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Polis
7th June 2008, 09:18 AM
based on recent 2 formula races in Portugal and Sopot, starboard formula board 162 seems to be at tail-end of glory.
read that those guys used R20 for barbeque fire..


162 is much slower than 161, vapor or F2 ?

how about R20 ?
everyone is not using it, all on kashy, C3, VMG or some unknown designs.

pfaffi
18th June 2008, 01:47 AM
Hi Polis!
The F162 is trim sensible. The fins working with F161 are definitely not working with F162. It took us longer time than F161 to make the F162 competitable. However you will see who finds the "good" fin will be faster than F161. There are more choices than D... on the market.
cheers peter

Unregistered
19th June 2008, 10:31 AM
I am tired of these vague answers.
If there is a fin that works and makes the 162 competitive with the Gaastra Vapor, TELL US WHICH IS THAT FIN please.
I sailed the Vapor and it was much faster than the 162 IMHO with several different good fins .

Unregistered
19th June 2008, 12:47 PM
It's getting rather doll to read these non-sense posts, rumors rumors rumors and rumors only.

Maybe one day some will understand that TOW is key, cause whether you are on the latest Deb, Kashy, Hurricane, Select, Gasoil, ex C3 or else and same with the boards... You still loose heaps more time tacking and jybing while others on their 4-5 yo fin and couple of years old boards have passed the finishing line. And what about start, getting confortable with your kit instead of changing every 6 months etc...

And one fin that works for Bob won't necessaraly work for Jack... use the one fin that you know.

Happy sailing, less finger training on the keyboard!!

Unregistered
19th June 2008, 01:26 PM
It's getting rather doll to read these non-sense posts, rumors rumors rumors and rumors only.

Maybe one day some will understand that TOW is key, cause whether you are on the latest Deb, Kashy, Hurricane, Select, Gasoil, ex C3 or else and same with the boards... You still loose heaps more time tacking and jybing while others on their 4-5 yo fin and couple of years old boards have passed the finishing line. And what about start, getting confortable with your kit instead of changing every 6 months etc...

And one fin that works for Bob won't necessaraly work for Jack... use the one fin that you know.

Happy sailing, less finger training on the keyboard!!


blablablabla, "more TOW, more TOW"....
I don't have that TOW. What should Ido? How can I compete with guy who bought Kashy and allways finishes the 1st instead of 4th before Kashy?

Unregistered
19th June 2008, 03:02 PM
A couple of things:

-lower your expectations if you don't have that TOW, guys at the top are fast and will only be faster as they also probably are much better t getting the new kit tuned in
-start here, http://www.carbonsugar.com/, Sean has nailed some really good points before getting the credit card out!!
-the new generaion of fins require a different style of sailing that probably most sailor won't be able to pick up straightaway hence the rubbish rumors about this fin doesn't work etc...

raffig
19th June 2008, 03:19 PM
blablablabla, "more TOW, more TOW"....
I don't have that TOW. What should Ido? How can I compete with guy who bought Kashy and allways finishes the 1st instead of 4th before Kashy?


You have just answered your question.... BUY A KASHY !!!!

Unregistered
19th June 2008, 03:33 PM
But you'll have to sell your board first to afford it! Plenty of time to get tuned on your old kit in the meantime as they don't get cooked as quickly as pancakes!!!

Unregistered
19th June 2008, 07:27 PM
let me explain again :
- I had the opportunity to sail the Gaastra board for the first time.
That means ZERO TOW on that board.
- From the first second the Vapor was going much faster than my sailing partners and much faster than I was able to sail my own 162, on which I have some TOW now.
- I have used the same rig on both the Gaastra and the 162 and tested the same fins. THIS INCLUDES KASHY TYPE .
- The Gaastra worked well with my rig and the Kashy type fin and had amazing speed and stability . much faster than the same gear on the 162.
- Also much better upwind angle and something nobody mentioned yet, the Gaastra was not picky regarding trim.
-I tried lower boom, higher boom, mast forward and back, and the Vapor board was still sailing well. I'd say it has a very wide sweetspot , as opposed to being very trim and tuning sensitive, as my 162 appears to be.
- also Gaastra went thru chop with amazing speed, without slowing down or bouncing . That board rocks.
- what I asked here was for the guys who were able to tune their 162 to be competitive with the Gaastra to just TELL WHAT FINS THEY USED. Instead I hear this BS about TOW, what works for one doesn't work for another, they all sound like excuses instead of just ANSWERING THE SIMPLE QUESTION.
- so in conclusion, instead of 5 posts that say "you need more TOW" , which I DID NOT NEED on the Gaastra , please just simply ANSWER WHICH FINS WORKED FOR YOU .

Thanks

geo
19th June 2008, 08:40 PM
You have all of my sympathy.
TOW is important, but not all. Of course TOW will tune a sailor into higher performances, but it's quite stupid feeling to use TOW just to sort out materials, expecially if the right informations are already available somewhere. Asking on the Starboard forum which fins do work well on the new board seems to me the best straightforward way to go to save precious TOW for other purposes, such as refining sailing skills.
Pity I'm not a formula sailor and I don't have those informations. I am in contact with a formula sailor friend who bought a 162 and has the same problem with fins.

Papounet
19th June 2008, 09:51 PM
A smell of the past...
Tow & the right Fin and all is fine...

http://www.formulawindsurfing.org/story.php?id=91

Curiously, the discussion which start's on the forum of a well-known brand in the beginning of 2005, is no longer available

Unregistered
20th June 2008, 01:23 AM
yep,I'm geo's friend who has bought his 162 with huge expectations (as many of us) but it seems to me that I've coming back at 2006 when sailed an Exo warp formula! Same identical feeling. I mean,in the end of last season my level was more than accettable (considering my TOW and my skills).I was easily in the top ranking of the crew which I sail with but now it seems I've fallen down and down and down like when sailed the Exo warp farmula.Please note that in 2006 Starboard has made the 160 (probably the best fw of the brand and one of the best overall).
So what? My TOW is almost identical to the last season one and I've got also 2 brand new '08 fw sails!
Ok probably I've not all that "finesse" to easy understand what the board loves to sail fast and comfortable but I've choosen Starboard for its well known easyness and relative problem-free feeling.I guess that this year I've wrong and just when,according with rules, the board would have last 2 years.... I'm going to ne not so lucky!!
Why now the top team guys don't put here their tricks to make us improve our performance with the board?
A very good example comes from Fanatic website.If you look at Falcon's section there are lot of different advices for different sailors with different sail and fin brands.That's why the Falcons are very fin sensitive.
Someone told right.In 2005 Fanatic has big troubles for having wronged its Fw shape and they have stopped to re-build some for their incapacity to quick react at all the questions the sailor's made.
Please Starboard,make youself a favor,help us seriously and quick....

Unregistered
20th June 2008, 04:45 AM
let me explain again :
- I had the opportunity to sail the Gaastra board for the first time.
That means ZERO TOW on that board.
- From the first second the Vapor was going much faster than my sailing partners and much faster than I was able to sail my own 162, on which I have some TOW now.
- I have used the same rig on both the Gaastra and the 162 and tested the same fins. THIS INCLUDES KASHY TYPE .
- The Gaastra worked well with my rig and the Kashy type fin and had amazing speed and stability . much faster than the same gear on the 162.
- Also much better upwind angle and something nobody mentioned yet, the Gaastra was not picky regarding trim.
-I tried lower boom, higher boom, mast forward and back, and the Vapor board was still sailing well. I'd say it has a very wide sweetspot , as opposed to being very trim and tuning sensitive, as my 162 appears to be.
- also Gaastra went thru chop with amazing speed, without slowing down or bouncing . That board rocks.
- what I asked here was for the guys who were able to tune their 162 to be competitive with the Gaastra to just TELL WHAT FINS THEY USED. Instead I hear this BS about TOW, what works for one doesn't work for another, they all sound like excuses instead of just ANSWERING THE SIMPLE QUESTION.
- so in conclusion, instead of 5 posts that say "you need more TOW" , which I DID NOT NEED on the Gaastra , please just simply ANSWER WHICH FINS WORKED FOR YOU .

Thanks

I believe you've answered your question. Sell your 162 and buy a Gasstra Vapor. End of the story.

Have fun on the water... and remember TOW

Unregistered
20th June 2008, 04:51 AM
Or an Exocet Warp 08 (plug and play, no TOW required!!) or an F2 damn quick!! *bo#ze is not the only one performing this season, others have caught up whichis for the best for the class.

Unregistered
20th June 2008, 06:18 AM
well, the fact that nobody from Starboard is answering here is telling enough.
I recall months ago I read here first rumors that the R20 fin was not working with the 162 and Starboard guys were quick to jump and said these were just rumors, etc, R20 was supposed to be released "next week" (that was 2-3 months ago). Still no R20 yet, it's not mentioned here or on Deboichet website.
There is one R20 allegedly that might've been used by Allison Shreeve when she came to the USNationals but there was also a 2nd fin she had , which nobody that I spoke knows what it was.
I tried to gain whatever equipment info from equipment lists that are supposed to be posted before races but none of the races is posting the equipment lists anymore it seems.
The Formula Windsurfing website is useless in this respect also. This website is also not posting anything useful.
I just jumped on a Gaastra board recently and without any extra TOW I was visibly faster than on my board , after the first 10 seconds of sailing .I am buying a Gaastra , which I have on order, but until I receive it I wanted to give my 162 a chance .It seems the Starboard team knows there is no way to be really competitive with the Gaastra, or else they would've simply posted the equipment info I requested, something like "sailor x used this fin, sailor z used that fin , etc.

Unregistered
20th June 2008, 07:54 AM
- I have used the same rig on both the Gaastra and the 162 and tested the same fins. THIS INCLUDES KASHY TYPE .
- The Gaastra worked well with my rig and the Kashy type fin and had amazing speed and stability . much faster than the same gear on the 162.

Hey Unregistered,
What does it mean Kashy Type? What brand what model?

Thanks

Unregistered
20th June 2008, 07:59 AM
Is this what you were after??
http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3706

Kashy type could be a R07 Select, R20 Deboichet or these new ex C3 actually named KXX... super soft flex at the tip I believe

Unregistered
20th June 2008, 10:03 AM
Hey Unregistered,
What does it mean Kashy Type? What brand what model?

Thanks

the fin I was talking about is a Kashy 70cm XS

Unregistered
20th June 2008, 10:07 AM
Is this what you were after??
http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3706

Kashy type could be a R07 Select, R20 Deboichet or these new ex C3 actually named KXX... super soft flex at the tip I believe

thanks for the link to that older thread regarding the 162 tuning and fins , that's exactly what I was looking for , although I was hoping for something more clear cut regarding the fins. The fin I was referring to as Kashy type is a 70cm Kashy xs .

geo
20th June 2008, 01:49 PM
Don't know if this will be solved, maybe yes, I hope yes for all the people that poured their money in the new Formula board.
BUT.
If this will not be solved, it will be a greatly deserved lesson for many board makers. Change for change's sake: a purely commercial attitude, used to boost sales at the expenses of customers that, at best after one season (if one orders blindfolded and buys the new kit immediately after release, taking all the risks; but in average much less than that), will find their investment in materials depreciated and hard to sell, and themselves salivating for the newest model year kit. Starboard is master in this.
I am not a Formula sailor, but from what I read it seems both 160 and 161 were hugely successful boards, 162 seems to be a mistake. This happens now, when designs are locked for two years. This will probably lead to put Gaastra and F2 in the same position where Starboard was until now: the safe "default" choice. I think Starboard has just destroyed their precious reputation as builders of strongly and reliably competitive Formula boards; an this happens just because of their commercial politics. Hope this will make things change. The lesson is easy, after all: when something works, let it work. Just that.

Unregistered
20th June 2008, 02:00 PM
Guys, I think you all need to settle down a little. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 162. We have raced them since before Christmas in Australia, and can definetly say it is quicker then the 161.

At times the Vapor was quicker , other times the 162 was quicker. Race results were determined by the better racer, not the board.

Two boat testing has proven that either board can be quick, it's just a matter of finding the ideal setup for you.

Unregistered
20th June 2008, 02:14 PM
and in addition to the above, I used almost exactly the same rig settings, and fin(s) as on my 161.

Unregistered
20th June 2008, 02:52 PM
There will always be a board that is best for you, not necessarily the one from the marketing ogre... that's where people get it wrong.

While you're at it try the F2 and Exo and then tell us which is best for YOU. Formula is too specific to go with someone else settings.

That's where the fun is I guess.

Papounet
20th June 2008, 05:36 PM
Guys, I think you all need to settle down a little. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 162. We have raced them since before Christmas in Australia, and can definetly say it is quicker then the 161.

At times the Vapor was quicker , other times the 162 was quicker. Race results were determined by the better racer, not the board.
It was the same with TT05 !
The best board under 12 Knots, some little problems over...

You could be the winner for a race and in the back ground for the others.

In France some good racers sold there 162, to take and other board.
Not necessary Vapor/Exocet, sometimes just an old 160/161 slower than the 162

Unregistered
20th June 2008, 08:15 PM
Not quite. There is no issue with the 162 through any wind range.

SeanAUS120
21st June 2008, 07:10 AM
Hi guys,

This post seems to be going in a few different directions now; so just to tie up a few loose ends...

I haven't seen any performance issues with the 162 in the 6-7 months I have been racing against them in Australia. At the front of the fleet and the guys in the mid-fleet have not changed positions to the norm whatsoever after upgrading boards from the 160/161. I sailed the 162 a few times and thought it a real improvement over the 161, especially downwind. Its definitely a different "ride" in terms of feel compared to the 161 and VERY different compared to the Gaastra Vapor.

The 162 is a very 'driven' board, whereby it gets into a groove and sticks in that groove upwind. It sails a little flatter at the nose then its predecessors and feels a little stiffer. If you ever jump on a Vapor you'll notice its the opposite. Its very 'loose' and twitchy and slight changes in foot pressure can make considerable differences to the trim. The Vapor board sails best with a high and flighty front of the board. I often give people a try of my Vapor after they've been sailing a 162 and they are suprised at how lively the board is; its just that it feels lively compared to a stiff board like the 162. They are DIFFERENT boards. All the two-boat testing I have done failed to find one faster than the other.

Regarding "Kashy" style fins. I often refer to them in my articles just to distinguish between them and more traditional shapes like Deb R13, Hurricane 4a etc etc. By 'Kashy' style I mean that they are swept-back at the tip, stiff at the base with a very soft tip section. There's a plethora of more variables in fins than just 'stiff here, soft here', so that was just a broad way to categorise fins. The R20 and most Kashy's are this style however I do believe the R20 is different to Kashy's in terms of outline and flex/twist (its not a 'copy' of a Kashy as others have suggested).

Regarding its availability. I've talked to quite a few guys around the world who have an R20 so it must be available. I believe Oriana has had some personal tragedy in her family so probably things are very busy for her at the moment. Please be patient! Oriana and JJ are hard-working people!

And for the record, everyone of those guys I spoke to told me the R20 is working great in nearly all conditions and that I should go out and buy one immediately.

Polis
24th June 2008, 06:37 PM
Hi AUS 120,

always a pleasure reading up your comments.

i have ordered a R20 but the recent 2 Formula events seemed to tell that R20 is not as 'good' or successful as R19<
AUS 0 is not using a Deb fin for sure this season.

some commented that the R20 was used for BBQ.

i can only spend such amount of $$ and don't want to 'waste' it.

i do hope someone will get R20 to the podium among the elites formula sailors.

SeanAUS120
24th June 2008, 07:22 PM
Polis,

You are right. Steve isn't using an R20. I probably shouldn't say this, but Steve used his Kashy for most of the events last season. I'm not entirely sure what he's using this season, but I wouldn't be suprised if he has a few different fins as well as his old trusty Debs. Let's not forget that traditionally, Steve uses the fins that nobody else uses. He won the 2006 Worlds with an R16 in 6-8 knots! Nobody else could get that fin to work on the F160! So I wouldn't take to heart exactly what he has under his board at the events...

Another point to mention is that the reason you'll probably find that a few more of the top guys are using Kashy fins is that I'm sure they are getting fins designed specifically for them. Take the R20 for example; its available in one stiffness and make only. That's fine; I'm sure its a fantastic fin - but what if I wanted the same fin with just a little more twist at the tip because my sailing style required this? I know not all fins work for everyone and so you'll probably find the top guys wouldn't do well if they sailed each other's fins. When Jesper Vesterstrom was here in Australia in January I tried some fins of his and I thought they were terrible. He's been Top 3 every event this year on them... is that to say his fins aren't very good or that his sailing style is completely different to mine and requires different fins?

Being able to work with a fin designer on your own ideas and concepts is pretty special, and not really applicable to most of world's FW sailors. Welcome to the fastlane of being a pro-rider (these guys are always going to have access to better gear than you). I suspect that's why so many guys have gone searching for Kashy fins and to some extent Hurricane (as Otmar seems quite happy to build you a "you" specific fin). Deboichet is presenting a more 'mass-market' approach to the fins offering only one make/characteristic with the R20, but that's why its one of the cheaper fins on the market (compared to Kashy especially!) and available in relatively low waiting times. I realise having fins only available to certain people at the top is counter-productive to the sport; but that seems to be the norm in FW these days. However, there appears to be new fin manufacturers popping up this year, so maybe that will help distribute the wealth a little more evenly.

That being said... I don't believe you've wasted any money on the R20. I think it will be a very good fin this season. I think they are just simply a little less represented at the front of the fleet because there aren't too many out on the market as yet.

I know at least quite a few of the Dutch guys have got R20's. So there'll be a few popping up at the FW Europeans when the Dutchies come to race ;)

Crash
24th June 2008, 09:42 PM
Hi guys looking at this argument from the outside, I just sail formula boards for fun, maybe each board when registered should be limited to say two stock fins so its a test of the riders skills not the choice of fin! Then there is an argument on progress, fins make such a big difference how else do you get the best fin but continually testing? I think its great that there seems to be a lot of competitive boards this year as each manufacturer tries different designs it would be disappointing if one manufacturer did completely dominate all the time.
Crash

SeanAUS120
25th June 2008, 07:28 AM
I'm not sure if I like that idea Crash! That has always been my argument against RSX. Why is just the "sailors' skill" a measure of their windsurfing abilities? I really believe that tuning is a very difficult skill to possess and having to do it year in year out, when the new gear arrives each year makes it as big a part of the sport as does the actual racing.

The Pro's are generally locked (with their contracts) in to riding the newest gear even if the newest gear is slower than the previous years'. In that case, they must work especially hard to get the new gear going fast with different combinations of fins, masts etc etc. Tuning is probably +80% of most people's training for formula!

I really like what tuning has done for my knowledge and understanding of how all the equipment (especially fins) works. If we were racing a one-design class, all we'd have to do is just have to go out and practice tacks/gybes all day ~ how boring!

You are right though. Great that there's so many different designs out there that are working and nobody is really dominating the fin market at the moment (at least that's how I see it).

Unregistered
25th June 2008, 08:22 AM
KASHY article
http://www.miamiwindsurfing.com/local.html

Unregistered
5th July 2008, 05:23 AM
Didn't do so bad in the Baltic...