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tjanulis
11th June 2008, 07:47 AM
Lately I have been having the problem that I round upwind in all but extremely low wind. I am sailing a 145 Carve with the fin it came with, a 520 Drake. I often sail with either a 6.5 Gaastra GTR (no cams) or an 8.7 Gaastra Nitro 2 (4 cams) on a 490 29 imcs mast. I have tried to follow the recommended settings as a starting point. I have been sailing in more aggresive conditions than in the past, and I am guessing that this problem never showed up because I was never pushing as much before or I am doing something wrong.
As soon as the the wind hits around 10+ knots the board wants to round up. Even when I try to uphaul, the board wants to spin right into the wind and stall. I have been successful at putting my front foot really far forward (in front of the mast base)to get the board going, and once on a plane I have to keep my front foot right by the mast base to keep the board from rounding up into the wind. I believe that it is a rigging/tuning error, because recently while in Fla. I rented a board from Calema, and had no problems, just great sailing. I also had someone else try my setup and they were feeling the same things that I felt. I tried moving the mast base from the center of the track forward, and then all the way back, but it didn't seem to eliminate the problem.
Last weekend I decide to try varying the outhaul and the downhaul to see what happened. I kept the mast base in the center of the track. I tried adding more outhaul to try and move the center of effort forward. It may have helped but not enough to stop the problem. Then I tried releasing downhaul tension a little. Again, minor change, still the tendency do roundup. Then I released the downhaul tension until the leech was tight, still not enough to eliminate the problem.

Any suggestions or comments would be much appreciated.

marek
11th June 2008, 08:58 AM
Can't really answer here but would love to hear some advice as I'm having exactly the same problem.

My background: Starboard F-type 148 in any wind - no problem with rounding up at all.
Any other smaller board = problems. Last weekend I rented Goya FSR 125 which is a modern design and has very similar dimensions to Carve 111 and when the wind picked up I was rounding up constantly, very depressing :mad:.
Tried the other 2 smaller boards in the past in strong winds - the same problem. (one time I couldn't even start - the board would go sideways).

I know from theory that I should put more pressure on the mast foot over my harness lines/boom and I was thinking I'm doing it, but perhaps not enough.
I'm also moving my sail forward and windward a lot but it doesn't seem to solve the problem.

It's confusing, because I'm keeping quite a good balance on a smaller board but still I'm getting so much tired from making it going downwind all the time. How come it doesn't happen to me on a larger/wider board?

Please help!

-marek

Roger
11th June 2008, 12:44 PM
Hi guys,
Hmmmmm..... interesting experiences both of you are having here.
First, let's define the things that can cause your board to round up.
#1...... the rail to rail (roll axis) trim of the board is upwind rail lower than downwind rail.
Why..... because your stance is putting your weight/center or gravity upwind of the boards centerline, or you are putting weight on your front foot which is upwind of the centerline, without compensating by putting your back foot "heel on centerline" to compensate for the added weight upwind of centerline and bring the board back to level (rail to rail).
#2....... Raking the rig back too soon.
When you are starting to get underway (either a short board or a longboard here) you need to ensure that the rig is fully perpendicular (the axis or line drawn from center of the mast to the center of the boom end) to the fore and aft axis of the board.
If you do not get the rig perpendicular, but rather start to sheet it in before you really got the board and rig "aligned" in the "T" position, the board will instantly try to turn upwind. It's doing exactly what you are telling it to do if you rake the rig back as you sheet in the sail to power it up.
#3...... Mast base is positioned too far back on the board (but this is easily compensated for by keeping your rig a bit more forward (tipped forward over the universal joint to put more of the drive from the sail further forward when getting underway.
For sure, Marek, you need more time on the water to discover how much more sensitive a narrow board is than you F-Type 148.
The F-Type 148 is very forgiving about rail to rail mis-trim (mistrim being other than perfectly flat rail to tail). Smaller and narrower boards are not.
For tjanulis..... What was the board you rode at Calema and how does the width compare to your Carve 145.
I suspect that both of you are not getting your board/rig fully perpendicular to the true wind when starting to get underway, and then to compound the problem you are not keeping the rig forward long enough to get the board fully moving before you add a bit of weight upwind of the centerline.
Keeping the rig upright (fore and aft here) or perhaps a little tipped forward or upwind a bit is not difficult, but I'd guess in your haste to get things going, you have passed over or skipped this very important skill.
So, try this.... work on getting the end of the boom straight downwind, and the rig balanced with the board fully in the "T" position right across the wind.
When you sheet in to start out, if the board starts to turn upwind, tip the rig a little more forward.
Be very careful with your footwork that you truly keep the board "flat" rail to rail.
Thie will help the board to plane off earlier.
As you move back progressively on the board, with your feet, try to keep the rig more forward to keep the board from turning upwind.
Do not try to "rake the rig back" until you are pretty much fully on a plane.
Once the board planes off, and you are in the footstraps and hooked in, THEN worry about raking the rig back.
I don't think either of you really have a rigging problem, or a mast foot positioning problem, but you've learned to leave out some very important "alignment" issues when getting underway.
Tjanulis...... where do you live.... anywhere near Cape Hatteras..... I'd love to see how you are rigging your sail and what your technique is.
You've really piqued my curiosity.
Hope this helps,

marek
11th June 2008, 01:15 PM
Thanks Roger, I'll try it next time.
You're right that F-type is way more forgiving than any other smaller shortboard I've tried.

Also, I've just recalled, I actually had a similar problem even on my F-type - at the very, very beginning I couldn't get it moving, it would round up on me.
Later on my friend who was learning had the very same issue.
What helped me then was to (1) get the sail perpendicular like you said, but also (2) tip the mast windward until I could see the nose of my board over the window in my sail and THEN start sheeting in.
The 2nd one I actually got from a windsurfing book and it really helped me, I guess I forgot about it and have to use it (more extensively) on a smaller board.
Whatya think?

-marek

P.S. If you have a chance, will you take a look into my "back footstrap problem" post?

Ken
13th June 2008, 01:27 AM
What Roger said...........

In simple terms from my view -

Where I sail, and in most places, the wind and waves aren't at 90 degrees to one another. This makes you think you have the board perpendicular to the wind, but you don't, it is actually pointing into the wind or bearing off. You probably find that your heading up problem is generally occurs when you are on starboard or port, but not both. Sheeting in the sail to gain power will instantly head you up into the wind.

Usually when sheeting in, you will add weight to the back foot, which just makes the problem worse.

If you begin the whole thing by being sure that the board is heading 100 - 110 degrees off the wind, it should go fine.

tjanulis
13th June 2008, 04:04 AM
Roger,
The board that I rented at Calema was a 160L Fanatic, I think the one that I rented was 80 or 82cm wide, my 145 Carve is 78cm wide a difference of 2 to 4cm. Is that enough of a difference to mask a technique problem?
I guess that I am focusing on the rig and tuning because I had a good session on rental gear, and I had someone else try my rig and give me the same feedback on what I was feeling. That is not to say that I am ruling out my technique, actually I would love to find out that it was something that I am doing wrong, I would just like to figure it out!
I even weighed the board to see if it was the same weight as the mfg specification, it was.
I live in Northern NJ, sorry not really convenient to Hatteras.
If I get out this weekend, I am going to make a conscious effort to make sure the rig is perpendicular to the wind before starting, keeping the board flat, and keeping the sail upwind a bit more.
Could you clarify what you mean when you say “get the board fully moving”

Thanks

Roger
13th June 2008, 10:44 AM
Hi tjanulis.
If you don't solve the problem this weekend, what are you doing next weekend.
It just so happens I will be in Atlantic city, NJ next Sat and Sun.
If you could come by this event for a day, I'd love to sail your board and rig to see
what might be causing your issues.
Also, we can really tune up your rig to make sure that is not some part of the problem.
Hope to see you at Lakes Bay.
R

Ken
13th June 2008, 09:42 PM
Here is a supplemental thought after getting out yesterday on my iS 111.

Big sail on a short board = heading up in sub-planing conditions.

I was on a Maui Sails TR4 7.6. This sail on the short 234cm board causes me to put a fair amount of pressure on my back foot whenever I sheet in because of the relatively long boom, which extends well beyond the tail of the board. If I am slogging waiting for a puff of wind and sheet in too soon without heading off the wind, the board rounds up very quickly.

In sub planing conditions, even if I am on a beam reach, the board always wants to head up. I can't slogg comfortably while hooked in waiting for the wind without continually forcing the nose of the board back to a beam reach (front foot pressure and moving the sail forward). Once on plane, no problem heading up, the board goes where I want it to go.

I don't know if this observation applies to your situation, but for what it's worth.......

Ken

tjanulis
13th June 2008, 10:24 PM
Roger,
I will be at Lakes Bay Sunday (6/22), I had planned on it because I had seen that it was a demo day. It will be nice to meet in person.
Ken,
I think what you observed does apply to what I am experiencing. Roger also mentioned that in my haste I am not fully letting the board get going before I try to sheet in.
Thanks for the thoughts and help

Ted

tjanulis
18th July 2008, 05:21 AM
Roger,
Thanks for your help. The four words that made the difference for me were, "move the mast upwind". That has cured the rounding up problems that I was having. I guess that I was sheeting in, but not keeping the ceter of effort of the sail over the right spot of the board.
The reasopn that it has taken so long for me to get back on this was because the I haven't been out in conditions that let me try this out.

Thanks again.
Ted

Roger
18th July 2008, 06:25 AM
Hi Ted,
It was great to meet your and figure this out.
Don't feel bad, not getting the mast far enough upwind is a very common problem.
Glad to be of help!
Roger

marek
18th July 2008, 06:15 PM
Same here, Roger.
I had this problem on the very beginning, solved it exactly this way and then forgot about it completely until I got on the way smaller and narrower board.

I remember originally I solved it by reading instruction in the book to move the mast upwind until I could see the nose through the sail and _then_ sheet in.

BTW: exactly after 1.5 year after I got on the windsurfing board for the 1st time I had a full-control session last weekend on my F-type and 10.0 Gaastra GTX in both straps, planing from underpowered to slightly overpowered, lifting the windward rail and bearing off in the lulls (I was able to stay on plane in really low wind) and getting really good upwind angles in the gusts (going 1 mile in one direction). Got used to the speed enough that I tried planing jibes a couple of times (not successful, but not too bad either). Completed a couple of helicopters on this jumbo sail ;-).
Thanks to Roger and other people on this forum.

-marek

Roger
18th July 2008, 08:55 PM
Hi Marek,
Thanks for your kind words!
It's good to hear some positive feedback that the discussions here on this forum are making a difference for advancing sailors.
I always get a little "rush" when I hear that one of you have made a breakthrough tothe next level.
When I was learning, there were no forums, and "breakhroughs" didn't occur as quickly and there was no one to share it with.
It's awesome that you are fully up to speed in 1.5 years.
Regards,
Roger

mitchiedog
24th August 2008, 12:44 PM
Its interesting that most of the modern tuition DVDs never mention to 'bring the mast up wind". They tend to focus on "sheeting in" and "move back slowly" to help learners progress. My theory is that advanced windsurfers completely forget about the forces turning the board upwind - that is, they do it so instinctvely, to bear the board away before they try and get planing, that they dont know even know they do it. For learners, this is the most noticeable force of all after getting you balance. I've watched many videos and DVDs and they simply overlook it. They say "rig forward and bear the board away" but this is only half the story. It really clicked for me when I was told to bring the mast upwind.

marek
16th September 2008, 05:27 PM
BTW: exactly after 1.5 year after I got on the windsurfing board for the 1st time I had a full-control session last weekend on my F-type and 10.0 Gaastra GTX in both straps, planing from underpowered to slightly overpowered, lifting the windward rail and bearing off in the lulls (I was able to stay on plane in really low wind) and getting really good upwind angles in the gusts (going 1 mile in one direction). Got used to the speed enough that I tried planing jibes a couple of times (not successful, but not too bad either). Completed a couple of helicopters on this jumbo sail ;-).
Thanks to Roger and other people on this forum.

-marek


Just wanted to share a couple of pictures from the last weekend.
You can see me on my F-type and 9.8 Gaastra GTX. Sweet combo. :-)

http://picasaweb.google.pl/mzawadzk/Kamienica2008091214#

-marek

Roger
16th September 2008, 09:31 PM
Hi Marek,
You are doing extremely well.
Your stance looks excellent!
Glad we could be a part of your joy!
R

marek
17th September 2008, 02:56 PM
Hey, thanks for the kind words :).
I still have LOTS of stuff to learn, but isn't it great?

Next year I hope to learn jibing and to get as comfortable on my 111 Carve as I am currently on my F-type. I was thinking about moving the back strap on my Carve to the very inboard position (both straps are now in their middle positions) to learn quicker.
I find that riding Carve's fin is way different from F-type and perhaps I don't need that much leverage but I can change my setup to get into the back strap more easily.
What do you think?

-marek

Roger
17th September 2008, 09:18 PM
Hi Marek,
Since you can obviously get into all 4 outboard straps on the F-Type, I'd suggest putting the straps on your Carve 111 in the most outboard and back positions.
Yes, there will be a short "learning curve" until your muscle memory figures out that the straps aren't in the ususal F Type positions, but that shouldn't take but a few runs.
Probably the biggest "adjustment" you face is learning to stay off the fin until you have the requisite speed for the fin to really "hook up" and be able to withstand more side pressure.
If you can find one, get an oversized slalom/race type vertical pointer fin for the Carve 111. I'd think something in the 38-46 range would work as a "transition fin" and also help to get you planing alot sooner.
What fin are you currently using in your C-111?
Hope this helps,

marek
18th September 2008, 03:02 PM
Roger, the board came with a larger than standard fin, Drake Freeride 380.
I have my straps set in middle position:
http://www.cs.stevens.edu/~mzawadzk/carve/carve_vs_ft148.jpg

I was able to get into both straps a couple of times, but it requires quite a lot of wind. I was thinking by moving back strap more inboard I could get into both straps quicker. Generally I don't feel comfortable until in both footstraps - then I can correct my stance and start working on the upwind progress. It seems I either do something wrong or I really need a decent speed to start getting into back footstrap.

When in both straps it was great, however I caught a spinout a few times (admittedly though I was trying to get upwind heavily as I lost ground before to get on plane - which follows the same pattern as with F-type at the beginning).

Generally my biggest problems with C-111 are:
- to quickly get on plane, into straps and make upwind progress
- to uphaul (the board is sinking, I am ~85kg) - I'm thinking maybe I should have gotten 122 instead of 111 :(
- to tack (I don't even think about jibing)

-marek

Roger
18th September 2008, 08:40 PM
Hi Marek,
OK, let's back up a bit here.
What is the wind speed when you are trying to sail you Carve 111?
What sail size are you using?
What is "downwind" that makes you so focused on sailing upwind as soon
as possible?
Why are you not jibing the Carve 111? (Assuming that you are jibing the F-Type).

An 85 Kg. sailor will need a 7.5 m2 rig and a minimum of about 13-14 knots of wind to get the Carve 111 planing.
If you can get planing, there should be no real issues with staying upwind as soon as you have good speed. Sounds like you are "rushing things" kinda like you did on the F-Type at first...... right?
Don't rush to get into the footstraps.
Unless there are many hungry great white sharks, or a mine field "downwind" there's nothing I see that would compel you to have to stay upwind so much.
Get the board going, get your speed up, THEN work to gain back any upwind position you lost while getting going.
I think you sail on a small lake, right?
I agree that it's not so cool to come back downwind of where you started, but until you get the Carve 111 all figured out, sail back as close as you can to where you started then do a couple of tacks and tip you board upwind rail down and slog back upwind.
In slog mode, for short periods of time, you can really tip the board and make lot's of upwind progress. Is it fun?.....no! but it eliminates coming back in downwind of your launch.
Also, on your last couple of runs, focus on upwind and using the whole lake as longer runs will give you better upwind progress.
You've made phenomenal progress on the F-Type, so you will most likely make the same sort of progress on the Carve 111 if you have wind conditions and rig size to use a board that small.
Remember, you are coming off one of the earliest planing freeride boards ever produced, so my guess is that you are wanting use the Carve in conditions that aren't quite optimal for a board that small.
A larger board (the Carve 122) might help, as it's a little wider and more floaty, so it will get going in a knot or 2 less wind, but at the top end of things it will get "too big" a couple of knots sooner as well.
Stick with it, when you have enough wind, and I think you'll learn to love the Carve 111.
One day you will be sailing even smaller boards and wonder why you had these issues, but they are all part of the learning curve.
What size is your "oversize" fin. Is it a vertical pointer or a curvy freeride fin?
Hope this helps,

marek
18th September 2008, 09:15 PM
Hi Marek,
OK, let's back up a bit here.
What is the wind speed when you are trying to sail you Carve 111?
What sail size are you using?
What is "downwind" that makes you so focused on sailing upwind as soon as possible?
Why are you not jibing the Carve 111? (Assuming that you are jibing the F-Type).
[...]
I think you sail on a small lake, right?
[...]
What size is your "oversize" fin. Is it a vertical pointer or a curvy freeride fin?


Hi Roger.

Thanks for your quality response.

That other day I sailed my C111 I can tell you exactly the wind speed as there was a guy with a meter - it was 15 knots (probably more in the gusts) and I was on my 7.5 3-cam, free-race Gaastra GTX (mast foot all the way forward minus 1 cm - perhaps that was the problem).

The fin is 380 Drake Freeride (curvy).

This is a small, round lake (so at every "unsuccessful" run I'm left with less and less space until I have to do walk of shame). I seem to loose most of the ground by trying to get on plane (when I have to go downwind in the gust, pump a bit and see if I can get on plane).

I'm not all that great with jibing on my F-type so I don't even try to jibe on C-111 (perhaps I should :)). Tacking is obviously ok on FT and seems impossible to me on C-111.
Also, my back foot rises fountains of water when I try to enter the back footstrap which does not help, neither.

In overall C-111 feels great when on plane in both footstraps (it just slides through chop so safely, comparing to FT which is a tough ride at higher speeds and chop), but general handling is very difficult to me (uphauling, getting into the back FS, tacking).
Also, comparing to other boards I tried I don't have problems with rounding up on this board.

-marek

Roger
19th September 2008, 09:39 AM
Hi Marek,
Well, putting the mast foot all the way forward on a Carve 111 is about the same as dropping the anchor.
No wonder you can't get the C111 going.
For a 7.5 m2 rig, I'd suggest starting with the mast foot about 3/4 of the way back and maybe you will end up with it even a little further back than that.
I hope you aren't putting the mast foot all the way forward on your F-Type, as that would effectively kill alot of your performance on that board as well.

What led you to put the mast foot all the way forward...?
The only boards that need to be trimmed all the way forward are older formula boards with 10.0-12.5 rigs.
Virtually all other boards sail much more freely with the mast foot further back (sailor weight and sail size can have a small impact here).
Sounds like you've been trying to get the Carve 111 going, but left the emergency brake on.
15 knots....85 Kg. sailor weight....Carve 111.... you should be off on a plane with a couple of pumps.

Try and find a 42 cm vertical fin. This will help alot with early planing on the C-111.

If your back foot is dragging when you go for the footstrap, you don't have enough speed yet.
I think you still have a tendency to move back too soon and go for the rear footstrap way to early.
Let to board get up onto a plane before you even think about putting your back foot in.
Perhaps your board is "tail dragging" to some degree and this just makes getting on plane even harder.

It seems that you have a bit more to learn about fore and aft trim.
You do need to progressively move back, but only enough to get the nose up slightly to get the planing surfaces at the optimum angle to promote early planing.
Then you head off slightly, pump a bit and the board begins to light up.
At this point you can have your front foot in the front strap, but your back foot will be
in the center of the board and in front of the rear footstraps (how far in front I cannot tell you, but it will be somewhere between midway between the front and back straps, and the front of the back straps.
Once you find the "secret spot" the board will plane off easily and then you can gain some more speed and get it fully planing.
Then think about getting into the back strap.
If you move back too soon or too much, you just about eliminate any chance that your board will plane.
Combine this with pushing the nose down and making the board "plow" due to the mast foot being too far forward and you have the perfect recipe for making a easy to plane board into a very difficult to plane board.
Hope this helps,

marek
19th September 2008, 03:24 PM
Hi Roger.

Great to read your posts in the morning :rolleyes:.

As far as the mast foot is concerned here is some information which setup I use and why.

F-Type
- 9.8: all the way forward minus 1 cm
- 7.5: all the way back + 1 cm

C-111
7.5: all the way forward minus 1 cm
6.0: middle

- Generally my logic is that max. sail size for a given board requires max. forward position in the mast foot (MF), and minimal sail size requires max. backward position.
Seems that this logic is wrong, no? ;-).

Additionally to that:
- I set the MF on C-111 so much forward to prevent it from rounding up when I have 7.5 (but I could work on that)
- FT with 9.8 and my MF setup feels most comfortable in tougher conditions (perhaps in lighter winds I could move it backwards, but I've heard somewhere, that in very light winds it is good to have it forward a bit to increase MFP). Generally I think I could use any setup with my FT since I feel comfortable on it - please advice.

I seem to be lost on which MF setup to use with my 2 boards and 3 sails:

FT-148: 7.5, 9.8 (plus what to do when under/overpowered)
Carve-111: 6.0, 7.5(plus what to do when under/overpowered)

Can you help?

-marek

P.S. Of course I remember you were advising to move MF all the way back and move it forward gradually until the board stops tailwalking, but can you at least give me your idea on how the MF should be set in the above combinations? (because it is not very easy for me to decide when the board is both easy to plane and under good control at the same time)

Roger
19th September 2008, 10:02 PM
Good Morning Marek,
OK, I see your logic, but it does not match up very well with my experience.
You weigh 85 Kg. (187.4 lbs) and I weigh slightly less, but my weight has increased over the last few years from about 73 Kg. (160 lbs.) and I have not had to make any major adjustments in mast foot positioning.
Let me explain my logic on this and see if you can understand why putting the mast foot way forward on almost any board is not a good thing to do unless you are racing at the highest levels on a formula board and you want to keep the nose down and get the absolute best VMG upwind.
You've seen my suggestions on starting with the mast foot near the back of the slot and keeping it as far back as you can and still maintain control.
I would guess that you have never had the conditions where you really experienced "tailwalking".... right.
So until you see what that's about (tailwalking) you will not understand the sudden "loss of control" that requires moving the mast foot a little forward to regain control.
Here's the "phsyics":
Mast foot back allows more of the length of the board to come out of the water when planing on smooth water. If you have really flat smooth water, and good winds (perhaps you get something like this on your small round lake as there's not much "fetch" for the wind to work on making waves on the top of the water) you can allow as much of the board as possible out of the water by moving the mast foot to the back (rear) of the mast adjustment slot.
The board will plane it's fastest with this setting, right up to the point that the boardspeed exceeds the optimum speed for the fin.
The board will all of a sudden "hunt around, jump up out of the water a little, and generally act like a hooked marlin that gets up on it's tail and shakes it's head trying to shake the hook from it's mouth.
This is a control issue and the best way to "settle things down" is to move the mast foot forward slightly in the mast slot. ( 1-3 cm increments here)
What this does is move the mast foot pressure forward slightly and this changes the fore/aft Angle of Attack (AOA) of your boards planing surfaces.
Slightly less AOA results in slighty more of the bottom of the board being engaged with the water's surface, and a slight increase in the overall hull drag.
This slows you down slightly, and keeps you in control.
To go really fast, you need to be right on the edge of being out of control, so it takes a few adustments of the mast foot to find the "sweet spot" where you have "just enough"
control and can comfortably attain max. speed.
You can change the point/speed that your board "tailwalks" (if you want to go faster on the same board) by reducing your fin size and using a well designed slalom or speed type fin (usually a nearly vertical foil in a very small size).
So, putting the mast foot forward of the "sweet spot" for your particular board/rig/fin combination is simply slowing you down and making every thing more difficult as the board is basically "dragging" due to more than the necessary amount of hull in the water.
When you add chop to the mix, you may need to adjust the mast foot a little more forward, but be aware that you can put the mast foot in a spot that creates some sort of "harmonic" with the chop on the bottom of your board and get into a "bound and rebound" cycle that can be almost impossible to control. Moving the mast foot back a little more usually stops the harmonic and you can go over the chop pretty smoothly.
Having mast foot pressure too far forward in chop really slows the board down and really pounds the sailor as the board has to "slam into" each bit of chop and the "entry point" where the board first touches the chop is forward in the flatter part of your board instead of further back where there's some "V" that can soften the ride.
So, to take your sailing to the next level, I would suggest that you start out
"experimenting" on your F-Type because you are already comfortable on it and have lots of Time on the Water(TOW).
Try moving the mast foot nearly all the way back (if you have the std. twist plate or twist plate washer (11.5-12.5 cm) move it back until the edge of the twist plate/washer is almost covering the serial number. (I forget exactly where I used to put my mast foot on the F-Types, but I know it was well behind the center of the slot).
Take your 9.8 m2 rig out and see if you don't go a bit faster and the board doesn't ride a bit smoother.
Then move it back a couple of cm and see how that feels.
Then move it forward 2 or 3 cm (ahead of your first setting) and see how that feels.
When the board jumps onto a plane pretty much effortlessly, and goes fast and smooth giving you pretty effortless control, you are zeroing in on the sewwt spot.
When the wind comes up enough that you need the 7.5 m2 rig, start out with the mast foot at the same "sweet spot" you had for the 9.8 m2 and then do the same experiment.
Then do the same with your 7.5 m2 on the Carve 111.
I think you will be amazed at how much faster they go and how much easier both boards jump onto a plane.
Hope this helps,

marek
20th September 2008, 01:21 AM
Thanks a lot, Roger, I really appreciate the time you spend on helping me.
I'll try the new setup tomorrow (we have local regatta, probably not the best moment for experiments but what the hell :)).

Take care,

-marek

Roger
20th September 2008, 02:54 AM
Hi Marek,
You can learn a whole lot at a regatta!
If there is some other sailor/competitor there with the same board, approx. same sailor size and rig size, check out there they have their mast foot positioned.
I'll be very surprised if it's all the way forward (unless it's a full on formula board in really powered to overpowered conditions).
You won't be able to match a formula board with your 9.8 and the F-Type, even if you try very hard.
The formula board will have a larger rig/fin and is designed to go really high upwind and really low/deep off the wind.
The F-type won't go as high or fast and won't go as low and stay on plane due to the design of the board.
If your regatta course has more reaching marks than upwind/downwind marks you might have a slight chance to hang with the formula boards.
Since you only have limited distance you can go on your small round lake, you won't have much advantage over the longboards in the fleet unless they choose to short tack straight up to the windward mark.
Try the mast foot back at least to the middle and see if your board doesn't plane sooner.
I think you'll find another "gear" to your boards.
You've been holding your boards in 4th gear (with the mast foot so far forward) but they both came equipped with 5 speed gearboxes so you need to shift into that higher gear and really take off.
Nicest thing about a regatta is that you start with the rest of the fleet and you can watch/imitate what the faster sailors do and learn alot in a short amount of time.
If you see someone who usually places at the top of the fleet and on a similar type of board and rig, get behind them and follow their every move. See how long you can hang with them.
Strategy is important, but it only applies if the faster sailor is on similar equipment.
Don't do like I once did and follow the longboards off the wind (I was on a Formula 155).
They cruised along in displacement mode and I followed when I should have been sailing my own race and stayed planing at much higher speed to reach the finish line sooner but having traveled a greater distance.
Hope this helps,

marek
24th September 2008, 07:22 PM
Hi Roger.

I used your advice even more and set up mast foot all the way back -1 cm (FT/9.8) . The board felt really light (conditions were very underpowered though) and was easier to get on plane while a little more nervous in shlog mode (but that doesn't matter). I'll see how that works in higher winds.

The regatta course was typical "8" slalom course (2 buoys on a beam reach), about 50 people, very underpowered conditions, with shifting wind direction.
I finished all the 3 races and was classified as 36th :o :o :o.

For me the greatest problem was to get the clean wind after start and due to the weak, gusty wind I was often afraid to "invest" some upwind ground to go downwind and pump trying to get on plane - if I were doing that too much I would have to tack to get upwind from the buoy. The result was that I was planing only in solid gusts when everybody else was planing on a standard gear, too, but I'm thinking that probably I could get on plane more often using my gear (if I had cleaner wind and could pump better).
I find that even with the long fin and various techniques, FT is less efficient in shlogging upwind/on a beam reach than a longer, standard freeride board with smaller fin.

Anyway it was a great experience (my third regatta). The only problem over here is that my FT is often not allowed as being too wide (80cm max, they made an exception for me this year) and in typical forumula regatta I probably don't stand a chance like you said (and this kind of regatta is less popular, too).
Ideally I would like to have a board which can be used with my 9.8, get on plane as early as FT, go upwind almost as good and be not more than 80cm wide.
As I don't plan to get a new board anytime soon I'll probably try to get better on my C-111 and use this board in regattas.

-marek

Roger
24th September 2008, 09:07 PM
Hi Marek,
Good Show!
I do not understand the "width <= 80 cm rule" for your races.
Never heard of anything like that before.
Do they have "classes"?
With 50 sailors I would think so.
If you want to do well in these races, look around for an older Sonic W75.
That'a a board that truly rips. Won't plane as early as your F-Type, but it meets the
rules better.
Beyond that, maybe something like a Rio M or Phantom would work in your situation.
Do they have a sail size rule also?
Maybe a larger rig would help get you going sooner.
Also, keep working on your pumping skills.
Sounds like you are still "following the fleet".
If there are smaller narrower short boards (without centerboards) doing well in your races (you seem to want to use your C-111 and that would not like your 9.8 very well,
and it reqiures alot more wind to get planing) then take a look at what the others are sailing and maybe we can suggest a Starboard that would do better for you.
Are you saying that the sailors at the front of the fleet are on 80 cm wide shortboards, but are not planing at all, but beating you on your F-Type?
This is very puzzling to me?
Also, it sounds like your "slogging" skills could use some work as well.
You should be able to stand off center on the F-Type and "bank" or rail your board and
stay with other shortboards pretty easily. You won't be able to stay with longboards (with centerboards) short taking upwind, and not on a beam reach in less than planing conditions, but I think you would be able to stay with short boards on a figure 8 course.
Is this course laid out truly across the wind with the pins (buoys) parallel with the starting line so you sail across the line and then up to one or the other of the buoys, then figure 8 around the buoys, then head back down to the start finish line, or some other setup?
If the bouys are truly "across the wind" and you are on a beam reach (about the same as most "back and forth" windsurfing) I would think you would be doing quite a bit better on the F-Type and perhaps this is why they don't allow wider or formula type boards.
Hope this helps,

marek
24th September 2008, 10:29 PM
Hi Marek,
I do not understand the "width <= 80 cm rule" for your races.
Never heard of anything like that before.
[...]
Are you saying that the sailors at the front of the fleet are on 80 cm wide shortboards, but are not planing at all, but beating you on your F-Type?
This is very puzzling to me?

They limit board's width on this regatta to prevent people with large, expensive Formula kits to outperform the regular freeride crowd. They also limit the sail size to 10.0.
Anyhow, the winners are usually guys with tons of skills on some random gear, smaller sails (and usually small, freeride or freestyle boards) or they even come without their own gear and borrow some just before the regatta and still beat everybody off. They start well, quickly get on plane with pumping and stay ahead of the crowd all the time...:)


If the bouys are truly "across the wind" and you are on a beam reach (about the same as most "back and forth" windsurfing) I would think you would be doing quite a bit better on the F-Type and perhaps this is why they don't allow wider or formula type boards.


This is "across the wind" race just like you said (however the wind is pretty shifty and often you are more on a close reach than on the beam reach).

-marek

Roger
25th September 2008, 08:55 AM
Hi Marek,
Hmmm.... maybe you better not get alot better.
They are letting you sail your "sorta" formula board (the F Type) very graciously, and as soon as your skills improve and you start moving up in the fleet, they may become a bit
less "gracious".
But I still fail to see how smaller narrower boards are sailing away from you.
Have you ever considered that your F-Type, once planing, will pretty much leave smaller narrower boards (except maybe the Hypersonic and Isonics) (esp. Freeride and freestyle boards) in your wake upwind.
You are close to the max. sail size, so unless you have some rigging issues, I would expect you to move toward the front of the fleet pretty quickly as your skills and tactics improve.
Gotta get beyond your fear of heading off downwind a little to lite up your boards.
Can't do much in slog mode, but slog.
Get the board planing and you can go much higher and faster.
Hope this helps,