shreeve is proving that proposed format works
really well, (conditions 4- 40knots), and she did great even in super light
conditions agains guys who can plane on a wisper with latest custom fins and jumbo sails:
I'm for one is impressed, check it out:
http://www.miamiwindsurfing.com/usaformula.html

Ken
17th June 2008, 08:46 PM
Fattyfattybonbon,

You said -

"The formula board claims that it can plane really early in as little as 6 knots, but once it surpasses 15 knots, its performance deteriorates almost instantly. It starts to waver and control gets out of hand. Also, the formula board is harder to pump."

I can't let this go without a comment. Either you have never sailed formula or at best, very little. NOTHING can stay with a formula board in 15 to 25 knots (upwind and downwind). Performance does not deteriorate above 15 knots, it just gets more exciting. The amount of "waver" and "control" depends on the skill of the sailor. Beginners and novices on Formula will have problems when the wind picks up, but not the experienced sailor. You just have to practice, you know - TOW.

Pumping is extremely effective on Formula. With the wide board and 70cm fin, pumping on plane in winds under 10 knots isn't hard and once on plane in 10 knots of wind, reaching 18-20 knots of board speed isn't out of the question.

In regards to what should be the Olympic board - I have mixed feelings so I am not taking a side. I love formula, but trying to race formula in 6 to 8 knots will only work well for the lightest sailors, which is also true for the hybrid boards. As the wind picks up, the the heavyweights may have an advantage. No way around this.

I have raced formula in 6-9 knots where only a third of the fleet was able to plane around the course, with the majority slogging or not able to make much of a gain upwind. Good for me since I am on the lightweight side (79kg), but bad for the heavyweights.

Ken

MarcCasaldaliga
17th June 2008, 11:04 PM
Hi Sergio

was Allison using the women 9.5m2 in the light day, or 11m2 men's rig? If it was on the 9.5m2 it would mean a lot about Allison and FWOD concept.

I am also intrigued by the race course shape.

"windward leeward/M slalom course on the outer loop"

is it M slalom part very often used? From my ignorance I would say that would be useful in very light winds to avoid loose planing in deep deep downwind run. Is this its purpose?
But it must be crazy in high winds, mustn't it? In the reaching slalom legs one must be very very overpowered. Am I right?

Best regards

Marc

Judging by latest race report, Allison Shreeve is proving that proposed format works
really well, (conditions 4- 40knots), and she did great even in super light
conditions agains guys who can plane on a wisper with latest custom fins and jumbo sails:
I'm for one is impressed, check it out:
http://www.miamiwindsurfing.com/usaformula.html

Morrone
18th June 2008, 04:45 AM
Hi all,

Last week I was in Thailand and had the chance to test the FOD in different conditions.

Every piece of the equipment is working really well, but the most impressive surprise is the alloy boom. It's really stiff with the 11.0 sail and just the boom by itself could bring a totally new breath for the FW and FE classes. At the end of the first day I had to ask Remi if that boom was the FOD alloy boom or a carbon version. Actually there is no carbon version, that stiff boom is the FOD alloy boom!!

The FW 162 board is already known by most Formula sailors. For sure it's the easiest Starboard FW board to sail fast.

The sail is very easy to rig and works in a huge range. I tested the FOD 3 days: 7-10 knots at the first day, 13-16 on the second day and up to 20 knots at the third day (6.0s and smaller iSonics and Futuras planning everywhere).

The kit worked fine in all conditions (I'm 82 kg) and I have no doubt that the FOD is clearly a great solution for racing.

Unregistered
18th June 2008, 09:57 PM
Marc, I wasn't there but here's a quote from latest detail report:
"She did extremely well using the 9.5m womens rig and the 11m mens rig, depending on the conditions and a second non-kit fin all within the formula rules but not keeping to the One Design format against the more open formula fleet."

Very interesting, and it sort off, makes me think again, that with a second fin ( not much
extra cost or storage space) one can really help to impove the range, would be nice to have an option of a 2nd sail but that might be too much to ask from 'one design' concept .

Hopefully Allisson will jump on the forum and gives her own feed back soon

Hi Sergio

was Allison using the women 9.5m2 in the light day, or 11m2 men's rig? If it was on the 9.5m2 it would mean a lot about Allison and FWOD concept.

I am also intrigued by the race course shape.

"windward leeward/M slalom course on the outer loop"

is it M slalom part very often used? From my ignorance I would say that would be useful in very light winds to avoid loose planing in deep deep downwind run. Is this its purpose?
But it must be crazy in high winds, mustn't it? In the reaching slalom legs one must be very very overpowered. Am I right?

Best regards

Marc

Unregistered
19th June 2008, 05:58 AM
way overpowered beam reaching a 70 cm fin

MarcCasaldaliga
19th June 2008, 06:06 PM
Hi all, thanks unregistered for the clarification:

in second report of US WINDSURFING NATIONALS things come a little more clear:
"She did extremely well using the 9.5m womens rig and the 11m mens rig, depending on the conditions and a second non-kit fin all within the formula rules but not keeping to the One Design format against the more open formula fleet."

BUT, if she needed to use the 11m2 men's rig in lightwinds, that's cheating!
I mean, it is misleading information saying that she was succesful in any condition with FWOD. Women FWOD is only 9.5m2! I quote The suspicous statement:

"Following pack up Allison held a presentation of the Formula Windsurfing One Design equipment on the beach where most of the racers attended. Many technical questions were asked, but most of all people were pleased with the performance of the equipment from 4-40knots of wind with one kit. "
http://www.miamiwindsurfing.com/usaformula.html

The achievement of overal 3rd (great!) then is due to Allison skills and not to strict FWOD!

IMHO, I think one should be more careful with that kind of misleading or partial statements, specially when 1 rig solution is underdiscussion.

Best regards

Marc

Unregistered
19th June 2008, 07:30 PM
I dont see any issue with Allison using 2 rigs. What she has shown is that the FOD equipment is competitive in an open formula fleet. Does it matter she used two rigs, she is a lightweight sailor, I am certain the other sailors (possibly even heavier) used multiple rigs too!

I am sure that the sails would not have been as comfy as the full on formula sails, but that was never implied. These sails have always been marketed as compromise sails, with extended range at the expense of not being the absolutely optimal foils for given windspeeds.

Starboard appear to have shown that the FOD gear that can work within a normal Formula fleet.

Good for them,

JB

Unregistered
19th June 2008, 08:23 PM
I think, to be honest, She would use only the 9.5 rig to show the kit works in light winds or not. That's the problem. I think She wouldn't be planning in very light winds with the 9.5.
One thing is: The FOD works well with 2 rigs and 1 fin with the "open" formula kits, other thing is: The FOD kit works with the 9.5 rig in 6 knots, for woman. I don't think it works with the 9.5 in light winds.

sergio k
19th June 2008, 09:58 PM
I think, to be honest, She would use only the 9.5 rig to show the kit works in light winds or not. That's the problem. I think She wouldn't be planning in very light winds with the 9.5.
One thing is: The FOD works well with 2 rigs and 1 fin with the "open" formula kits, other thing is: The FOD kit works with the 9.5 rig in 6 knots, for woman. I don't think it works with the 9.5 in light winds.

Actually, if you got the skills and you're light <160 lb, you can plane with 9.5 in 6 knots,
I do it all the time,
what supprised me (and would've being amazing!) that she won against guys on 12m sails on her 9.5 m2 ( Fernando, aspecially, is super efficient in light winds with 11.8m),
but her using 11m cleares that up...
SB never said that the rig would be faster against FULL ON formula class,
but planning in light winds is definetly a FACT of life. Results do show that
FOD is very effective but a compromise against formula fleet

Unregistered
20th June 2008, 05:38 AM
But if she used two sails, when the concept is for the use of just one sail, then her performance was not "proving that proposed format works really well".

The fact that she had the OD gear there but chose to sail it outside of the one-sail format may actually imply that the one-sail format doesn't work.

Remi
20th June 2008, 06:26 PM
Hi All,

To have the best performances she take sometimes the 11m against racers who use the full FW equipment. The 9,5 works but to compare to full FW sails, it's simply a bit behind but works. That will beter an event who all have the same FOD equipment.

All the best

DMal
25th August 2008, 12:24 PM
So, after Beijing, what does everyone think about the Olympic windsurfing equipment? The RS:X seemed to provide great racing in the wind seen during that regatta. I have a had time seeing the ISAF changing the board after only one Olympic cycle that appeared to be successful.

I'm not saying that the FOD would not provide a successful regatta, but how do you convince the ISAF to implement it after Beijing?

Remi
25th August 2008, 02:19 PM
Hi DMal,

Their will be a demonstration for the ISAF at the Formula Windsurfing World in Portimao.

Price is really low to make it more accessible and durable.

All the best

Unregistered
26th August 2008, 01:17 PM
go to http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4359 for more info

MantasLTU13
27th August 2008, 11:52 AM
There were some debates about numbers in FW. You can check this year FW EU championships in Poland. There were 130 competitors, about 23 Youth and 9 women. And this is independent class from Olympics, I can only imagine the numbers if FW was Olympic class. I think it would be something like double or triple the number of competitors, because current RS:X people will join this fleet and new people would definitely come to Olympic class. I think if FOD will replace RS:X then we will see really interesting windsurfing and maybe something like old times when there was over 400 competitors in the worlds.
And one more argument against current RS:X if you drop it from Olympics I know than nobody will sail it and this class will die instantly. Because it is something that is not natural it came forcibly without natural evolution not like all other classes. Look there is still some of MOD out there sailing I doubt that we will see RS:X in this manner.

Unregistered
27th August 2008, 05:39 PM
What other class has actually grown when it went Olympic?

Lots of the dinghy classes have died out (in terms of having widespread fleets) after becoming Olympic, or become much smaller. The Olympic dinghy classes normally get fewer boats racing than similar non-Olympic boats.

Remember when they said that the RSX would get huge fleets because it would get the FW sailors and the IMCO sailors together?

Why risk hurting FW?

DMal
27th August 2008, 10:42 PM
What other class has actually grown when it went Olympic?

Lots of the dinghy classes have died out (in terms of having widespread fleets) after becoming Olympic, or become much smaller. The Olympic dinghy classes normally get fewer boats racing than similar non-Olympic boats.

Remember when they said that the RSX would get huge fleets because it would get the FW sailors and the IMCO sailors together?

Why risk hurting FW?

I'm not sure it would hurt FW. FW is more comparable to the Laser and Radial, which had such a large recreational and racing usership that fleets actually grew when the boats became Olympic.

With FW, you have an established racing class with many recreational sailors as well. People will only drop off FW if something better comes along, but not in its current state of popularity simply due to making it Olympic.

Unregistered
28th August 2008, 12:10 AM
Unless another class emerges that is faster around the race course Formula won't die. In 8 knots and above there is nothing (windsurfer wise) faster around the race course, so I don't see the enthusiasm diminishing on the FW circuit. People will always want to sail the fastest stuff. Longboard enthusiasm died out because of that fact. Formula one design is currently the closest one design class to the ultimate race class (FW). As long as it is that way, it should be very popular and not kill FW.

Unregistered
28th August 2008, 06:09 PM
DMal, where I am, the number of Laser sailors in the 18-35 year age bracket (ie those who have to compete with the Olympians) has dropped dramatically over the years. My understanding is that in that age group, you are not competitive unless you are a full time Olympian. It has been made up by a surge in juniors and in Masters, where the heat of Olympic pros is not a factor.

I have some old newsletters from pre-Olympic times, and the change in the makeup of the fleet is spectacular.

Division 2 boards and Raceboards had established fleets when they became Olympic, too....

Unregistered
28th August 2008, 07:31 PM
What other class has actually grown when it went Olympic?

Lots of the dinghy classes have died out (in terms of having widespread fleets) after becoming Olympic, or become much smaller. The Olympic dinghy classes normally get fewer boats racing than similar non-Olympic boats.

Remember when they said that the RSX would get huge fleets because it would get the FW sailors and the IMCO sailors together?

Why risk hurting FW?

49er grew with Olympic selection; Laser is definitely growing at the moment I would guess including the radial rig version - both olympic specific developments from existing fleets; without olympics neither would exist.

There are lots of reasons why things grow and die; being an olympic class need not be the kiss of death; choosing a board a little too early in the design process (RSX), making it uneccessarily high tech and then over priced (RSX), launching it with a rather average rig and design issues that had to be addressed (RSX) and then not letting anyone buy it who isn't campaigning for Olympics (RSX) would seem to be good reasons to make a class die if it is no longer the Olympic class.

I am still a fan of the 4 year cycle update similar to the 2 years formula cycle update; goes to a panel each time in the olympic year, and then the selection is made for the following olympics based on prevailing winds, best technology and to a brief created by the industry for a OD 4 year cycle board that meets a certain price point, can hold racing in 3-30 knots, has ideally 1 rig, is reliable, has solid worldwide distribution, ideally fits within an existing rule, etc etc.

The IMCO shows what happens if you play with evolution.

I just don't see how formula would suddenly die if you started allowing a single formula board into the olympics. I don't see the longboard proponents suggesting that the IMCO caused longboarding to die; if anything that was the only lifeline keeping them alive in racing for a large part of the world until the recent resurgence; and the resurgence of non pumping OD longboards like the Kona don't have too much to do with the IMCO and RSX type boards anyhow, and yet have if anything gained from the efforts the industry put in (Exocet included) in creating the holy grail of the 3-30 knot racer which led to the Kona in some respects.

Why the industry should base itself on the boat building industry which doesn't have nearly the level of cost effective innovation in it I have no idea. We are more similar to the snowboard industry; I don't see anyone still racing GS in soft boots on a burton backcountry when they could be rocking a Kessler with Hangl plate.

Unregistered
29th August 2008, 03:05 PM
"49er grew with Olympic selection"

Well, the class wasn't launched before it was selected; but are there many places where it is the most popular skiff type? I know of nowhere that has other skiff types where the 9er is the most popular, despite its strengths.

"Laser is definitely growing at the moment"

Yes, but in one of its biggest, strongest areas (at least) that growth has been in kids, women and Masters, and the number of men in the "Olympic" age group has dropped; last time I checked, the 18-35 had gone from 75% to 25% of the 'big rig" fleet, and the big rig fleet itself has dropped. And the Laser had massive fleets before it went Olympic; much bigger than any board class has these days.

"I would guess including the radial rig version - both olympic specific developments from existing fleets; without olympics neither would exist."

Sorry, that's wrong. The 49er was NOT designed for the Olympics. The Radial was NOT designed for the Olympics. I've interviewed 3 of the 5 figures involved in the 49er's conception (Frank, Julian, Peter J but not Dave O or Otani), and all three of those who created the Laser and Radial (Hans, Bruce K, Ian B) about the conception of the classes.

IMCO is interesting. Sure, it may have helped keep longboards going, although D2 died when the Lechner was selected.

On the other hand, at the end of the IMCO's Olympic days, there were only two (limited) production longboards in the world. The IMCO ended its Olympics in 2004; in 2005, the Kona One started the regrowth and now there's about a dozen longboards with centreboards in production. The fact that the regrowth started straight after the IMCO got dumped may indicate that the IMCO may not have kept longboards alive.

BTW we can produce new boards but can we produce classes that quickly?

I'm not saying the above conclusions are necessarily accurate (at least some of the facts definitely are) but shouldn't this stuff be put up for consideration?

Unregistered
29th August 2008, 05:26 PM
"49er grew with Olympic selection"

Well, the class wasn't launched before it was selected; but are there many places where it is the most popular skiff type? I know of nowhere that has other skiff types where the 9er is the most popular, despite its strengths.

Yes, but in one of its biggest, strongest areas (at least) that growth has been in kids, women and Masters, and the number of men in the "Olympic" age group has dropped; last time I checked, the 18-35 had gone from 75% to 25% of the 'big rig" fleet, and the big rig fleet itself has dropped.

"I would guess including the radial rig version - both olympic specific developments from existing fleets; without olympics neither would exist."

Sorry, that's wrong. The 49er was NOT designed for the Olympics. The Radial was NOT designed for the Olympics. I've interviewed 3 of the 5 figures involved in the 49er's conception (Frank, Julian, Peter J but not Dave O or Otani), and all three of those who created the Laser and Radial (Hans, Bruce K, Ian B) about the conception of the classes.


So your hypothesis is the olympics are the kiss of death, a popular feeling. Probably not always supported by statistics; I still stand by my statement, the 49er grew with olympic selection, I reckon it would be far fewer without the chance of olympic glory since you could have joined an existing class e.g. R Class, 14, 12, 16,18, cherub, javelin, etc etc in many places; the olympics and selection as a class for national authorities is what gave them a shunt. The 29er has the same thing, with being selected by many national authorities. Incidentally, the comment of 'I see no where where the 49er is the most popular' has not too much relevance since i never suggested it was the most popular; it is however a class with a few hundred sailors worldwide though is it not with worldwide status?

Selection by govt or yachting associations is very similar to the olympic selection in that suddenly a bunch of vessels are often bought by the tax payers in some way, and then people have an OD fleet and a reason to sail that boat rather than others.

As for laser radial rigs thanks for the correction, I had not heard of it; in fact i never saw girls sailing lasers, I saw them sailing europes (in NZ anyhow). Yes, Laser sailing is suffering a bit because of the new blood coming in and sailing at a much higher level, that is what can damage a fleet no doubt if you start sailing and not being able to win anymore; M24 fleet has a corinthian division for the non pros (and let's face it, guys like Ainsley, Hamish Pepper, Rohan Lord etc they are professionals) so maybe lasers need that as well?

So you are saying if there was no IMCO from the early 90s and no longboarding in the olympics that longboarding would be healthier than it is now? That's a big call Chris! I know you tend to believe that: OD is the cheapest way to go, olympics kill classes, speed kills classes - but if the IMCO wasn't in the olympics would anyone have kept making or sailing them at all?

The Kona should be an infinitely better board for the market it is targeting than the IMCO was; and it should be, it has more than 10 years worth of improvement time. If anything, IMHO the growth in longboards has been a carry over from all the other innovations in windsurfing that pushed people back towards low wind sailing on the wide boards; after taking that to 1m wide huge rig boards, people started looking at how to push the lower limit even further and into subplaning, partly as a result of olympic selection as well.

That has occurred with the board brands and it has somewhat occured with consumers. There are still a ton of windsurfers who have no interest in racing, and there are still a ton who have no interest in longboards (and if for someone who doesn't like racing, there is a good chance they will never be interested).

BTW I have checked, it is the phantom 380 longboard that I liked; the one I think in production. Great board. Ok fun in wind, great fun in the 4-8 knot range where formula sucks - I would never get one except to race, but would make a fun race board I think, a lot more fun than the few seconds I had on an RSX!

Unregistered
29th August 2008, 07:03 PM
I never said that the IMCO killed longboards, but the fact that longboards almost died while the IMCO was in the Games, and then revived very soon after, is interesting. Sure, it could be just coincidence, but are we sure?

Like a lot of these sort of discussions, maybe all that's demonstrated is how complex it all is? I stuff it up by coming across as if I know the answers, but a lot of the time the whole point is that maybe none of us do.

Stats on other Olympic classes are interesting; I have in the past checked them for France and Germany. You may be right, I may be coming from an Anglo-Saxon viewpoint and can be forgetting that some of the Olympic classes are (sometimes due to official policies) quite popular in some areas.

BTW in places the only places that had existing indigenous production skiff types (UK and Aus) the 49er is less popular than the B14, its older, slower, smaller, non-Olympic stablemate. But yes, it did get into other areas because of its status.

The thing that often gets me is that this is probably the sort of thing that should be formally and openly studied by ISAF.

Ricko
30th August 2008, 06:15 AM
I will say this again.....If you want to race in 0-25 Knots plenty of tactics and no pumping needed, bring back the Division 1 board MISTRAL SUPERLIGHT length 380cm width 68cm volume 260 liters WEIGHT 16 kgs it had a 6.3m2 sail and thats all it needed, ofcourse you could modenise the sail if you like. I would be more than happy to race again with this board. If anyone wants a photo I can send you one.

Remi
30th August 2008, 07:19 PM
Hi Al,

Please note that the wind ISAF policy is 6 to 25 knots for windsurf.

All the best

Unregistered
2nd September 2008, 09:32 AM
Starboard Crew

Will the Starboard One Design Class remain if not selected for London? for example raced as a division inside Formula on the same start line.

As someone who already races the RS: X this would be a great opportunity (one set of equipment) to race in the Formula Class without investing in the amount of equipment necessary to be seriously competitive in the class.

Realistically the Starboard One Design will not be as fast as top line Formula gear but I cant see it being to far off (same ball park when compared with RS: X vs Formula) raced well I am sure the concept will work.

Thanks

Unregistered
5th September 2008, 08:43 AM
Any progress with the above question?

Tiesda You
5th September 2008, 12:03 PM
Hi unregisterered,

Thanks for your post and the interesting question. It's a bit too early right now to consider or comment on that option. Our position right now is that we are 100% comitted to the Formula One Design bid as an Olympic Class for London 2012, first and foremost.

To have 100% planing windsurfing in London will simply be so exciting for so many windsurfers and for the general public who will be watching the Olympics in four years' time.

As to launching FOD as a non-Olympic class, there would be many dimensions to consider first, most importantly what would help the Formula format grow further. So we're taking it one step at a time. What ever will help windsurfing racing more accessible and grow, we'd like to support it. For the time being, we believe heart and soul in FOD for London 2012.