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Christhefish
27th September 2006, 07:10 PM
Hi

I have been windsurfing for just over a year now and I have gone from a Go 155 to my latest board a Carve 133, the problem is where I sail when ever the wind gets up so does the swell and it is very hard to keep the board from bouncing around like a space hopper!! I was thinking of getting a kombat 107 as this will act as my waveboard and still be able to handle the flat water that we sometimes get, I am at the stage now where I can waterstart faily easily and I am now just trying to pull off a carve gybe, which untill now I have not managed.

I have spent a fantastic week in Vassiliki where I was able to sail a carve 122 and a 111 with no problems, unfortantley the kombats were never availible to try.

So my question is do you think the Kombat 107 would be a possible long term choice, as an alround board for me, I weigh 65kg.

All the best

Chris

Ola_H
28th September 2006, 03:26 PM
Hit Chrishefish

The Kombats are very easy to sail boards only a tiny bit more technical than the super easy carves. So, I definitely think a Kobat is a nice next step and since they really rip in waves too you can probably keep it for a long time when you evolve as a sailor.

The tricky thing is sizing. You don't mention sail sizes which makes it even more tricky. I would say that despite that you are coming of bigger boards, you are probably better of with a smaller Kombat. Even the 87 will be a full floater and be far easier in lots of wind. I don't think it will be that much more dificult than a 107, at least not if you nail most waterstarts. You will get more "reserve" with a 107 for that jibe practice, but the Kobats are so super easy jibing boards that I personally think you will quicly learn that also on a smaller Kombat. If you still worry about going this small, get the 97 as a compromise. However, if you intend to use very large sails on this board, you might need to step up in size anyway. At your weight and skill level, I would say the 87 goes up to just above 6.0, then add about half a squaremeter for each board size. When you get more used to the board, you will be able to effectively load it up with a bit more sail. I'm 69 and easily sail the K87 with a 6.3.

Christhefish
28th September 2006, 06:06 PM
Hi

Thanks for the excellent reply, my sail range is 5.25m - 7.5m and I have to say I have been using the 6.5m and 7.5m alot this year with only marginal winds present so it looks like either the 96 or the 107, the 107 likes like the better choice to cope with thoose light wind situations where you have to work to get the board on the plane.

Chris

Ola_H
28th September 2006, 08:01 PM
With a 7.5 in your quiver I agree you would have to choose between the 97 and 107. Looking into the future, even if you get a (big) 107, you can always complement with a smaller wave board later for the real wave days. Used classis wave boards in your size tend to go pretty cheap...

Jean-Marc
30th September 2006, 04:35 AM
Chris,

You have 2 options depending on what fate your Carve 133 deserve :

1) If you keep the Carve 133, your 7.5 sail is going to be perfect in light wind with such a board, maybe adding a larger sail later if the quest for light winds starts to kick in... Then I would strongly suggest you consider a Kombat 87 with your 5.25-6.5 sails with your 65 kg. I'm also 65 kg and use a Kombat 86 with 4.2-6.9 sails and this is really a sweet luxury, much nicer than a Kombat 95 or a Carve 111 in fact, both being too large and bouncy with sails smaller than a 5.4 above 25 knots...

2) If you replace the Carve 133 with a big Kombat, then I would suggest a Kombat 107 with your 5.25-7.5 sail quiver. The wider tail of the Kombat 107 as compared to that of the Kombat 97 might be more efficient for those 7.5 sail's light wind days (same with Carve 111 BTW).

Cheers !

JM

PG
1st October 2006, 02:42 AM
Chris,
I wonder if you are actually looking for a smaller freeride board, or for a waveboard with occasional flat use.
It is not clear from your post if the swell you mention actually is proper breaking waves, and if these waves are suitable for backside or even frontside riding.
The K107 can work as a waveboard for a 90-100 kg sailor, but hardly for a 67 kg sailor. Then it will just be a freeride (with the exception of ultra light wind wavesailing, but it does not sound as if that would be your thing) for you. But it will be a suboptimal freeride.
I believe that what you need is a C111, with the capability to carry your 7.5 well, and be manageable with yout 5.25. This will be the best freeride board, with good jibing, with jumping, and with the capability to pull off some baside riding.
At your weight, when you really are going to do wavesailing, you anyhow need a smaller and more manouverable board like the K87 (or even clearly smaller).
But, if you keep your C133 for 7.5m sailing, then you should go directly for the K87.
Hard to give good advice as we know so little about where you actully sail...

Christhefish
2nd October 2006, 03:17 PM
Hi all

Thanks for the good advice, I sail mainly at Southend-On-Sea in the South East corner of England you may or may not have heard of this venue but it is famous for one thing "The Ray" this a large strip of fast flat water that works with any wind with south in it, Dave white managed a top speed of 47.31knots a few months back, and I have heard rumours he is going for the 50knots in the very near future on the Ray. When the tide does come in and the wind is above 15knots we do tend to get a big swell with the odd (small) wave, only when the wind is onshore and above 20knots do we see bigger waves, but you would probley not class this as wave sailing conditions just messy chop. I hope that helps a little to try and explain my local conditions.

I did manage to borrow a Kombat 97 wood to tryout on the weekend, and it was fantastic I was able to try it in the flat waters of the Ray and I was very surprised out the early planning potentional in such marginal conditions, then as the tide flooded in I was able to sail it in open water with small waves I love the fact that that it pops of small waves so easy great fun, I think I am sold!!!!!

Ola_H
2nd October 2006, 03:32 PM
Nice. I generalla think the Kombats offer more potential for you to grow on thann a Carve. ANother similar "performance" board could also be and S-type, but if you found the Kombat 97 nice (I'm not surprised, I love my 87) you now just have to think about wether to get the 97 or 107. If you can get by on the 97 in light wind, this will no doubt be a more allround solution.

Christhefish
3rd October 2006, 03:49 PM
Ok its all sorted I walked out of my local shop with a new shiny Kombat 97, just cant wait to try it out lets hope the forecast for the weekend stays good.

Any ideas on protecting the nose, as I did get catapulted on my carve a couple of times, although that was a long time ago. I know there are nose guards available but I was hoping not to use one if I could get away with it any ideas??????

Chris

Ola_H
3rd October 2006, 08:21 PM
There are special protective padding things you can put on the mast (below the boom). I've also seen people glueing some kind of EVO foam protector on the noses of their boards. Home made solutions like that can work. However, Starboard actually sells an item like this that is a perfect fit: see product no 13 on http://www.star-board.com/viewpage.php?page_id=11 . There is a link to a board compatibility chart. If your dealer don't stock these, maybe they can serve as an inspiration for a home made solution.

Jean-Marc
4th October 2006, 04:25 AM
Chris,

As Ola has suggested above, to prevent mast impact over the nose, I'd like to recommend the DaKine FW mast pad that you can fix on the mast below the boom with 5 plastic clips. You can adjust it upward or downward depending on the lenght of the nose and the mast-track position, unlike combined T-boom bra and mast pad. It's a bit tedious to fix it on the mast but at least there is very little chance you will loose it during a wash out in waves...

http://www.dakine.com/images/xlg/4200225_xlg.jpg

As a home-made solution, you can glue some footpad directly on the nose of your board.

http://groups.msn.com/windsurfgarage/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=1

It will surely protect the upper deck, but in case of a serious crash, the bottom of the nose will fracture...(didn't have the DaKine mast pad at that time).

http://groups.msn.com/windsurfgarage/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3

Cheers !

JM

Christhefish
6th October 2006, 09:58 PM
Hi

I have purchased a Maui magic boom bra, hopefully this will help to save the nose, if you do find a way to upload the photo of your Kombat 96 with a nose protector I would be intrested to see what it looks like.

chris

Christhefish
8th October 2006, 05:46 PM
Try this email address

chrithefish@hotmail.com

chris

GEM
10th October 2006, 12:04 PM
You've gotten terrible advice here. The K97 was the right call to match the C133 (and you did good). Jumping down to a K87 from a C133 is too big a jump (from ~72 down to ~58 cm width is too big, an 8 cm gap is better).

Now what you need is more fins. Get yourself two aftermarket fins (the SB stock fins are pretty good, but pale in comparison to aftermarket designs). I personally favor True Ames, but don't know if they're available in the UK.

Set up the C133 for light to moderate winds, planing 7.0 and lighter. More important in the fin selection is water conditions, which in this range don't lend themselves to much more than B&F / slalom on a C133. A big pointer, for light air, and a swept fin for ~7.5 are the right calls.

Then set up the K97 with fins for 6.5 and for 5.0 to 5.5, and you'll have two boards to cover a pretty huge wind range (5.0 to 8.0). The windier you get, the more you can steer toward wave designs - the fin with the K97 ought to be pretty good in high wind (if it's anything like my K96 stock fin). It's almost surely too small for 6.5, and you'll be rewarded for getting something a little bigger to suit the lighter wind end of this board's range.

In sum, with two proper sets of fins (a set for each board), you'll be very, very happy with what you've got. With the K87 and C133, I think you'd still have a gap in your quiver in the 6.5 range, no matter what fins you get.

GEM
10th October 2006, 12:08 PM
PS - a boom bra will not help you. Properly set up, the boom will be higher than the nose (if you are of average height and not really short in stature). If you want to protect the nose, the SB designed pad fitted for your board is the way to go.

Ola_H
10th October 2006, 03:12 PM
GEM, I don't know your weight and if you tried the K87, but it actually handles 6.5 (well, 6.3 in my case) very nicely with the right fin and just using widths as a sizing tool really does not tell much when comparing different types of boards (like Carve vs Kombat). My freestyle and Slalom boards have similar widths for example and cover VERY different ranges. In any case its kind of academic as Chris got he 97 (which is a good choice considering the info given).

The fin advice is excellent though and I will add a bit: The 07 Kombats come with a single crossover fin (except for the very first which still came with the two fins from 06). Its a Curtis design, kind of semi rake and sweep definitely more powerful than the Natural wave fins but a lot turnier than the 2006 freeride flow. I would say the 28 will handle a 6.5 on the K97 nicely, especially at 65 kilos. You will loose a bit in pure straight line blasting compared to the (bigger) freeride flow but the turning will be far better and this is why the new Crossover fin fits the character of the board better and complement the board nicely both with the straps set inboard and outboard. For smaller sails you might want to complement with a smaller (wave) fin. I love the Drake Natural wave myself (super flexy) and I think their almost a revolution in fin design when it comes to the range of sails each fin size can carry. For B&J:ish sailing you can safely go up a bit in size and I would say a 26cm Drake Natural handles 5.0-6.5, a 25cm handles 4.5-6.0, a 24, 4.0-5.5. So, a 25cm Drake Natural will for example be a pretty good fit for your sails while still offering some "reserve" for a smaller sail or maxed out conditions on the 5.25 (for proper waves with the 5.25, the 24 cm will be the best fit).

For the Carve, I suppose GEMs fin advice is spot on and the most important point he makes is that you will get A LOT more from both your boards if you get a few extra fins.

GEM
14th October 2006, 11:53 AM
Ola,

With all due respect, comparing a freestyle board, with a dinky fin designed to spin out and not go that fast so that you can do spocks and flakas and other new school stuff at moderate to low speed planing, to a full on slalom board, designed to rip cross and downwind maximally powered up at very high speeds and maintaing biting control in the jibes, and then saying that the width is irrelevant is one of the more egregious cases of comparing apples to oranges I've seen in a while. Moreover, the whole industry is increasingly noting the importance of width, a trend which I first caught with my Berky 295 back in ~1996, and so you're disputing that trend is kind of odd. If you'd compared Kombats to Evos, then you'd be on better ground, but you can't because in that comparison the size ranges are very similar.

So again, the question looms - what's a Carve good for? Blasting, carving, moderately challenging planing maneuvers (i.e., old school freestyle). Fins on top and bottom end, and a very good set up for the Carve part of a quiver is a C12x or C13x for that, reserving the 6.5 and down realm for more B&J / swell type sailing (i.e., the Kombat or Evo / Acid). Using SB's own rating sizes, the K9x and E9x are better suited to filling the gap at the 6.5 end than are the smaller sizes. Not that it can't be done on the 80 liter boards, but the 90 liter boards are just going to ride a bit better in (especially) the lulls. Far more sailors are rewarded by getting a bit bigger fin, a bit bigger board, and living with a slightly rougher ride than going the other way. This is especially so for neophytes to higher wind sailing.

Thus, I stand by my statement, using SB's OWN SPECS, your advice was off. I'm glad that he got the K97 because I think it'll suit him better and he'll ride it a lot more than he would a smaller board.

That said, I finally got to ride my own K96, on fresh water, with winds averaging 25 (mph) and gusts to mid 30's (measured on iWindsurf sensor). On this lake, swells were setting up at about .5 meters (my first time at this site, and given the reputation of Seneca Lake I was a bit disappointed - in such winds my usual location (wrong direction for this particular day) would have been 1.5 meter plus. When I got there, the wind was at it's peak, so I rigged a 4.7 and that ended up being a bit small, as most sailors were on 5.5's. Foostraps forward and inboard; mast base set about 49 cm in front of the forward straps. Equipped with a TrueAmes 10.25 (28 cm) Surfgrass set all the way forward in the box, the K96 handled very very nicely, only when the wind was at it's biggest did it get a bit bouncy. It was my first time on a legit wave board, but I'd studied pretty thoroughly and was able to do some small frontside / backwind off-the-lip aerials and cutbacks that got the attention of more experienced wave sailors, and I was definitely getting more air than everyone else despite being less powered. I also rode it with a 9.5 (25 cm) Surfgrass, and the extra fin size was definitely helpful in projecting up and down the swells and in getting upwind. With the bigger fin, I had no difficulty getting as far upwind as everyone else, though I suspect a better setup would have been a 5.5 and the smaller fin. I have a lot to learn to keep my weight forward on the bottom turns and cutbacks in the lulls - a bigger sail also would have helped keep me from stalling to a schlog at times. It's definitely a great board. I hope I get some more chances before the lakes turn to ice...

Ola_H
15th October 2006, 01:19 AM
GEM,

Nice that your getting some waves on the K96. Even though I'm spoiled when it comes to wave boards I still find the Kombat (87 in my case now) a real wave board indeed.

As for the sizing and advice given, as I said, its kind an academis diskussion now, but I dind't write that width is totally irrelevant. But I would still easily say that the "size advice" you can get from people with real experience on a given board beats an estimate based on widths. I agree, my apples and oranges was maybe extreme, but I also have examples from the other end of the spectrum. For example I rode protos for the PA 74 which were close to 2cm apart in width but sailed identically when it comes to things like sail size spectrum and general "size feel". These boards even had the exact same rocker and v. The interesting thing is that he two PA74s were designed to handle the same spectrum and they did - regardless of their widths. If another shaper used widths as as guideline and designed boards with 2cm width diffeerence to really perform differently, then they would. But, if you haven't riddent the boards or don't know how they are designed, you have very little chance of nailing their performance using a number (like width). And if you compare EVOs and Kombats, I would say my K87 handles bigger sails easier than my E80. More so than the 0.5 cm width difference would indicate.

So, while width may be as good or better than any other single number extracted from the board measurements the margin of error is still very large. And I don't dispute the trend - rather I think it is in fact just that - a trend. I can go deeper into this if you're interested (but won't do it in this point in case you're not)

In any case, my experience on the K87 is still that it handles a 6.3 beautifully at my weight and it will not exactly be any worse at a few kilos lighter. The published ranges are generally a big conservative for a sub 70kg rider. But again, as I also said in my originalt post, If you do want to either have some more reserve volume for "safety" or want to optimize your Kombat for bigger sails the K97 is a good choice and I agree it will handle lulls with a 6.5 a tad better than the 87 (but the difference is actually not that big if you're light).

Cheers,

GEM
17th October 2006, 10:21 AM
I agree there are many factors. Personally, I feel that a slightly bigger platform's advantages outweigh the disadvantages most of the time in most places, largely because most locales are more likely to have lighter wind than heavier wind. In my case, which was not the same for the original post in this thread, the reduced bouyancy / up force of fresh water is also a factor. based on prior experience, having ridden the 96 in fresh water, I suspect in 5.0-6.0 winds I would prefer the K87 over the K9x (agreeing with you). Bigger sails - my prefs would probably depend somewhat on the rig and on sea state.

Sadly, no more sailing this season as I was playing with my dog, we had a bit of an accident and I now have a broken finger. Oh well, next year...

Ola_H
17th October 2006, 12:20 PM
Sorry about the finger.

Cheers

Jean-Marc
22nd October 2006, 06:15 AM
GEM wrote:
You've gotten terrible advice here. The K97 was the right call to match the C133 (and you did good). Jumping down to a K87 from a C133 is too big a jump (from ~72 down to ~58 cm width is too big, an 8 cm gap is better).

GEM,

From a 65 kg rider experience to somebody my weight, I have no problem to toggle back and forth between a Kombat 86 (59 cm wide) with 6.9 sail/30 cm fin combo and a HS105 (77 cm wide) with 8.2 sail/32 cm fin combo during the last 15 months of practice. I would appreciate to learn why you think a 8 cm wide gap would be better than 18 cm ? I'm also curious to know your weight.

Cheers !

JM

GEM
27th October 2006, 08:42 AM
I thought I posted a reply.

I'm about 73 kg.

I've no doubt you can make the switch, but the difference in planing width is huge and I suspect you're a skilled sailor that can accomodate to big gaps (in your case, about 25% in width). I can do it too, and have. But the original post was from a relative beginner - bad scenario to advise big gaps. It's much better to let newcomers have smaller less challenging gaps, because the real determinant of how long they're windsurfers is how easy or difficult it is to progress.

As per the extensive discussion with Ola, there's a lot of factors and width is only one. But this person needed advice for their sailing level, and I personally think they will be a LOT happier on more closely sized boards than on what you are using (because a much higher percentage of jibes will be dry). On the other hand, an advanced sailor such as yourself will often ride a board to it's limit, even past the builder's rating, and by then be well within the range of a much smaller and different board. That works too.

So for the former, I'd recommend about a 12-15% difference in width (so that the sensations during the jibe have some semblance to the larger board), and the latter can do whatever they want to as they are doing something totally different.