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hans kleingeld
18th August 2006, 01:24 AM
Hi,

I tested a lot of slalomboards during the season. Also the sonic 85 and isonic105. The 85 really convinced my with 6.0 GTX and high wind conditions (20-30 Kts with gusts over 35 Kts) with the board staying controllable and very solid. The iSonic105 I tested with too small fins most of the time (32 cm) which didn't give a very proper view to me.

Which iSonic may be better for me (95 kg) in flat to choppy conditions for the Overdrive 6.5 for slalom and speedsailing? The bigger sail is an OD 7.5 and the smaller an OD 5.5 which work great!! The 7.5 will be used with my Falcon120 normally. The 5.5 I may use also on this board, but the 50 may look nice for the 5.5 and RS4 5.0:p!

nb: the site is working better and better at the moment, but I can get any details at this time. Does the 87 and 94 have slide cut outs as well?

nb: does the 50 also has any slalomaspects or you always have to walk back (with I normally do at Strand Horst in the Netherlands (also with large boards) after making a dozen of speedruns to much). How does it deal with small/larger chop (0.5 mtr<), what are the differences with the small isonics. Which sailsizes can the 50 handle easely?

Thanks in advance;)!

Ian Fox
18th August 2006, 08:07 AM
Hi Hans,

Welcome to the new site :)

"I tested a lot of slalomboards during the season. Also the sonic 85 and isonic105. The 85 really convinced my with 6.0 GTX and high wind conditions (20-30 Kts with gusts over 35 Kts) with the board staying controllable and very solid. The iSonic105 I tested with too small fins most of the time (32 cm) which didn&#39;t give a very proper view to me."

It&#39;s pretty fair to say the iS105 has been rather convincing in top level competitions to date, and a lot of times 32cm would have been the fin, so it really comes down to testing (or racing) the board tuned in optimal for the conditions you&#39;re using/testing it in. I guess the point made here is that (in the correct conditions) 32cm is a very good size for top end iS105 performance.

"Which iSonic may be better for me (95 kg) in flat to choppy conditions for the Overdrive 6.5 for slalom and speedsailing? The bigger sail is an OD 7.5 and the smaller an OD 5.5 which work great!! The 7.5 will be used with my Falcon120 normally. The 5.5 I may use also on this board, but the 50 may look nice for the 5.5 and RS4 5.0!"

If you want to new board to cover the 7.5m also, then the iS94 would be a good allround choice, more especially if you have a special smaller rocket for pure speed. If you decide to abandon the idea to use a 7.5m on this (new) slalom board, but maybe at the same time have the (new) slalom board also cover you for speed in medium (less than true epic) speed conditions as well, then the iS87 will be a very practical compromise and would certainly be Ok still with OD 5.5m
(by RS4 5.0 /95kg conditions, well, you can imagine, even the 87 is getting a bit more than required..).

nb: the site is working better and better at the moment, but I can get any details at this time.

Thanks, we are working on that bug, there is also a thread (iSonic- Widths) in AskTeam with iS details for short term.

"Does the 87 and 94 have slide cut outs as well?"
No, we tested but decided to not use these at this time in these models.

"nb: does the 50 also has any slalomaspects or you always have to walk back (with I normally do at Strand Horst in the Netherlands (also with large boards) after making a dozen of speedruns to much)."

Ok, well it depends a bit on the driver, but the boys in The PiT will tell you that I&#39;m not walking a lot, at least not while they are sailing by comparison. For 95kg, the iS50 has limited "slalom" potential but is definitely designed to be a very practical board out on the speed course, and to allow the rider to quickly, easily, efficently (not using excess energy walking or sailing) get back to the top and complete as many runs as possible in a session. Benefits of that are rather obvious :)
( a side note here for others is that for heavier riders especially, the iS50 does need some pretty good technique, moderate windy conditions and maybe some positive attitude to get the thing going, - it&#39;s NOT a F161 - but it WILL do it and when it does it&#39;s pretty sweet.
With a 95kg rider and 5.5m-6m sail , the iS50 will plane reasonably slow, as slow as 15 (even around 12) kts of BOARDSPEED (note! Board speed not windspeed) - which might seem and odd or unimpressive stat to most of you, but once you&#39;re on a true speed board trying to sail back upwind (and potentially thru chop) it&#39;s a very useful thing on a board with killer top end potential as well)

"How does it deal with small/larger chop (0.5 mtr<, what are the differences with the small isonics."

iS50 is designed for top speed in medium to perfect conditions (not just perfect), which in most good speed locations means rolling chop on broad course to (aprox) 30 cm in the speed run and more out the back sailing back up. At top speed it handles the speed course chop very well, on the sail back (in rougher chop ) the iS50 is very practical and "seaworthy" for asedicated speedboard, but it should NOT be viewed that the iS50 is killer fast thru open ocean chop or extreme confused chop (as often would be found in conditions where a 95kg rider is using a 50lt board ..) BTW, it IS killer fast in these conditions, emphasis on killer.:D

"Which sailsizes can the 50 handle easely?"
Basically the true speed range 4.0m - 6.0-6.+ m (pure race sail sizes) for adult top level speed use.
For 85-95kg rider, the sweetspot will be 5,5m (5x-6.0m currently I&#39;m using CodeRed 6.1m very effectively, with on water weight 100kg), but my ideal size is probably 5.1m/5.6m.
An interesting aspect is that with a very well tuned sail (around 5.6m, for my size) this board will provide enormous practical (speed) range over a range of conditions with virtually the same setup.

Hope this helps answer these questions but welcome further discussion/s.

Cheers ~ Ian

hans kleingeld
18th August 2006, 08:58 AM
Thanks a lot for your comments Ian;)!

From your marks some things become quit clear to me. For realistic reasons a 2 board solution will work much better for me.

1. The 5.5 and 6.5 overdrive sizes are in the sweetspot of the iS87 and compromises the 5.0 RS4

1. The 6.5 OD is in the sweetspot of the iS94, 7.5 at the edge of the sweetspot, 5.5 and 5.5 are (too) small with the iS94

If remarks stated above are true the iS87 will be the better option for me for the OD 5.5 en RS5.0 (maybe on the edge). I didn&#39;t try it&#39;s precedessor with a 6.5, but the 6.0 GTX worked very nice.

It appears to me that not very much has changed when you compare the sonic85 with the iSonic87, but this may be misleading while I don&#39;t know anything about the details. Which improvements may I expect on the water to feel and see (GPS) compared to the sonic85. I can imagne the differences might be small, but it is nice to know how 1 year development may work out:)!

When I take a rough guess the best board option with an OD 7.5 is the iSonic101?

OK, thanks in advance. Time to go to bed now after a heavy thundershower woke me up in the middle of the night and made me put on the PC:D.

Ian Fox
18th August 2006, 10:08 AM
Hi Again Hans,

To further reply your comments :
1. The 5.5 and 6.5 overdrive sizes are in the sweetspot of the iS87 and compromises the 5.0 RS4

Correct, especially for 95kg speed/slalom.

1. The 6.5 OD is in the sweetspot of the iS94, 7.5 at the edge of the sweetspot, 5.5 and 5.5 are (too) small with the iS94

Correct, especially for 95kg speed/slalom.

If remarks stated above are true the iS87 will be the better option for me for the OD 5.5 en RS5.0 (maybe on the edge).

Correct.

I didn&#39;t try it&#39;s precedessor with a 6.5, but the 6.0 GTX worked very nice.

It appears to me that not very much has changed when you compare the sonic85 with the iSonic87, but this may be misleading while I don&#39;t know anything about the details. Which improvements may I expect on the water to feel and see (GPS) compared to the sonic85. I can imagne the differences might be small, but it is nice to know how 1 year development may work out!

Well both versions basically share a similar rocker and have theoretical similar top speed, however what we developed into iS87 /94 is the general iS trait of more control and easier riding at the top end/limit, in both flat water and extreme chop, which improved in iS87/94. Marginally, not quantum, but enough to notice with reasonable experience. Nett result is a a board that is more fast more often (or more correctly, able to be sailed closer to theoretical max a higher % of time, which in real world makes a board faster in most situations, even if the design/theory vMax doesn&#39;t change)

When I take a rough guess the best board option with an OD 7.5 is the iSonic101?

Correct for you in this case (c/w iS87/94 options) if you also want good 7.5 range for general slalom racing and/or "blasting" as well as doubling as a light wind speed conditions board.
(iS101 is a really verstatile size, alot of bottom end but still plenty of control and range when really overcooked at the top end- esp with bigger riders)

For others please note : The typical (theoretical) allround use sweetspot for a 95kg rider with 7.5m is actually more like iS111 than even iS101, however in Han&#39;s case I know he really wants a board choice with heavy emphasis on speed rather than slalom; (and he can use even iS94 with 7.5m in that mode). In true slalom racing, reacceleration back to top speed around marks etc and maintaining a high average speed (compared to theoretical vMax only) are key factors in selecting the optimum board and in most cases would indicate a board one size (or more) larger than for the same size rider/sail in "speed" mode. Same applies to recreational and general slalaom board sizing/use ; a more moderate approach to small meaning fast yields practical allround benefits for a general user ; a true speed maniac is prepared to compromise more heavily than the average user. And maybe walk (or swim !!) more often ;)

Cheers ~ Ian

hans kleingeld
18th August 2006, 02:46 PM
Thanks a lot for your extended answer Ian;),

It&#39;s right that due to my emphases towards speed, but may be more important the very good speeding conditions at my home spot (Beach Horst in the Netherlands) I don&#39;t worry about windlulls and deep water. When the wind is too little and the board can&#39;t float we simple look around for gusts and stay in knee deep water. This makes speedsurfing very relaxing at times. We don&#39;t have to care to be forced to swimming in deep water:o when wind has gone (unless you go far out in2 mtr deep water which can happen sometimes after an enthousiastic speedrun:p:()!.

SimonH
19th August 2006, 06:53 PM
Ian.

What isonic proto were you using when you when you cracked a 42 knot average on the gps-speedsurfing site.

Which isonic would marry well with the sonic 100 as a high wind change down?

Thanks

Simon

Ian Fox
20th August 2006, 08:18 AM
Q1="What isonic proto were you using when you when you cracked a 42 knot average on the gps-speedsurfing site".

A1= The session of Feb 23, 2006 (iSonic X - as it was unnamed at that time) was the 46.5 proto, that exact proto was UPS&#39;d to BKK, cosmetically repaired and then used to master iS50 2007).
BTW, the fin in that session also is the proto for the Drake Speed 230.


Q2 ="Which isonic would marry well with the sonic 100 as a high wind change down?"

A2= Really depends on the intended usage for the hi wind changedown. If it&#39;s open water slalom racing or hi wind blasting in anything other than very flat water (rare, unless you&#39;re on a speedstrip), the iS87 is the "S100 changedown" choice for sure.
There is definite performance merit in not going too small for hi wind/extreme wind open water board size if you need to deal with significant/confused/harsh chop at speed.
If you wanted to go from S100 slalom race/slalom blast to (more) true pure speed conditions (and ride style), iS50 is possible but there is minimal practical overlap. (how much depends on the rider&#39;s ability to get the iS50 going early - or not- and that can also be influenced by "quality" of conditions and/or location as well as rider variables weight/skill/experience/attitude/etc.

Hope that all makes sense ?

Let us know if you&#39;d like more info/detail etc.

Cheers ~ Ian

Philip
21st August 2006, 11:49 AM
Interesting discussion. How about the same sail sizing and wind conditions for a 70kg sailor? Would the 101 still be the best all round board for the average sailor or would the next smaller sized board be the viable choice.

Ian Fox
21st August 2006, 07:12 PM
Hi Philip,

Sorry, quite a few sail sizes/wind conditions mixed in this discussion.

In general, yes the iS101 is a good allround choice for a lighter rider, however that choice would move the sweetspot for that board(sail) combo down the wind range c/w a 95kg rider on the same setup.
(Setting sail size aside - when it&#39;s ideal for 95kg on iS101, the 70kg guy is most likely better on iS94 and so on.).

If you clarify your sail range, wind+water conditions/ intended ride style (slalom race/blasting/speed) etc for this board a bit more, we&#39;ll be able to provide a more accurate recommendation.

Thanks and Cheers ~ Ian

ed sinofsky
22nd August 2006, 06:28 AM
Hi Ian

Could you tell us more about the &#39;drake" 230. Is this a version of one of Boogie&#39;s C3 designs? I love those fins, and now that he has moved, I think someone should produce these masterpieces. Will they be available separately? The control and slippery feel of the X1 is unreal........

thanks: I am one of your admirers, both of your speed and spirit.

ed sinofsky:p

Philip
22nd August 2006, 06:31 AM
Hi Ian,

Thanks for your reply. The sails that work best for me in my local freshwater and flatwater spot with its gusty wind conditions, are 6.5 and 7.8m. I seek out winds averaging about 18 knots. Enjoy close and broad reaching, gybing and the challenge of going fast to windward (indeed where I sail this is pretty well mandatory anyway).

steveC
22nd August 2006, 06:53 AM
Hi Ed,

A comment you made above interested me, and I was hoping you could expand a bit, if possible. You said:

"I love these fins, and now that he has moved, I think someone should produce these masterpieces."

Has Boogie turned to a different focus other than windsurfing fin design? I know that he was one of the premier designers and manufacturers of windsurfing fins. While I don&#39;t have any of his fins, I&#39;m aware that they were well made and very esoteric in nature. Can you expand on this?

Ian Fox
22nd August 2006, 12:09 PM
Hi Philip,

Thanks, that extra info makes a difference ; gusty inland conditions, freshwater and flat water all are classic indicators for "one board size bigger" (than typical). With a sailing style also emphasizing upwind range and speed, that is another classic pointer to taking the bigger iS101 rather than smaller iS94 option. In that mode there are a number of advantages to iS101. If you were in solid, fully filled in wind conditions, flat water and going for broad, downwind speed, it would be the other story. With 6.5m and 7.8m, you are certainly well in the iS101 sweetspot (esp considering all of your specific conditions etc.) Advance with confidence.

Hi Ed,

Sure. Yes, the 230 is definitely based on a lot of input from C3 speed fin development, and here (and on the fin) we&#39;ll give Boogie the credit for that ! Basically most of the hi speed testing for the iSonic X / iSonic 50 and other derivative protos has been done using fins either of C3 manufacture or based heavily on the C3 concept. We made a number of versions in BKK and trialled them all specifically at ThePiT. The pure custom fins are very impractical to reproduce in "production"; yes, we tried but it really is such a personal craft and design tolerances are so specific and fine that it is very hard (near impossible) to translate perfectly. The production 230 is a hybridized version, built using production moulds, materials and custom layups, falling short of the full custom (C3) technology and finish, but optimized to give a very good performance in the iS50. The "esoteric" (steveC) nature of those fins is bound to be a little controversial, even problematic to some users, or conditions- and for that reason it was decided to also supply a more regular small SlalomPro28 fin additionally with each is50, which gives owners both an option and/or the advantage of a regular fin for more conventional or marginal condition use - plus the bonus of the speed fin if/when they really want to push it. ;)

Hi steveC,

Check the user list (boogie). Yep. That&#39;s the one. And still very involved in windsurfing, design and carbon etc. he&#39;s still very much involved - although a lot less public than the NZ days. And yes, he now lives (short term) in Switzerland and no he doesn&#39;t work for AHD. But that was a good joke. We&#39;ll leave it to him to comment further (or not) as he chooses. "Well made" and "esoteric" are definitely the right words.

Cheers ~ Ian

Philip
22nd August 2006, 03:51 PM
Thank you Ian. Your guidance is much appreciated;)

ned_321
24th August 2006, 07:28 PM
Hi Ian,

Still some questions about the iSonic 50.
BTW: I currently have a Missile II.

What is the influence of the difference in shape of the iSonic (compared to other serial-build speedboards) on board behaviour?
On the products page it says the tail is wider and squarer, and max width is narrower. So the tail is straighter.

Small slalom/speed boards can differ on how "free" they are on the water.
Some brands are "skitterish" ie very free but also nervous. Other boards are more locked-in. On a scale from loose to locked-in; Exocet often described very locked-in; Starboard traditionally looser but still quite locked; F2 and Fanatic very loose.
IMO this determines the degree to which you can just close your eyes and "put-the-pedal-to-the-metal" or need to be ultra-attentive.

How would you describe the most striking differences in characteristics between iSonic 50 and the other serial-produced speedboards?

Ian Fox
28th August 2006, 02:42 PM
Hi NED321,

With the iS50 we have a very efficient (aspect ratio) on the back (planing) area of the board; this is combined with a very secure and balanced longitudinal trim, especially at speed. I&#39;m a bit hesitant to say the iS50 is loose, but a defining characteristic is the ability to absolutely hammer this board as hard as you can,especially in less than perfect conditions. While iS50 will be capable of being competitive on The Ditch, the primary objective was to maximize competitive speed in "real world" speed conditions ;one of the key design criteria is to deliver serious control at top end, with the focus on a strong ability to eat (speed course) chop fully (or over) lit without disturbing the rider too much (physically) or their concentration from more significant tasks at hand.. Those familiar with the flat trim of the larger iS boards already released would appreciate the concept of distilling the iS type ride into a speed board.
In testing the iS showed significant "chuckability" at serious speed, certainly not something you would consider to normally try - or even rate on a speed board, but definitely something it can deliver - and there are many situations in real world speed where that is a very useful feature - and advantage if you really want to push the envelope and live to tell the tale.

Despite its small/er size (c/w Warp, M-2 etc), the iS also has very comparable early planing, good upwind angle (not a core speed feature but again very useful on the day.)

Yes, no doubt iS will cruise 40kts with your eyes fully shut ~ and even more with them open. In general, it is not hypersensitive to trim angle, however being 1) a fairly small board and 2) basically flat bottom, there is definitely some ultimate top end gain by being ultra attentive to the trim angle. (that&#39;s to say, we could make it even less sensitive to absolute trim angle for some small loss of efficency, but, hey, in the end, it&#39;s more about speed than casual blasting..)

Cheers ~ Ian

ned_321
29th August 2006, 07:05 PM
Hi Ian,

Thanks for your thorough response.

One additional question: iSonic 50 vs iSonic87 for speed.

I sails mostly at Strand Horst NL which (as you probably know) is an easy speed-spot. Lighter winds than coastal speedspots but flatter water (when the weed is there). My weight 88 kgs.

Up to a certain windspeed, small(ish) slalomboards are faster than pure speedboards.
Considering flat water, from what windspeed do you expect (or know) the iSonic 50 to be faster than the iSonic 87?

Ian Fox
2nd September 2006, 01:00 PM
Hi Ned 321,

The iS50 will be competitve in pure speed from aproximately 20 kts + for your weight. The threshold (crossover) is obviously influenced by water conditions and wind "quality" (how solid) at that speed, plus of course the rider&#39;s skill/tuning etc.

As an estimate, these factors could influence the threshold +/- 2kts, I would be very suprised if you were not faster (in pure speed) on the iS50 by 22 (true) kts windspeed. Flat water will allow higher top end speeds, so at these higher speeds the effective apparent wind speed in the speed run will be higher, and thus the isS50&#39;s efffective threshold can be (a little) lower ambient wind in super flat conditions. Make sense?

iS50 will be at the ESM for test/trial etc courtesy of Martijn from Fox Sports, so hopefully you get a chance to check it our first hand..

Cheers ~ Ian