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Albert Chan
25th September 2008, 08:24 PM
Why do NP racing sail need SO MUCH downhaul compare to other sail brand . Do they
ever think it will break the mast so easy ? Crazy !

Albert .

Polis
25th September 2008, 09:56 PM
if NP doesn't do this, pretty soon, they will sell less masts than other brands....

nonopr
25th September 2008, 11:09 PM
Why do NP racing sail need SO MUCH downhaul compare to other sail brand . Do they
ever think it will break the mast so easy ? Crazy !

Albert .

I guess you broke your mast???:eek:

Philip
26th September 2008, 04:51 AM
Yep certainly need a downhaul tool if only to fine tune the right amount of downhaul - this kind of sail deserves good rigging. The NP website has good video of how to get the most out of the RS series. When rigged right goes like a straight arrow. Depending on your application use the X6 mast.

Unregistered
26th September 2008, 11:29 AM
I wouldn t buy a sail on how much downhaul it needs, just get a good DH tool:)

anyway try Maui Sails

they are smoother easier rigging, very large rigging range

likely the fastest out there

while Pryde could be the fastest of those with big $$$ marketing. Still fantastic sails also:)

gets down to sailor, rigging and sailing skills, if good board and aftermarket fin are givens

geo
26th September 2008, 12:50 PM
Can confirm about Maui Sails. Very easy rigging, will perform nicely whatever the DH tension applied (reasonably). Of course, fine tuning makes things even better. Try them.
Only, be cautious: they work in a different way, and just a brief sailing test may result in one looking for that NP/North "hard" feeling that simply can not be there no matter how one tries, and ultimately in overdownhauling oversheeting and killing the sail's performances. One hint: in my experience, suggested DH settings are to be interpreted as high wind settings and measure must be taken between the mast bottom inside the sleeve and the front lower "corner" of the sail's pulley, that's the way Barry checks it. In practice, since the sail has a large tack flap, add 4 cms. to the suggested extension setting and downhaul until you have 3 to 5 cms. between the pulleys (this of course depends on the extension one uses). Take your time, be aware the sails will not pull sideways that much (low back hand in TR-3s, even lower in TR-4s) but still will pull a lot in the RIGHT direction (front!). Also be sure to rig them on right masts (Maui Sails SRS 100%, or older Gaastras up to '06). You will discover a new sailing experience, have plenty speed (low back hand may even lead to use a smaller/softer fin) and understand that "mainstream" definitely is not the only way to go.

Unregistered
26th September 2008, 04:58 PM
Hi Geo,

I read your comment about the hard feeeling about NP/North. I sailed Nitros 2 and 3 some years ago (Barry's designs), and the sails felt so light in my hands, were the best sails I've had so far, and I'd like to know if the TR's have the same feeling. I'm curious about the Maui's TRs because nobody uses them here and I'm thinking about to buy some Maui TRs.
Thanks, good winds.

nonopr
26th September 2008, 05:16 PM
Be the only one, be differret in a good way. I am the only person using Maui Sails In Puerto Rico and I love the fact that I am fast and that no one has my sails too.
Very easy to rig. I just got a new Isonic 111 and Maui Sails 7.6 TR4/mast and boom with 42cm Vector Fin and the rig felt like I rode that rig for the last year. First time I rig all.
Incredible. From the get go everything felt perfect. Props to Maui Sails and Starboard.

geo
26th September 2008, 07:51 PM
Hi unregistered,
I don't have that much experience on older Barry's designs, but my TR-2s were direct descendants of your Nitros, so maybe the comparison will hold. TR-3s felt more powerful but had better range and were easier at top end. TR-4s have even better range at top end while giving up no power at all. The light feeling is still there, only extended in higher wind speeds. I think I can hold my current TR-4 7.0 in higher winds than I was able to sail my TR-2 6.6 in, and with more ease.
I think it's puzzling how people go on purchasing sails that do not perform, or take forever to figure out correct setting, or are conceived for Hulk racers only, or give lots of troubles just to detect which masts will work on without breaking, or a combination of those; while disregard superfast, easy to use, light feeling, nicely engineered rig offerings from the most experienced people in the industry.

Unregistered
26th September 2008, 09:18 PM
Hi,

I use x9 equipment/ RSR sails. No problems here. Since I got the Neilpryde MXT extender I pull the sail downhaul by hand.

BTW I broke more 'other' brand masts a year than NP X9 masts this year. Neilpryde has fixed the mastbreak problem. I sail from 7.8 and smaller.

Hangloose

Unregistered
26th September 2008, 09:24 PM
Hi unregistered,

I think it's puzzling how people go on purchasing sails that do not perform, or take forever to figure out correct setting, or are conceived for Hulk racers only, or give lots of troubles just to detect which masts will work on without breaking, or a combination of those; while disregard superfast, easy to use, light feeling, nicely engineered rig offerings from the most experienced people in the industry.

You mean Neilpryde RS Racing? Haha, I know for sure you have never tryed one. And if you did it was probaly rigged like hell. LOL, a good friend of mine changed a TR-3 for a RS:Racing because it was WAY faster... His weight??? 60kg

RS:Racing just for fat boys? = NOT true
X9 breaks every year = NOT true

RS:Racing fastest sail on planet = true

Tim Fast
27th September 2008, 04:15 AM
I can confirm no need for me to go away from NP,

the speed and performance of the sails is just outstanding , and I agree with the MXT and good rope no prob to pull the DH appropriately.

I broke my last X9 two years ago, seems really to me that they fixed (or at least improved) the quality of the masts.

SB and NP = unbeatable combo (mostly ;)

Unregistered
27th September 2008, 11:10 AM
yes, GEO I agree

it is far more about experience

I have sailed various designs of Barry's from NP

and from Nitro 3 4 .... to tr 1 2 3 and 4

They have always been super fast and easy

The new TR-3 and 4 are a further step up. They are a head of the bell curve on rigging support as well.

Information is offered and shared all good too

geo
27th September 2008, 06:24 PM
Poster #11: isn't Neil Pryde still offering their masts with a six month warranty (http://rsracing.neilpryde.com/x9-ultra/limited-warranty.html)? I guess they know better than you...
As for speed, I don't know... what I see is everything goes, at an high enough level: top racers are winning with NP RS:R, Warps, Vapors, TR-s, anything. Oh well, KP past year did nicely on TR-3s against competitors 10 to 25 kgs. heavier than him, and "recreational sailor" Martin Van Meurs clocked 50+ on a TR-3, and 46+ on a 6.3 TR-3 and iSonic 86, so probably Maui Sails are at least right up there about speed.
My point is that I prefer to have, or, better say: I think it is preferrable to have rigs that deliver outstanding and reliable performances, are easy to use, feel nice also under the hands of ordinary sailors and are easy to setup well right from the first time out. In my view, I know of one only sailmaker producing slalom gear up to ALL such requirements. All others, by direct experience or by word of mouth not denied by owners, or even sailmakers themselves as in the case of NP's mast warranties, fall short of one or more.

peter n-m
28th September 2008, 03:16 AM
I think there's a lot of different experiences with the RS Racing sails. Here's one:
http://www.peterman.dk/windsurf-NP-RS-series-780gb.htm

Regards
Peter

Philip
28th September 2008, 04:33 AM
That is a comprehensive review for sure! Same experience with camber strings, fin sizing, batten tension v. cam rotation and de-rig. That said there is not a sail I have owned over the years without its particular issues and breakages - really a question of knowing what to look for. On the RS Racing the article is an excellent primer.

nonopr
28th September 2008, 05:48 AM
Peter n-m you killed RS Sails with this review. I am glad I use Maui Sails now.

geo
28th September 2008, 01:18 PM
Very interesting. I didn't know all that: I discarded NP just because of reported mast failures, "limited" mast warranty and the stiff hard feel described at the beginning of Peter's report. It's hard to believe a race sail in 2008 still may have so many issues, and in some cases very silly ones as the luff cracking.

In my experience TR's don't break tip battens, at least in the smallish sizes I use. But at times the lowest cam tends to be stuck on the mast when derigging, which I do by just releasing DH tension. From now on, I'll better pop that cam off before releasing tension, or at least open up its zipper in order to release some tension.

Unregistered
29th September 2008, 08:09 PM
What's the word on 2006 North formula sails? I have opportunity to buy 11.0 with mast pretty cheap. Should I pay more for newer sail or different brand?
thanks!

peter n-m
30th September 2008, 12:34 AM
Hi unregistered (#19),

I had one for 1 year. I forund it of very good built quality (never one breakdown), pretty powerful and a little heavy feeling. The mast (the 2006 Platinum 550 cm) is a little stiff compared to other 550 cm masts (measured to 36.5, see http://www.peterman.dk/masts-all-imcs01.htm ), and this might ad to my view, that the rigg is perhaps best for a little heavier sailors.
If you promise not to laugh too much, you can see the sail (the white sail) in action here: http://www.peterman.dk/windsurfvideo-dragsmur06-intro-gb-780.htm .

Regards
Peter

Unregistered
30th September 2008, 01:13 AM
Thanks Peter NM,

I had seen the video a while back, but I enjoyed looking at it again. I really like windsurfing videos shot off speed boat.
I'm gonna get the 11.0 and the 11.9. the only thing that worries me about the 11.9 is that the extension looks real long...

Unregistered
3rd October 2008, 06:02 AM
I think there's a lot of different experiences with the RS Racing sails. Here's one:
http://www.peterman.dk/windsurf-NP-RS-series-780gb.htm

Regards
Peter

Eeehhh Peter,

Did you ever read the instruction manual? (http://rsracing.neilpryde.com/download/pdf/rsr_rigging_guide_2007.pdf)

Yes the RSRacing is not bulletproof, Yes just 5% of the sailors can rig it, Yes 1% of the sailors can tune it right. BUT to follow the rigging guide is STEP N# 1. To save my sail, I pop of cams by hand, and I only push towards the batten. SO I don't bend the batten to pop off. Battentensioner is making 90 degrees with sail (@cams) no cams less tensions to top. Downhaul is with right mast like said on sail, but please don't overdownhaul, it really makes the sail perform less. When softer mast use little less downhaul. When mast is stiffer you will break the sail @ some point.

Of course there is a small chance of faults. But you have broken so much stuff, way more than me and 5 other NP RS Racing sailors together. I am doing at least 1000 miles a year per sail! I have never broken NP parts, but I know you can easily break some NP equipment when not careful. Oh, and I read a few days ago 40kn on the GPS, I don't know if that is fast?

When you fly away with NP you probaly rigged to big, or to less downhaul. Np RSRacing got really less lift=noselift compared to others. Maybe you can adjust boom/mastfoot?

For the NP RSRAcing you do have to know what a sail can do or cannot.... AS said before, when rigged right... no problems for lightweight sailors or heavyweight. And all NP RS sails I know are still in 1 piece and they are winning almost everything.

geo
3rd October 2008, 03:56 PM
Instruction manual, yes... anyhow, I know of a few other sailmakers (oh well: more or less, all of the other sailmakers...) you would never be able to find such a report about their products... simply because "you can easily break some NP equipment when not careful", but probably much less so with other brands. And again, most of all: Neil Pryde are the first ones to point at their own unreliability, by offering "limited warranty" (6 months) on their race masts.
As for "... When you fly away with NP...", I know that many many factors may have determined this, but in that epic Sylt 2nd slalom final held in unforecasted wild wind, the ONLY one NP sailor who made to the final was no less than AA, who finished in unusual for him 7th. Maybe others were able to rely on better range, including those on North?

In the end: almost any recent sail can provide excellent performances; some can do that with ease and reliability right out of the bag, others you have to be careful and take some time to figure out the good settings, and even maybe snap some masts despite that... sure NP sails can be sailed at 40 knots, just like a few others, but trying to disguise they have some problems will only help NP to sell more sails with some problems in the future.
And of course 5% of sailors being able to rig and 1% to tune is not exactly good.

Unregistered
3rd October 2008, 06:14 PM
Instruction manual, yes... anyhow, I know of a few other sailmakers (oh well: more or less, all of the other sailmakers...) you would never be able to find such a report about their products... simply because "you can easily break some NP equipment when not careful", but probably much less so with other brands. And again, most of all: Neil Pryde are the first ones to point at their own unreliability, by offering "limited warranty" (6 months) on their race masts.
As for "... When you fly away with NP...", I know that many many factors may have determined this, but in that epic Sylt 2nd slalom final held in unforecasted wild wind, the ONLY one NP sailor who made to the final was no less than AA, who finished in unusual for him 7th. Maybe others were able to rely on better range, including those on North?

In the end: almost any recent sail can provide excellent performances; some can do that with ease and reliability right out of the bag, others you have to be careful and take some time to figure out the good settings, and even maybe snap some masts despite that... sure NP sails can be sailed at 40 knots, just like a few others, but trying to disguise they have some problems will only help NP to sell more sails with some problems in the future.
And of course 5% of sailors being able to rig and 1% to tune is not exactly good.

Nice Topic!!!

HAha, please GEO keep those Ford Mustang sails. I'll race you with my Formule 1 sails. You have never Owned a NP RS Racing, so please stick to your fancy sails. Maybe you sailed one of your sailingbuddies RS sail, and you were not capable tuning your kit.

Dude if you are really that smart you would be sailing NP. Haha, other sailbrands don't need tuning??? LOL... It is true a lot other sailbrands don't got a real sweetspot on downhaul. The vapors/tr-3/4 have indeed a big tuning-range over downhaul. I like the sweetspot of NP, when you found it, nobody can beat you.

Martn van Meurs changed to NP, I don't think the sails are slower... Sylt is not over yet. The Sylt Conditions change all the time, results are not really easy to draw conclusions. We'll see,when 4th slalom elimination it could be a bit different...

Please stop posting nonsense, you are just repeating old rumors... Warranty 6 months... If your X9 breaks on the first session it is a mast with flaw. If it breaks 2 session or later the owner damaged the mast. If sailors read those little books "product care information", everything will stay in 1 piece.

Every mast/boom I broke was the first session, during rigging/ or while sailing. 12 months warranty is not intresting for me, maybe for you?

Unregistered
3rd October 2008, 06:56 PM
GEO = Giorgio Carpi , the italian windsurfer, the starboard/mauisails.com expert, see mauisails forum for name. I like to know what level you are at sooooo...

[url=http://www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=34116&uid=1603]searchedd GPS-Speedsurfing with google[url]

Giorgio Carpi. Home spot, : Talamone (GR), Italy. Height, : 191 cm. Weight, : 83.0

Average speed 56.19 kmh, Carbon Art SL 58 / Maui Sails TR-4 6.3
Max. GPS (display) 60.19 kmh, Carbon Art SL 58 / Maui Sails TR-4 6.3
Max. 2 sec. (software) 60.75 kmh, Carbon Art SL 58 / Maui Sails TR-4 6.3
Max. 10 sec. run 57.6 kmh, Carbon Art SL 58 / Maui Sails TR-4 6.3
100 m run 58.52 kmh, Carbon Art SL 58 / Maui Sails TR-4 6.3
250 m run 55 kmh, Carbon Art SL 58 / Maui Sails TR-4 6.3
500 m run 54.08 kmh, Carbon Art SL 58 / Maui Sails TR-4 6.3
Nautical mile 47.6 kmh, Starboard Sonic 95 / Maui Sails TR-3 7.0
1 hour 33.3 kmh, Carbon Art SL 58 / Maui Sails TR-4 7.0

haha, your not that fast. Now I understand why you don't like NP, you have still some things to learn.

geo
3rd October 2008, 07:00 PM
I owned a NP RS:3 for two seasons and decided not to buy NP ever more. No real problems with the sail, but poor overall quality (didn't break anything, but not worth its price) and not nice sailing feel.
Vapors and TR's have NOTHING to do with each other. Can't say about Vapors about that, but TR-3 and 4 seem to work extremely nice with a huge tuning range: not quite a "sweet spot", but rather different sweet spots for different conditions. Most of that is out of OH, no need to tweak DH (unless you are for specific extra broad reach, high wind speed sailing).
MVM changed to NP for the most obvious reason, there is one thing that NP can provide to team riders and Maui Sails can not. MVM did great things on TR's, we will see on NP. Again, my point is: Maui Sails are just as competitive (well in my view not just that, but this is personal), much easier to use (as you pointed out really well: "Yes just 5% of the sailors can rig it, Yes 1% of the sailors can tune it right") and perfectly reliable. And, oh, did I mention not overly expensive?
Sylt is not over: I was suggesting that NP's did not show well in epic conditions. Almost didn't show at all. Probably will, as always, in easier weather. By the way, Albeau just won race 3 in 12 knots.
24 month warranty is the law here in Europe. Don't know how NP does manage that, probably relies on people not starting lawsuits that often for small things like broken masts; nevertheless limited warranty is a clear indicator of how much reliable their stuff is. 6 month warranty is not old rumor, but present reality.
I broke one Gaastra 460/25 mast in 2006, that was after half a dozen sessions. It was replaced under warranty. The base snapped about 50 cms. over the boom, immediately after rigging and before sailing. Did I damage it? Well, I can't understand how, and then why warranty applied.

geo
3rd October 2008, 07:07 PM
As for my speed, never said I am that fast. You did. I guess this has little to do with NP sail quality, which is the topic.
Anyhow, you could always come and check by yourself how fast YOU are "speed sailing" at least 150 mts. from shore among kiter's wakes, freestylers, knee-high chop... no speed strips and smooth waters here, sorry. By the way, my personal best speed was done about 1 mile offshore, in 2 mts. high, 6 Bft driven windswell: at least, between swells I could find some smooth water. Pity you can't go that deep downwind that way, and neither keep a straight line for more than a few seconds.

By the way, and this means really nothing re. sails ease of use or durability: do you really think doing 40 knots on smooth water, where others are doing 5 to 10 more, is that fast? MVM did 45+ on an iSonic86 and 6.3...

Papounet
3rd October 2008, 10:48 PM
Hi,
Neilpryde has fixed the mastbreak problem.

Hangloose

Finian agree with you...
http://www.pwaworldtour.com/typo3temp/pics/7b9dc0d714.jpg

The same for Le Guen in elimination 2

Papounet
3rd October 2008, 10:57 PM
SB and NP = unbeatable combo (mostly ;)
Sylt :

Elimination 1 => Moussilmani s => F2/Simmer
Elimination 2 => Angulo => Tabou/Maui sails
Elimination 3 => A => *Board/Pryde

After 3 eliminations
1 > Williams => Tabou/Gaastra
2 > Dunky => *Board/North
3 > Moussilmani C => Fanatoc/North

Really a funny race, everybody takes a piece of the cake (-;

geo
3rd October 2008, 11:00 PM
Another few things. Unregistered post #25.
First of all, I understand you must be new to the internet and you should better learn some of the so called netiquette. It is already a bit unfair to participate in "flaming" threads where personal opinions are expressed figuring as "unregistered". Even worse, one is supposed to respect everyone else's ideas and choices about personal exposure: if I like, for whatever reason, to figure as "geo", no one else is supposed to disclose my identity. Actually it is no problem for me, my nick is just that and not a shield; but such behaviour as yours could easily be a problem for someone. I am even amused that you were not banned by the forum administrator; I will not ask for that, as I really do not care, but in my view that should have been done without asking.
That said. I never said I am any "fast". And I never said I am a "starboard/mauisails.com expert". I just owned 3 Starboards over time, and 6 Maui Sails in just 4 sizes, so I do not qualify as an expert. KP is, MVM is, others by sure, not me.