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Per
5th May 2008, 01:34 AM
Hi..
In light winds, lets say 8 to 12 knots, which one will come fastest around a race course.
How will they differ in upwind angles, speed, downwind etc.

In real light wind (6 to 8 knots) will the phantom outperform the formula??

Downwind?

Planing threshold?

What about when the wind comes up to 12 to 20 knots?

;-)
Per

Unregistered
5th May 2008, 04:30 AM
It depends basically on the lulls. If they are fairly frequently below 6 knots the Formula will be dead in the water and lose ground very soon. If the formula can stay on the plan then it needs just a knot or two more to point and disappear upwind. Downwind the difference is less but the formula can point further off the wind. The LB will take distinctly more breeze to plane, but maintains good progress on all courses when off plane. If you've never tried that it will come as a pleasant surprise, you can beat just about any monohull upwind without even planing :-)

As the wind gets up the formula becomes physical to sail, but in the good hands the LB won't see which way it went.

Screamer
5th May 2008, 04:32 AM
I've tried (and watched) other boards (not these you mention),and if it's light and holey a daggerboard wins every time. In constant/solid 8-12 knots (when Formula should plane all the time), it would be an interesting battle, someone with more experience might want to comment.
C249 where are you?
;-)

PS Per, really light wind is not 6 to 8. Try a Div2 in 2-5 knots ;-)

James
5th May 2008, 08:26 AM
I agree with unregistered. When formula is just barely planing, longboards can be faster around the course. But as soon as formula gets powered up (10-12 knots), longboards don't have much chance of keeping up.

Unregistered
7th May 2008, 11:09 PM
In 20 plus knots they do.

James
8th May 2008, 11:46 AM
Really? Around a course?

Roger
8th May 2008, 08:16 PM
Hi unregistered,
I'm with James on this one.
On what do you base your statement that longboards (even with upgraded 50 cm fins)will go around an upwind/downwind formula course faster than a formula board with a 70 cm fin and a 10.0 m2 (+ = -) rig.
In lighter winds, (holey or sub planing for the formula boards) the longboard has the advantage of being able to short tack upwind to the upwind mark when the formulas cannot sail a very high course due to not being fully powered up.
As soon as the wind gets to 10 knots, the formula boards do sail a significantly longer course, but since they are traveling at 2-3 x the longboards VMG, they win easily.
At over 20 knots, it's pretty difficult to fully use the centerboard on a long board (unless you have various sizes of centerboard anyway) so the formula boards are going at least 2 x as fast upwind, and much faster downwind.
Maybe on a reaching triangular course the long boards might have a chance, but on true upwind/downwind formula type courses the formula boards are the fastest thing on the water.
Just my experience.

Per
9th May 2008, 02:28 AM
I have already a F159 and yes it's blisteringly fast in 10-12 knots compared to anything else on the water.
So why the Phantom race at all? If it's fast in 5 knots non planing wouldn't it be beaten by the Serenity anyway? Doesn't it have cruising potential in mixed 5-12 knots conditions (non planing/planing) if you want to go really far around an island or up the coast or??

James
9th May 2008, 04:23 AM
"So why the Phantom race at all?" Because raceboards are a very good compromise between displacement and planing performance. A Serenity might be better in 5 knots, and a Formula might be better in 15 knots, but in the real world it's common to encounter 5-15 knots during one single session (especially if it's a long distance session), and a raceboard can handle that with aplomb. So they're great for long cruises in changeable conditions. Also, raceboard performance in high winds really isn't that bad. It's fun to ride them fast in the upwind straps, and downwind or on a reach it's like riding a rocket. :)

Unregistered
14th May 2008, 03:46 AM
Raceboards are always faster when formula boards are on the beach! In the UKWA events there are still a number of days when the longboards have a good days lightwind tactical racing while the formula guys work on their sun tan on the beach.
Once the wind gets to a solid 8-10 knots, the formula guys come out to play and leave us for dead - they're much faster.
At inland events the picture is less predictable because the wind's more gusty and formula boards can't plane all the time. There's a big difference between the top sailors on formula who can pump up onto the plane and the average sailors who spend a lot more time off the plane.
If you're a weekend sailor who doesn't train much, you'll probably have a more enjoyable time on a longboard (I freely admit bias - I tried formula but it was too hard work - went back to longboard!)

Graham

Unregistered
14th May 2008, 04:53 AM
Formula = Golf R32
Raceboard = Aston DB

Remi
14th May 2008, 12:25 PM
Hi All,

With two racer of hi-level in each categories, you will have this result :

- Under 8 knots no chance to the Formula to beat the Phantom Race due to the variation of wind.
- Over 8 knots just the contrary, the Formula is really faster in all tacks.

Both boards are really fast in their seperate world and you take really nice felling with it, depend of your style dagger board or not.

All the best

Unregistered
14th May 2008, 08:46 PM
remi;

It may be just like you say in open waters, but on enclosed waters the FW gear really struggles. We've had guys who do very well in FW try to use it on our puddle, and 90% of the time they were much slower than they were on a Raceboard because even in a strong wind, they didn't get the long legs they needed.

They are fantastic, but not the universal solution the Olympic class has to be.

Per
30th June 2008, 03:09 AM
Well today I went sailing on my F159/10.3 combo. The conditions were 5 to 15 knots, which to me means 30-50% non planing. Just for the fun of it I took out my old Mistral SLE 311 (not a real longboard and it doesn't have a dagger, anyway it's only 8 kgs).
The Mistral appeared to be a lot of fun in the light gusty winds. Due to the longer waterline it went at a noticeable higer speen than the formula when not planing. This speed again generated some more airflow around the sail which made it more powerfull and stable. The result was surprisingly early planing and way better schlogging. Non planing on a formula is pure waiting (waste) time. On the long(er) board it became quite fun. I have to admit that the Mistral had seriousely problems upwind compared to the formula and when the wind came up to a stable +10 knots the formula outperformed the Mistral on any point. Anyway 5-15 knot days are common 75% of the time in my area so, I really think that when the year is over a longboard will have given me the most pleasure....

Unregistered
2nd July 2008, 05:21 AM
Per, that was pretty much the thinking behind the hybrids. But somehow they ended up over weight to the extent they always feel a bit stuck to the water until it's blowing pretty big time. I use a Gsport Lifter in these conditions and am pretty happy with that. But it needs a fairly wide board which inevitably does not go well in displacement mode. Needs wings like a skiff on something narrower ?
Why not get a raceboard ? Well they're great but when the wind gets up it seems pretty silly not to be able to fly the fin upwind on a dedicated course racer. Plus the they tack like a catamaran (reluctantly)