PDA

View Full Version : NEW NP RS Racing sails


Thomas123
9th December 2008, 07:13 AM
So what do you think about it?

I think it's mad. It looks like two sails in one.

Will that work? Or just marketing rubish?

geo
9th December 2008, 03:35 PM
To me it's always a matter of gains and costs.
Indeed the ability to "automatically" spill out excessive pressure is a desirable gain. Stabilizing the front part of the profile, I am not sure as it seems to me that modern cambered sails already have stability to spare.
Costs: the part of the sail affected by the counter-curvature gets an odd profile, probably non-efficient, as wetted surface is still all there and angle of attack is not reduced. Plus, by the pictures I see, this happens only in a small portion of the sail, and at batten #3 everything seems just as usual; so seems that such "mechanism" is actually working only down low, close to the sailor's body, where pressure can be easily controlled. Plus again, the area below the boom is reduced, and there is where most of the controllable power is usually generated. More, the sails look really ugly.
In the end, in my view: probably the same pressure reduction can be obtained by just sheeting out a tiny bit... so what use?
At this point, one could get the usual idea: change just for change, weird look, make people talk, marketing...
Well I have to admit I have never been a NP fan, so probably this has some influence in my views.On the other hand, my favourite brands are those that (hopefully/probably) would NEVER do anything the like. And this year expecially, looking at the news both in RS:R's and in my "favourite brand" comp sails, I am very very glad to have the views I have.

Thomas123
9th December 2008, 07:53 PM
If this sail can handle more gusts and is more stable, you can simply take bigger size than the rest of the field and as a result, you will go faster.
I am not fan of any sailmaker (personnaly I think it is stupid to be fan of any company, unless you have some shares in it obviously), I just want the best. To me this Dynamic Clew looks as the right way. Time will tell.

Thomas

Steve711
9th December 2008, 08:33 PM
Any link to the photo?

Unregistered
9th December 2008, 08:49 PM
It is on the neil pryde website

crazychemical
9th December 2008, 08:52 PM
is it me or did NP basicly add a spoiler to their sails??? What i don't get is how the battenend will be able to keep the S profile with a such speeds? Won't it be simply pushed back into the original curve at a certain speed? Or is this like NP indication that your just too overpowered at this point :D

And i agree with thomas123 to not be fan of one brand ... each brand has it's pro's and cons. I've said it before and i'll say it again: in the end it's always the rider that makes the set go, no matter how much technology is in it.

Floyd
9th December 2008, 10:43 PM
Dont like the BS name (the clew is no more dynamic than on any other sail ; is it ?) but it seems to me its simply the next step with twist off sails. In past sails twisted off to perhaps 3rd batten down (and kept drive in luff both above and below that point;(with well designed;rigged ones ). Will this design allow sail to twist off over its entire leech?? NP seem to think it will. They are normally right ?

Have you noticed that even though sails are advertised as having a bigger range year on year we still have to carry 5 of them (at least?!) to cover all winds. No manufacturer is ever going to produce a sail which would seriously reduce this. Why sell a sailor 3 sails when he will buy 5 ????

I`ve been WS 25 (+) years. I think I carry more sails now than I ever did, even though I own all the "gadgets" ??? I can now carry an 11 in 20 knots but frankly dont want to. We will never get away from right sail size for given sailor/weight/skil/conditions/board/comfort.

I suppose just because you can use a 9 metre when you should have a 7 on doesn`t mean you will choose the 9.(and bin the 7) ( I wouldn`t anyway; but I stopped racing years ago !!)

Seems a logical positive step to me.Looking forward to trying one !!

Thinking about it Dynamic Clew is better name too. Who would buy a sail named after a garden slug ???

Farlo
10th December 2008, 01:44 PM
Hi everyone, what is really new there? This concept seems to have been around for some years already. Is NP the first to describe how the sail moves? For sure they have been thinking about drag and lift. Maybe the point is not better control in gusts but more acceleration due to the improved profile. Also I wonder if this could reduce clew line adjustments. The rigging video still show some.

andretsin
10th December 2008, 06:33 PM
Hi,
there are two radical different concepts mixed here. The twist in the upper part of the sail has a bigger purpose than that one of giving control in gusts. That part of the sail work like the winglets of airplane wings. It reduces induced drag. Because having nerarly zero attack angle it makes that the diference of pressure between one side and the other of the sail is reducing until it's nearly the same at the top so that vortex almost don't appear.
It's true that in gusts it also helps when is bended to leeward. And this is what NP is pretending. I always think we have to look to nature. How are the wings of birds? Do they bend in the leach? They do in the top! So, I'm not against this this new design. We will have to wait for it's results.
An other thing wich was not correct at all is to think that is not good to loose surface below the boom. Yo must know there is a big gradient of wind in first 10m from the surface up. It means, in the surface the wind is almost zero because of friction with the ground. It increases it's speed until 30m. After that you can consider that is almost uniform. But in first 10m is where you find the biggest change. That is why an official measure of the wind must be taken at 10m of the ground. With all this i mean that is not a problem to loos surface of the sail in the lowest part. Even more, it would be interesting to study if this lower part is contribuiting to propulsion or it's friction is bigger than the propulsion it mades.
Ah! one more thing. Battens are strong enought to hold this part of the sail. Do you thing the sail makes lot of force? Just divide the force you make with your body in the boom (30kg aprox.) by all the 10sq meters. Is 30g every 10x10cm. I think is not so much. Battens will withstand it.

Unregistered
11th December 2008, 04:22 AM
Andre LeFevre did this years ago. Great over powered, but S-L-O-W due to tremendous induced drag - the reflexed portion of the sail produces zero lift, but still contributes to form drag, friction, AND parasitic drag.

Farlo
11th December 2008, 06:51 PM
Hi, this is the point. According to NP, not only the leech is reflexed but the whole shape is pushed forward, thus changing the lift/drag ratio. Does this help coping with very fast changes in wind direction (like happens in a gust) without adjusting sail's position AND improving that ratio at the same time? Or is it just for an enlarged wind range? Anyway we've seen such boom cutaway for some years now, from NP and other brands.

Wasp
18th March 2009, 01:36 PM
Maybe this is worth trying?
http://www.peterman.dk/windsurf-flaps-up01.htm

Regards,
Wasp

Screamer
18th March 2009, 09:37 PM
Let me remind everyone of some other Pryde revolutionary designs of a few years back: batwind leech and especially, Shear Tip (which broke the moment you touched anything with it).

Edit: agree with Geo, good points

Papounet
18th March 2009, 10:16 PM
Shear Tip (which broke the moment you touched anything with it).
Only on the RX1, Z1 & RX2 works well (-:

sergio k
18th March 2009, 11:28 PM
NP inroduced a lots of new elements into sail design over the years, I see it as a good
thing, pushing the development forward benefits all (look at how many changes star-board
brought into board design...), some changes were not as good as some others,
(example: first isonics), but most changes when refined over few years actually made
sails much better (maybe not batwing...). For racing you want to go as big as posible
and be in control, dynamic clew might be change is in the right direction,
this race season will tell. (and BTW: I've never owned a NP sail).
On a diff notes, I'm quite excited about Loft intoducing RDM 490-550 for race sails
that could potencially solve the huge durability issues with race masts...

Unregistered
19th March 2009, 02:47 AM
guys, have you ever seen a photo of overpowered FW sail during racing? no? then look.
also I think that nobody of you ever tried to race on formula.

"s" shaping of straight foil part is already used on severne, gaastra and np (and was 3 years ago). north batens stays rigid and ns feels heavier in gusts. so everything is ok with concept. it works perfectly and without huge boom end cutout.

Unregistered
19th March 2009, 08:05 AM
nothing wrong with new concepts but if they don't work or suffer breakage problem then at who's expense ? ...the consumer! here are the prices of EVO11 in Aussie
4.7 $1689---5.1 -$1719---5.5-$1749---6.2-$1859---7.0-$1919---7.8-$2039---8.6-$2099
9.5-$2299---10.0-$2249 and 12m-$2789

Then you have to add on the cost of masts......I'm sure they will be a big seller

Maximus
19th March 2009, 02:10 PM
I agree NP have priced themsleves out of the market.

The next cab of the rank is the RS Slaloms which I have gone to now, and are great, however even those sails can be more expensive than race sails from other brands....

So unless you are PWA racer just stay away from the RS EVO II/X9, and buy RS Slaloms/X6, go just as fast, for almost half the price!

Unregistered
19th March 2009, 11:49 PM
"On a diff notes, I'm quite excited about Loft intoducing RDM 490-550 for race sails
that could potencially solve the huge durability issues with race masts... "

I'm exited too because NP and NS sorted out RDM's from their onshore wave sails. Radical wave sails has RDM, onshores are back to SDM. RDMs are too "floppy". RDM feeling is the same if you use 70 % carbon mast instead of 100.
I don't have opinion in this field, because never tried race RDM. Just comparing RDM vs SDM on wave sails.

frgnrc
20th March 2009, 05:05 AM
I change my 9.0 rs racing 2008 for the evo 2 8.6: it is amazing! I tried yesterday with 15-20 knots, it works great control and balance and you can see the mouvment of the leech!

Unregistered
21st March 2009, 02:34 AM
nothing wrong with new concepts but if they don't work or suffer breakage problem then at who's expense ? ...the consumer! Here are the prices of evo11 in aussie
4.7 $1689---5.1 -$1719---5.5-$1749---6.2-$1859---7.0-$1919---7.8-$2039---8.6-$2099
9.5-$2299---10.0-$2249 and 12m-$2789

then you have to add on the cost of masts......i'm sure they will be a big seller

you have got to be kidding!!!

Unregistered
21st March 2009, 02:20 PM
stick with the ISAF price fixed RSX for racing forget formula

SeanAUS120
23rd March 2009, 11:35 AM
Those prices aren't entirely the fault of NP.

Last season we were buying Euros for 0.67c with an Australian dollar. Now we are buying 0.50c. All windsurfing kit will be considerably more expensive in Australia this year as nearly all gear not made in Australia is bought in Euros from the manufacturers.

That being said, do you want me to look up the price of a landed RSX in Australia right now? I'm pretty sure it would be MUCH cheaper to sail FW.

Unregistered
25th March 2009, 02:36 AM
Those prices aren't entirely the fault of NP.

Last season we were buying Euros for 0.67c with an Australian dollar. Now we are buying 0.50c. All windsurfing kit will be considerably more expensive in Australia this year as nearly all gear not made in Australia is bought in Euros from the manufacturers.

I doubt NP charges in Euros but most probably US$ which does not make things any either I guess.

Anyway apart from North which is as pricy other brands are not and it is not entirely their fault neither!!!!

SeanAUS120
26th March 2009, 05:31 PM
Totally agree ... I wasn't making excuses for anyone, just pointing out the sad state of currencies of late ...

Can't comment on every brand, but 'most' brands and definitely NP changed to Euros 4-5 seasons ago because at the time the US dollar was quite volatile, but the Euro has remained relatively constant as a currency over that period .. so probably much better (safer) for them - although more BRUTAL for us Aussies :-/

Unregistered
26th March 2009, 08:44 PM
neil pryde should be looking at the different market entry prices and adjusting for the local dollar .
So that countries that have a more volatile currency that drops in a given year dont get bashed.

its not like many aussies are going to say e bay a sail to some bloke in the usa dn make a killing.
With Canada,(which i am ) and the US however cross border deals are made all the time, it causes much consternation.

Philip
27th March 2009, 04:33 AM
RS Racing sails seem to be made in small volume and are a serious bit of kit. Some people try them and can't get into the groove, but with patience the average sailor will find their effortless performance addictive. So good that I have retired my other lesser sails. I have a quiver of the previous model of these sails with X6 masts.

There is a rigging tip that may explain some of the failures. On one sail the bottom batten 'strings' (that locate the cam for rigging) were not correctly set up meaning that the cam did not sit square on the mast and either the cam breaks (best case) or you have a severe pressure point on the mast. On another other sail it was the top cam string that had to be adjusted. So i really pays to check those cams and ensure they sit properly on the mast before and during loading the rig with down-haul.

Unregistered
27th March 2009, 05:56 AM
where can i find a process on how one is to adjust these strings???
thanks
francis D RRT ,
hamilton,
ontario, Canada

Philip
27th March 2009, 08:07 AM
Hi Francis,

I could find no instructions nor any recognition of the issue with the cams on any forum.

The cams are located during rigging and derigging by strings on either side looped (using the 'eye splice' knot) through holes in the mast side of the cam. The strings are anchored in the mast sleeve.

Determine which side of the string is overly tight, withdraw the mast and unpick that splice. Due to the tight working area within the sail sleeve what I do is to add in a length of brick layers nylon plaited string and recreate the loop using something like a 'bowline' or 'anglers' knot. I back this up with 'stopper' knots and ensure the ends of the strings are heat sealed (a lighted match will do the job and using a hot knife is even better).

I run mine slightly on the long side and handle the cam as the downhaul is applied to ensure it is seated properly on the mast. Also I keep an eye on what happens when derigging to ensure the cam does what it is supposed to in relation to the batten end and how far it pops out in relation to the sail pocket.

Sounds more complicated than it really is.

nonopr
27th March 2009, 10:59 AM
Have you guys seen how many people has seen this post. Almost 3,000 people. Neilpryde needs to read this website and make some changes somewhere. More bad news than goods in every reply.
Mr. Pryde listen and you will be again on top of your world, but if not already a few new companies have started to dig some holes in your future as the top brand in this industry.

Unregistered
27th March 2009, 01:20 PM
Good Lord !
"String and wire" needed to rig the most expensive sail in the world ??
It'll be a cottage industry for ever at this rate !

Philip
27th March 2009, 02:19 PM
No wire. String is probably my mistaken description.

Anyhow sailing craft rigging is about rope. My contribution this thread is not intended as a criticism of NP. Sailing is a hands on occupation and the components are ultimately 'consumables' after (emphasis) fair use. Even if things come out of the box truly plug and play they don't stay that way for long with wear and tear if used every other day. Yes it would be good to have those cam ties sorted at the factory but my message to users was to double check how things go together on day 1 to prevent unnecessary damage.

On those occasions when I have damaged fittings the NP people in Australia have always been there to provide support. The same can be generally said of the Australian WS industry which thankfully has not outgrown its cottage industry roots.

Unregistered
28th March 2009, 01:52 AM
wow, almost four pages into an NP thread before nonopr jumps in to start bashin'! was your computer down all this time?

go get 'em! keep us safe from the monumental evil that is Neil Pryde! they're the only company that's ever had a mast break! or a batten! or a sail! I heard that for every RS Racing sail they sell, they drown a kitten!

Unregistered
28th March 2009, 03:37 AM
wow, almost four pages into an NP thread before nonopr jumps in to start bashin'! was your computer down all this time?

go get 'em! keep us safe from the monumental evil that is Neil Pryde! they're the only company that's ever had a mast break! or a batten! or a sail! I heard that for every RS Racing sail they sell, they drown a kitten!


naaa the thing with pryde is they churn out average kit but hype it as if its the best in the world. It aint.
If they spent a little less on hype and marketing and a little more on the kit im sure they could find a way to make it excelent as opposed to average.

michelb
28th March 2009, 03:42 AM
Wilhem wins the South American Cup in Mendoza, but seems that he use the RS Racing instead the new one..... Why? If you see the pictures nobody in the new Prydes....
Lot of Severne Code Red 2009.

Unregistered
28th March 2009, 03:50 AM
naaa the thing with pryde is they churn out average kit but hype it as if its the best in the world. It aint.
If they spent a little less on hype and marketing and a little more on the kit im sure they could find a way to make it excelent as opposed to average.

Why do you hate kittens???!

Unregistered
28th March 2009, 03:53 AM
Wilhem wins the South American Cup in Mendoza, but seems that he use the RS Racing instead the new one..... Why? If you see the pictures nobody in the new Prydes....
Lot of Severne Code Red 2009.

So last year's NP Racing beat the snot out of a whole crapload of brand new Code Reds?

Too bad for Bjorn http://www.star-board.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif

Unregistered
28th March 2009, 03:56 AM
Good Lord !
"String and wire" needed to rig the most expensive sail in the world ??
It'll be a cottage industry for ever at this rate !

This is bad news...for Obama!

nonopr
28th March 2009, 04:34 AM
wow, almost four pages into an NP thread before nonopr jumps in to start bashin'! was your computer down all this time?

go get 'em! keep us safe from the monumental evil that is Neil Pryde! they're the only company that's ever had a mast break! or a batten! or a sail! I heard that for every RS Racing sail they sell, they drown a kitten!


Like Always you are in the unregistered list. Wonder why??? Neilpryde logo in your forehead??
Love you..

Unregistered
28th March 2009, 04:38 AM
Like Always you are in the unregistered list. Wonder why??? Neilpryde logo in your forehead??
Love you..

Like always, you are an attention whore. Wonder why??? Mommy pulled you off the tit too soon??

Besides, don't you have a Maui sails 'kitten' you should be hugging?

nonopr
28th March 2009, 06:15 AM
Like always, you are an attention whore. Wonder why??? Mommy pulled you off the tit too soon??

Besides, don't you have a Maui sails 'kitten' you should be hugging?

Wow a great responce from the unregistered. Thanks for the support always.
Keep them coming.
Love ya!!!

Unregistered
28th March 2009, 06:29 AM
We aim to please!

Unregistered
29th March 2009, 09:13 AM
It's all on the np site, don't know of any forums that have the details.


http://rsracing.neilpryde.com/rig-tune/ultracam-maintenance-tuning.html

Philip
29th March 2009, 11:29 AM
Quite right. I seem to have reinvented the wheel. Simpler tie-off than I have been using.

Erik Loots
29th March 2009, 09:01 PM
I have sailed a few RS:Racing EVOII sails now (6.2/7.0/7.8), the pryde feeling is still in the sails. BUT it is way lighter in top-end therefor easier to control. This was always the discussion point on the internet about the older RS:R to stiff etc. I Guess NP have listened to the amateur sailors.

I do like all series NP RS:R and RS:R Evo 1 also the new RS:R Evo 2. I do find it quite hard to get a good trim with the newer RS:R Evo 2, but I guess that I have to get used to those sails. I know for sure that with a NP RS:Racing EVO 2 you have the widest windrange per sailsize.

BTW I also like a Maui Sails TR-3/4, very light feeling and automatic sailtrim. These sails are supereasy to rig & sail. But also the Maui Sails have their limitations @ some point.

Please don't bash each other guys! We should be promoting windsurfing, give the world a positive feeling about windsurfing!!! These negative discussions ain't good.

Cheers,

Erik Loots

http://feeds2.feedburner.com/SpeedsurfingBlog.1.gif (http://speedsurfingblog.com)

Unregistered
30th March 2009, 12:03 AM
So last year's NP Racing beat the snot out of a whole crapload of brand new Code Reds?

Too bad for Bjorn http://www.star-board.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif

Remember " is not the arrow, is the INDIAN", Wilhem are a serious formula racer.... Undoubtly one of the bests in the world, like Gonzalo Costa Hoevel. And the Code reds in second place means not so bad.......

Papounet
30th March 2009, 07:31 PM
We should be promoting windsurfing, give the world a positive feeling about windsurfing!!!

Yes we can (-:

Dont forget that old sails, works prety well !

Fabian Pendle 6, at PSL speed last week with a 2005 sail.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Qxorv1EF8sw/SdCLVxFyrII/AAAAAAAAGNQ/yxh3FC0Dix4/s720/IMG_2739.JPG
You can find a used one for 120 € and an old 75% mast is fine.
Windsurfing is not so expensive...

The 12 first, race or have raced in PWA or World Speed...
http://www.windsurfjournal.com/virtual/2/Documents/pdf/Coupe%20de%20France%20PSL%20Manche%203%20Hommes.pd f

First EVO II is 9

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Qxorv1EF8sw/SdCG56aYmAI/AAAAAAAAFzE/dTv7RtEdt0Q/s720/IMG_2593.JPG

Papounet
10th April 2009, 09:00 PM
The concept was already used in the 90

Levebvre sails
http://www.lefebvre-sails.de/fileadmin/lefebvre/produkte/powerleech.gif
http://www.lefebvre-sails.de/fileadmin/lefebvre/produkte/jumbo2.gif

Art sails ( Spindler or Stroj ??? )
http://i13.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/1c/3d/ada0_1.JPG

And in an other form by Dupré
http://homme-mouche.vip-blog.com/medias/0606/514911Stabili.1.jpg
http://homme-mouche.vip-blog.com//medias/0606/939307stabilisateurDupre1.jpg

http://www.vip-blog.com/vip/blogs/homme-mouche.html?entree