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Unregistered
15th September 2008, 03:07 PM
Hey Check out the latest Statement from Svein on the Formula One Design

Dear all.

I participated in LA 1984, the first Olympic games of windsurfing. My sailing then extended 10 years on the PWA tour, competing on race boards, slalom boards and in the wave discipline as well. I later started Starboard, which has been the windsurfing board market leader for 6 years in a row.

The reason for my letter is that I would like to share the following with you:

When the Formula windsurfing class asked us to work with them on a Formula One design concept for the Olympics, I had to think about it long and hard as I was believing that we needed a light wind alternative, a set of equipment that could also work in 2- 5 knots, thus energize all the light wind areas in the world. Then my mind turned to the IMCO class.
This class had equipment that worked great in light winds. The IMCO class was very much marketed and heavily supported by the national federations for 12 years, yet the day it no longer had a Olympic medal, it was proved that the class was “artificial”, as no one continued to participate in it. That proved to me that at this stage in time, the majority of windsurfers that wish to compete on an Olympic style course, are mainly interested in competing in planing conditions. I like to compete in light winds as well, but I am in a small minority today and must accept that.

The RSX was “artificially” born, the equipment style selected was never raced in large fleets, medals were made available, the national support was made available and a limited amount of sailors will participate until the class will be taken off the Olympic program and then most likely disappear just like IMCO did.

This “artificial” participation is what we want to avoid, to stop the decline of participation in Olympic windsurfing classes. We want to propose racing on a style of equipment that has drawn more competitors than RSX or IMCO over the last 8 years, and still does.
The FW class has more international competitors despite the fact that it has no Olympic medal and no national association support, thus it has become popular because the kit is what most racers would like to compete on today. Further, I would have liked to see a class where different manufacturers could have equipment available, but frozen for 4 years at the time.
We however understood that this is still to early for ISAF to accept, so we happily gave our support to the FOD program, and our goal is very simply:
Create an Olympic class that draws participants not only because it’s Olympic, but because it’s a class sailed on equipment that sailors actually prefer to race on.

Thanks for your support.

Svein Rasmussen

C249
16th September 2008, 04:01 PM
It would be interesting to see the evidence for the claim that most racers want to sail planing boards. The claim has been made repeatedly, but it's never been backed up with proof.

Should intelligent adults be expected to just nod their head and accept claims without proof, or should we be given the facts so we can judge the claims?

Should ISAF just accept the claims without being given the numbers?

Why not give the numbers to back up the claim?

A while ago, I added up the number of competitors in the following events;

United Kingdom Windsurfing Association national circuit.

US national rankings

US national titles

French national rankings (excluding marathon and Raceboards as I didn't know whether the RBs were hybrids or not, and marathon races are arguably different to regular course races)

German national rankings

Australian titles, last two years.

Kona One rankings.

The numbers indicated that of regular course racers:-

514 sailed FE or FW.

About 1630 sailed hybrids (mainly T293s but not counting the Olympic RSX circuit)

About 990 sailed longboards

Regular slalom etc type racing is small in Germany, Australia, the USA, fairly small in the UK I think, and I'm not sure about France. The vague ideas I can get from the Netherlands indicate that FW is not dominant in numbers, while in Hong Kong raceboards seem to dominate.

These figures are nothing like accurate. They are probably quite different from sales, because in some classes boards last in top condition for many years.

However, with the greatest of respect, surely even these imperfect figures are better evidence of what people are actually racing than claims that seem to be backed by no available evidence.

If the FOD bid backers have evidence to back their claim that most racers race shortboards (assuming they mean regular racers) then why don't they release them to us?

If they don't have a good analysis of worldwide numbers of competitors then how do they know they are right?

Should we be accepted to simply accept claims about an important aspect of the sport, if we are not given any proof?


If the fact that the IMCO died quickly after it got dropped from the Games indicated that most racers want to sail a planing-only board, then why do so many people race big boards at national level?

Maybe the death of the IMCO showed that going Olympic hurts a type of class. After all, since the IMCO was dumped, there have been a whole bunch of new longboards and the third new raceboard (Equipe 3) is on its way. So the raceboard class almost died when it was Olympic, now it seems to be reviving..... does FW want to risk going the same way?

Maybe it won't, but can the bid's supporters give us some evidence why the FOD won't hurt the FW class in the same way that the Lechner killed the D2 class, the Tornado cat
killed the open B Class, etc?

Unregistered
16th September 2008, 07:09 PM
Hi guys,
The next OG will happen in a windy place, OK.
Everybody wants a planning board, OK.
BUT, and after? We don't know where the 2016 OG will happen, and if they chose a light wind venue like China we go through the same process again and again. And IOC and ISAF will have to chose an equipment suited for this light wind venue. Is it worthy to expend money, effort and everything else to have an equipment for ONLY 4 YEARS? Have you thought about that? I'm a Formula racer, but I don't know if it's the best way to go, I think the Olympic windsurfing needs stabilty on equipment for a longer period.
Thanks, good winds.

Unregistered
17th September 2008, 01:10 AM
Formula would have easily managed a series of races (10 + Medal Race) at the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games, with 3 days of racing completed on the fin (planning upwind) with the RS: X.

The only format that needs to be adapted is the maximum number of races per day, which is currently 3 on the RS: X (2 in non-planning conditions)

If this number was increased to 4 races per day (perfectly viable on the Formula as it is not as physically as intense as an RS: X due to the board actually wanting to plane and not requiring force to do so i.e pumping) then a series would easily be achieved, just 2 days of 7 knots + in the entire schedule would allow 8 races, bring that up to 3 days planning and 10 races + a medal race (same day) would be no problem.

Unregistered
17th September 2008, 09:29 AM
I just spoke to the manufacturing facility of windsurfers for most of the world.

While they are not at liberty to comment on exact numbers, they were willing to say that for longboards, the hype is not matched by the volume; even as of now, the total number of longboards is far less than the number of SUPs, and that they cannot foresee that the longboards will increase significantly unless the weight issue can be resolved.

I specifically asked about the longboard Kona claimed to be the world's biggest selling board model/type, and they said under no circumstances could they see that such a claim could be supported.

I remain not entirely convinced that formula is the single best format for the windsurfer at the olympics and I agree with (presumably) C249 that more research is required. However, I certainly don't think that the RSX or longboards are a better solution. I do know that even 2-3 years ago, the trial formula boards that Starboard were working on planed up unbelievelably early; and presume they are even more early now.

With regards to shortboard racing, the total number of racers in Le Defi type events (almost all shortboards) is something like 600. Add in a few more slalom events (and formula is a shortboard of sorts similar to the larger slalom boards) and I think it would be tough to see how longboarding could be more popular, but it is a number we need to see.

I presume starboard must look at their longboard numbers (as do all the brands except possibly Kona) and roll their eyes at the amount of work put in vs units sold. They took their longboard development very very seriously for several years and probably still do.

Philip
17th September 2008, 10:40 AM
Rather than tooing and froing about matching gear to location it beats me why sailing can not have its own Olympic venue separated in time and place from the track and field venues. That is what the snow sports do so well. In this way we get to see fast action and presumably far better TV coverage (like close to zero normally here in Australia under the present arrangements). But I suppose the governing committee of such things won't want to do any such thing.

Unregistered
17th September 2008, 02:52 PM
actually they already do, in China the main events were in Beijing; sailing was miles away; ditto for Korea.

I guess the only issue is should windsurfing be away from the rest of the sailing classes?

Everyone wants wind, just a matter of ISAF actually representing the interests of the sailing community by pushing for higher wind spots rather than accepting low wind spots.

That said, LA and Greece were drifters, and Korea and China both had decent breeze (despite the forecasts).

Greece was probably one of the worst spectacles for windsurfing in that last race (held in like 1 knot), but every since Olympics since LA (and I would have to check) has had enough wind to race formula OD and fit in 8 races.

After all theoretically both tornado and 49er have a 6 knot minimum also AFAIK.

To be honest, other than the carnage of the 49ers on TV, we didn't get much here either (Thailand). Sailing remains somewhat of a niche sport, not helped by the air rowing antics in Greece which just looks wrong (although completely part of the game and reflective of the fitness required in one of the most athletic sports inthe games).

C249
17th September 2008, 06:09 PM
Interesting, poster at 2.29 - Kip?

I too was surprised at the fairly low number of Kona Ones that Patrice claimed on the net, after the claim about Kona being the top selling board was made. He spoke of some 2-3,000 over about three years compared to FW's official figure of 1,000 per year, and IMHO it's the only real mass market board around; Serenitys and RBs are surely only a minority interest. However, as we both agree until figures are available, all windsurfers are at the mercy of marketing talk whichever way we look. If the figure of 80,000 in total p.a. is correct and there's a few dozen different boards.....

I don't know about how much hype longboards have actually had - there's not all that much of the SB site, for example, and look at the huge amount of hype for other disciplines!

About weight....well, as I've said before all is relative, your S 6.5 is superlight by some standards and bloody heavy from the viewpoint of a sailor of a 18" shorter Sharpie! If boardsailers cannot lift an 18kg board when sea kayaking old age pensioners lift 28kg sea kayaks then surely we've lost the macho and extreme contest! :-)

I'm not actually in favour of the RSX in any way, apart from the fact that there are many national authorities who are scratching for cash and do not want to have to try to build an entire new class (which may or may not work where they are) just to cater for the wishes of a few people. And frankly, I got sick of dung being flung at longboards when IMCO was in..... wouldn't want to go back there unless it was as half of a F42 style setup.

Re numbers - the official FW class reports to ISAF shows numbers that are all over the place, and for several years the class could not even guess at the numbers built - so how accurate are their guesses? They said in 08 there's 5000 boards existing, although considering that for two years the class reported that 5,000 were built each year, and there were no estimates for three years around that time, god knows how accurate the estimate is!

Neither the FW or Funboard classes report more than "50+" sailors in their ISAF reports, whereas even IMCO lists more than that.......all that seems to indicate is how rubbery all the figures are.

As far as Defi Wind etc goes - as far as I can make out, Defi is included in the "Longue Distance" windsurfer rankings in the FFV (French national federation). The Long distance ranking list includes 670 men and 71 women. Raceboard includes 328 men and 94 women, Formula 111 men and 12 women. So yes, slalom does get more people than raceboard, but it also gets more than FW.

Whether there are regular slalom racers in many other countries is another story entirely; here in Oz there's one big slalom race but I think that's it. Are there any big slalom races in the USA? I understand there's none in Germany. It's not huge in the UK, apparently. And how do you equate 200+ guys who each do about 1 race per year compared to 140 guys who each do about 120 races per year, or 55 guys who do 50+ races per year????

Hell, I love slalom and I reckon it should be in the Games if practical, so I'm just agreeing that unless we get some decent numbers to see where our sport is, how can one class claim to know what all the world's racers want to see in the Games?

Phillip - the location of the sailing is a decision of the host city, I believe. As Kip pointed out, sailing is normally at a different location - look at when the main games were in Beijing, Atlanta, Montreal, Tokyo, London, Berlin, Athens, Mexico City, Moscow, Montreal, etc etc etc.

And looking better on TV is not a major plus for sailing - even if we got something like (if my memory of reading the last IOC Olympic Programme Commission report is correct) 12 times as much TV as we currently get, sailing as a whole would get less TV than softball or baseball which have both been dumped from the Games.

When surfing, rugby, baseball, softball etc cannot get or stay in the Games, how much right does a minor section of sailing have to dictate terms?

Unregistered
17th September 2008, 06:10 PM
That should have read that the Kona One is the only mass market LONGboard around...

Philip
18th September 2008, 07:47 AM
c249 and post #7 make sound comments about venues - sailing overall it is true is a niche sport and WS within that, and as you point out wind can and will deliver (or not) the unexpected. All of which of course complicates equipment selection for the Games. Since the equipment may or may not be what the average sailor uses (indeed if there is an 'average' user anyway) it may come down to what the Olympic level athletes prefer - I wonder whether there have been any surveys of past, present and feeder groups.

fran4065
19th September 2008, 07:03 PM
in 1984 close to 500000 Boards were sold in the year...
Now we are around 40000, twelve time less...
More precise: yearly sales figures from the french market:
1984: 80000 board sold
1998: 20000 sold (the daggerboard-boards were starting to disapear from the offer of most of the brands, and they were ignored by all the magazines for the last 10 years: "daggerboard = beginner without talent")
2004: 11640 sold
2005: 14342 sold, (+25%!!!) mostly because the willing to offer more easy boards like the tecno 283 and 293 and the OD hybrids with...a daggerboard (shame!)

To be point out: the same year 2005, only 151 extreme boards (Formula AND wave) were sold!

That is the point: in the last years of 80, and until now, all the magazines are promoting only the extreme boards and practice (less than 5% of the sales), and ignoring the other practice (95% of the market).
Absolutly discouraging...
It is the human default to be a predator: when the concept of only-planning board appeared, it was not sufficiant to have new form of practices (slalom, speed and waves): the previous one must be killed!

No care for the mass of customers who just want to sail, or race, or enjoy "the all wind and going everywhere (upwind, downwind, etc) practice", or live in a little wind area, or have to get in water in a deap bay, with the wind blowing half a mile away, or living inshore and practicing on lakes, etc etc... all this stupid mass who count for more than 90% of the market!

Now the discussion is about having the Olympic Games on Formulas, (less than 151 sold in France (take it as a panel) out of 14342 boards sold : 1%!).

If we speak of media interest, what will be more popular: a spectacular (if windy enough) Formula olympic class, spectacular, but practiced by few hundreds through the world; or a (said) not spectacular longboard (Kona or other), but practiced by hundreds of thousands (in the 80's) through the world?

If the willing to kill the popular practice was not amplified year after year by all the magazines, we would be millions on water... sailing longboards 380 to 330cm with daggerboards, any day, windy or not, AND anywhere!

And the concept of the next OG boards would not be such a discussion!

Sailing a longboard is still the first in number practiced, despite the zero promotion of the concept, despite the poor quality of the production, despite the close to zero event offered to the concept, and if any, without media coverage!

Promoting the Formula as the only (why not two concepts: longboard and shortboard?) Olympic game wind-surf board is just one more step to kill the industry.

Sorry for my bad english!

steveC
19th September 2008, 11:42 PM
I find all this gloom and doom stuff about traditional raceboard sailing getting left on the corner and abandoned in the vision for the 2012 Olympic Games a bit overly dramatic. When you look back, raceboards and their like, including the hybrid RS-X, have had all the time in the sun at past Olympics. Why not inject a bit of change in the Olympics by embracing a planing design for once? I seriously doubt that such an opportunity would be the death of windsurfing or the industry. Why not be more positive and supportive?

Regarding the time in the past when windsurfing was a huge fad, and the number of folks participating was at an all time high, things ultimately come back down to earth and center on those most interested in the sport. All those with a shallow interest and commitment just can't be relied on. Certainly this predictable drop to reality leaves less folks participating, but it's more reflective overall of the actual core interest in the sport. It's very important to remember that folks over time will enter and exit the sport, with those that are truly dedicated hanging in for the long haul.

The doors are currently wide open to all types of windsurfing opportunities, bridging a broad spectrum of ideas and forms of what the sport can be. Folks get involved because they see the vision and want to participate, and as I see it, nobody is being held back and denied access. The one thing that you can't do is force folks to windsurf.

249
20th September 2008, 03:24 PM
Steve, an RSX (and it's not a board I personally like at all) planes. It jumps, hits 30 knots +...of course it planes. You cannot do that in a 10 footer at displacement speed.

That's the weird thing about this term "planing board". It's inherently untruthful, because just about every board ever built (including D2s) planes.

So you ask "why not be more positive and supportive"? Well, look at the negative arguments the FOD supporters use.

The FOD bid says that "racers" want planing boards - that is (as far as I can see, and the FOD supporters have not come up with a shred of evidence for their view) negative to existing Olympic boards because it says "racers" don't want them.

Look at KP's blog - he says it's time for a "real windsurfer" in the Games, meaning FOD. Sorry, is he suggesting that he and his mates have the right to re-christen RSXs, IMCOs and other windsurfers? It's a silly argument anyway, because the term "windsurfing" comes from longboards.....those who feel the 'planing boards' are a different sport can get their own name for the sport, like boardsailing.

We don't have to all be positive and supportive of those who are themselves so negative and anti other disciplines that they say they are not even part of the sport.

If shortboarders were positive and supportive of other styles, that would be great. They are not so it's hypocritical for them to demand that of others.

The oft-quoted argument "it was all just a fad" was addressed at the SB dealer meeting onk the west coast of the USA, according to a SUP site, where Svein said that windsurfing had dropped much more than other sports normally do after an initial boom.

The doors are NOT wide open to all sorts of windsurfing opportunities when sailors sponsored by a major manufacturer are saying of other disciplines that they are not "real windsurfing". KP is sponsored because he is influential, and he is using that influencing to say that hybrids (not a board I like myself) are not even part of the sport.

The doors are NOT wide open when a major manufacturer is saying "racers" want a particular type of board in the Games, when most racers appear not to sail that type of board and the manufacturer has produced no evidence.

Svein Rasmussen
20th September 2008, 06:46 PM
Hi Post 13.

All windsurfing surely is windsurfing at its finest , but windsurfers have themselves chosen that planing hulls without daggerboards is what most of of them want to windsurf with nowadays.
That is what all sales statistics clearly states, concerning the industry numbers.

Further ,FW is the largest windsurfing class today ,thus its quite fair to have similar equipment represented in the Olympics.

We have seen daggerboard boards in the Games since 1984. It would be refreshing to see what the majority of current racers race on , also being also used in the Games.

I believe that there is a good chance that long boards and light winds sailing will come back, ( we had some great fun in 2 knots on some new equipment today) so what we are proposing is a reflection of the current status, instead of the past,, but yet accept that the future quite possible will be different again.

Most racers are competing on FW boards today and this is not what a manufacturer is saying , but what the different class statistics prove.

Matthewb
20th September 2008, 08:16 PM
svein i dont know what the rest of the worlds statistics are like but if you go to the UK windsurfing association results page-

http://ukwindsurfing.com/results/

You can look for yourself as to the participation in the various fleets.

In the UK 2 things are clear.

1 Formula type boards ( or planing only racing boards) are NOT the most popular type of racing board. Daggerboard windsurfers are the most popular- by FAR. ( all this when there havnt even been any longboards commercially available for several years- My 15 year old Cat is worth £600..........)

2 These national events are racing in the uk for formula. Formula does not have any local or regional represantation at all in the uk. Boards with daggerboards do have some regional and local racing( but not much) Furthermore Formula stand NO CHANCE of developing local or regional racing because nobody want to sail with huge sails and from a club context the most important thing about a wednesday evening race is that when you make the effort to turn up, you actually race as opposed to twiddle your thumbs if the wind is light.

Formula has NOT proven itself to be a popular racing class in the UK in terms of participation, and the uk is a relatively windy place.

I think you are making a mistake with this initiative.

steveC
21st September 2008, 01:48 AM
I thought I might clarify my earlier post just a bit, and include some added thoughts.

First, when I was referring to a planing design, I should have added the qualification that Svein so rightly noted in his post above. A planing design, sans the daggerboard.

Also, in my comment about "the doors being open to all types of windsurfing opportunities", my thought was about participation in the sport, and not specific to the racing issue, which really, only a very small percentage of folks actually do. Without a doubt, the windsurfing industry leaders have expanded their model lines to cover just about any view or reality in the sport. So windsurfing can be performed in virtually no wind at all the way to the high wind extremes, and on top of that, the industry has also presented a broad based model lines for all the major disciplines. You can pick light to heavy wind wave boards, freestyle, slalom, speedsailing, freeride, etc.

However, because the model lines are so expansive, it's difficult for retailers to stock everything. In light of this, it's often incumbent on the customer to make a choice and order the type of board they want. While it might be argued that this scenario poses some difficulty promoting the sport, it should be remembered that there's a distinct division of labor/business concept in play here between the brand's manufacturing efforts, the regional distributors and the local/regional retailers. Based on the demand in any given area or locale, a retailer can offer a stock of equipment most suited to the customer base. For a special interest sport like windsurfing, it makes sense.

Now, the comments offered by Kevin Pritchard on his website/blog, I think that C249's interpretation is unduly slanted to play off the concept of the raceboard scene (and similar boards that include daggerboards) as being victims in the FOD proposal. I've had the opportunity over the years to talk directly one on one with Kevin a number of times, and I can honestly say that his stoke and interest in windsurfing is broadminded, sincere and it readily reflects a huge dedication to the sport. It should be remembered that Kevin has professionally competed in many different disciplines over the years, and he's arguably one of the most talented and successful multi-discipline competitors in the world today. Certainly Kevin is very interested in seeing the FOD concept winning an Olympic chance, as it's almost a given that he would compete in such a challenge.

And finally, I think that Svein's view of FW being the largest windsurfing class today is predicated on the fact that some of the finest course type sailing out there is FW, as the best professional level of the competitors in the world are focused on it. That's not to say that some of the best folks competing on racerboards aren't great sailors worthy of respect and attention, but I don't think that there's much question that they are not up on the highest professional level recognized today. One only has to look at a guy like Antoine Albeau and his stature in the sport, I seriously doubt that anyone the raceboard pool measures so high. In my opinion, FW includes windsurfing's creme of crop. I would love to see them battle it out in the Olympics, and certainly, I can't be alone in this.

Unregistered
21st September 2008, 09:19 AM
AA or KP would get beat on the FOD, that gear does not have enough power to let their talent shine. Of the top FW competitors the lightest and the youngest of today would have the best chance at even placing in the 2012 FOD Event. That wicked fast Brazil kid for example. Although AA could win FW in 2012.

FW and FOD are not close to the same thing when it comes to winning. The resons are obvious, there are 1000 different FW fins that tune different for 1000 different FW sailors that tune different across dozens of different FW boards that tune different to 1000's of different FW rigs trimed a 1000 different ways.

Or you could run an FOD regatta and claim that winner was something special. In truth that winner accomplished a slight portion of what an FW champion had to do.

U249
21st September 2008, 05:23 PM
Svein, thanks for posting that interesting reply. Much respect for what you have done with Starboard and in sailing.

However, the claim on the FOD bid is that most RACERS want a planing class, not that most windsurfers want a planing class. However, leaving that point aside, can we please ask where you got that information about the fact that FW is the largest windsurfing class today?

Much of the class size information I can find is below;

French National Rankings.

BIC 293D voir les règles de classement
Masculin 20/09/2008 (533)
Féminin 20/09/2008 (170)
Funboard voir les règles de classement
Masculin 20/09/2008 (115)
Féminin 20/09/2008 (18)
Formula Windsurfing voir les règles de classement
Masculin 20/09/2008 (111)
Féminin 20/09/2008 (12)
Longue distance voir les règles de classement
Homme 20/09/2008 (680)
Femme 20/09/2008 (71)
RaceBoard voir les règles de classement
Masculin 20/09/2008 (328)
Féminin 20/09/2008 (94)

Kona One - 401 (I think a lot of these people just borrowed a Kona for a regatta)

German windsurfing association rankings

Raceboard = 130 sailors
Junior Longboard = 95 sailors
DWC Slalom/Formula/wave/freestyle = 70 sailors including 8 under 20 years.
Kona One = 64
Techno 293 OD = 25 sailors (growing)
RSX = 25 sailors
IMCO = 15 sailors
Mistral Junior = 5 to 10 sailors

JUNIOR WORLDS ENTRIES

2007 Techno 293 OD hybrid worlds (under 17)= 166 entries (I think that the entries were restricted due to demand exceeding the available spots).
2007 FE Junior Worlds = 10 entries.
2007 FW Junior Worlds = 12 entries

YOUTH WORLDS

2007 FE Youth worlds = 5 entries.
2007 FW Youth Worlds = 48 entries.
2007 RSX Youth Worlds = 65 entries
2007 Raceboard Youth Euros = 34 entries.

British national circuit - Techno 293 (junior hybrid) =145 entries
Formula Windsurfer =84 entries
Raceboard = 80 entries
RSX hybrid =59 entries
Kona One = 11 entries (new class)

British Team 15 (for kids 15 years and under -requires centreboard for zone racing, aims to develop kids to sail Techno hybrid) = about 80 clubs. Each team can put up to 15 kids into a zone-level race. That's something like 800 kids on boards with centreboards.

US Nationals 08 -
17 FW entries
2 FE entries
Raceboards 25 entries
Hybrid 5 entries
Sports Fleet (longboards/hybrids) 12 entries.

US ranking list 07 -
FW 85
Open (inc. raceboard, Kona, etc) 80
Kona One Design 48
Hybrid 29
FE 24.

Australian national titles, average fleet last 2 seasons

Windsurfer One Design 32
Raceboard - 31.5
FW - 25
RSX= 8?
Junior One NSW titles (biggest kid's titles) = 15.
T 293 - 5
Note FW & Windsurfer One Design small fleets this year due to locations.

I can't read Polish but obviously Poland could have huge FW fleets. Hong Kong still has strong RB fleets and IMCOs. The Netherlands seems to get 25 for the REggio Cup (FW) and similar numbers of the longboard events. Canada seems to be 50/50 short and longboards AFAIK.

The FW reports to ISAF do not report more than 100 sailors in any country, although they used to. I assume these are incorrect.

Ignoring the T15 kids & worlds (which tilt numbers to longboards and hybrids), that's 733 Raceboarders versus 404 FW sailors, plus the 800 or so "non pumping" one designers and the hybrid sailors, who outnumber everyone.

These are very far from perfect figures, but they don't seem to show that "planing boards" are the most popular among regular racers.

Could you please provide us with the information that proves that the above figures, which show that most racers do not sail a "planing board", are incorrect?

249
21st September 2008, 06:08 PM
Steve: If you include RSX in "raceboards", then how there is any evidence for the claim that the best FW sailors are that much better than the RSXers? Without evidence, what use is the opinion of those who don't race either or both the world's best FW or RSX sailors?

At the last RSX worlds, the former FW World Champ and current Euro FW champ was 48th, with a best heat of 10th. He's been sailng RSX since 2006. The women's world FW champ came from Raceboards (IMCOs) and does much better on FW than RSX or IMCO. Julien Quental was 2nd in the FW worlds, did the RSX worlds but didn’t do as well.

God knows how anyone could assess who is better, but on the results, the number of people in the classes, (242 entries in the Garda RSX worlds), the number of pros and the number of pro coaches, sports institutes etc, it's hard to see how the brilliant FW sailors are (as you claim) much better than the brilliant RSX sailors. The Olympics are (perhaps with the exception of the football World Cup) the greatest sporting competition in the world, why would Olympic windsurfers be inferior?

Column inches in mags and websites are not exactly good barometers of ability, being related to the interests of those advertisers who sponsor the sailors.

I don't think any OD fan here has been derogatory towards FW sailors....it all flows one way. Both classes can surely boast brilliant sailors with different strengths, but only one of them seems to boast here that their heroes are the best.

Hey unregistered, if the true test of a sailor was learning how to mix different gear, why restrict boards to production boards like FW does?

Maybe there’s more than one test of a sailor? Maybe learning how to get the best of identical gear is an equally valid test? Sure, OD is less of a test of gear selection on one hand, but on the other hand having to use the same gear doesn’t allow you to cover over your weaknesses by getting different stuff.

fran4065
21st September 2008, 11:55 PM
I appreciate your posts, U249 and 249, documented and clarifying.
Personaly having experienced all the aspects of our sport, I still love all of them, and I jump, usualy by renting one, on a slalom, FW or wave board, as soon as I can and when the conditions are good .
But my next buy will be a Raceboard and, or Hybrid as I want to sail anytime when I am free, and I love it with any wind or sea; these boards are greatly fun, also in strong wind and waves, they are not made just for 1 to 6 knots wind!
Also I am a little fed up of the just cross-wind sailing, and have a great nostalgy of the cruising time of the 80's, and of the regattas on triangle course.
I have a dream for the selection of the next OD for the Olympics:
First I hope the triangle course will stay a must: it is the historic sailing course, and the winner on it is the best sailing machine of the time.
I dream of several candidatures for the next OG, including Raceboards, Hybrids, Formulas and any other new concept.
The selection should be made through several places in the world, rassembling at least one of each candidate.
Each place would have to organize and retain 12 days (for exemple) of race in a year, 4 starts each day, one discard.
The rule will be to have 3 days with wind between 0-10 kn wind, 3 days in 8-18 kn wind, 3 days in 16 - 26 Kn, 3 days in 24 - 34 kn.
(This rule may obliged to organize more than 12 race a year to get the wind quotas.)

At the end we will know (if the mags cover the events...) which candidate, and which concept is the best sailing machine any wind and seas combined.

This board and concept will be the best offer to the OG (if there is only one place offered), and will have a great commercial market: hundreds of thousands of customers are waiting to know which kind of board is the best to sail any day, any where.

An other point: There is an obstacle to the promotion of the daggerboards models: it is the difficulty to built it, light and reliable.
This difficulty makes these boards less profitable to trade than the planning boards.
Maybe this explain why during these last 15 years the mags, and the companies who buy pages inside, tried to convince everyone that the short boards were the most popular boards, and the only fun to sail.
So popular that we have lost 4 out of 5 customers!

steveC
22nd September 2008, 01:17 AM
When it comes to mixing and matching the sailors and the equipment, I doubt that that outcome can be especially meaningful. I would venture to say that if you took a leading RS-X sailors and put them FW gear, they might not do as well in the final race standings either. That wouldn't surprise me because so much is wrapped up in the equipment itself, and particularly type of conditions involved. As we can note in so many sports today, participant are often specialists that excel in what they do best. I think some of the best examples can be seen in snow skiing, auto racing and track and field events.

I think it's quite important to clarify one point here. I wouldn't even want to begin to imply that past Olympian windsurfers are inferior sailors, because that makes no sense at all. However, in reference to the equipment being used, it could be argued that stuff is less than optimum, and it might even be considered inferior. I don't think that the RS-X kit is state of the art by any means, and I would have a hard time believing that folks would buy the rig if it wasn't chosen as the OD for the 2008 Olympics. If RS-X isn't selected for the 2012 games, I'm fairly confident that it would simply fade away.

The thing about FOD that's so interesting is that it's much simplier, lighter and less costly rig overall. Now, there's no argument that it's less sophisticated as the top of the line FW stuff, but it's not that far removed in concept and practice. What's worthy of note is that FE, FW and the proposed FOD designs share the same general concept, thereby permitting a broad growth path and commonality for interested racers at different levels. On top of all this, I really like the idea of bumping up the wind minimum for racing to more sufficiently bring it into the realm of a planing competition. To me windsurfing is about planing, and would like to see the Olympic version more oriented in that direction. Quite frankly, I don't think that the idea of Olympic windsurfing being just a stand up version of other sailing craft is where we want to be. Notwithstanding my interests for a FOD Olympics, I'm not trying to put down the realm of the raceboard and it's place in the scheme of things. Many folks are attracted more to the raceboard design and the idea of sailing in more traditional yachting concepts, and I think that type of racing should be encouraged too in the sport. Not all locales benefit from planing wind conditions. If the long term strength of the raceboard proves to be the best overall, I'm sure that it may again be a solid choice in a future Olympics (beyond 2012), particularly if it is held in an extremely lightwind venue.

Unregistered
22nd September 2008, 11:08 AM
I think the numbers that C249 has presented require understanding.

However, I would guess that if you took out the national organisations and looked at grass roots i.e. not the boards where the government is paying for everything but where individuals decide what to race and so forth, then you would find Formula and slalom to reign supreme in many parts of the world. In the UK I have not seen too many of the board ads where it appears that you can even buy a longboard, but perhaps that is one part of the world (and many of the non planing areas would presumably be similar) where longboards reign supreme.

Here, the IMCOs and RSXs all belong to the Windsurfing Assocation of Thailand; there are some that are personally owned, but they are basically never really used except for 1 board that I can think of. And I am fairly sure the young guy sailing that really wants an RSX.

By comparison, formula boards are basically all owned by individuals and bought and paid for; there have been some formula experience boards donated by starboard in the past, and those racers use FE but the queue is long enough that the spill over are still sailing race boards. So that would put slalom/formula with about probably 50 boards, and longboards at zero/five at the max (assuming there is someone I don't know about).

I know there is a raceboard worlds, but now that IMCO is not the olympic board, that seems to have fallen away to the point that I don't think WAT would ever consider hosting it. I don't think any of the Thai racers have ever considered to go and race in raceboards now that IMCO isn't part of that; the Olympic guys just go out and train RSX non stop.

We cannot really judge on numbers alone since, as you pointed out yourself Chris a person could be ranked on the basis of racing once, or could be doing racing every weekend.

The number we really need is total number of racers and races competed in for each discipline removing all youth/national organisation board provided events, and that will give us the actual true number of racers in each class.

We need to remove the boards provided ones (e.g. all RSX numbers) since whatever the class at an olympic level, this is the board that people will use.

We all know that the Olympics insists basically on OD no matter how inappropriate such a format is for a sport like windsurfing, so there is little point in debating the merits of having a truly open environment, since in addition there is not a single class in the world that operates truly open; they all need restrictions hence the name box rule.

Regarding who the best sailors are, I have no doubt that Tom Ashley would reign supreme no matter what board you stick him on; he is interested in racing olympic, so that currently puts him on a board that basically no one outside of RSX racers knows much about.

The question really, is whether what the majority of windsurfers do (which we can safely assume to be sailing planing shortboards back and forth, based on industry sales, numbers of participants in the sport at most locations, based on forum posters) has any relevance at all to the olympic class.

Most of my friends say no, and don't even know who won.

Whether this would change at all with Formula, I am not sure; most of them know all the formula guys via slalom/pro racing/wave stuff, but don't follow formula either. Certainly just superficially formula has more in common with the shortboard scene than the longboards; the focus on planing, same sail/fin/board set up (albeit a lot bigger) - however courses are wildly different to slalom and B&F style sailing.

Triangle courses are being eliminated left right and centre in almost all classes; for a downwind planing craft (both RSX and formula) it makes more sense to introduce the tactical aspect of either trapezoid or windward-leewards with split gybes, etc etc than the procession encouraged by triangle course. That is current thinking anyhow.

For all the hype on longboards, the reality is that they ARE available now, Kona has pushed about as hard as any single board category can do so, and yet we don't see that 4 out of 5 windsurfers who alledgedly quit windsurfing because of the evil shortboard conspiracy reappearing.

Let's face it, windsurfing was a popular fad, and now it is down to the core. No single magical pill exists to bring back the 80% from the peak days; right now that 80% can watch TV, drink beer, snowboard, kiteboard, body board, etc etc. It will take a bunch of small initiatives to get the numbers back....however to date I've seen quite a bit of marketing for the Serenity, Star-board now have the longboards for their dealer network to try every dealer conference, there is the Kona supported by a huge amount of marketing, many attempts to create longboards for the masses in design from almost every manufacturer....and as said earlier, it is mighty hard to create a board that is twice as big as a standard board which requires that complex centrecase/sliding rig track arrangement , which still has the big rig similar to the bigger freeride gear, that the dealer networks don't necessarily have faith will be popular....at anywhere near the cost and ease to sale as the non race market.

If it were so easy to create a longboard people would like to sail.....every brand is trying to do it....we would have seen it by now. Instead all I've seen to date are boards that are just a lot more work than simply yanking out a formula board and blasting around; the entire formula set up (rig, board, fin) is still lighter than some of the longboards board alone. But since I am not the Olympic market, I am not sure how relevant this is.

The best of the longboards I have tried is not bad, and quite enjoyable to sail; would be worth it to buy to race I think. But there would be a big gap between that board (one of the phantom 380s) and any of the other ones I've tried, the rest weren't fun (for me) to sail so to hear someone tell me the reason why I don't have a longboard is due to the marketing of the industry makes me feel fairly stupid. I've tried both, and I simply didn't like most of the longboards. The sales numbers suggest I am certainly not alone.

however, at an Olympic level, none of that matters. So I think they should go and ask a panel of past Olympians and pro sailors what they would like to compete on. ideally not using a manufactured class like the RSX which everyone seems to agree is going to die the day it is no longer an Olympic class.

249
22nd September 2008, 05:29 PM
Kip/unregistered, of course you're not stupid because of the boards you happen to like. Really, the entire underlying point that some of us are trying to highlight is that no one should diss anyone's choice of board - that's why comments like the one that the RS isn't "real windsurfing" are annoying to some of us.

Loads of people are in the same position as you are - they love just shortboards. That's great; some of us are just against the people who try to denigrate the choice others make.

Sure, at your beach everyone sails shortboards; at mine, everyone sail longboards. Evidence about our own beach is surely pretty worthless, because it varies so much..... so let's let you sail what you want, let me sail what I want, and let's stop people saying that what other people sail is "not 'real windsurfing" and let's stop people saying that racers want a certain sort of board that most of them choose not to sail. All we're saying is let's stop dissing other people's choice, as has happened in the past (documented fact) and is still happening, like when people say a certain board is "not real windsurfing".

About the "supplied boards" point; with respect, have you got any evidence that anyone in the UK or France or the USA or Germany is giving many RSXs or T293s away?? I can find no such evidence on the RYA or T293 sites. It seems very odd that windsurfing alone would get such treatment and a significant proportion of the RYA, FFV DSV budget. If you have some evidence, please post it. If you don't, let's dismiss the point.

"The number we really need is total number of racers and races competed in for each discipline removing all youth/national organisation board provided events, and that will give us the actual true number of racers in each class."

Ok, there is NO evidence that the UK had any provided boards apart from Konas (5?). One would assume FW boards were provided. So that doesn't change things.

Australia had 5 provided boards in those rankings....so that doesn't change things.

No one's ever said that there was an evil conspiracy against longboards, but there's a good case that the industry tried to push high-wind sailing in a short-term effort to keep the bottom line looking good - and that's what people like Barry Spanier, , or that a trend of 20 year would be turned around in 3. If we believe the reported comments of Svein at the West COast USA dealers meeting, then Svien himself says that windsurfing dropped off much more than other sports.

About the explanation "it was all just a fad"....isn't that too simple an explanation in some ways? It could be used no matter what the industry had done.... If it has some sort of basis, please explain. If not, it's surely just not really an explanation. If that is the simple explanation, can you show us other sports that have dropped so much? If not, why not?

"Right now that 80% can watch TV, drink beer, snowboard, kiteboard, body board, etc etc."

They could drink beer, watch TV in the '80s. The growth of the simple sport of bodyboarding and the light-wind sport that kiting can be surely are not proof that windsurfing's high-wind accent was right.

The "longboard hype" is certainly much less than the 'shortboard hype'; look at any manufacturer's site apart from Kona. And unless (and it's possible) Pono Bill's site mis-quoted Svein, Svein also thinks concentrating too much on shortboards hurt the sport.

In this thread, one side has presented verbatim quotes from a top sailor. One side has presented actual numbers from official sources (UKWA, DSV, FFV etc) than can be verified. The other side hasn't presented a single figure or fact....... which is more objective?

Steve - good post.

Sure, the Olympic gear hasn't been great. When it comes to supporting classes, the current hybrid (and I've never liked mid-length boards myself) has a huge supporting class in the T293 - vastly bigger than the FE supporting class. Personally, I've never found any evidence that some sort of windsurfer racer are closer to a yachting style than others in some respects, apart from the fact that the yachties have a much stronger racing scene and therefore surely have a lot to teach us.

It's the 'yachties' who have to restrict those who can enter their world titles in many classes to avoid overcrowding; the 'yachties' who have to restrict professional sailors in many classes to avoid squeezing out keen amateurs. If the windsurfing way is so much better, why don't we have the same problems?

And the yachties don't want to change classes too often.

Hey, I'm certainly no expert and have never claimed to be, but when it comes to classes for 2012 all I can say is that looking closely at history, and looking at things like reading every country's submission for the last Games, those who have to find the cash to pay for sailors, gear and coaches rarely want to change gear each Games.

Unregistered
22nd September 2008, 07:44 PM
Forget the Olympics and bring the cost of FW down!!! OG will do nothing for FW.

Unregistered
22nd September 2008, 08:31 PM
Chris

AFAIK all RSXs are only sold to the government/agency type groups I refered to; I know that I personally am not able to buy one. Perhaps the Olympic hopefuls can.

That is the sort of group i am referring to. Every single RSX in Thailand is a handmedown from the govt, I am guessing huge numbers are in other markets also since individuals aren't allowed to buy them (at least this was the case before).

In France, large numbers of classes are the choice of this assocation or that; in fact Starboard provides a longboard to one of these organisations already. Thus, not individuals but the association decides what to buy; to date I am fairly sure that other than the serenity, very few individuals are fronting up to buy longboards from starboard, as my mate at Cobra says, for all the talk about longboards, SUPs and so on....the sales and manufacturing numbers are not there. And he's an ex longboarder same as Svein (and actually they both spend a lot of time sailing longboards themselves).

I don't know what occurs in the UK and Europe...
http://www.minorcasailing.co.uk/pages/windsurf/wskit.asp?expand=subm3

if these guys are indicative, it seems like starboard is making a fair bit of effort to get people to at least try longboards. And that's the root of the issue; I believe that if all that it would take to get people windsurfing now was availability and marketing of longboards...well don't we already have it? And instead, SUPs outsell longboards and that's even taking into account that much of the sales (and this is a gut call here) for longboards are not individuals but assocations and what I consider to be government groups; certainly the case here.

At the end of the day you can sail what you want, so can I - however in the Olympics the sad thing is both our styles cannot be included; it has to be one and one only. My own opinion is that Olympic campaigns are so removed from the type of windsurfing that most of us do, that the people to decide what equipment should be principally former Olympians and current racers from a variety of disciplines.

It's the same for sailing; breaks my heart to see what I consider a huge slap in the face to cat sailors; now that the tornado was eliminated even though that is more representative of all the hobie and formula 18 and papertiger sailors in the world than the Star or Yngling.

And I'm not the one slagging longboards :-) Like I said, if I was going to race and there was someone to race with, then I might be keen.

Unregistered
23rd September 2008, 03:13 AM
Just for info minorca sailing are pretty much unique in loaning race kit of any kind to punters.

And I guess most peoples chance to try a longboard now is by putting a rig on their SUP ?

Svein Rasmussen
23rd September 2008, 08:20 AM
Hi Matthew.

regarding your post nr 15:

The actual situation is that there are 3 times more participants in FW:

- Numbers of competitors on World Rankings
o RS:X 218 men 46 countries 5 continents
o FW 638 43 5
o Only asia less competitors in FW then RS:X



We want to think globally when it comes to the Olympics. If the RSX class despite all its funding and medal status is not capable of gathering an interest that measures up to that of FW,
then we need to seriously reconsider what the Olympic arm of windsurfing is meant to represent: a small minority or something more?

I agree that light wind sailing is important, but we have had daggerboard boards in the Olympics since 1984 and we can view the result by looking at the participation decline.
I am up for a change for a 4 year period, and then we at least will be able to know if Formula style is more appealing to racers . The IMCO class died the day it had no more medal, indicating that there currently is not much support for light wind racing, except for people over 40 years, like myself. I love racing with daggerboards, but today I am in minority and will need to accept that until a dagggerboard class has proven to more popular than FW, and that without a medal status. Let us support the growth of the Raceboard class and its hybrid class, and see how strong that can be in 4 years. Windsurfing is in an never ending development cycle , and we may return to daggerboards in 4 or 8 years, but right now its not the case.

Unregistered
23rd September 2008, 02:42 PM
thanks for the reply svein and i take your point about worldwide participation with formula and rsx.

One of the major problems ( in my view) with windsurf racing over the past few years is a lack of vision as to where we want to go and what we want to achieve and just as importantly how to get there.
In my view Formula type sailing (as a class) is a mistake for the following reasons.

1 the boards dont function in light airs. if the wind is light and shifty formula doesnt work. This effectively writes off an awful lot of inland locations throughout the year and it also means that a lot of times Formula wont get as much racing in as a daggerboard class, week in week out at a local or regional level

2 In order to function in medium airs (8Knots plus), formula requires very big sails. these sails put people off, i have heard it said that lightweights and young people can handle 10m sails....... whereas this may be true, it unfortunately is an elitist outlook, lightweights and young people of a given fitness and skill level can handle this size sail- other people cannot, and thus where is your route into the class if you are less skilled or less strong? as forumla baords with small sails are pretty poorly performing and the planing threshold is substantially raised....less racing more thumb twiddling.

3 formula is not versatile. formula type boards dont really work very well with smaller sails, and thus are not very versatile or tolerant of different abilities/ weights. for example they dont really work with 7m sails or 6m sails. They also have all sorts of problems with sailing locations with shorebreaks and/or extensive shallow water launch areas- further eroding the locations the kit can be sailed as a class..... (this could be got around by having retracting fins of course, which wold also mean FW could reach in more wind- got to be a bonus.)

4. relevance. a few years ago this was discussed in the context of longboards. It was felt that longboards had become irrelevant to the majority of windsurfers, distant and not the type of sailing " most people do". This is true of Formula also ( allthouh actually i dont think this is a particularly relevant argument- i only bring it up as it was one of the nails in the coffin when people tried to kill longboards a few years ago)

Now i also agree that RSX is a poor class, the kit is slow and poor and given a straight choice between rsx and FOD i dont see any particular advantage to either...... other than RSX at least can be raced in subplaning mode- and this itslef is enough, as the last thing you want in a class is kit that cannot be raced cos its not blowing hard enough.

The reason i think you are making a mistake is becasue you have chosen the wrong horse to back and put to isaf.
A Longboard is the board that should have been chosen to take to isaf, indeed the longbaord should never have been gotten rid of in the first place. To relate the longboard back to my above points.

1 Longboards function and perform in the full range of conditions from 3-30 knots. A good design longboard will be fast and fun in the 6-9 knot range and it will not matter if the wind fluctuates either side of this wind band as fair racing can still take place, thus openeing up inland locations to reliable racing and further meaning an extended range of conditions that racing can take place. Longbaords also plane quite happily given wind- so for those who want a planing class, its there- its just more than JUST planing.

2 Longboards do not require huge sails to work. In fact if you look at particpation levels in racing over the years you can see how every time the sail size limit went up, participation dropped. The bigger and heavier and more unwieldy a rig the less people are likely to want to do it. Longboards also work better with a range of sail sizes which brings us to --->

3 Longbaords are very versatile. Longboards can work and work well with a range of sail sizes from 5.5- 9.5. This means using the same basic board you can have kids racing with 5.5,s youths racing with 6.5,s lightweights with 7.5,s and heavyweights with 9.5's. All of a sudden you have opened up your class to a huge number of people who would be disenfranchised by a formula class. Further longoards are more tolerant and easier to launch in a variety of location such as those with a shorebreak or extended shallow water area, or a tight launch in restricted waters. they can do all this and still perfom well in locations with extensive clean wind and water. They are versatile and adaptable.

4 relevance- well looking at the racing numbers you have given and the racing particpation that i am familiar with in the uk i would argue that a daggerboard class is more relevant to the majority of windsurfing racing participants- simply more people race boards with daggerboards than those racing Fomrula.

To come back to my original point about vision and how to get there,
My vision is for windsurf racing to encourage participation and to be popular.
We should do this by nurturing and encuraging a class of board that can be sailed in as wide a range of conditions as possible, from inland to open sea in 3 - 30 knots. A class that is tolerant of a range of weights from young girls through to the heaviest hairy man.
Formula is not that class, choosing it as the olympic kit will plough resources into a class that is inherently limited in its appeal and future ability to encourage windsurf racing at grass roots, and thus the money competing nations put into the class will only benefit a very few" elite athletes" and will have no trickle through benefit for the wider windsurfing community, a travesty in my mind. true the rsx is poor- because it never should have been chosen. The longboard won the trials last time around, it was the most versatile best performing board, formula was third behind the rsx. It is quite astounding to me that you are choosing to promote FOD, the type of board that was third at the trials, over and above the longboard, the type of board that won the trials last time around......but it is indicative of a weird desire in windsurfing to mess things up....

I am happy to have this discussion on the open forum but i am also happy to talk privately about it, my email is matthew (-at-) demonsails.co.uk

C249
23rd September 2008, 04:41 PM
Hi Matthew.

regarding your post nr 15:

The actual situation is that there are 3 times more participants in FW:

- Numbers of competitors on World Rankings
o RS:X 218 men 46 countries 5 continents
o FW 638 43 5
o Only asia less competitors in FW then RS:X


We want to think globally when it comes to the Olympics. If the RSX class despite all its funding and medal status is not capable of gathering an interest that measures up to that of FW,
then we need to seriously reconsider what the Olympic arm of windsurfing is meant to represent: a small minority or something more?

I agree that light wind sailing is important, but we have had daggerboard boards in the Olympics since 1984 and we can view the result by looking at the participation decline.
I am up for a change for a 4 year period, and then we at least will be able to know if Formula style is more appealing to racers . The IMCO class died the day it had no more medal, indicating that there currently is not much support for light wind racing, except for people over 40 years, like myself. I love racing with daggerboards, but today I am in minority and will need to accept that until a dagggerboard class has proven to more popular than FW, and that without a medal status. Let us support the growth of the Raceboard class and its hybrid class, and see how strong that can be in 4 years. Windsurfing is in an never ending development cycle , and we may return to daggerboards in 4 or 8 years, but right now its not the case.

Svein, interesting post. It's great to see that you support the whole spectrum of windsurfing. Thanks for that, and for replying....much respect.

There could still be some apparent problems with the maths that "demonstrate" that most racers want to sail 'planing boards', with respect.

The FW rankings comprise 24 events over 15 months, including some very local events, so it's not a total surprise that they cover more sailors than the RSX rankings which seem to cover just 7 events. However, there's probably no one here who is actually defending the RSX, and some of us certainly don't think that being Olympic actually helps a class. Like the death of the IMCO, the fact that the RSX is not very popular could just show how Olympic status harms a class.

The real question is, are the international rankings really the best way to work out how popular a class is worldwide? Some classes centre around ranking-type events, some don't. Raceboards, for example, don't have a world ranking yet there are many people racing raceboards keenly every week. Look up the Midlands association, the London Windsurfing Association, the Toronto racers, the DAC fleet, the German longboarders, the French Raceboarders - they total hundreds yet they are missing from your list simply because the Raceboarders prefer to concentrate on regular local racing.

For example, I sail two board classes that had over 130 racers last year in this country - but not one of these classes has a ranking list so those 130 sailors (including three former Olympians) are invisible if we use ranking lists as our criteria. Is a measure that ignores the biggest class in a significant windsurfing country and a former PWA world champ all that reliable?

One of those classes has a meeting this Saturday evening where they may declare a ranking system, which could incorporate three ex-Olympians, one PWA world champ, and almost 150 other sailors (plus a whole bunch more if one more country is included). This one example - the fact that a simple committee vote can be the difference between not existing and having about 1/3 or over 1/2 as many sailors as FW in the ranking list- may illustrate that just going off ranking systems isn't an accurate measure of what sailors are actually out there racing.

Under a system which uses world ranking lists, the 80+ sailors on the UK ranking list don't exist, although in the UK rankings there are only 4 fewer Raceboards than FW boards. Under a system which uses world ranking lists, the 50 sailors who race FW in my area get counted, but the 105 longboarders who sail longboards in my area don't get counted.

So while the use of international rankings is cool, it's also open to argument from those of us who do not feel that it is accurate, because it simply ignores any class that does not run international rankings, it ignores those who race at their local club and not at a higher level, and it is wide open to distortion because it simply gets down to the way an individual class chooses to run.

When the claim is that racers around the world want to sail 'planing boards' surely we should not ignore many hundreds of racers just because they sail classes that have no international ranking list.

And finally, the Kona One Design world rankings currently total 946 sailors, and since they are about to form an official International class those rankings will soon be as "official" as the FW rankings.......so even if we use the measure of international rankings, the 'planing type' boards may not be #1.

So if we go by ranking lists or not, it seems hard to see that most racers want planing boards.

249
23rd September 2008, 05:39 PM
By the way, Frans, Skip, Steve, and especially Svein - great posts!!!!

249
23rd September 2008, 05:41 PM
By the way, Frans, Skip, Steve, and especially Svein - great posts!!!!



and Matthew too- whoops!! :-)

Unregistered
28th September 2008, 10:05 AM
As to the idea that FW doesn't work with smaller sails-it certainly does. Lightweights go on them all the time, and I --as a heavyweight-- have too when the wind is strong enough.

If we want to see the best windsurf *racers* in the world in the Olympics, it has to be FW, if we want to continue with the current amateurs, often with little skills, then stick with longboards. That's just a fact: most Olympic sailers (with a few exceptions) are barely club level racers, because top sailers either aren't interested in long boards or don't fit the Kate Moss body type needed for RSUX or IMCO air rowing.

I mean c'mon, wouldn't we all like to see AA, BD, Naish, KP, etc etc in the Olympics ?

As it is, we have refugees from other sports representing, because so few accomplished *windsurfers* / athletes are interested, so athletes that have failed in their original sport of choice have switched to something easy. Which is not to denigrate anyone's hard work, but it's a fact that I'd rather see our sport represented by our best.

There is one other possibility: switch to freestyle.

There's no real reason racing needs to be the Olympic representative form of windsurfing, and freestyle is successful in any wind strength, more or less. But I strongly doubt that Olympic sailing would allow so radical an idea.

Which leaves FW, or the ghetto of 1980s technology.

Unregistered
28th September 2008, 12:50 PM
As to the idea that FW doesn't work with smaller sails-it certainly does. Lightweights go on them all the time, and I --as a heavyweight-- have too when the wind is strong enough.

If we want to see the best windsurf *racers* in the world in the Olympics, it has to be FW, if we want to continue with the current amateurs, often with little skills, then stick with longboards. That's just a fact: most Olympic sailers (with a few exceptions) are barely club level racers, because top sailers either aren't interested in long boards or don't fit the Kate Moss body type needed for RSUX or IMCO air rowing.


Not sure I'd agree with that; I am fairly sure that Tom Ashley would be very competitive in the shortboards as well; that guy would be a champ in any sailing sport.

At the next rung down; certainly locally and regionally in Asia AFAIK the longboarders are either govt athletes (national team, youth team) or beginners who cannot afford shortboard stuff.

I am led to believe this is not the case in Australia; again it certainly seems that longboards are the domain of the blue rinse brigade in NZ also AFAIK plus the elite olympians (if we count the RSX as a longboard). Uk different again.

Locally, we have 2 great formula sailors; one is tall and skinny, the other more stocky so could not switch to RSX; the tall skinny guy ended up 20th I think in the Olympics...and he came something like mid fleet in the formula worlds and is up near the top in slalom etc here; so that kind of shows that the mid fleet level of longboards is probably about on par with mid fleet in the formula.

Unless there is a board that suits bigger guys, you'll never see AA or KP et al racing Olympics. Plus the sponsorship issue of OD kind of kills things a bit.

Fair to say for every longboard and formula racer, there are another 10 sailors who have never even considered once racing a board. Anyone dispute that?

Unregistered
28th September 2008, 02:54 PM
"If we want to see the best windsurf *racers* in the world in the Olympics, it has to be FW, if we want to continue with the current amateurs, often with little skills, then stick with longboards. That's just a fact: most Olympic sailers (with a few exceptions) are barely club level racers, because top sailers either aren't interested in long boards or don't fit the Kate Moss body type needed for RSUX or IMCO air rowing."

THAT'S JUST NOTHING BUT COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

STEVE ALLEN DID THE RSX WORLDS AND NEVER FINISHED A SINGLE RACE BETTER THAN TENTH. HE WAS ABOUT 34TH OVERALL.

IF THE RSX SAILORS WERE CRAP, STEVE WOULD HAVE DONE WELL. HE DID NOT.

THE CURRENT WORLD WOMEN'S FW CHAMP COULDN'T EVEN MAKE THE OLYMPIC TEAM OR WIN A WORLDS IN AN OLYMPIC CLASS; SHE WAS ON TOP IN FW SHORTLY AFTER SHE GOT BEATEN IN THE OLYMPIC CLASS.

WHAT CLASS IS AMATEUR? WHERE I AM, FOR ONE, THE TOP FW SAILORS ALL HAVE FULL-TIME JOBS; THE TOP RSX SAILORS ARE ALL FULL-TIME SAILORS FOR 18 MONTHS AT LEAST BEFORE EACH TRIALS.


I mean c'mon, wouldn't we all like to see AA, BD, Naish, KP, etc etc in the Olympics ?

I SPOKE TO NAISH MYSELF ABOUT THE OLYMPICS; HE HAD HUGE RESPECT FOR THE OLYMPIANS.

A TWO-TIME OVERALL PWA WORLD CHAMP, WINNER OF THE ALOHA CLASSIC, WAS 'ROUND AT MY PLACE LAST NIGHT.....DID FOUR OLYMPICS, NO MEDAL.

GREAT SAILOR, PWA WORLD CHAMP TWICE AND NEVER AN OLYMPIC WORLD CHAMP DESPITE 12 YEARS OF TRYING.....WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU?

YOU ARE AN EMBARRASSMENT TO FORMULA.


Which leaves FW, or the ghetto of 1980s technology.

THE GREAT

Unregistered
28th September 2008, 04:43 PM
if you put Nick Dempsey into any uk fleet, he would be at the top of it or thereabouts. i cant think of a single regular formula sailor who would even get close to nick.going back to imco, the top imco sailors were all pretty good sailors and could hold their own in other fleets. Going back even further pretty much all of the greats of windsurfing honed their skills on longboards....... Naish, dunkerbeck bringdal baker etc etc.............

usa-4
28th September 2008, 05:57 PM
My thoughts after seeing the FOD in action and speaking to several sailors using the equipment at 2 events this year:

Starboard provided 10 complete kits for some Olympic class sailors to try. Most found the equipment better than the current RSX class but still not yet completely acceptable. The 11.0 men’s rig seems a bit much for one sail to cover the range of 6-30 knots. Ironically most racing in the FOD fleet registered another smaller sail and used it during the windy races. To say that the 11.0 planes any sooner than a formula board with a light-wind fin and 11.8 rig is absurd!

Yes this new class may make the sport more accessible and more opportunities to train with existing formula fleets but still the equipment has some fine tuning before it can be called an Olympic standard! The choice for 2012 is a tough one indeed. Abandon the RSX class in favor of a purely planning class and risk not having racing at light wind venues or stick with the current class and have a class that is so far out of reach from the standards of windsurfing that it only attracts Olympic campaigners. My thoughts are that we need to grow the sport not continue to chop it up into fringe classes that national authorities can barely justify supporting. Windsurfing would be better off with the FOD in the Olympic. Not perfect, but lets hope it can turn out better than what we were promised in 2004 at the last selection trials.
Steve
USA 4

Remi
29th September 2008, 10:59 AM
Hi Steeve,

The racers as you said who use smaller sails is not beacause they can not handle the sail, but (they are racers) they just want to be faster compare to Formula Windsurfing open equipment in High Wind. With the wide trim range this sail plane really earlier because softer and more easy to pump compare to an Formula Windsurfing 11m². Due to only one sail the average weight will be less than the curent Formula Windsurfing open because they can not use sails like 12,5m².
In really ligth wind we can have other race course format to be more attractive race than the only propulsion pomping and rowing for the media.

All the best

usa-4
29th September 2008, 03:06 PM
The racers as you said who use smaller sails is not beacause they can not handle the sail, but (they are racers) they just want to be faster compare to Formula Windsurfing open equipment in High Wind.

So- given the choice sailors still would pick formula equipment over the FOD 11.0!!!
Isnt this what happened with RSX?? No one wanted to sail it because compared to formula, it wasnt any fun. You've got to make the sail better for planning conditions without giving up the low-end.


With the wide trim range this sail plane really earlier because softer and more easy to pump compare to an Formula Windsurfing 11m².

Of course the softer FOD 11.0 is easier to pump!
Comparing it to a formula 11.0 is comparing apples to oranges.
A formula 11.0 is meant for 12-18k

Due to only one sail the average weight will be less than the curent Formula Windsurfing open because they can not use sails like 12,5m².

I agree and the argument of getting the likes of Albeau, Buzianis, Pritchard, Dunkerbeck and the other PWA guys is slim to none!


In really ligth wind we can have other race course format to be more attractive race than the only propulsion pomping and rowing for the media.

What formats are you suggesting will work with a formula board and 11.0 in light winds?? - slalom, match racing, team racing???

Unregistered
29th September 2008, 08:15 PM
I think it's irrelevant whether one class is "faster" than the other since everyone is on same equipment. I think it's much more important that a result is obtained even if the wind is bad - it would be a disaster if no medals were awarded. The rsx (or another longboard/hybrid) is the best compromise to make sure racing takes place.
I believe that if olympic windsurfing were gone, the status of windsurfing would diminish.

Unregistered
29th September 2008, 08:30 PM
Hi gyus,

Is it so much important to be on the Olympics?
I don't understand what's behind this effort of making FOD or FW an Olympic equipment. Don't came with "this is what sailors want" because I haven't read any sailor saying that's what they want, seems loke the prefer FW over FOD.
I also think that if the FOD would be chosen for the OG or not and became a class even without Olympic class status, it will kill the Formula Experience class, but seems like FE is already dead anyway so maybe it woud not make any difference.
Thanks, good sailing.

Remi
29th September 2008, 09:48 PM
Hi Unregistered,

The ISAF policy for the wind is 6 to 25 knots, so we design the FOD to work in this criteria and prove alredy that is working well. At the World the FOD package proove that is working in this wide wind range. Of course is not as fast Formula Windsurfing open with 3 fins and 3 sails but work far enough to have good race.
If you was there you will have another opinion. You seems to be a RSX sailor and never try the FOD and the 11 doesn't work is so less wide range as you said (12 to 18knots)
Since 2001 we have only on event was cancell because of no wind, the water was like a miror during all the week except one after noon. Non class will be race in this condition, the wind was under 2 knots. So the probability is poor to cancell event.

All the best

Unregistered
29th September 2008, 10:33 PM
Hi Remi,
I'm not an RSX sailor, I'm a formula sailor and a FE sailor. I'm just not full convinced about that FOD big effort to go to Olympics and be an Olympic equipment is so important, I really don't think that OG do much for any sailing class. Seems just marketing to me.

RafaelCroce
29th September 2008, 10:36 PM
I just wanna say that for me, the FOD starboard project sounds really good.
I hope ISAF aprove the ideia soon as possible.

Remi
29th September 2008, 11:19 PM
Hi Unregistered,

Where are you from?
You can be sure that is not marketing, it's really working and hope you have the chance to try the FOD one time to see by your self.

All the best

Unregistered
30th September 2008, 01:02 AM
What's the future of Formula Experience with this FOD thing?

Unregistered
30th September 2008, 01:13 AM
Remi,

If the FOD class became reallity, I'll race then for sure, even without a chance to go to the Olympics, but I want to see it fired up before change for FOD.
I'm from Brazil by the way.

RafaelCroce
30th September 2008, 02:32 AM
Remi,

If the FOD class became reallity, I'll race then for sure, even without a chance to go to the Olympics, but I want to see it fired up before change for FOD.
I'm from Brazil by the way.

Where more exactly u're from?
Im from brazil, Santos - São Paulo.

And i think the FOD will be great for our wind range.

=]

Remi
30th September 2008, 03:15 AM
Hi Unregistered,

If you know Marcello, please contact him because I Think some FOD arrive in Brazil soon.

This is our proposal for the FE and FOD :

Under 17 FE due to the durability with a FOD rig 7,5 and 8,5m²
Under 19 FOD with 8,5 & 9,5 for girls and 9,5 & 11m² for boys
Senior FOD with 9,5m² for women and 11m² for men.

Please notice that 2007 FE price with 11m² is close to the FOD package with 11m² but you have a wood board a boom really stiffer than the Nautix one and a Deboichet custom fin.

All the best

RafaelCroce
30th September 2008, 05:24 PM
Hi Unregistered,

If you know Marcello, please contact him because I Think some FOD arrive in Brazil soon.

This is our proposal for the FE and FOD :

Under 17 FE due to the durability with a FOD rig 7,5 and 8,5m²
Under 19 FOD with 8,5 & 9,5 for girls and 9,5 & 11m² for boys
Senior FOD with 9,5m² for women and 11m² for men.

Please notice that 2007 FE price with 11m² is close to the FOD package with 11m² but you have a wood board a boom really stiffer than the Nautix one and a Deboichet custom fin.

All the best


You mean marcello morrone right?

Hm, this is great news, im looking forward to this.....
=]

Remi
30th September 2008, 06:07 PM
Hi Rafael,

Yes of course.

All the best

sergio k
30th September 2008, 09:45 PM
Hot topic... it looks like there're 2 groups that against the FOD, both hardcore;

One is a longboard crowd that either never sailed FW or has very
limited experience on it, but willing to give an expert opinion on the subject of performace
of FOD.

The other group is FW racers; guys OG will ONLY except one design, it looks like
starboard team came up with a best proposal they could to give us a chance to have a
plaining, 'formula' like format for the next olympics, there're NO other short board
proposals that I know off, it either this or longbord, get it?

Unregistered
1st October 2008, 03:35 AM
Hi Rafael,
I'm just arriving from Maceió where we had the Brazilian Formula Experience Championships. We had just one day with winds from 7-8 knots and just 2 races completed, but the overall feedback of the sailors couldn't be better.

For the first time in 3 years we invited the "amateur" FW sailors to join in the FE fleet for 2 reasons: 1- Let them try the FE board and rig; 2- Let them try the experience of race with the same board and fin of everybody.

Actually we had good winds blowing 2 days before and 1 day after the event where they could test the equipment in good conditions. But it was impressive to see the anemometer displaying 6 knots and a FE board with its 11.0 rig (75% carbon mast and alloy boom) crossing the bay planning.

We had the Formula Experience Class meeting on Saturday night and all the comments were extremely positive in all aspects and we found many reasons to keep pushing the Formula Experience class together with the new FOD class here in Brazil. You will receive the good news in your e-mail soon.

Thanks,
Marcello Morrone

Unregistered
1st October 2008, 05:24 PM
Hot topic... it looks like there're 2 groups that against the FOD, both hardcore;

One is a longboard crowd that either never sailed FW or has very
limited experience on it, but willing to give an expert opinion on the subject of performace
of FOD.

The other group is FW racers; guys OG will ONLY except one design, it looks like
starboard team came up with a best proposal they could to give us a chance to have a
plaining, 'formula' like format for the next olympics, there're NO other short board
proposals that I know off, it either this or longbord, get it?

How many times in this thread has "the longboarder crowd" claimed to have any expertise on the FOD??

fran4065
1st October 2008, 08:57 PM
Just found on the "new speed record topic":

.... In our local races the kites have begun to beat the formula guys on a race course. Kitesurfing is seriousely innovative these days, whereas windsurfing seems a little on the conservative side. I've never tried kitesurfing and I love windsurfing, so no offence.

So:...just few years to wait to have the Kite in OG instead of any wind-surf-board, that will happen if the criteria is to have the "most speedy & (say to be) most spectacular" on a course adapted specifiquely to that stuff.

It is in the same idea than to turn our back to the original aspect of our sport which was one board, one rig, able to sail any course (OLYMPIC triangle) from 2 knt to 30knt, and to now prefer FOD with the restriction of not racing if less than 6 (or 8) knt steady wind, and under a course adapted to this equipment.

I maintain that if windsurf have only one place in OG, it has to be on the best equipment able to sail any wind under the O. triangle.

FOD is not this equipment, so it has to require a second room in the OG, and if the definition of this second room is to be the most speedy & spectacular, it will be in concurrence with Kite surf, and any future improvement.
Why not?

Remi
1st October 2008, 09:12 PM
Hi Fran4065,

The ISAF wind policy was before 3 to 35 knots but now is 6 to 25 knots, so we can have good race who is more spectacular for the media.

All the best

ceri
1st October 2008, 10:02 PM
i think kite could replace another sailing class - but not windsurfing !

sergio k
1st October 2008, 10:26 PM
Just found on the "new speed record topic":

.... In our local races the kites have begun to beat the formula guys on a race course. Kitesurfing is seriousely innovative these days, whereas windsurfing seems a little on the conservative side. I've never tried kitesurfing and I love windsurfing, so no offence.

So:...just few years to wait to have the Kite in OG instead of any wind-surf-board, that will happen if the criteria is to have the "most speedy & (say to be) most spectacular" on a course adapted specifiquely to that stuff.

It is in the same idea than to turn our back to the original aspect of our sport which was one board, one rig, able to sail any course (OLYMPIC triangle) from 2 knt to 30knt, and to now prefer FOD with the restriction of not racing if less than 6 (or 8) knt steady wind, and under a course adapted to this equipment.

I maintain that if windsurf have only one place in OG, it has to be on the best equipment able to sail any wind under the O. triangle.

FOD is not this equipment, so it has to require a second room in the OG, and if the definition of this second room is to be the most speedy & spectacular, it will be in concurrence with Kite surf, and any future improvement.
Why not?

I'd like to see 50 kites at the starting line on the middle of the bay, the wind drops
and everyone has to re-lanch their kites...; there're 2 issues I don't see being resolved with kitesurfing, keeping kites in the air at 0-5 knots and boards
cannot be even called sinkers, wind drops - you need a rescue boat :(

And while downwind in steady conditions kites can do really great, in less than steady
conditions or upwind I yet to see kites taking out FW's(as long as kitesurfer and windsurfer
at similar level)

Unregistered
2nd October 2008, 02:26 AM
Sergio, kites upwind ? me neither but take a look at that speed thread. I would have thought that crossing tacks upwind could be interesting.....

Unregistered
2nd October 2008, 02:04 PM
.... In our local races the kites have begun to beat the formula guys on a race course.

It is in the same idea than to turn our back to the original aspect of our sport which was one board, one rig, able to sail any course (OLYMPIC triangle) from 2 knt to 30knt, and to now prefer FOD with the restriction of not racing if less than 6 (or 8) knt steady wind, and under a course adapted to this equipment.

I maintain that if windsurf have only one place in OG, it has to be on the best equipment able to sail any wind under the O. triangle.

FOD is not this equipment, so it has to require a second room in the OG, and if the definition of this second room is to be the most speedy & spectacular, it will be in concurrence with Kite surf, and any future improvement.
Why not?

Actually, I cannot believe that a kite can beat many sailing boats on a windward leeward course; they sail angles pretty poorly; I cannot see how they would beat a formula board upwind unless it is fluky winds or outside of the 6-30 knot range.

As for olympic triangles, the olympics have not raced triangles for a while now; the trend is towards windward leewards and trapezoids to prevent the so called parade down the reaching sides of the course, with no split gybes and few opportunities to pass. Most of the planing classes use WL courses exactly like formula.

The best equipment to sail....hmmmm..... that all depends on how you set the objectives for that. Most reflective of what average sailors use? The olympics should be on a futura type boat with a 7m with extremely minimal pumping. Most reflective of what racers use? Could be formula or could be RSX or could be longboard depending where you are. most reflective of the state of the art of the sport? Full carbon ultra light rig blah blah blah costing $20k per board. Most practical for 3-30 knots? Probably a longboard. Most practical for 6-30 knots? Probably formula. Most far for small to large people? Depends on restrictions.

So you can immediately see that there is no single answer that will make everyone happy.

The 49er and tornado AFAIK are considered planing classes and therefore have wind limits; they are not supposed to race in sub 6 knots; thus the idea of setting a lower limit is not unusual; if foiling moths were ever in the olympics (and I suspect that will occur in 2016) then we may see a limit. However, all these classes CAN race in sub 6 knots, they just don't look quite as cool. Formula starts to get very very ugly in 2-3 knots; longboards look ultra ugly as they pump their way around, but at least they can still race; after all no one watches windsurf racing anyway :-) and definitely not a pump fest (even though it is very skillful, requires athleticism and rewards winners, I don't deny that).

The only drawback of formula is the sub 6 knots. Big rig; the reality is longboards run 9m and bigger these days too. Personally, I think the answer is to go back to the centreboard fin, which is physically bolted into the board similar to the learner boards, thus providing upwind ability; when a certain flag comes out, all formula boards have to attach their centre fin which cannot be removed, and then you can race in even 1 knot, as the boards can go upwind just like a start board. Minimal extra weight (less than 1kg) and everyone stays the same. The entire race stays centrefin down as long as at the start the flag is up for centrefins. Could even be a clip in system. But you race the entire race with the fin down mode once you start. It is a precaution to ensure that racing ALWAYS occurs, and these races get discarded the moment the planing races are complete.

As soon as we have constant 6 knots minimum, down comes the flag and away we go with planing racing.

It is the retracting centrecase that is adding countless kilos on the weight of the board.

fran4065
3rd October 2008, 04:29 PM
The only drawback of formula is the sub 6 knots. Big rig; the reality is longboards run 9m and bigger these days too. Personally, I think the answer is to go back to the centreboard fin, which is physically bolted into the board similar to the learner boards, thus providing upwind ability; when a certain flag comes out, all formula boards have to attach their centre fin which cannot be removed, and then you can race in even 1 knot, as the boards can go upwind just like a start board. Minimal extra weight (less than 1kg) and everyone stays the same. The entire race stays centrefin down as long as at the start the flag is up for centrefins. Could even be a clip in system. But you race the entire race with the fin down mode once you start. It is a precaution to ensure that racing ALWAYS occurs, and these races get discarded the moment the planing races are complete.

As soon as we have constant 6 knots minimum, down comes the flag and away we go with planing racing.

It is the retracting centrecase that is adding countless kilos on the weight of the board.

OK for me!
I like it!

Aco
3rd October 2008, 05:28 PM
Personally, I think the answer is to go back to the centreboard fin, which is physically bolted into the board similar to the learner boards, thus providing upwind ability; when a certain flag comes out, all formula boards have to attach their centre fin which cannot be removed, and then you can race in even 1 knot, as the boards can go upwind just like a start board. Minimal extra weight (less than 1kg) and everyone stays the same.
...
It is the retracting centrecase that is adding countless kilos on the weight of the board.
OK for me!
I like it!
The solution in this direction is actually even simpler and is/was called MONGO:
an over-sized formula fin with insane surface, which does not require ANY additional weight or design modifications to the board because it fits inside the default Deep-Tuttle.

The problem I see with these solutions is another:
the Formula in sub-planing mode looks just poor with every sailing class known to mankind effortlessly passing by at hyper-speed...

This brings me back to the 1rig+2 boards (Formula+Serenity) solution that some of us have already proposed as "always-fast-windsurfer" solution, but unfortunately didn't get much attention...

Regards,
Aco

eli
7th October 2008, 03:38 AM
jeez. I have been totally away from windsurfing for a few years and see that it's still the same old same old. Wow. The bickering on this thread is funny.
Can someone just message me when a choice has been made. I want to get back into racing and have just given my country's association (antigua and barbuda) my feeling on the issue. For me it's cost as much as it performance and representation. All the talk and blame for why windsurfing is so different in 2008 from what it was back in 1984 has much to do with cost and constant development/change. NP's RS:X is mad expensive in my opinion and like sven said at the start of this thread... it will fail to exist the moment it's dropped. Let's say i wanted to buy gear for a few of the racers in my country so that we could do some training.... I would much rather buy the starboard version for two reasons.
1- it's cheaper
2- i would sail it even if i wasn't training for the olympics.

Who would go sailing on an imco or even an RS:X for the hell of it in a years time if tomorrow they chose a different board?
I like the word "artificial" as it describes the former olympic classes. What else do i have to do to get the formula board chosen? Any help i can offer from my country's end?

Remi
7th October 2008, 06:19 AM
Hi Eli,

Nice to have news from you and your country.
The RSX was chosen over the IMCO in 2004 for 2008 games and now we propose the FOD for 2012.
The Formula is really famous and interest a lot of racers around the world with out the Olympic Ring and the FOD is exactly in this spirit with an inexpensive price to compare to the RSX who came more expensive again.

The FOD was in Portimao for presentation in the FW World and show that is was working from 6 to 25 knots who is exactly the new ISAF policy for the wind.

All the best and hope to se you soon

249
7th October 2008, 03:47 PM
Eli, you asked "Who would go sailing on an imco or even an RS:X for the hell of it in a years time if tomorrow they chose a different board?"

Lots of people would. The numbers have already been put up here; in all the major windsurfing countries I can find national rankings and national title results for, more people race boards with centreboards than race Formula. And most of them are NOT Olympians on RSXs, but kids on T293s and other sailors on longboards

That's not saying Formula is not a fantastic class with amazing performance; of course it is. But the simple fact is that thousands of sailors who are keen enough and good enough to sail at national lever DO prefer sailing on boards that aren't Formula.

Unless you regard such people with contempt - and many of them are smart and hot sailors, like the two-time PWA world cup overall champ who sails longboards at my club - you have to admit that they must do it because it suits them; just like FW suits many other people. Why not admit that we don't all have to like the same thing?

eli
7th October 2008, 04:56 PM
Why not admit that we don't all have to like the same thing?

Strange thing to say, but possibly not. Since i started racing in 1984 i have seen plenty of people sailing boards with center boards, but most of them did it back in the old days. I know i live in a different place than you do, but I do travel quite a bit. I don't see the people you do out joy riding on boards with centerboards. Hold on, are you putting learners in with your data? My girlfriend much prefers a board with a centerboard but she only just learned how to sail. Give her a few more weeks and she will never sail one again. She needs help getting it into the water.

249
8th October 2008, 02:42 AM
As I said, the data comes from national titles and national racing rankings, so therefore very few of them would be learners.

What people cruise on, and why, are other matters. And whether the gear that people use when cruising is the sort of gear we should use when racing for Olympic medals is another question entirely; put it this way, when I ride to work I don't see anyone on the sort of bike they use for the triathlon or track bike medals, and you don't see many people cruising on a 470, 49er or Tornado.

Unregistered
9th October 2008, 01:24 AM
Who would go sailing on an imco or even an RS:X for the hell of it in a years time if tomorrow they chose a different board?
I like the word "artificial" as it describes the former olympic classes. What else do i have to do to get the formula board chosen? Any help i can offer from my country's end?

yet more wooly thinking.

More people race boards with center boards than race Formula. Fact

Artificial? the FOD class is artificial- it doesnt even exist, some people want to create it.

fran4065
9th October 2008, 06:58 AM
My girlfriend much prefers a board with a centerboard but she only just learned how to sail. Give her a few more weeks and she will never sail one again. She needs help getting it into the water.

When she will be expert, try with her a long distance (on a fast long board) along your beautiful Antigua coast... maybe she will not be interested in the beach practice of just sailing full-speed-cross-wind every week-end.

Unregistered
9th October 2008, 08:18 AM
she sounds hot to me
fast learner, does what she is told, like a 50s stepford wife!

Remi
9th October 2008, 09:29 AM
Hi Unregistered,

THe FOD is the 2012 proposal from the Formula Windsurfing class and this is not a small class.

Does the RSX was a class before to get Olympic?

Does this class will continue with out the Olympic rings?

The FW class is really famous around the World because people are interest about his performances and sensations.

All the best

All the best

Unregistered
14th October 2008, 03:59 PM
Again- to repeat post 38- what kind of racing is proposed for the FOD class in 6-8k?

Aco
16th October 2008, 03:10 AM
Again- to repeat post 38- what kind of racing is proposed for the FOD class in 6-8k?
I am even more interested in what racing is proposed for the FOD class in 2-6 knots, which are BY FAR the most common wind conditions around the world? For example here right now it blows 4 knots...

I understand that the minimum for WS at olympics is 6 knots, but I see 2 big problems with this limit:

(1) Planing in 6 knots?
Owning a Formula and 12.5m2 rig at my 73 kg when my Windmaster (and local weather station) show 8 knots average I have to pump fiercely to get on the plane.
When they say 6 knots I do not stand a chance in real-world conditions (chop etc.) and my sailing colleagues on formulas neither.
Either all local weather stations and the Windmaster are cheating or I am missing something?

(2) Even assuming that the olympians can plane in 6 knots wind (I have my doubts), what do you do if the wind does not consistently blow enough and the olympic event is cancelled? We would be the ONLY class that is not able to have an event in sub-planing conditions.

Don't get me wrong: I ADORE my Formula and given the chance to choose I would choose planing conditions and Formula over my Serenity/my IMCO/my Hybrid Formula any day.

BUT unfortunately most of the time it is NOT blowing enough for my beloved Formula - this is true for most places over the world (!), which is why I cannot see how Formula could be a suitable candidate for the olympics.

Just my 2 cents.
Best Wishes, Aco

ceri
16th October 2008, 04:42 AM
hi ,
we are not proposing to race in 2>6 knots ; you cannot "race" in 2>6 knots ; RSX cannot race in 2>6 knots .
It is possible to plane on a formula board with 11.0 m in 6 knots; an RSX with 9.5 cannot plane in 6 knots.
Not everyone will be able to plane in 6 knots - it may take a little pumping to get going (eg. at the start ) and to keep going at times ( eg. in the transitions ).
In the olympic regatta there will be less than 40 boards in the mens start ; less than 30 in the womens start. In the medal race only 10 !
Why not mirror olympic regatta for other international events and major championships - especially in light winds ?
Why 2 fleets of max 60 leading to Gold and Silver; why not 3 fleets of 40.?
or 4 fleets of 30 ?
Fair racing (planning races ) should be the priority.
More races and shorter races . Why 49er 16 race series; why not boards ?

One supporter of RSX told me - "we want RSX because we want to race in NO WIND". Another spectacle like the mens medal race in China ?
This supporter, incidentally was not a rsx sailor !

Unregistered
16th October 2008, 05:02 AM
Remember the raceboard class in the late 80s early 90s.
it was thriving, lots of competition amongst sailors and lots of equipment to choose from.
And then came the mistral one design as the olympic board. It was a raceboard with a smaller sail, fin and centreboard. It was a slower package but the sailors were fitter and smarter.

History will repeat if FOD gets selected on Nov 7th

Most current formula guys with their state of the art exspensive gear will get thrashed by some unknown french guy who isn't on the french team or flogged by 10 guys from china.
When this happens people will think whats the point on sailing this class anymore, I look stupid and give up. Some of the top pros may change to FOD. And the class will fade away.

And after a one olympic cycle the class may get bumped off or replace by another windsurfer class. because let be honest racing in 6 knots doesn't work, especially at the start where itis crowded and to get on the plane you need to beam reach. and the formula and tornado is a dumped down form of racing where you generally hit the laylines and don't engaged in close tactical racing or multiple tacking in light and varible conditions.

Sailing formula is really boring in light winds it is geared around planing and planning only.

With the RSX in the light you can pinch or foot depending on how the breeze is filling in and also you can foot deeply in a gust with the centreboard up and mast track back to separate form the fleet and be in a better position for the new wind etc. There are many options and its fun. Sure its still a bit of a pig but the formula is a bigger pig.

Remember we are looking for a racing class not some PWA forgotten about class.

Why didn't starboard develop a better hybrid if they wanted a piece of the pie.

Why wasn't their another design competition how come only SB is proposing a change?

I hope everything will be ok. i dont want to upset people just discussing

Unregistered
16th October 2008, 05:06 AM
It is possible to plane on a formula board with 11.0 m in 6 knots;


Ok if you continue to say this enough, people might believe you BUT what happens when you get 30-40 or even 60 FOD boards on the line in 6 knots?
1/4 maybe will get off the line. Its not different than the formula class.
At least the RSX class has a chance to show their athleticism in those conditions.
FOD would be just pitiful in 6 knots with a fleet of more than 10 boards!

Again to reiterate- what kind of courses are being proposed for the FOD in minimal wind conditions?
The proponents of the FOD class have been avoiding this question for a long time.

steveC
16th October 2008, 05:41 AM
Aco has pointed this out more than once, but the two board scenario is the best overall concept. Depending on the wind, you go Formula or Serenity concepts. The one board that suits all conditions is an outmoded concept. I like the idea of choice (A or B) to complete the task. I think the 2 board concept builds the level of the sailor, and develops the consummate sailor overall. The one horse concept is shortsided.

Unregistered
16th October 2008, 05:47 AM
The one horse concept is shortsided.
It may be shortsided (sic) but those are the rules ISAF has laid out for the Olympic classes.

Perhaps windsurfing needs to leave the discipline of sailing in the Olympics and follow snowboarding's example a few years ago. Correct me if I am wrong but snowboarding used to be under the regulation of the sking authority in the Olympics.
Imagine showcasing the sport at the Olympics with a windy venue that had course racing, slalom, freestyle and waves.

249
16th October 2008, 04:54 PM
Windsurfing has no chance of getting into the Games by itself.

Rugby, a large sport played at pro level and earning millions from TV, cannot get into the Olympics.

Baseball, a large sport played at pro levels and earning millions from TV, cannot stay in the Games.

Softball can't get in. Golf, for heaven's sake, can't get in.

The IOC demands a lot from the sports that are in the Games; check out the IOC's Olympic Programme Commission reports, which are on the web. That will give you a view of what they demand from sports.

Windsurfing cannot dictate where its Olympic event will be held. That is the decision of the Olympic city. Since we don't even have anything like the clout, numbers or organisation to even get into the Games, we have no chance of demanding where we will compete. The entire sport of sailing, which is vastly bigger than windsurfing, cannot dictate where it competes.

Since we started showcasing the sport in windy venues, the sport has declined to about 8-12% of what it used to be.....not much of a success story there.

I'm a fan of the two-board concept, but it's not necessarily shortsighted not to go for it; boat sailing is a hugely broadminded sport. What other sport encompasses everything from 1/2 hour beer can races to single-handed round the world events that take months? What other sport goes from hot racing for 100 year old boats to the latest full-carbon pre-preg and Nomex raceboats? What other sport has everything from home-built 9kg hydrofoiling hulls to 60 year old wooden boats competing at a high level? What other sport has everything from wooden-masted gaffers to full wing rigs?

Why not respect the boat sailors, who get so many more participants and so many more kids, and learn from them?

Aco
16th October 2008, 10:07 PM
hi, we are not proposing to race in 2>6 knots;
I know, but I believe that this is exactly the problem when 2-6 knots is the most common wind strength in most places around the world (here it is again blowing 4 knots right now...)
you cannot "race" in 2>6 knots;
Why not?

Sailing races are regularly held at these wind strengths.
I would even say (these being the most common conditions) that probably the majority of sailing races are held in these wind strengths (WS again being the exception sitting on the beach most of the time...).

For example this weekend here there was a major regatta with almost 2000 sailboats sailing in 1-3 knots. The slower part of the fleet abandoned the race because it would take too much time, but the victory contenders finished the race and with a shorter regatta it could certainly be doable for everyone.
RSX cannot race in 2>6 knots .
Again, why not?
With the RSX you certainly can race in those conditions.
One supporter of RSX told me - "we want RSX because we want to race in NO WIND".
Probably he wanted to say that
"we want RSX because we want to BE ABLE TO race in NO WIND"

There is a big difference: I do not believe that any sailor would
"want to race in no wind"...
Another spectacle like the mens medal race in China ?
Nobody is saying that racing in light winds is spectacular:
in my post I even said that I prefer planing with Formula over any type of displacement racing.

BUT I also prefer a light wind race over "no-race" any day.
Fair winds to all.
Aco

ceri
17th October 2008, 02:06 AM
sorry - i cannot accept you calling a sailing event in no wind - "a race " ! Call it something else - dont call it a race.

And when i say sailing - i specifally refer to sailing a windsurfer. I do not want to get involved in discussing what dinghy sailors define as sailing or racing !

Unregistered
17th October 2008, 03:40 AM
R.

Why didn't starboard develop a better hybrid if they wanted a piece of the pie.



Ouch. And why not choose the Bic for the next Olympics ?

With regards to condition I think it's interesting to see what happened with the Mountain Biking for London. A Commercial/Administrative decision was made to race in a park. The riders took a look and declared it inappropriate for Mountain Biking and threaten to use Cyclo Cross bikes. The soprts governing body backed the riders and the course had to be moved by the host administration to somewhere a little more suited. Maybe sailing needs to take a lead from this. (Not that's there's anything wrong with Weymouth - stands a decent chance of breeze, but for the future).

Aco
17th October 2008, 03:48 AM
sorry - i cannot accept you calling a sailing event in no wind - "a race " ! Call it something else - dont call it a race.
Of course not - this is just the widespread "Hi-wind" windsurfing jargon that underestimates the wind conditions as follows:

Hurricane ---> "Epic Conditions" (all the way...)
Storm ---> "Strong Wind"
Strong Wind ---> "Moderate Wind"
Moderate Wind ---> "Light Wind"
Light Wind ---> "No Wind" (what we are talking about here, say 2-6 knots ;))
No Wind ---> Vacuum :D

To sum it up:
when average "Hi-Wind" windsurfers are talking about "No Wind", the conditions are usually "Light Wind", sometimes even planable with Formula (!) - and yes, I believe we can call this a race.
And when i say sailing - i specifally refer to sailing a windsurfer. I do not want to get involved in discussing what dinghy sailors define as sailing or racing !
Of course not:
we refer to sailing a windsurfer with the most representative windsurfing board ---> the one that gave Windsurfing its name ---> the Windsurfer One Design, which of course can successfully be sailed in 2-6 knots ;)

Kind Regards,
Aco

Unregistered
17th October 2008, 08:50 AM
it happens like this in a big olympic classes regatta
you share a course with other fleets and there are a lot or races to get through
so the boards might be on with the 49ers
some days you might start in the mornings and as soon as there is 6 knots BANG you are racing. Sometimes you are held on shore and sometimes you have sail a long way to get there.
And often even when it was a only mistral or rsx regatta there was an advantage to being a light wind specialist because the first race each day or the first 3 races or the regatta where in light winds.

the formula guys pick nice places, beautiful beaches and windy places.

but the dingys are differents and you have change to fit

formula would be a round peg in a square hole

you should have equipment that works in light winds

Unregistered
17th October 2008, 09:30 AM
does formula really want to be olympic?

does formula really want to lose control of their class?

why do they want to be olympic?

to shift a lot of units? I dont think so because it was reported formula asked Starboard to do this.

I guess formula want to be seen as the pinicale of the sport!
But it wont be formula as you know it now

it will be tom ashley and the rsx guys again

Remi
17th October 2008, 11:47 AM
Hi Unregistered,

You ask many questions but never answer the question we ask you.

Just remind you some points :

The RSX was a class before to get Olympic?
The RSX will continue if it lost the Olympic rings and why?

You have the answer already concerning the race in light winds with different fleet of 30 racers on a starting line for 100 is really enough space to take a good start.

During the World but also during this past months, Allisson show everybodies that the FOD work perfectly from 6 to 25 knots who is exactly the ISAF policy for the wind.

The FOD is a proposal from the Formula Windsurfing Class who was propose to Neil Pryde and Star-Board respectively for sails and boards. Finally Star-Board propose the all package with Severne and Deboichet custom fins.

The results is amaising due to that we focus on wind range (6 to 25 knots) but not in performances in a short wind range as the Formula Windsurfing class who you can use 3 sails and 3 fins.

Please notice also we have only one international event was cancell due to no wind since 2001.

To answer your question, Yes Formula Windsurfing Class want to be Olympic with the FOD and represent the sport as best as possible. This will interest much more media and people than the disaster we watch on TV for the medal race in Quindao. Yes the place was really bad but it's definitelly not the case for 2012.

Do you think that RSX sailors can not do well on the FOD?

Hope you will answer all this questions.

All the best

Unregistered
17th October 2008, 06:36 PM
I loved the medal race, it was intense and then NZL pick the breeze well coming to the top mark and pumped real hard. he held his lead to the end and after the race he bent exhausted could hardly celebrate. and what about the isreal guy he is a machine he went back to restart then sail through the fleet (not any fleet the olympic top 10) to get the bronze and gbr looked broken.
It couldn't have been better race.

these guys will be at 2012 whether its rsx or fod and not the pwa multi disciplined pretty boys.

remi I hope you are right about your design package
not everyone shares your faith

I remember the mistral was critised because it slowed down too easily when not pumped making it too physical
but the fod is shorter and wide meaning its dead in the water when not planning it has no displacing speed. it will favour air rowers over skill based sailors

maybe not a bad thing

Remi
18th October 2008, 07:52 AM
Hi Unregistered,

I am sure the Olympic racers will be there and do well, but you are really underestimate the guys from PWA and particularly the ones who do well in Formula Windsurfing like :

Gonzalo Costa Hoevel, Ross Williams, Julien Quentel, Pawel Halvaty, Denis Little, Allison Shreeves, Michael Polanowski, Whillem Shurmman, Marta Havalty, Sarah Hebert, Olga Masivets, Anieska Pietrasik, Morane Demont, Steeve Allen, Jesper Vestrestrom, etc...

Please understand that is not a war between this 2 worlds best racers (RSX and Formula) but join them on the same board to have more people in the Olympic class and to became more spectacular and interresting by the public and media.

"remi I hope you are right about your design package
not everyone shares your faith"

Did they try it? And for information already proove that it 's working in the past months

Still waiting the answer concerning the question in post number 85

All the best

unregistered
18th October 2008, 06:42 PM
Remi, with all due respect, the RS:X sailors have had to conform to decisions made by the ISAF commitee over several years.

Do you really believe that the big Formula sailors who you so plainly indicated would do well if not better on the FOD when competing against the current RS:X sailors. To switch the class over again would only make matters worse.

For example- where would the skill for railing or pumping on the rail to make the board go upwind on the mistral and RS:X go? Nowhere...

Where would the decision- making on whether to raise or lower the daggerboard go?- Nowhere...

Where would the fitness that the sailors have dedicated themselves for so long go? Nowhere

These sailors have a profession which their national commitee understands and represents. To converge it together with the FOD class would only make the formula class die out as formula sailors realize that windsurfing will go to the next level and has never been so serious to them. The mistral and RS:X were classes for these few athletes who are willing to sacrifice many things, be it money, time...e.t.c. To take away what has meant so much to them seems unjust to me.

I only hope that you can realise in time and perhaps understand that introducing a new class which can plane in '6 knots and up' is the main argument for the formula sailors, and would perhaps be too rash a decision in terms of changing the sailing classes.

Regards,

ceri
18th October 2008, 08:45 PM
Hi , are you an RSX or FW racer? and what level ?
even better , who are you ?
ceri FW chairman

Unregistered
18th October 2008, 09:48 PM
there are dimension limits BUT..

bigger fin ,
wider and bit shorter board...

= plane in less wind
basically you become a foiler,

Unregistered
19th October 2008, 01:39 AM
Hi , are you an RSX or FW racer? and what level ?
even better , who are you ?
ceri FW chairman
Does it matter who I am and even who he is???
This is the *board free forum.
Everyone is entitled to their autonomous opinion.

Ceri/Remi- Can you answer what type of racing women will be doing in 6-8k with their 9.5 rigs? Certainly not planning...

ceri
19th October 2008, 04:10 AM
are you even a windsurfer?

Unregistered
19th October 2008, 04:19 AM
as opposed to a serial committee member off on a jolly?

Remi
19th October 2008, 05:41 AM
Hi Unregistered,

I answer all your questions but we can say it's not your case.

But you seems to know a lot in Olympics sailors, so can you give name in this class who do well in Formula at the World or European?

For exemple Julien Quentel who just try like this an RSX (and first time on dagger board style) before to go to the World finish 13 way in front the French Team in Guarda Lake.

As you know racers addapt their weight for each class to be competitve as much as possible and this case is valid for RSX and Formula sailors.

So I don't see where is the problems, I am sure all of them will do their best to give us a great spectacle.

All the best

Unregistered
19th October 2008, 08:04 AM
well done to mr Quentel. respect for him

and i think jesper v gave it a good crack and won a few windy races from memrory.

Steve Allen (then FW world champ)scrapped into the gold fleet but his federation said he is not olympic standard. Steve probably would still be FW world champ if he turn up but he is a professional dancer now. Respect to him also, he has a family so he goes where the money is.

Allisonaus911
19th October 2008, 02:16 PM
Hi All,
There seems to be a lot of speculation as to if the FOD kit can be planed or even raced in 6 knots. I have proved that this again and again in 5 regattas this year against open mens fleets. To put some things into perspective...

1) I have got planing on the FOD 9.5m women's and the FOD 11m mens kits in 5 knots. Some wind readings were 4-6knots at the time from the boat anchored (not drifting!). I did this in Portugal in April, in UK, Poland and in US in May. It was flat water, small chop, and swelly conditions.

2) I had to pump to get onto the plane, perhaps 4-6 pumps and I can hook in depending on wave conditions. Maybe if there were wind shaddows of other boards up to 8 pumps. Once planing I can hook in and only needed to pump in lulls, or out of tacks and gibes.

3) I have raced in 6 knots in the open mens fleets at these regattas with both the 9.5m and 11m rigs, to prove that it can be raced in these conditions. In fact my best results were in the lighter wind on the FOD gear.

4) I am the heaviest in the womens fleet, so if I can get planing in 5-6knots with the 9.5 then I'm sure the girls 10-15kg lighter than me will have no problems. All the RS:X sailors know how to pump, so they will find it very easy to race and to get planing in fleet situations. If you can sail an RS:X you can sail anything. The trick with Formula is to not sail out of the gusts when its light wind.

5) With regards to efficiency around the course, we did a marathon in the US, I came 3rd out of the open Formula's and overall my time being about 1 hour. The next best R:SX and long boards finished 30min behind. This was in conditions from 2-9knots with over 100 boards on the line taking everyones wind for a down wind start!

6) There are a lot of sailors and people out there judging the FOD kit without even trying it first. Not only more fun than RS:X, but more efficient, more fun, less injuries, 2/3 of the price, easier to carry therefore less damage to gear at the beach etc, cheaper to travel with baggage requirements, juniors are much more likely to continue with Olympic class with the FOD than with RS:X.

7) One of the best things about the FOD kit is, for those competing for the Olympics, they can train and compete with the open formula fleets, therefore pushing them harder while going up against equipment slightly better. Once the trails are over, they can sell the FOD kit because it is still competetive in the Formula fleet where there are many more sailors would would buy the gear. They can also continue training in their own country instead of nations having to pair up for training partners for lack of people who want to sacrifice 2 years of their life when they know they wont be selected for the Olympics and don't want to use a board that isn't fun.

8) Every single one of my RS:X boards delaminated within a year! If federations are worried about investing in a new class, they will have to replace all their RS:X's soon anyway, so why not replace them with something that is 2/3 of the price!

9) While some people say that there are some places in the world with not much wind, perhaps under 6 knots, then I would say... In Australia, we do not have the best skiing conditions, therefore those who want to go to the Olympics train in other contries with good snow like NZL. We have wonderful conditions for sailing in Australia, yet I have to travel to Europe for competition in RS:X because there are no competitors wanting to race such a heavy board... pretty expensive to live overseas between 6-10months of the year for an Olympic dream, but you do what you have to do. For those who may live in a place where there might be under 6 knots consistantly, perhaps they should buy a long board, or travel to somewhere where there is wind and competition like the rest of us.

10) ISAF rules say racing shouldn't start unless 6knots from a drifting boat! That means more than 6 knots at times. Formula will have no problems racing and getting regattas in with these conditions.

I hope this helps some of you out there understand a little more about the FOD kit. There is a report on the Formula website with more information regarding pros and cons from Formula and the RS:X kits if you are interested.

All the best,
Allison

Unregistered
19th October 2008, 04:19 PM
Interesting stuff on Farrah Hall's blog.

Start with when she has borrowed an old FW board for the Calema Midwinters;

"Although it is an old design, the board was so easy to plane compared to the RS:X that it felt like heaven......Although just the three of us made up the women’s fleet, we are all good sailors and I knew the competition between us would be fierce.....The Formula fleet was called out by race director Darren Rogers, who is from Hood River, OR and is famous for running the most efficient and professional regattas in North America. Darren will do just about anything to get a few races off, but we had three abandoned starts before the wind filled in! The wind filled to about 8 knots, enough to get the lightweights and pros planing….who finished in about 25 minutes. The rest of us, including the girls, were slogging along only planing in the puffs. I finished right behind Natalia, but unfortunately our half of the fleet didn’t make the time limit! Darren, unsympathetic character that he is, told us all “tough luck.”..... Although the first day of racing was not so great, the second was even worse. With no wind almost the entire day, the Formula fleet languished on the beach. Darren called us all out and we ran another few abandoned starts...... ........ Finally! We sailed three races in 12 knots, which was perfect for the 10.0 taped special. I had some great starts and consistently placed ahead of Karen, and ahead of Natalia in one race. Formula is very gear-intensive, and in one case Natalia smoked me pretty good on a broad reach to the finish line, even though I had tacked on her and was covering her. Although she had borrowed gear too, it was most decidedly newer than mine! I also got passed by sailors in the rear of the fleet catching up to me in the same manner…and lapped by the pros once! I am dying to see how fast I can sail on new Formula gear, but I think it will have to wait! I’d also like to clean up my technique too to make sure nothing is holding my speed back."

Interesting to see from her viewpoint;

1 - FW is very gear dependent;
2- In about 8 knots, USA's second best woman RSX sailor could only slog along and could not make the time limit.
3- Compared to RSX, FW felt like heaven.
4- In three days, the women got one day of racing.

registered
19th October 2008, 05:28 PM
Interesting stuff you have there unregistered, thanks for picking out key points and quotes for us all.

I am sure that you have made clear that planing in 6 knots over is hard for people who do not normally use Formula boards. But for the second best windsurfer in North America who cannot plane on a formula equipment? What can I say...that planing in light winds requires great skill and athleticism?

But then...Alisson claimed that she could get on the plane with a few pumps in 6 knots under and continue to plane. This infers that Formula equipment is very 'plane' dependant and one plane can divide the winner and the loser. However, with the RS:X equipment- you have the retractable daggerboard which can offer new tactics and give heavier sailors who find it harder to plane a chance to catch up and even an opportunity to cross that competitor.

Just one question to everyone- maybe they should organize a competition between FOD sailors and the RS:X over a range of wind conditions and maybe swap equipment halfway through the event to see if the positions of the fleet change. It would be interesting to see and compare the differences in terms of equipment

=]

all the best

Unregistered
20th October 2008, 05:45 AM
during the mistral years the men and women had the same size rigs, which has its advantages.
when the rsx came along the women were given a 8.5 rig instead of the 9.5 mens rig.
the reason was 'we dont want any fat chicks'

but now starboard is proposing fat chicks with the 9.5 rig

Unregistered
20th October 2008, 07:28 AM
So when do we get to see BD go against AA in Formula??

Remi
20th October 2008, 11:56 AM
Hi Unregistered,

The average weight for women is 55 kgs to 70 and 70 to 85 for men.

So the racers who want to be competitive in this class have to be in the weight range.

All the best

steveC
21st October 2008, 01:26 AM
From what I understand, Dunkerbeck has absolutely no interest in sailing formula equipment, so I'd be mighty surprised to see him participating in any kind of formula competition in the future.

Unregistered
21st October 2008, 03:28 AM
But he used to race longboards. Discuss.

The hybrids never seem to plane as freely as formula, due to weight I guess. I find that actually makes them more physical in moderate conditions - it's the greater drag I guess.

Unregistered
22nd October 2008, 08:24 PM
Hi All,
There seems to be a lot of speculation as to if the FOD kit can be planed or even raced in 6 knots. I have proved that this again and again in 5 regattas this year against open mens fleets. To put some things into perspective...

1) I have got planing on the FOD 9.5m women's and the FOD 11m mens kits in 5 knots. Some wind readings were 4-6knots at the time from the boat anchored (not drifting!). I did this in Portugal in April, in UK, Poland and in US in May. It was flat water, small chop, and swelly conditions.

2) I had to pump to get onto the plane, perhaps 4-6 pumps and I can hook in depending on wave conditions. Maybe if there were wind shaddows of other boards up to 8 pumps. Once planing I can hook in and only needed to pump in lulls, or out of tacks and gibes.

3) I have raced in 6 knots in the open mens fleets at these regattas with both the 9.5m and 11m rigs, to prove that it can be raced in these conditions. In fact my best results were in the lighter wind on the FOD gear.

4) I am the heaviest in the womens fleet, so if I can get planing in 5-6knots with the 9.5 then I'm sure the girls 10-15kg lighter than me will have no problems. All the RS:X sailors know how to pump, so they will find it very easy to race and to get planing in fleet situations. If you can sail an RS:X you can sail anything. The trick with Formula is to not sail out of the gusts when its light wind.

5) With regards to efficiency around the course, we did a marathon in the US, I came 3rd out of the open Formula's and overall my time being about 1 hour. The next best R:SX and long boards finished 30min behind. This was in conditions from 2-9knots with over 100 boards on the line taking everyones wind for a down wind start!

6) There are a lot of sailors and people out there judging the FOD kit without even trying it first. Not only more fun than RS:X, but more efficient, more fun, less injuries, 2/3 of the price, easier to carry therefore less damage to gear at the beach etc, cheaper to travel with baggage requirements, juniors are much more likely to continue with Olympic class with the FOD than with RS:X.

7) One of the best things about the FOD kit is, for those competing for the Olympics, they can train and compete with the open formula fleets, therefore pushing them harder while going up against equipment slightly better. Once the trails are over, they can sell the FOD kit because it is still competetive in the Formula fleet where there are many more sailors would would buy the gear. They can also continue training in their own country instead of nations having to pair up for training partners for lack of people who want to sacrifice 2 years of their life when they know they wont be selected for the Olympics and don't want to use a board that isn't fun.

8) Every single one of my RS:X boards delaminated within a year! If federations are worried about investing in a new class, they will have to replace all their RS:X's soon anyway, so why not replace them with something that is 2/3 of the price!

9) While some people say that there are some places in the world with not much wind, perhaps under 6 knots, then I would say... In Australia, we do not have the best skiing conditions, therefore those who want to go to the Olympics train in other contries with good snow like NZL. We have wonderful conditions for sailing in Australia, yet I have to travel to Europe for competition in RS:X because there are no competitors wanting to race such a heavy board... pretty expensive to live overseas between 6-10months of the year for an Olympic dream, but you do what you have to do. For those who may live in a place where there might be under 6 knots consistantly, perhaps they should buy a long board, or travel to somewhere where there is wind and competition like the rest of us.

10) ISAF rules say racing shouldn't start unless 6knots from a drifting boat! That means more than 6 knots at times. Formula will have no problems racing and getting regattas in with these conditions.

I hope this helps some of you out there understand a little more about the FOD kit. There is a report on the Formula website with more information regarding pros and cons from Formula and the RS:X kits if you are interested.

All the best,
Allison


Allison what is your weight? Were you pumping or sailing? If pumping do you suggest pumping to be the new Olympic sport.

Unregistered
23rd October 2008, 04:05 AM
pumping is normal and heathly in windsurfing. The olympics will be extreme pumping but that is better than trying to police no pumps

formula windsurfing has being in the past for old rich guys

FOD seeks to change this which is good

Allisonaus911
23rd October 2008, 08:47 AM
My weight changes regularly depending on what class I'm doing and how hard I'm working. For Olympic trials last year I got down to 62kg, but my most comfortable weight is about 70kg. For speed I got up to 73kg.
When I got planing in 5-6knots this year with the 9.5 FOD kit I was at 70kg.

Formula One Design will not eliminate pumping all together. You will still have to pump to get planing, out of transitions like tacks and gibes, through lulls, off the starting line to get the advantage and perhaps if its light wind to get a bit more speed in the lighter patches. We have never claimed that there will be no pumping, so for those people who love pumping so much, don't worry you will still get your chance.

I don't think its fair or reasonable in the R:SX class that the women are still track forward centreboard down and pumping until 12 or 13+knots before we get to plane. Not only that, we have to use the beating strap and the front reaching strap to put our feet in while pumping to try and rail the wide board; so our back foot is going in crooked putting a huge amount of pressure on our outer ankles while we are pumping so hard. The men only have to do this until 9 or 10 knots before they get to plane up wind.
Then once we are planing the angles are so low that we have to sail about 1km out to sea to even get to the layline, this is not media friendly or course friendly for those venues who have small areas to race in.

Since 2005 I don't remember a regatta where we had more than 2 planing races in any competition in RS:X. So for someone who isn't 55kg, this makes it very hard to be competetive. We would race in the morning when there was no wind "because there was supposed to be no wind in China", and then sail back in the afternoon in a nice seabreeze. Its time we start racing in wind again and not pushing to race in under 6 knots because we can.

6 knots is not that much wind to wait for. I remember a few years ago, we all used to whistle and bash on our sails so that we wouldn't race in under 6 knots (This was when when we were on the Mistral One Design). I think its time to go back to the rule of not racing in under 6 knots, and use equipment that is fun, easy to use, competetive with current equipment, efficient and cheap!
Regards, Allison

Unregistered
23rd October 2008, 06:22 PM
Is pumping really good? We had virtually no pumping for years, and racing was much more popular. The fastest-growing class in windsurfing has no pumping.

Sure, restricting pumping can be a problem, but the dinghies manage to do it pretty damn well.

Sure, restricting pumping will slow sailors down. So what? Restricting touching the ball slows scoring in football. Restricting forward passes slows scoring in rugby. Restricting F1 in many ways slows F1 cars. Restricting javelin design reduces the distance they can be thrown. Restricting bike design slows down the Tour de France and the Olympic cyclists.

Restrictions are part of just about every sport.

Ken
24th October 2008, 12:33 AM
To be successful in a no pumping race, one is forced to cheat to keep up if it's a large fleet. It's almost impossible to control unless you have a half dozen or more patrol boats and even then it won't be eliminated. The honest sailors get the short end of the stick.

Clearly, I didn't like it when I raced in those conditions. Very frustrating.

Allowing pumping puts everyone on a level playing field.

Ken

sergio k
24th October 2008, 01:21 AM
Pumping is a normal part of avg. windsurfer's set of skills, why would there be a Q about
it, I don't get it?? The only windsurfers that don't pump during a sesh are beginners or
some older group that might have some physical limitations and just want to do a low
impact crusing, that doesn't describe anyone going to OG

Unregistered
24th October 2008, 12:22 PM
Is pumping really good? We had virtually no pumping for years, and racing was much more popular. The fastest-growing class in windsurfing has no pumping.

Sure, restricting pumping can be a problem, but the dinghies manage to do it pretty damn well.


If you speak to top laser sailors, there is great difficulty in policing kenetics in a laser with DSQs and other stuff going on all the time.

With a rig that pivots, and a logical reason to encourage pumping (to get planing) I can't see how a high level competition in windsurfing can avoid pumping - the Kona is ok now (I assume we are talking about the Kona) but as soon as a higher level is going on, the pumping will come back; for sure the Kona will plane up earlier with pumping than not (as will any board or boat).

So...the idea of less pumping is theoretically good, but you do still always have to have some and then how to police the rest??

Not an easy one.

BTW this 6 knot limit is theoretically in place for the 49ers and Tornados, i.e. it is not only for windsurfers AFAIK.

Unregistered
24th October 2008, 07:53 PM
Hi Remi,

What's the target price for the FOD kit?

What will happen if the IOC does not chose FOD for the OG? Will be a class anyway or you guys will just forget it?

You know, it's almost impossible to regular guys like me to race FW these days, I didn't win in the lottery and can't pay US$ 1,000.00 or more in a fin, US$ 1,200.00 in a new sail (just one)... I really hope the FOD to fire up, so we can race in a good leveled class.

Please guys, don't come with the longboard thing, the class virtually doesn't exist in my country.

Thanks.

Unregistered
25th October 2008, 04:37 PM
Hi Remi,
I didn't win in the lottery and can't pay US$ 1,000.00 or more in a fin,

If you want to pay 300 euros for a deb fin and loose the quality, you currently have to buy 3-4 fins to get a decent one.
With the kashy's you simply buy 1 and know what you are getting.
You keep it for 2-3 years and sell it and buy a new one.
Whats the difference? You have to pay for quality.
You think the r-20 production fin the FOD will be supplied with will be any better than the previous debs?

There is a place for everything, including the FOD - alongside the Formula class.
Like Remi mentioned, its not the best, but better than any alternative at the moment.

Unregistered
25th October 2008, 08:34 PM
If you want to pay 300 euros for a deb fin and loose the quality, you currently have to buy 3-4 fins to get a decent one.
With the kashy's you simply buy 1 and know what you are getting.
You keep it for 2-3 years and sell it and buy a new one.
Whats the difference? You have to pay for quality.
You think the r-20 production fin the FOD will be supplied with will be any better than the previous debs?

There is a place for everything, including the FOD - alongside the Formula class.
Like Remi mentioned, its not the best, but better than any alternative at the moment.

I Just think I can pay for the FOD kit and can't pay for FW with this lunar prices, that's it.

Unregistered
26th October 2008, 05:29 AM
You get what you pay for.

Remi
26th October 2008, 01:32 PM
Hi All,

The FOD have been create to have enought good equipment to race between 6 to 25 knots at a inexpensive price.

For the last World we receive and use 10 FOD fins from Deboichet and all of them was good but yes way cheaper than a Kashy who is at 1800$ while the all FOD kit is at 2532€ without VAT.

The FOD is a good alternative to race at a resonable price and enjoy your self.

All the best

Unregistered
27th October 2008, 01:37 AM
...but what happens when you start mass producing the FOD?
Every other price of one design windsurfing equipment has always had tolerance problems!
In previous olympic quads, sailors would be forced to buy 10 different fins to fin one that worked. Deb hasn't proven they can make a consistent fin yet. How will this be any different?

Unregistered
27th October 2008, 03:01 AM
Remi,

I just want to know this: FOD will be a class even if it would not be chosen for the OG?

Unregistered
27th October 2008, 05:01 PM
If you speak to top laser sailors, there is great difficulty in policing kenetics in a laser with DSQs and other stuff going on all the time.

With a rig that pivots, and a logical reason to encourage pumping (to get planing) I can't see how a high level competition in windsurfing can avoid pumping - the Kona is ok now (I assume we are talking about the Kona) but as soon as a higher level is going on, the pumping will come back; for sure the Kona will plane up earlier with pumping than not (as will any board or boat).

So...the idea of less pumping is theoretically good, but you do still always have to have some and then how to police the rest??

Not an easy one.

BTW this 6 knot limit is theoretically in place for the 49ers and Tornados, i.e. it is not only for windsurfers AFAIK.

I do speak to top Laser sailors (had a former world champ, just back from the Olympics, around here Sunday and Wednesday last), I've got a couple of Laser title wins, and I'm welcome to train with the national Olympic Laser squad.

There are rules on pumping, we follow them, at world titles there are judges. It's no big deal.

If it stunk, we wouldn't have the situation where the sport is so popular that even those over 65 years old have to qualify at their national titles to be allowed into the over-65 year old Laser world titles.

Sure, sometimes people get DSQd for pushing the pumping rules. Sometimes people get
DSQd for pushing start lines too hard. Sometimes people get DSQd for pushing the port/starboard rule too hard. Sometimes football players get penalised for offside, sometimes cricket players get penalised for LBW, sometimes rugby players get penalsied for forward pass. No big deal, there's the rules and you follow them.

We used to ban pumping in Olympic class boards, the Olympic coach kept an eye on us at local regattas to check that no one pumped outside the rules. No big problem.

Are the gains worth the policing? That's a fair question. But there is no question that it is possible to restrict pumping and do it very effectively.

Unregistered
30th October 2008, 08:54 PM
Remi,

I just want to know this: FOD will be a class even if it would not be chosen for the OG?

I'm interested in this too. If FOD for some reason does not get selected for the Olympics in 2012 will starboard promote it as a new class anyway. I like the idea because it eliminates the gear race and allows people who can not keep up with it to be competitive. Also, it would allow FOD to prove itself for the next Olympics in 2016. I would like to add, I hope it gets selected for 2012.

WILDWINDSCA
30th October 2008, 09:33 PM
O.D. is the way to go IMHO.
Open class i think is good for testing the limits, because then it becomes a development class , but then money does become an issue.
Starboard can be complimented for proposing this format, which if it does happen i hope they stand by their word and dont escalate the price as some companies have done.
The issue is this windsurfing like many sports costs money. Tell me how many one board sailors you know?
Thus keeping prices down may even encourage existing sailors with alot of kit, to buy the FOD and start participating.

shredulato

Starboard evo 92, Stype 104, Formula 155,
Kinetic 295, Tiga 268
lots of sails , prototype 8.5, Naish 7.2, Aerotech 6.8, Severne blade- 6.2, 5.8,Naish 6.0, Neil pryde 5.2, 4.2 some good..some junk
'lots of boxes of "odds and ends" that i cannot throw out as they"may" be needed one day.
see alot of stuff...
old 1997 astro van, 3400 bucks ( more money fer kit)

Unregistered
31st October 2008, 08:08 PM
Hi Guys,
Why don't you put on a pool to know if the sailors want you to promote FOD even if ISAF fon't chose the class for the OG?

Unregistered
1st November 2008, 03:44 AM
FOD isnt a class now
and if it doesn't get the olympic rings it wont be a class

Unregistered
1st November 2008, 05:38 PM
FOD isnt a class now
and if it doesn't get the olympic rings it wont be a class

Too bad for windsurfing race if that's the truth.

ceri
3rd November 2008, 03:54 PM
the submission made to ISAF in March included Class Rules , in the standard Class Rule format liked by ISAF. A class does not have to be recognised by ISAF , but in case FOD is selected the process to become an ISAF International Class will begin.
We will wait until the decision on equipment for 2012 ( ISAF Council on 14th November ) before we plan the future.

bonitoall
3rd November 2008, 05:54 PM
Thank you for that last comment. With all due respect, I hope that the formula class gets selected for 2012, all the facts about early planing, good performance has indeed been true.

I got some first hand views when I saw a formula race going on locally, and these guys were really going fast and pointing high. They were racing against several longboards and the winds were around 12-13 knots. Let me put this frankly.

The longboards got owned.

My point is, I hope that the formula one design class succeeds in its campaign

Thank you to starboard for that wonderful proposal

WILDWINDSCA
5th November 2008, 12:41 AM
The longboards got owned.

My point is, I hope that the formula one design class succeeds in its campaign

Thank you to starboard for that wonderful proposal

There are alot of races where formula get "owned" ie: when winds are low, you just schlog with them, and while you may start the race, finishing it is another matter.

However that being said the FOD class is an great idea.

The reality is that at many venues in the world , it just doesnt blow, and you cant count on a blow happening . Its here that the longboard IMHO will rule , especially for a heavier guy.
Theres nothign like sitting on the beach in 5-8 knots watching the longboard do the course. It sucks.

Olympic is different then the weekend reagatta, they have a larger span of time to get wind.

Theres alot of talk that the FOD ...CAN get everyone planing in 6 knots. Being a heavier guy at 90 kgs and the closest i have gotten to the FOD design is an old formula 155 and a 9.0.
Suprisingly this setup does go in light airs but how light well, i dont know.
I will have to take therir word for the 6 knot limit .
I mean the bottom line is you just cant lie about this stuff

HOWEVER , it would be interesting to se the FOD gear INDEPENDANTLY reviewed , by some of the windsurfing "rags" ( magazines) ie : Boards Magazine, Windsurf magazone , french windsurf mag9s)( dont know the names) .


I think THAT would give the FOD idea better traction , with John Q public.

Whether that is necessary in an Olympic bid is another thing.



Jeff E aka "Shredulato" ( no afilliation)

Timme
5th November 2008, 03:35 AM
For people who have some problems with english and are dutch, here is the dutch version : http://www.speedsurfers.nl/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=18

Remi
5th November 2008, 12:50 PM
Hi Jeff,

Just remind you, just one event was cancel since 2001 for lack of wind. There is always enough wind in one week to valid an event. But yes we will do (less race in certain aera) like the RSX do under 6 knots. And I think it's a really great for the sport than to watch rowing sport. With the FOD the pumping will be limited by far.
Media = Sponsors and media are more interest by Formula than RSX because is more spectacular and more close to the real windsurf for the audience.

And since this date Formula progress a lot in light winds and prove with the FOD this year with Allison and 10 racers at the last Worlds that it's working.

So FOD is ready to ISAF & media desire

All the best

Unregistered
5th November 2008, 05:44 PM
Was Alison racing the full FOD gear, or FOD with a different fin and sail?

Were the FW events that you mentioned sailed in Olympic sailing venues like Kiel, or in windier places?

What media have confirmed that they are more interested in FOD than RSX? Which networks? Who was it who said that they are more interested? What jobs do those people do? When they were told about the change to FOD, what were they told?

It would be great if they were more interested. If they are, surely you'll tell us who you asked and what they said.

If you won't say what members of the media said FOD is better, why not?

Remi
5th November 2008, 09:42 PM
Dear All,
I could not let this one slip by without comment. Like every class before, the RSX class wants to stay olympic. Change is inevitable, normal, and no class has indefinite rights to olympic status.
I am surprised about his lack of knowledge about Formula Windsurfing -'oh there's less than 10 knots of wind today so we won't race'. Where did that come from ? Formula racers can race, do race, have raced, in 6/7 knots; with minimum of 7 knots required at the start. That is a fact.
'So ISAF required a board that would sail on three knots of wind". No they did not. The parameters for boards in olympics are specified in - ISAF RACE MANAGEMENT POLICIES FOR THE OLYMPIC SAILING COMPETITION AND ISAF EVENTS: for example.....
# 2.4 Races should not be started in less then 4 knots of wind (6 knots for boards) established over the entire course area. This lower limit may actually be higher if there is strong current in the racing area.
# 2.5 Races should not be started in excess of 25 knots. Once a race has been started and winds exceed 25 knots the race should be allowed to continue unless there is a danger to life. For the Tornado and 49er classes these limits should be set around 5 knots less. For the Star class 25 knots is the upper limit, but the upper limit may be 2-5 knots less in heavy seas or with gusty winds. These limits may also vary depending upon sea conditions, current and rapid changes in velocity.
ISAF asked for equipment proposals - and the equipment must be raced in 6>25 Knots. FOD meets this requirement and the above parameters. It does so by "planing" - therefore meeting the main criteria for good TV, media, spectator and public interest. 'A lighter planing board would be welcomed' by more than just the athletes !
'The reality of Olympic windsurfing is it's in the Olympics as part of yacht racing'. No it is not! Sailing is in the olympics, and windsurfing is a major part of sailing.
Neil Pryde built a board-' which can be sailed upwind at three knots ...' That depends on how you define sailing. He is, however, correct when he says-'... we had to put a dagger board in it. That added a lot of weight...' Consequently the RSX needs a lot more wind than FOD to plane.
'What the ISAF is faced with is choosing between a class that exists .........versus a class that only exists on paper.' That was certainly the case when RSX deposed Mistral One Design. It is not the case now. Formula Windsurfing has existed for more than 10 years. It is the Formula Windsurfing Class putting forward a one design piece of equipment for the Olympic Sailing Regatta.
There is no ' organisational vacuum'.
'...rushing a high specificaton product to market is a major manufacturing challenge.' Not for Starboard, the biggest brand in the windsurfing board market. The Formula 162 (the FOD board) has evolved over 10 years and has been in production since september 2007, selling over 750 units.
'..with over 2000 participants all around the world..' If that figure is to be believed, then FOD will have 4,000!
There is a choice ..vote FOD for 2012.
Scuttlebutteurope: Issue #1658 - 5 November
Not Time to Change Olympic Windsurfer Says Pryde
At this weeks ISAF meeting amongst the agenda items is a proposal to switch windsurfing boards for the 2012 London Olympic Games from the existing Neil Pryde RS:X to a new Starboard built Formula board.
While a lighter planing board would be welcomed by many athletes, it seems there are a lot of factors to consider.
Neil Pryde explains 'The RS: X board was designed and built to parameters set by the International Sailing Federation. (ISAF). The reality of Olympic windsurfing is it's in the Olympics as part of yacht racing. It has to operate on a fixed time table with events taking place everyday, the television is organized, the press coverage. The Event organiser don't have the luxury of saying dayafter day 'oh there's less than 10 knots of wind today so we won't race. They have to race.
'So ISAF required a board that would sail on three knots of wind. Normally windsurfers don't even go on the water unless it's more than 10-12 knots, so the Olympic board is not like a windsurfer in the normal sense of the word.
'To build a board which can be sailed upwind at three knots we had to put a dagger board in it. That added a lot of weight because you have to have the whole structure to support the dagger board.
'Going forward, we all hope that Olympic regattas are not sailed in venues that requires races to be run in very light conditions again, but practical considerations come even before and after racing.'
'Put aside any argument about the pros and cons. This weeks ISAF meeting is less than four years to the next Olympics. I think this is where the ISAF needs to be clear in its thinking.
'Hypothetically, lets say at this meeting we have to make the decision between the 420 class, or the 470 class, that's a relatively easy. These classes exist and have class organisations and rules. So to switch from one class to another is fairly painless exercise because they both exist and are fully structured.
'What the ISAF is faced with is choosing between a class that exists with over 2000 participants all around the world that's organized world championships, world youth and has a class organisation with continues supply of products versus a class that only exists on paper. So there really is no choice.
'Not only is the organisational vacuum a problem but rushing a high specificaton product to market is a major manufacturing challenge. --

Bob Maxwell in Sail-world.com, www.sail-world.com

Ceri Williams

Unregistered
6th November 2008, 04:03 PM
Remi, about your earlier post

Was Alison racing the full FOD gear, or FOD with a different fin and sail?

If she wasn't using full FOD gear, why not?

Were the FW events that you mentioned sailed in Olympic sailing venues like Kiel, or in windier places?

What media have confirmed that they are more interested in FOD than RSX? Which networks? Who was it who said that they are more interested? What jobs do those people do? When they were told about the change to FOD, what were they told?

It would be great if they were more interested. If they are, surely you'll tell us who you asked and what they said.

If you won't say what members of the media said FOD is better, why not?

WILDWINDSCA
6th November 2008, 04:40 PM
good reply remi
change is inevitable and no one boat has a right to the Olympics, they cut , appoint classes many times.

Unregistered
6th November 2008, 05:24 PM
they haven't cut the fin or 470. these are slow craft.
what does that mean??
Dunno

ceri
6th November 2008, 05:53 PM
Hi ,
i thought it worthwhile to checkout the whole story:
http://www.sail-world.com/UK/Move-to-change-Olympic-windsurfer-for-2012/50460

"Going forward, we all hope that Olympic regattas are not sailed in venues that requires races to be run in very light conditions again,... "
Amen to that.
I think we can all agree on that sentiment?

"One of the problems from a practical point of view of wind surfing boards with no dagger boards is that steerage, leaving or coming into harbours is very difficult without a support boat."
Not necessarily. FW events have been held at such venues in the past eg Europeans, Cascais; Worlds, Fortaleza....
We have the intention of assisting individuals or small teams with coach/ boat support. FOD will not be "underfunded" !

"Lightweight racing boards are much cheaper to bring to market because they contain less carbon, but realistically they are have a racing lifespan of one season."
Not True, and there is statistical evidence to support 'not true'. Checkout the sailors 'Equipment' list published for the 2008 Europeans:
http://www.formulawindsurfing.org/event.php?id=143
The Polish sailor third in the 2008 worlds used a 3 year old starboard ! etc, etc ..

"Our original prototype was a lot lighter but the International Sailing Federation wanted a board that would have a physical lifespan of at least four years.."
Even if that statement was true, it still means a lot of equipment must be near the end of its useful life; reinvestment will occur even without change to FOD . However, FOD is cheaper- investment will go further ; it will become affordable to nations not yet in olympic windsurfing.

"The problem with so many countries that have invested so much money into equipment they are afraid of obsolescing a lot of this investment".
We can all empathise with that statement. Any changeover would require careful management - it was no different in 2005. MOD still raced on for 2 years; RSX is selected for ISAF Youth Worlds.

"The reason I’m saying this is not because we have a vested interest in the RS:X because we obviously do, but because we got burned very badly by the late project start changing from the IMCO class to the RS:X in the November post Athens Olympicsc meeting."
I think we are getting closer to the real motivation for (at least) 4 more years!

"Of course in the rush to do this you inevitably have a lot of quality problems, things don’t go as smoothly as you hoped."
Are they solved?

"So it’s unrealistic to be making a decision to change from an established class to something that’s only a concept so late in the day".
IT IS NOT A CONCEPT - FOD IS A REALITY.
vote FOD for 2012

Remi
9th November 2008, 06:23 AM
Hi Unregistered,

Just compare the coverage that you have in media between PWA and Formula Windsurfing against RSX, you will see immediatelly that is much more and also they are interest of course sponsor out from windsurf

And also some TV was complaining at the last JO concerning windsurf that didn't give spectacle and didn't interest public. MEDIA is the KEY in now.

All the best

Unregistered
9th November 2008, 04:37 PM
Thanks Remi.

RSX got some coverage in the daily papers here. World Cup and FW racing, not at all.

Do you have a media service who tells you whether FW, RSX, or WC gets more media? It would be good to know. Or are you just talking about an opinion?

What is "JO"? Olympics?

What media were complaining? TV? Which company? Press? What paper? Who did they complain to? ISAF? IOC?

If you make claims in public, asking the world's surfers for their feelings, shouldn't you give proof of your claims?

Oh, and was Alison using all FOD gear? If not, why not?

If we are being asked to applaud a new board based on these claims, shouldn't we be told what you are basing them on? We don't want it to be like RSX, who said they could built a lite board and we ended up with a heavy one.

Finally, it's great that FW has only missed one race because of no wind. How many of the FW regattas were sailed at the same time and place as the Olympic regattas in boats and RSX?

Remi
9th November 2008, 08:02 PM
Hi Unregistered,

Is not my opinion, just have a look on all the windsurf mag arround the world!!! Olympic will have more coverage if the sport is more conventional and close to the market. Take care of the media will be at the end good for the Olympic racers who need more coverage to have sponsors.

TV said that is the most expensive sport to folow for a poor spectacle, so need to be more attractive for the general public

Allison do the World with FW gear because she would like to win the World in Formula Windsurfing. The 3 sails in this class perfrom better but in a narow wind range compare to the FOD one who have a hudge wind range.

All this event have always more 6 knots in a week, so never mind

All the best

Unregistered
10th November 2008, 01:56 AM
what is happenning in madrid?

Is the windsurfing meeting over?

it is 9:00pm on the 9th as I write this in madrid. rsx and fod was on the agenda for that 9th nov meeting.

I think the final desicions is on the 11th

Unregistered
10th November 2008, 02:02 AM
It looks like the reccomadation is for the rsx. I just read the news on sailing.org

Unregistered
10th November 2008, 05:58 PM
any comments?

Unregistered
10th November 2008, 06:23 PM
its over....

ceri
10th November 2008, 07:02 PM
the final decision rests with council on friday -we are still lobbying

Unregistered
10th November 2008, 08:47 PM
Congradulations RSX....looks like we get to watch your boring ass's pump around the race course for the next 4 years

Polis
10th November 2008, 10:57 PM
FOD doesn't get enough voices in the meeting

RSX has the right people and support to pull thru even though the board is as good as a coffin....

it's a shame if RSX is really back for another 4 yrs, endless funds will be wasted buying sub-par RSX equipment.

Unregistered
11th November 2008, 04:45 PM
http://www.sailing.org/26085.htm

Unregistered
11th November 2008, 08:00 PM
that sucks

Unregistered
11th November 2008, 10:10 PM
We still have our Formula class.What reely maters is that we enjoy it and go to the water and plane almost 360 days per year!Aloha

Unregistered
12th November 2008, 07:33 PM
Both the Womens and Equipment committee also voted in favour of the RS:X class.
http://www.sailing.org/news/26100.php

The Events committee is on the agenda for today, after that only the Executive committee will have the power to make a change. But it doesn't look too promissing for FWOD.

steveC
13th November 2008, 12:24 AM
RS-X, what kind of real world choice is that? Looks like Olympic windsurfing is again a big loser. By chosing a board that no normal windsurfer would touch with a ten foot pole, one wonders why Olympic windsurfing should exist at all. Without a doubt, a super big disappointment.

Unregistered
13th November 2008, 12:46 AM
Hhmmm like where does one even buy these RSX boards??

Unregistered
13th November 2008, 12:49 AM
a much better real world choice than a non existent class such as FOD?

If you look at participation numbers of formula racing you can clearly see that the majority of normal windsurfers wont touch it with a ten foot pole.

Had FOD been chosen one would have wondered why olympic windsurfing should exist at all?

Unregistered
13th November 2008, 02:32 AM
Anyway,
windsurfer representants, National Associations and all that have the obligation to represent what windsurfers in each country want.

If you make a poll and ask windsurfers if they want to see FOD or RSX in Olympics, I bet you all that Formula will win by far. The actual problem is that some "directors" in this associations think they are the gods of the sport and have to say what are the future bes ways the sport must follow not taking the opinion of the people that they represent that are the windsurfers.

I will wait, I want and I feel FOD should, must and will win this decition as its what windsurfers want. If not, why dont we take out of the sport all that people that do not represent windsurfers? sounds logical? who chooses them? or they are auto elected by their friends?

I suggest to wait, and be sure that Formula will win!
best regards,
Ricardo Guglielmino

Unregistered
13th November 2008, 02:46 PM
I am not to fussed either way
but
if I was voting I would vote for RSX
because
I and everyone else doesn't believe the aluminium boom story and the light wind performance.

Unregistered
14th November 2008, 01:31 AM
Hello Unregistered,

about the aluminum boom I use them since 2002 racing as i race in Formula Experience. Personally I can give you an opinion.

1- the booms in 2002 were weak but they started getting better. Chinook launched in 2007 a great boom that works fine, and Nautix have a super Jumbo boom called Formula Experience boom. ITs great, stiff and durable. And costs 1/3 to 1/4 a Carbon boom. My experience with Carbon booms is good and if people is racing in 25 knots with aluminum booms extented for 11.0 sails, I think that is the best way to tell you that you have to understand that it is like that. i can say you its like that and sign this with my name.

2- about light wind performance...have you tried an F162 board with a Severne Overdrive 11.0 2008 sail complete Formula Experience kit? well, try it and you will find this soft sail with this light and modern board works perfect in very very light wind.


And yes, I have tested the hybrid boards, RSX, Hybrid Formula and all that boards and their light wind performance is "boring", "frustrating" and finally wont promote sport. And their hi wind performance is "slow", "frustrating" and "survival". I think this do not motivate a person to race and thats why RSX is not a representative class of the sport actually.

In my country we have this RsX board, no one wants to use it, dont even go to the international events "full paid" as its boring.
One of our top sailors was frustrated to have the compromise to race on it in the Panamericans.

Lets be honest, RSX exists as there is money of the Olymppic comittee and of NP. If not, class dissappears. Once FOD is selected, RSX will dissappear in 1-2 years.
Do you think Formula needed an olympic status to be here now and have competitions in ALL countries of the world? NO, they dont need. THen, imagine if you have it in OLympics, then this class will be very popular...and let me explain that POPULAR doesnt mean 2000 RSX boards sold in 4 years, that is POOR penetration in the market. Would be good to inform all windsurfers that RSX just have this in 4 years and was lot less than what we all expected.

I know there is people as Rory Ramsen and others in the RSX commite that think different than me and I have sent them emails asking to flow with most windsurfers and dont just go for their personal view of the sport. Hope they act in the right way in the votation.

VOTE FOR MOST WINDSURFERS (Formula)
DONT VOTE AGAINST MOST WINDSURFERS (RSX)

And please, be serious guys, you can post your real names here.

Best regards
Ricardo Guglielmino

ceri
14th November 2008, 01:55 AM
2,000 boards in 4 years - with an average of 3(maybe4 ) boards per person !
I think the participation in RSX will decrease in next 4 years. In UK only one third of those starting in 2006 were still racing in 2008.
OK - our mna pushes young techno racers into RSX youth to build up the fleet; most will last no more than 2 years. This is a great disservice to them and to our sport.

Jean-Marc
14th November 2008, 03:45 AM
Now that FOD has been unfortunately killed, could you please bring back the Apollo for ultra light wind planing ? Too bad 2 have been scraped in this process already...

Cheers !

JM

Unregistered
14th November 2008, 03:45 AM
Hi Ricardo,

You should try the FOD boom as well. I have one in my Overdrive 11.0 and the boom is really stiff.

We're pushing the FE class here too and the good performance of the Overdrive + Blue Line rig isn't a surprise for us. But the aluminum FOD boom is the greatest surprise of the year!

See you in Ancon,
Marcello Morrone

Remi
14th November 2008, 07:52 AM
Hi All,

Ok we learn a lot from all this system and will come back for 2016 Olympic. RSX will continue for 4 years and probably decrease again with all this problems (Expensive, Durability, Shape tolerance, Pumping etc). This is definitelly not help the image of the windsurfing sport. But it's like this and have to accept it for the next 4 years.

For the boom, the FOD one is way stiffer compare to all alloy boom in the market, It's really more close to carbon boom at 1/4 the price and also verry important also way durable compare to carbon one. You have the Severne Alu Race (http://www.severnesails.com/?v=0) who arrive in the market (who is comming from the same technologie as the FOD one) in different size from 160 to 270, people will understand how much the step is big between the actual alloy boom and this one.

We will continue to promot that racers like Formula Windsurfing and Experience around the World. And next event will be the Formula Festival in Peru.

All the best and much more

249
14th November 2008, 02:28 PM
Anyway,
windsurfer representants, National Associations and all that have the obligation to represent what windsurfers in each country want.

If you make a poll and ask windsurfers if they want to see FOD or RSX in Olympics, I bet you all that Formula will win by far. The actual problem is that some "directors" in this associations think they are the gods of the sport and have to say what are the future bes ways the sport must follow not taking the opinion of the people that they represent that are the windsurfers.

I will wait, I want and I feel FOD should, must and will win this decition as its what windsurfers want. If not, why dont we take out of the sport all that people that do not represent windsurfers? sounds logical? who chooses them? or they are auto elected by their friends?

I suggest to wait, and be sure that Formula will win!
best regards,
Ricardo Guglielmino

It may be a great idea allow all active racing windsurfers to have a say in the selection of the Olympic board.

Perhaps you could just allow everyone who has sailed a national championship or districts or national ranking event to register their vote with their national authority.

The vote may not be binding on the IWA and other associations, who generally (or always) act for what they think is best for the sport and actually do sometimes have a better chance to talk to the top sailors and race organisers than most other racers, but it could at least act as a measure of how popular any particular type of board would be.

Sometimes the typical sailor on the beach may not know the conditions the Olympic board has to be sailed in. If they didn't allow for the fact that windsurfing (like other small sports or disciplines) doesn't get to choose where it will race in the Games, maybe they'd choose slalom or waves.

Unregistered
14th November 2008, 09:39 PM
Is that confirmed RSX continues?
if this is confirmed...what a sad day for windsurifng

ceri
15th November 2008, 12:26 AM
yes - RSX confirmed. In fact they voted on eight events in one vote . A good way to avoid seeing the level of opposition to RSX !
Olympic windsurfing is the loser - i truly believe that. Time to refocus on the sport.

steveC
15th November 2008, 01:28 AM
It beats me why the ISAF would continue to promote such a dog for Olympic windsurfing. Honestly, it's dumbfounding. One wonders if NP's money and influence has in some way bent the decision process. The decision to continue to support RS-X just doesn't seem right.

There is little doubt in my mind that the sport of windsurfing needs to get out from under the thumb of the yachting folks to have a real future.

Unregistered
15th November 2008, 02:23 AM
Please, make FOD comes true, I think a lot of sailors would like to race then.

Unregistered
15th November 2008, 02:39 AM
There is little doubt in my mind that the sport of windsurfing needs to get out from under the thumb of the yachting folks to have a real future.

whos thumb will it end up under then?

no other organisation has proven itself to be any better, far from it, racing has been declining for a long time and it hasnt been controlled by the yachties.

steveC
15th November 2008, 07:30 AM
The real question is whether windsurfing should be controlled by the established yachting folks, or by windsurfing folks. The decision to go with the RS-X only brings the problem more to the forefront. Is windsurfing more like boat racing or something different? Now, I'm thinking that the hand is being played by the boat racing folks and their concept scene and overall goals. Do we need to follow the yachting scene? That's not windsurfing to me.

Unregistered
15th November 2008, 08:37 PM
The real question is whether windsurfing should be controlled by the established yachting folks, or by windsurfing folks. The decision to go with the RS-X only brings the problem more to the forefront. Is windsurfing more like boat racing or something different? Now, I'm thinking that the hand is being played by the boat racing folks and their concept scene and overall goals. Do we need to follow the yachting scene? That's not windsurfing to me.

what are you talking about?
in the olympics windsurfing comes under sailing, what else would it come under? athletics?

Outside of the olympics the windsurf racing scene is controlled by various windsurf organisations and some windsurfing committee members ( operative word?), god only knows if some of the more vocal ones even windsurf? but they are nothing to do with the yachties and they have been in charge, is windsurf racing under their leadership healthy?

If FOD is so wonderful then there will be a class and it will grow, but, and this is one of the stones that have been thrown at RSX by vocal FOD supporters, without the olympic selection it wont even exist, hardly the sort of class that could be selected as an olympic board without, at the very least, a selection trials.

Unregistered
15th November 2008, 08:49 PM
Starboard has great Raceboard products, like Phantom race 380 or 320. Why didn't you propose with these???
It was obvious, that ISAF prefers raceboard racing over formula or even slalom racing.

steveC
16th November 2008, 01:53 AM
I guess the question can be asked, does Olympic windsurfing have to be focused on just racing? By remaining strictly linked to the yacht folks and their scene, I seriously doubt that any other windsurfing disciplines will have a chance in hell.

It must be remembered that racing and those that directly participate in it are actually very much in the minority when you look at windsurfing as a sport, so it's no surprise to me that the impact and health of racing is on the light side, or possibly questionable. Yet, if racing was to be one of the Olympic events, I think many windsurfers in general would prefer to have racing in a planing mode. Also, the thought that FOD doesn't really exist is a bit contrived. As many of us know, FOD is really a formula type kit just like FE is, and FOD racing would follow racing concepts and formats virtually the same as formula racing. As opposed to formula and the like, RS-X was literally pulled out of thin air just 4 years ago. More importantly, if RS-X was great product, I don't think we would be having this conversation.

steveC
16th November 2008, 02:05 AM
One more thing, if racing remains the same as its been for so long (a focus on non-planing performance in literally no wind), I would prefer that the Raceboard be used instead of the RS-X. I don't think I'm alone in that thought either.

Unregistered
16th November 2008, 02:15 AM
That doesnt work steve, it is a badly thought through argument based on bias and prejudice and it bends the truth to suit your view.

You are saying that FOD is more in tune with the type of windsurfing "most people" do than RSX.

How so?
most people do not use boards with 70cm fins( or even 50cm fins), most people do not use sails of 11m( around here most peoples largest size is nearly half that) and most people do not use boards 1m wide.
In fact the only thing that FOD has in common with "most" windsurfers is the fact that its a planing board. The RSX can plane to, so as far as your argument goes the rsx is as valid as the fod.
Then we move onto other forms of windsurfing being in the olympics, slalom, that would be cool, but then actually, since we are using it as an argument, how many windsurfers go slalom racing? um that will be a single figure percentage then, at best? ok so hat doesnt refelct what most windsurfers do either-

oh ok, well lets have a freestyle class then? well no, out of the windsurf population hardly anyone does that either, oh dear, ok wave sailing? nope, that aint gonna happen

What do most people do? they freesail so lets have a freesailing olympic class, on boards that most people use ( freeride, 6-7m sails, swept back fin) at the end of the day thats where that argument gets you.

In reality you havnt thought this through very well, and it is clear not many other people have either.

Unregistered
16th November 2008, 06:36 PM
Let’s see what happened on this meeting
1. ISAF is a sailing federation, its not related only to windsurfing.
2. ISAF is a very conservative federation. Just look, which other equipments were chosen on this meeting. (Only one new sailing class from 10!!!; Elliott 6m)
3. Windsurfing on the Olympic Games is only one section of the sailing events
4. Its does not matter, what windsurf population think, or desire, windsurf racing on the OG needs unique equipment.
5. ISAF prefers raceboarding, and light wind events as well. → Daggerboard is absolutely necessary for this!!!!
6. ISAF want to have a media friendly class. FW in this aspect doesn’t offer much more possibilities.

Why RS:X was chosen for 2008:
Because RS:X is a hybrid board. This unites early planning with the raceboard performance in light winds. According to my opinion in 2004 RS:X was the best solution. Of course at that time we didn’t know its disadvantages.

What Starboard has to do now?
Develop a better hybrid board than the RS:X and propose with that to 2016!!!!
What does better mean?
• Lighter (use new technologies!!!) (Possibly not more than 11-12 kg)
• More durable
• High class rig
If you could achieve these expectations, you could win in 2012!
And forget the Formula class. ISAF will never vote for that!

Unregistered
17th November 2008, 06:55 AM
Yeah forget the formula for olympics it just doesn't fit
any body looking at it can see its 2m by 1m with a long skinny fin. so therefore it has no displacing speed or any grip at slow speed from drifting to leeward. these craft also dramatically jump onto the plane and take off with a lot of power required not a gradual thing.
it doesn't matter if you windsurf or not yachties can see that.

the olympics is about the sailors skill and fittnes not equipment

formula is equipment driven

steveC
17th November 2008, 07:38 AM
Given that the FOD kit was proposed as a less expensive alternative to RS-X, the final conclusion reached in post 171 simply doesn't flush out.

Seemingly, a lot hinges on the daggerboard, but with the senior crowd making the bottomline decisions, that doesn't come as a real big surprise. A very conservative group, indeed.

Really, it's about vision, and a different future (and really much more relative to windsurfing today). However, if the paradigm can't be altered, that certainly identifies more about the foregone path that's been decided for the future.

Oh boy, isn't Olympic windsurfing super exciting and interesting?

steveC
17th November 2008, 07:48 AM
Oh yeah, and I almost forgot, where's the long line forming for normal folks to buy an RSX? I need to get an early start on windsurfing's dynamic future.

Unregistered
17th November 2008, 11:06 AM
It's very hard for people to swallow as people are afraid of the past meeting the future, but maybe the original Windsurfer Onedesign was and still could be the best option for the Olympics. I agree with the previous comment that Formula is about the gear and I also think Formula cuts out a whole flood of sailors to the racing challenge.

A few thoughts:

1. Choose RSX - empty peoples wallets for a one event extravagance

2. Choose Formula WD - empty peoples wallets for a one event extravagance,

3. Choose Windsurfer One Design - Cheap, established, versatile (one board many disciplines; freestyle, course, waves, etc) and of course sail in any conditions.

Now I expect there to be alot of criticism to this idea, those people probably feel threatened by the truth.

http://www.lbwindsurfing.com/windsurfer-one-design/what-is-the-windsurfer-one-design/

http://www.lbwindsurfing.com/windsurfer-one-design/

Unregistered
17th November 2008, 02:40 PM
Oh yeah, and I almost forgot, where's the long line forming for normal folks to buy an RSX? I need to get an early start on windsurfing's dynamic future.

i do not support rsx i think its a poor board and i thought it was a mistake to select it. I did foresee the problems with it at selection so its no great surprise.

However the above quote from steve c takes a side swipe at rsx that in the context of formula is ill deserved, Formula is not windsurfings "dynamic future", quite the reverse, it is already over as can be seen by the very few people taking it up. It is not a particularly popular class.

Steve c is right to look to the future with some vision, first decide what the class must do ( racing wind range, locations, sailor weights, sailor abilities etc) and then design the kit to suit. The MAJOR problem so far has been trying to make existing kit fit the specification rather than deliberately designing kit to fit the spec. The other major problem is that out of the existing equipment the ( very old) longboard is the clear leader in terms of performance across the needed characteristics, what does that say about the state of the industry? Imagine a cutting edge longboard design( not a recycled 20 year old design please) with a cutting edge rig.

Two Four Nine
17th November 2008, 04:59 PM
The Windsurfer One Design class doesn't want to be Olympic......we're growing quite nicely again as it is! :-)


Steve, all the apparent contempt for the "limited vision" of boat sailors is, with respect, merely showing that you don't know what they do.

The boat sailors have huge numbers of kids. They do things like round the world races, and day races in classic boats. They have incredibly advanced craft. They have boats that are higher-tech than any board, and boats that people build from home in wood.

They are - and this is a simple fact - vastly more diverse than windsurfing is. For example, some of their races last 15 minutes, others last 8 months. Some happen on 6 acre lakes, others go around the whole world. SOme boats are 7' long, some are 200' long. It is simply ridiculous to say that they have limited vision.

How do you know what vision they have? Have you ever seriously sailed a boat? How many of the world's hugely diverse boat sailors do you know? Why not stop slagging off and insulting people who you obviously know nothing about?

As far as progress goes - a classic example is that when the first Windsurfer came out, it was a couple of % slower around the normal course than the 11' Moth class dinghy. These days, the Moth class dinghy is a hydrofoiler built by amateurs and Formula 1 engineers, and it's faster than FW up to about 10 knots and not much slower after that. In other words, some boats have been developing as fast as boards. The difference is, they are not too narrow-minded as to reject older gear as well.

FW is fantastic, but anyone who says that windsurfing has been developing faster is simply arrogantly ignorant of the fantastic width and depth of the development that other forms of sailing have been doing. We have a lot to learn from them, and if we stopped being so arrogant we may become, once more, almost as popular a section of the sport.

Two Four Nine
17th November 2008, 05:09 PM
As soon as I hit send on that post, I realised it was over the top and I apologise for that.
But why do we have to keep on insulting those with other views here on this site and in this sport? It's a sport so riven with internal bickering that there's no wonder it's so small these days.

Why not respect the different choices of ALL our fellow sailors?

Aco
17th November 2008, 10:13 PM
But why do we have to keep on insulting those with other views here on this site and in this sport? It's a sport so riven with internal bickering that there's no wonder it's so small these days.

Why not respect the different choices of ALL our fellow sailors?
For me, this is one of the biggest misteries in windsurfing:

why do most "small gear lovers" have a so hopelessly, overhelmingly, unimmaginably tough time accepting that some windurfers (me included) love the big gear - Big Sails, Formulas and Longboards - sometimes even MORE than smaller gear?

Maybe it is so hard to digest all those days on the beach when someone else is planing full speed, but the solution is travelling to windier places or....buying bigger gear ;), not insulting fellow windsurfers.

By acting like this we only look immature to the rest of the world.
Just my opinion.

Best Wishes,
Aco

Unregistered
17th November 2008, 10:24 PM
The only thing that metters now is: What is going to happen to FOD?

Unregistered
18th November 2008, 02:46 AM
Maybe it is so hard to digest all those days on the beach when someone else is planing full speed, but the solution is travelling to windier places or....buying bigger gear ;), not insulting fellow windsurfers.

This forum is about Oympic windsurfing, not about "fun" windsurfing.
Olympic windsurfing is a really hard sport, but 'normal windsurfing' is a pleasure activities.
An Olympic ecquipment has to be suitable only for Olympic athletes, not for everyone!!!!!!!
Not all of the sailors around the world want to sail with Laser or with the 470 sailing boat, but these classess are the best for an olympic race!

Philip
18th November 2008, 04:33 AM
The start of the decline of long boards in racing was not FW anyway. It was when some talented professionals started to use slalom kit (when the wind was 'in' for sure) and win races. I can only comment on what is seen at my local lake and that is that people are either on short freeride or slalom kit; the larger iSonics and their ilk really fly in quite modest winds and upwards. This is a crowd pleaser for joe public. But I suppose this is a bridge too far for the Olympics.

Portugal
18th November 2008, 04:35 AM
Hello all,
I race in windsurfing and sailing boat for 25 years. I race in windsurfing Olimpic gear Lechner (Division II) it was great times, this board race between 3 knots to 35 or 40 knots. I race also in Mistral One Design and go to the water one time in RSX. For me in the old olimpic spirit the best olimpic board was by far the Lechner board, perfect for most of conditions.I think if continue this kind of commite and olimpic mentality why they don´t continue with lechner, with only a diferent sail, with modern materials.
I race in Laser also, and was 3 times in 2 place in portugal, and goes to european and world championship and the Laser boat was a complitly closed class, even so last to years they change a litle. All windsurfer guys in the olimpic commites and all of windsurfing guys in the world have to think what is windsurfing olimpic. Olimpic is a closed sport only for some guys, and windsurfing is a open sport for all kind of guys. Windsurfing as several disciplines Waves, Freestyle, Speed, Formula, Slalom, FOD and Olimpic board, and any one choose what they want to ride. Not every one have capabilities to race in the olipmpic, not only money matters, but also the suport, the phisic, the emotial part, time to training and a treinor. The only thing in my opinion in the olipimpic board RSX, is the weight and the shape for ligth wind, underplannig, the olimpic guys tell that the board have to race underplaning conditions, don´t compare lechner board in light conditions with this board, put one olimpic guy in the lechner board in other with RSX, in underpanning conditions and you will see the winner, is without a doubt the Lecnher board.

Best regards all
Continue windsurfing

Unregistered
18th November 2008, 05:16 AM
But wasn't the Lechner an unpopular choice because the Davidson won the world championship and most felt the better board ? I still prefer my old Div 2 to a Serenity because - whilst a little slower in displacement mode - it planes. (You wouldn't catch me on it over 15 knots though..) No ones going to race live with one on an RSX in light conditions, but that's not really the point. The point is that the RSX can look like a blast in strong condtions. Still the lightweight RSX pryde hAVE RESURECTED FOR 2013 might improve on the seriously weighty feel they've got. Those trials could be interesting. Hopefully Bic might have a lighter weight hybrid by then too. Formulas great but the problem is a 6 knot minimum at the startline requires a board capable of handling 3 knots in the inevitable lulls 20 mins later at the other end of the course.

Remi
18th November 2008, 06:11 AM
Hi All,

I try until now all the Olympic board from the Windglider to the rsx, the Lechner was a great board and sure the best Olympic one by far until now. We can not say the same thing with the rsx who is the worst board ever who try to combine the 2 best world (Non Planning and Planning). The result is heavy, poor result in non planing with a devastator physical pumping and poor result in planing condition and I don't talk about shape tolerance, price and durability.
They change the Olympic board from Imco to Rsx because they want something more attractive and modern to increase the participant who was going down with the Imco. The result for exemple in France come from minimum 400 Imco racers to 50 rsx racer. Does that means is more attractive and moderne?

Good luck to the Olympic racers for the next 4 years. And we will prepare with all we learn from this campaign a better support for them.

All the best

Unregistered
18th November 2008, 03:05 PM
last time i sailed my raceboard ( a cat) it was solid planing conditions and there was no real difference in planing speed between me on the cat with a 9.5 and the freeriders out on their shortboards. Sometimes i would blast past them and sometimes they would blast past me.

It is simply wrong to go on about planing boards and long boards as if they are something different.

Longboards will plane happily and fast and are easy capable of over 30 knots board speed with the right pilot.

Aco
19th November 2008, 01:54 AM
Maybe it is so hard to digest all those days on the beach when someone else is planing full speed, but the solution is travelling to windier places or....buying bigger gear ;), not insulting fellow windsurfers.

This forum is about Oympic windsurfing, not about "fun" windsurfing.
Olympic windsurfing is a really hard sport, but 'normal windsurfing' is a pleasure activities.
An Olympic ecquipment has to be suitable only for Olympic athletes, not for everyone!!!!!!!
Not all of the sailors around the world want to sail with Laser or with the 470 sailing boat, but these classess are the best for an olympic race!
???
I do not see the connection.

Best Wihes,
Aco

Unregistered
19th November 2008, 04:10 AM
Remi, doesn't sound like a vote in confidence for Cobra production - or is it just DB's that give them a problem :-)

#185 True, raceboards plane pretty fast - but only downwind, and that's well under half the time. Of course they don't stop dead in 3 knots either. The Curtis Lifter fin concept will get Formula round a course thru' lulls. Not pretty but it will get a result and that's what really counts for the big O.
OTH I do have a Lifter and whilst it's good as it does mean I can always 'get home' when cruising, really for my lightwind lesiure I'd prefer something I can rail. If I could find room for yet another board in the garage I get a Bic Hybrid for summer conditions.

Unregistered
19th November 2008, 04:24 AM
A nice history here http://www.windsurfing.org/olympics01.htm

the equipment used to be chosen one year before the games !

Unregistered
19th November 2008, 04:46 AM
windsurfing people have many boards - wave, slalom, race
you see guys at the beach when conditions change they rig a different sail grab another board. everything is specialized

olympics is not like that
the designs of the classes need to go upwind downwind in light and strong winds
look at the 49er - ok in light, very good in moderate (can beat 18foot skiff) difficult in strong, quite bad in 25knots plus and rough sea.

the rsx is a comprimise board it has to be.

starboard should have redesigned the rsx

if they had designed a faster lighter stronger hybrid it would have been a no brainer

Aco
19th November 2008, 12:39 PM
windsurfing people have many boards - wave, slalom, race
you see guys at the beach when conditions change they rig a different sail grab another board. everything is specialized

olympics is not like that
the designs of the classes need to go upwind downwind in light and strong winds
look at the 49er - ok in light, very good in moderate (can beat 18foot skiff) difficult in strong, quite bad in 25knots plus and rough sea.

the rsx is a comprimise board it has to be.
starboard should have redesigned the rsx

if they had designed a faster lighter stronger hybrid it would have been a no brainer
I agree with you, which is why I did not understand your quote to my post.

I have immense respect for Starboard and all the innovations they have made trough the years:
I own 5 of their boards (Serenity, Hybrid-Formula, Formula, Slalom) and love them all. I also owned and sailed the Ultra-Cat, IMCO and the Lechner until recently.

Having said that, I would like to emphasize that what the text below is just my humble opinion - I absolutely leave (and respect) the decision of the olympic experts.

So, I love my Formula more than any other of my boards, BUT i do not think that Formula is a suitable board for the Olympics for the simple reason that
"most (typical) locations around the world experience non-planing conditions most of the time"

In conclusion, my humble opinion about olympic windsurfing equipment is (from least to most appropriate):
===
(1) FORMULA
I believe a planing only board is not suitable because it does not cover the most common conditions.

(2) HYBRID
works in all conditions, but is slower around a race course than a Longboard in most conditions and not really fun sub-planing.

(3) RACEBOARD
a modern, lightweight planing Longboard (e.g. Phantom 380) is a very good compromise being relatively fast over a wide range of conditions and for me the best one-board solution.

(4) FORMULA + SERENITY
the combination of a Formula and a dedicated displacement board (Serenity with Dagger) would be fastest and most fun windsurfer in most conditions.
===

To keep the race under above point (4) ONE-DESIGN, the race committee would prescribe the board to be used the day (or half-day) on the basis of the forecast.

For option (3) the biggest drawback for me (with IMCO and Ultra-Cat experience) is having to use the dagger upwind in strong wind, which isn't as much fun as Formula/Hybrid beating on the Fin - BUT if only 1 board can be used I believe that the Raceboard is still the best solution.

Again, just my opininon.
Best Wishes,
Aco

Remi
19th November 2008, 01:49 PM
Hi UNregistered,

"Remi, doesn't sound like a vote in confidence for Cobra production - or is it just DB's that give them a problem :-)"

Sorry but Cobra production is the best one until now but you have to control it and is ok.

DB Explain in another way, I don't understand, thanks

All the best

Unregistered
19th November 2008, 02:01 PM
For option (3) the biggest drawback for me (with IMCO experience) is having to use the dagger upwind in strong wind, which isn't as much fun as Formula/Hybrid beating on the Fin - BUT if only 1 board can be used I believe that the Raceboard is the best solution.



so? reduce the chord of the daggerboard and redesign the board so that it can be drawn aft when its vertically down and can be pushed against formula style. There isnt a lot of leverage on the formula boards( often having to point toes as opposed to pressing heals) so the width isnt needed, so a moderate increase in board width around the back of the longboard might well work- best get on it starboard....

Unregistered
20th November 2008, 05:36 AM
49er's not good in strong wind.... ha ha Yep that day in China was more like a demolition derby than a race. didn't look like anybody was gonna finish. Didn't realise they could be an 18 in any conditions though.

One advantage of the Hybrid concept, seems to me, is that the DB (=Daggerboard) can be a high lift light wind high lift high drag special , since the fin alone handles stronger conditions. So no need for two DB like the Warp, with the wrong one always installed :-)

Remi
20th November 2008, 10:54 AM
Hi Unregistered,

DB = Dagggerboard, so it's not problem for us. We have so many boards with DB in our range.
Start
Rio
Super 12"6
Gemini
Phantom Race 320 & 380

The proposal have to come from a class and the Formula Windsurfing Class ask us to prepare something and we do it with pleasure.

All the best

Unregistered
20th November 2008, 05:21 PM
49er's not good in strong wind.... ha ha Yep that day in China was more like a demolition derby than a race. didn't look like anybody was gonna finish. Didn't realise they could be an 18 in any conditions though.


The guy who designed the 49er says the 18 is faster, but because the 18 crews are good amateurs the pros on the 49ers can get close in some conditions.

Re hybrids - is it worth hauling around a high lift/high drag fin in light winds and downwind, as well as a CB for light winds? Maybe a low drag fin and high drag CB is not a bad combo/

Unregistered
21st November 2008, 04:00 AM
Exactly, slim fin, fat DB. (yes Cobra do build DB's but trying to get to race weight seems fraught what with the porky RSX and now the Phantom recall).

It's funny how the Olympians are the real 'pros' in the sense of full timers. No need to chase sponsors either.

I've sailed close to an 18 and the whistle from the huge SPI was uncannily like that from a glider wing. Quite an angle downwind too.

Unregistered
21st November 2008, 04:31 PM
I would improve the rsx by improving the formula style sailing by

giving it a bigger fin and I would change the stern to be wider maybe copy the isonic stern.
Also the first couple of mast track holes aren't used so delete them

when sailing with the dagger board down I would put more volume in the bow and actually reduce the centreboards size. the thing sinks a bit for the men in the bow.

I dont know how these changes would affect the girls

k.lauman
23rd November 2008, 09:56 AM
In canada we were gifted with great coverage of the Xiangdao ( or whatever) sailing antics. We actually got a tornado team into the top 4. The tornado race was the best live broadcast race i've ever seen. No national bias here, the point is, here is a true all wind, all water state machine and it's being dumped from the games. While the 49ers were catching their trap bars on the mad chop, the tornado class exuded speed, teamwork and exitement. Like the tornado it's the craft that has the best average speed that will generate the most interest. Although a raceboard might post the best vmg in light winds, it won't look exiting to a tv audience, as the RSX finals proved. Formula, when it planes, has a very consistent speed upwind and down, it's not on and off the plane like a raceboard. Tacking downwind is exiting to watch, dead downwind sled riding isn't. The only caveat is the fact that a formula race is much more spread out than a daggerboard race due to "point lower, sail faster" upwind planing method, and this makes it harder to frame the race in a single helicopter shot. The most exiting, yet lowest participation number class was cut, so it's easy to see that the IOC's bias is towards the number of athletes involved vs marketablity/ exitment (bizarrely). Windsurfing should be very cautious, an olympic berth is a privilege, but as of now it's a privilege without benefits as the rsx finals were deterministic, slow and nigh unwatchable.
There is an undeniable opinion afoot that rsx is a bit of placeholder or intermediate step towards the inevitable; a full planing board. This opinion trickles down into all levels of windsurf course racing, the assumption that forumula represents the athleticism, professionalism and dedication to be aspired to and that the longboard classes are for those waiting in the wings, looking for an less demanding ride and a board that is ready to go when they are, instead of a board that is waiting for the right wind conditions. Another suggestion: why not a two board discipline? A hybrid board plus a pure planer. They'll be ready regardless of the wind conditions. It's about sailing a board, not sailing a particular class of board, after all. Compared to all the dinghies, a sailboard is always more economical, maybe even two.

Unregistered
25th November 2008, 05:05 PM
"Like the tornado it's the craft that has the best average speed that will generate the most interest."

That's possible, but it's certainly not proven. For all the criticism that ISAF have copped (and to fend of accusations of bias, I'd much rather a FOD than the RSX) has anyone at any time in this debate EVER provided a quote from a member of the mass media, saying what they want to see? Having spent over a decade in the print media, it seems pretty obvious that art directors - who are those who really decide what pics go in - would rather see pretty colours and clear pics than what we would call "exciting" shots.

If the Tornado (again, to fend off accusation of bias, I LOVE sailing Tornadoes) generates the most interest, then it hasn't done much for cat sailing - the numbers have dropped sharply according to most figures in the English-speaking world.

"The most exiting, yet lowest participation number class was cut, so it's easy to see that the IOC's bias is towards the number of athletes involved vs marketablity/ exitment (bizarrely)."

Why was it a bizarre choice? Have you read the IOC OPC reports?

If the most exciting class has the lowest participation numbers (and they do have pretty small numbers, not just in the Games, but outside the Games as well in most major sailing countries) then obviously being the most exciting class doesn't do much for the number of people who actually get off their couches and onto the water.

Of course, that's not news since windsurfing hasn't been as big since it got obsessed with spectacular images rather than real-world attractiveness, and the 18 Foot Skiffs got high TV ratings and then almost died as a class - just like the ORMA 60s. Time and time and time and time again, we have seen that getting more TV does nothing to make a type of sailing more popular. It may not seem logical, but it's been a fact year after year.

Interestingly, a very vocal cat supporter who sells sailing holidays said that as soon as Ben Ainslie won the Finn gold medal (and IMHO the Finn should DEFINITELY go to make way for the cat) he got a big surge of bookings for sailing holidays. The Finn is ancient, slow, heavy, etc, but according to this cat fan it still excited people.

Seahorse magazine this month (IIRC) noted just what the IOC OPC noted - that what REALLY gets pics is not fast boats, but winning athletes.

Unregistered
25th November 2008, 08:15 PM
"a very vocal cat supporter who sells sailing holidays said that as soon as Ben Ainslie won the Finn gold medal (and IMHO the Finn should DEFINITELY go to make way for the cat) he got a big surge of bookings "

and you believed him? i know the guy and that was marketing speak for "got loads of unbooked spaces please come on a holiday with us"

but agree with the rest of your post. The excitement for tv coverage stuff is just sheer bullshit

ceri
26th November 2008, 05:03 PM
without the TV income - no games

Unregistered
27th November 2008, 03:58 AM
without the wind- no planning and no fun!

Unregistered
27th November 2008, 04:07 AM
without the wind- no planning and no fun!

Olympic windsurfing is not about fun...

Unregistered
27th November 2008, 02:12 PM
without the TV income - no games

where this is probably a true statement it is not the whole story.
Not all of the sports in the games have the same media appeal, nor will they ever have.

Archery?
Badmington?
fencing?
Handball?

all riveting TV im sure.........um ok not!

ceri
27th November 2008, 04:15 PM
and all at risk -and could be replaced

Unregistered
27th November 2008, 05:14 PM
From the IOC Olympic Programme Commission report.

Athens 04

Most prime time viewer hours; 1st basketball, 2nd volleyball (not beach volleyball), 3 athletics, 4 - table tennis; 5- artistic gymnastics 6 - shooting; 7 - swimming 8- diving.

Prime time viewer hours per day of competition; 1 basketball, 2 athletics, 3 table tennis, 4- Artistic gymnastics; 5 - shooting; 6- Swimming; 7-

So sailing is well down, but the fact is that conventional sports that are not really spectacular top the ratings. Hell, table tennis out-rates the luge and mountain biking by miles, as do people churning up and down a pool at about 5 knots. People standing there and pointing bang sticks rates its socks off.

The super-fast sports like bobsleigh, skeleton and luge are the three lowest-rating winter Olympic sports, although in prime time they outrate X-C skiiing.

Canoe slalom out-rated sailing, and IIRC canoe slalom (NOT sailing) was going to be dropped until the flat-water canoe guys (who attract 1/7 the prime time viewers per day) did some horse dealing.

Sailing scored well in new media; only 6 sports of the 34 Olympic sports had more website hits during the previous year. Only 7 sports had more hits during the world titles.
Sailing was in the top 1/3 of Olympic sports in terms of media accreditation at the worlds.

In a world where table-tennis out-rates mountain biking by about 12 to 1 (prime time viewer hours per day of competition), it seems that being spectacular is not what really counts.

ceri
27th November 2008, 06:10 PM
where is the funding coming from for countries to host the olympic games ?

Unregistered
28th November 2008, 02:31 AM
The IOC site says that 50% of the Olympic revenue comes from broadcasting fees - and broadcasters pay the fees to get viewers.

The point is that the high-rating sports that seem to be the foundation of the whole pyramid aren't spectacular. The sports that generate the greatest number of prime-time viewers, according to the IOC's OPC, are basketball, volleyball, athletics, table tennis, gymnastics, shooting, swimming etc.

None of them are really spectacular - but they rated better than the spectacular sports. So if we are trying to stay in the games by becoming a spectacle, we could (on the facts) be going the wrong way.

When something as spectacular as ski jumping or luge gets fewer watchers than X-C skiing, when people lying down (prone shooting) get more watchers than whitewater kayaks or Tornadoes or 49ers, it seems that there's a lot more to getting viewers than simply being spectacular.

Unregistered
28th November 2008, 04:06 PM
The IOC site says that 50% of the Olympic revenue comes from broadcasting fees - and broadcasters pay the fees to get viewers.

The point is that the high-rating sports that seem to be the foundation of the whole pyramid aren't spectacular. The sports that generate the greatest number of prime-time viewers, according to the IOC's OPC, are basketball, volleyball, athletics, table tennis, gymnastics, shooting, swimming etc.

None of them are really spectacular - but they rated better than the spectacular sports. So if we are trying to stay in the games by becoming a spectacle, we could (on the facts) be going the wrong way.

When something as spectacular as ski jumping or luge gets fewer watchers than X-C skiing, when people lying down (prone shooting) get more watchers than whitewater kayaks or Tornadoes or 49ers, it seems that there's a lot more to getting viewers than simply being spectacular.

well said.

Furthermore is FOD likely to be any more captivating or interesting to watch than RSXto the layman?

Unregistered
28th November 2008, 08:00 PM
Are we shaping a class to fit the olympic perimeters or are we shaping a class for whats best for the sailors?
Too many times, I have seen the racing suffering because it was run too close to shore to try and appease the sponsors. Last years, FW worlds in Fortaleza, for example, as well as this years' Europeans had the finish line set so close to shore that 99.9% of the race was full on planning till the last 100m where sailors fell into the wind shadow of the shore and as a results, the finishes were completely random- irregardless of how you fought the whole race.
.

Unregistered
14th December 2008, 03:05 PM
Since RS-X is chosen for 2012 Olympics, will Starboard be producing the FOD board and rig for sale? If it is reasonably priced I'll be interested to get one and I'm sure some of my ex-FW buddies would be interested too.

Unregistered
15th December 2008, 12:19 AM
They don't show much interest in produce and promote FOD since ISAF choses RS-X for the OG. Shame...

ceri
15th December 2008, 02:59 PM
No So... the project will go on ; we have time to plan for 2016! Meantime the current equipment will be eligible to race in FW regattas next year ; and we will give prizes for FOD division.
Much will depend upon how the competitors react - how many take up FOD as opposed to other options. The equipment exists and is available ; and would be class legal with or without "branding". The original concept was for olympic equipment - with a captive market ! Many others have expressed a desire to race FOD - so we will offer it as a division of FW next year - why not ? !

Unregistered
15th December 2008, 10:01 PM
Ceri, are you saying that Starboard is selling the complete FOD package? Board, sail, mast, boom, extension and fin?

Unregistered
17th December 2008, 08:36 PM
yeah! bring it on! how about having an online shop so that we can buy direct from starboard? (this way, starboard can keep the price down). FOD as a class in FW, that is interesting.....

Unregistered
17th December 2008, 08:42 PM
i just noticed something in this forum. going by the number of replies and views of this thread, there is certainly a lot of interested parties out there. this should give *board the assurance that FOD can succeed.

Unregistered
17th December 2008, 11:15 PM
Never mind FOD, go for FE, nobody wants to pay US$ 1,800.00 for a fin anymore, and FE is almost one design these days, only Starboard produce FE boards, the 160 tuffskin, and almost everybody is using Severne Overdrives to race in FE, so we already have a one design formula. And is cheapper than the proposed FOD too.

Unregistered
17th December 2008, 11:48 PM
I think formula sailors are willing to pay what ever it takes for a fin that will work.
Its evident, as the Kashys still have a 2 year waiting time!
But for those that dont, there are alternatives like the IFJU, F4 Crad, Hurricane, Debocheit, VMG, Finworks and others that work almost or as good. It depends on the sailor of course.
To put it another way-
If you have the choice the race formula 1 or nascar- what do you choose!
Most prefer formula 1 but of course, there's a price for quality.
If you want to play, you have to pay.
Its up to you! But dont complain because you dont like the open rules of formula when there's an alternative choices available like the FE, FOD or RSX one design class to race in.

Unregistered
18th December 2008, 03:45 AM
I like the open rules, I just don't like the price of some gear that is keeping many sailors away.

carlosgp5
18th December 2008, 04:39 PM
Ceri, are you saying that Starboard is selling the complete FOD package? Board, sail, mast, boom, extension and fin?

I´m just wondering the same thing. Even with the fail of the proposal, are they still selling the whole package?

Unregistered
20th December 2008, 05:12 AM
"If you have the choice the race formula 1 or nascar- what do you choose!
Most prefer formula 1 but of course, there's a price for quality."

The price is that, like Formula 1, you may end up with a very small and shrinking number of competitors!

Fact is, most people don't choose Formula 1 stuff. Most people choose what is cheap enough for them to afford after they have paid for the other things in life. And if restrictions are so bad, why is Formula restricted to just production boards?

Unregistered
20th December 2008, 07:24 AM
I think we know where FW will go, remember the old course-race? Same way...

Unregistered
21st December 2008, 01:32 AM
I think we know where FW will go, remember the old course-race? Same way...

if thats the case...what will be replacing formula?
formula came about because of the unlimited course race equipment war.
currently there is nothing in line to replace it.
pwa 10 knot slalom?- they just changed the rules to 6-3 slalom making it even more equipment intensive
rsx?- cant attract anybody besides olympic sailors
fod- can even get off the ground!!

Unregistered
21st December 2008, 03:49 AM
So why not have a full range of classes, and make sure that those classes stop being so negative towards each other?

Some people don't want too many restrictions on the course racing gear - so FW is perfect for them.

Some people want to sail FW style but without any chance of being beaten by big spenders - so FOD is perfect for them.

Some people want to be able to sail in all conditions and want to be able to select the gear that suits their weight - Raceboard is perfect for them.

Some people want to sail in all conditions on a very simple board without any chance of being beaten by big spenders - Kona is perfect for them.

Lots of sailors want different things, why not support that and offer a range of classes, from slalom to OD longboards, that support each other rather than attack each other.

ceri
21st December 2008, 02:33 PM
the classes do support one another - part of the reason they joined IWA . Only pity is, PWA declined to be part of a "co-operative"