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jago25_98
16th December 2008, 01:14 AM
I don't really think a wetsuit is really the best thing for a sport mostly out of the water.

What could be better?

A dry suit?
A semi dry suit?

Has anyone tried something different like this? Was it warmer?

kennatt
16th December 2008, 02:40 PM
a dry suit or semi is ok if you are out of the water but once in the water which you often are then the heat transfer from you to the cold water is greater than that in a wet suit which offers better insulation . Good wet suits are also more flexible but then its all down to personal preference .Fair winds.

John Kemsley
16th December 2008, 03:47 PM
It would depend on the air and water temperatures respectivly, nice summer day = shorts and rash vest. It also dpends on how often you fall in!!

Dont forget you can buy different wetsuits for different seasons

Unregistered
16th December 2008, 04:09 PM
a dry suit or semi is ok if you are out of the water but once in the water which you often are then the heat transfer from you to the cold water is greater than that in a wet suit which offers better insulation . Good wet suits are also more flexible but then its all down to personal preference .Fair winds.

I am sorry but that is all wrong. Have you already tried one ?

The Drysuit offer much more protection against cold than a wetsuit. In fact you are totally isolated from the outside (zero water, zero windchill). You are so much isolated that you can easily get too warm, even when the water is +5C and the air +5C or below.

In countrys like canada, danemark, sweden etc ... they only use that.

Your body is not wasting energy to warm up the water layer which is between your skin and the suit like in a wetsuit. This water layer has to be warmed up again and again and again ...

In top of that the Drysuit is much more flexible than the drysuit if you choose the correct size, just try one ...

nonopr
16th December 2008, 06:24 PM
check this out.

http://www.ripcurl.com/index.php?hbomb



I don't really think a wetsuit is really the best thing for a sport mostly out of the water.

What could be better?

A dry suit?
A semi dry suit?

Has anyone tried something different like this? Was it warmer?

Floyd
16th December 2008, 09:47 PM
From someone who managed to set their mountain bike on fire with lighting equipment not sure I will be trying an electrically heated wet suit.(Will it make tea aswell ?)
Batteries ; heating elements; neopreme and salt water dont sound a good mix to me !!
Resultant burns would take some explaining; (like my insurance claim for spontaneous combusting mountain bike).

On a serious note; problem isnt producing the heat (your thighs will produce 5 times more than 2 lithium batteries ever could) problem is keeping the heat in and at right places !
How many times have you sailed with a warm torso (your own that is) but freezing fingers/toes ??
Dont think my chest;shoulders etc are ever cold; its the extremities, which heated suits will not help. (Heated diving suits circulate hot water everywhere)
(Yes I know keeping torso/kidneys warm helps everywhere; but heat loss from that bit of hot suit will be incredble.)

Ken
17th December 2008, 12:17 AM
Bottom Line -

Figure on worse case scenario - equipment breakdown and you have to sit or swim for an hour or more. If your suit won't protect you in this situation, don't go out.


Ken

nonopr
17th December 2008, 01:06 AM
From someone who managed to set their mountain bike on fire with lighting equipment not sure I will be trying an electrically heated wet suit.(Will it make tea aswell ?)
Batteries ; heating elements; neopreme and salt water dont sound a good mix to me !!
Resultant burns would take some explaining; (like my insurance claim for spontaneous combusting mountain bike).

On a serious note; problem isnt producing the heat (your thighs will produce 5 times more than 2 lithium batteries ever could) problem is keeping the heat in and at right places !
How many times have you sailed with a warm torso (your own that is) but freezing fingers/toes ??
Dont think my chest;shoulders etc are ever cold; its the extremities, which heated suits will not help. (Heated diving suits circulate hot water everywhere)
(Yes I know keeping torso/kidneys warm helps everywhere; but heat loss from that bit of hot suit will be incredble.)

That is the worst comment I have ever read in regar this suit. Please learn first how your body gets warn and then comment .
You blood circulates to all of your body the heating element in the suit attacks the back , Why? because is the closest part to your lungs where all the blood is taken for oxigenation. And if all your blood is warm you arm will be warm all the way to your finger tips. RipCurl tested this suit for 3 year before going to market and not one of the RipCurl surfers ever suffer of any cold fingertips even surfing in the artic circle At -10 Celcius.
The heating element is cover and not in touch with your body, plus all the connections are water proof. RipCurl has made wetsuits for over 40 years and You might think that, if they come up with a suit like this it would be water proof or to the elements. Check the website in detail, so you get to learn technology is help not a handicap.

Per
17th December 2008, 02:26 AM
Hi.
I live and windsurf in Denmark, and to me around zero days (celcius) are normal for four months a year. It's actually not that complicated. I use a Gul drysuit. Not neoprene but made from the same fabric as normal sailing clothes though being waterproof in all openings. I wear some fleece and cotton underwear under it. Put on some Da Kine cold water mitts, a thin neoprene helmet if it gets really cold, and finally some not too thick boots (5 mm is plenty, anything above and you will loose control and contact).
I can go surfing for hours. The Gul suit feels lighter and more comfortable than a normal wet suit and I never freeze while rigging. I used to have a NP neoprene 6/4 dry suit. It was only dry for a few weeks, it fealt heavy and compromised my body movements a lot. It fell apart after three seasons.
To me neoprene is out of the question for winter windsurfing.

;-)
Per

Unregistered
17th December 2008, 05:08 AM
Check out Dave Graneys 'suit of the future'. Extreme style. The Aussies will know.
How do you post pictures?

Floyd
17th December 2008, 05:47 AM
nonpr
So I guess you are selling the battery operated suits then Nonpr ??

Ofcourse heat on Torso will help keep all body warm but GOOD suits do that without batteries.I have sailed through loads of Northern UK winters perfectly OK without hood;gloves or batteries.Excessive heat will just be lost through higher rate of heat loss.(Double heat gradient quadruple heat loss blah blah blah.)

PROBLEM IS NOT PRODUCING HEAT ITS KEEPING IT !!! Try batteries/element in a woolly jumper;see how warm your toes are then ???

Case of dont knock the products I`m selling them ????

Floyd
17th December 2008, 05:57 AM
My mistake Nonopr .
You arent selling them ; you are representing them.
"email me about the brands I represent"" ??
No thanks. Pirating somebody elses website ??? Nice one.
Then you have cheek to knock me ??
BTW if thats worst comment you`ve read you need to read more !!!
Perhaps its onset of Hypothermia ? Could even be Hypathermia with wrong batteries. ???

nonopr
17th December 2008, 06:42 AM
My mistake Nonopr .
You arent selling them ; you are representing them.
"email me about the brands I represent"" ??
No thanks. Pirating somebody elses website ??? Nice one.
Then you have cheek to knock me ??
BTW if thats worst comment you`ve read you need to read more !!!
Perhaps its onset of Hypothermia ? Could even be Hypathermia with wrong batteries. ???

I might be the rep for RipCurl in Puerto Rico, Caribbean and Costa Rica, but none of those areas really need this product and telling you what we have is just help, if you dont want to hear it, then no problem. But I dont hijack anyones website to promote anything I sell.
By the way i think you forgot this is a FREE FORUM SECTION group and the forum groups are to have discussion about product, new things happening, trends, etc. etc etc. But on the Free Forums you can do what ever you want , less porn or other obscene stuff

I am equally passionate about the equipment I use and that happen to be Starboard, MauiSail and Vector fins and those guys dont send me any free product or I dont get any special discount and I still recommend them as the best product there is, In my opinon. Take it or leave it.:)

Floyd
17th December 2008, 03:43 PM
So bascally you never sail in cold water and haven`t used the mentioned suit.?
Your reccomendations are third party and made because you happen to be rep for products mentioned.Another nice one !

Yes its a free Forum.I`m not telling folk THEY ARE WRONG. You are. (Because you`ve read somewhere suits are good ???) Its a Free forum to expres opinions not push the gear you sell.

AND you have a direct link on all your posts to your "representation site " ? (Selling guess what Rip Curl)

Yes Rip Curl are decent suits. No better (perhaps no worse) than many others. The battery pack is (IMO obviuosly) a gimmick and a potentialy dangerous one at that.
Do the maths. I have. ( ie the heat available from batteries and the heat produced by the body; its blatantly obviuos then.You`d need a battery size of your board to keep you warm in water below 6 degrees or so.(Our sea temp !!)

Like they say BBS. Bullshit Baffles Brains.

Think I`ll leave it.

Take care. Good sailing in that warm water over there.

Unregistered
17th December 2008, 05:11 PM
Yes Rip Curl are decent suits. No better (perhaps no worse) than many others. The battery pack is (IMO obviuosly) a gimmick and a potentialy dangerous one at that.
Do the maths. I have. ( ie the heat available from batteries and the heat produced by the body; its blatantly obviuos then.You`d need a battery size of your board to keep you warm in water below 6 degrees or so.(Our sea temp !!)


I totally agree with that.
If you're serious about windsurfing in cold weather, try a good drysuit and nothing else...

nonopr
17th December 2008, 05:45 PM
So bascally you never sail in cold water and haven`t used the mentioned suit.?
Your reccomendations are third party and made because you happen to be rep for products mentioned.Another nice one !

Yes its a free Forum.I`m not telling folk THEY ARE WRONG. You are. (Because you`ve read somewhere suits are good ???) Its a Free forum to expres opinions not push the gear you sell.

AND you have a direct link on all your posts to your "representation site " ? (Selling guess what Rip Curl)

Yes Rip Curl are decent suits. No better (perhaps no worse) than many others. The battery pack is (IMO obviuosly) a gimmick and a potentialy dangerous one at that.
Do the maths. I have. ( ie the heat available from batteries and the heat produced by the body; its blatantly obviuos then.You`d need a battery size of your board to keep you warm in water below 6 degrees or so.(Our sea temp !!)

Like they say BBS. Bullshit Baffles Brains.

Think I`ll leave it.

Take care. Good sailing in that warm water over there.


I was actually one of the test persons in the artic with that suit and you are wrong about the need of a big battery, we used two celphone size batteries and in low we got over 3 hours of service, in med it lasted 2 hours and in high lasted about an hour in -10 celcius. I used gloves and head cap and booties, there where a few of the guys that surf with out any other than the wetsuit itself and no problems.
BUt to make myself clear here:
I AM NOT TRYING TO SELL YOU A SUIT> it was for your information and contibuting in the forum.
I guess you dont need my opinion you already have one set. Why then ask for opinon in this forum?

Floyd
17th December 2008, 06:35 PM
A human body generates around 100 watts of energy per hour.(Obviuosly dpends on work rate but this is the baseline sedentary figure for a person consuming around 2500kC a day)
This could easily double during exercise. (ie sailing)
If your body is losing more than that produced eventually hypothermia will result.
(see http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060925115020AAO4dNe)

A lithium phone battery operates at 3.6v and they are normally rated at around 500maH.
(ie it can supply 500mA for 1 hour or 250mA for 2. Or if called to do so 1 amp for half an hour.(or infinite for briefet of moments hence safety issue)
This means the batteries (mentioned) supplied 3.6v x 0.25A x 2 W of energy per hour.(volts x Amps = watts)=Approx 2 Watts per hour .(its actually less) This is a max figure. In reality batteries dont perform quite aswell as quoted (especially when cold!)

In effect we are trying to warm up a machine that generates at least 100W per hour with at most 2 W per hour !!!

Make your own mind up !!!

A car battery can supply upwards of 50Amperes hours. Try warming your car up with it. (Eectrical heaters for cars are available. They dont work either.

Heating is very expensive in electrical terms.

If you were warm in -10c it had almost nothing to do with the heating element.
(You were probably supplying more heat to batteries than them to you; I dont think they would perform well at all in water of -10c without something to heat them; ie you !)

Placebo effect ???

Floyd
17th December 2008, 06:44 PM
Apolgies.
Just looked up Lithium battery operating range.
Apparently they would operate quite well at - 10.
But they`d still only supply at best 2W per hour.(Wouldnt make a cup of cold tea !!!)

Per
17th December 2008, 07:57 PM
Batteries or not, as a winter windsurfer I've never needed any device to heat my suit. More technology means more risks of failure more things to maintain (I guess the batteries need charging) and added weight. Maybe in some kind of survival suit for extreme conditions where people just stay passive in the water, but when I put my 97 kgs. into activity, even in zero degrees, I just don't freeze in a proper winter suit.

;-)
Per

nonopr
17th December 2008, 08:21 PM
Apolgies.
Just looked up Lithium battery operating range.
Apparently they would operate quite well at - 10.
But they`d still only supply at best 2W per hour.(Wouldnt make a cup of cold tea !!!)

Floyd, I just pointed you in one of the many directions to solve a cold water problem. IF you have a RipCurl store near your area, please visit the store and try the suit and then express all critizism you want. I am open for it. I am sure RipCurl will appreciate the comments too.

Unregistered
17th December 2008, 08:40 PM
Ocean Water: Temperature
The ocean has a wide range of temperatures from the almost 100F (38C) shallow coastal waters of the tropics to the nearly freezing waters of the poles.

The freezing point of seawater is about 28.4F (-2C), instead of the 32F (0C) freezing point of ordinary water. Why do you think the freezing points are different? Right, because seawater has salt in it! As seawater increases 5 ppt in salinity, the freezing point decreases by 0.5F.


From "Ocean Talk" by Naval Meteorology and Oceanography Command



How did Nonpor test suit in -10 degrees ?

nonopr
17th December 2008, 10:08 PM
Ocean Water: Temperature
The ocean has a wide range of temperatures from the almost 100F (38C) shallow coastal waters of the tropics to the nearly freezing waters of the poles.

The freezing point of seawater is about 28.4F (-2C), instead of the 32F (0C) freezing point of ordinary water. Why do you think the freezing points are different? Right, because seawater has salt in it! As seawater increases 5 ppt in salinity, the freezing point decreases by 0.5F.


From "Ocean Talk" by Naval Meteorology and Oceanography Command



How did Nonpor test suit in -10 degrees ?


Sorry, I forgot that point not water but air temp at the time of test.. Here are some great pictures of the trip.

http://www.extranet3.ripcurl.com/albums/jtaylor/product%20images/normal_arctic_2_cmyk.jpg
http://www.extranet3.ripcurl.com/albums/jtaylor/product%20images/normal_arctic_3_cmyk.jpg
http://www.extranet3.ripcurl.com/albums/jtaylor/product%20images/normal_arctic_17_cmyk.jpg
http://www.extranet3.ripcurl.com/albums/jtaylor/product%20images/normal_arctic_5_cmyk.jpg

jago25_98
18th December 2008, 06:43 PM
re: Dry Suits:

If I was commited to lie-down surfing I'd consider the HBomb if it was half the price, or if I was richer.

As it stands I really apprieciate what Per said about his surfing off Denmark (it seemed roughly the same temp as Scotland when I was in Hansthrom) To me it seems, if doing stand up, or windsurfing in colder conditions then a good fit, quality Dry Suit is for me.

The next thing is, I know nothing about dry suits, even though I work on survey boats.

We use overalls and have to scramble for immersion suits in abandon ship drills. These things are awfully unwieldy; the hands are sealed like Mr. Blobby and the feat cause trip ups. I wonder if we should be working in Dry Suits on deck or whether that would be unwieldy.

But I do know that survival time in the North Sea is less than 5mins with average clothes, which is at least 10mins less than the time for rescue. What this all means is that the side of the boat might as well be a vat of acid.

I already have to carry 20kg of boots, overalls and jackets on the plane to each job. I wonder, could this actually be reduced by a dry suit? If so, I could justify a 1000 purchase. In fact, if it's work related I'm prepared to spend much more.

Compare this to spending 500 in order to sail/paddle/surf in the winter and it seems like a lot. Can I combine the 2 uses? What do Fishermen use for thier safety?

re: Suits:
I would like to see "Dave Graneys 'suit of the future'"
The HBomb suits used in the tests I would expect to be bespoke. I'm not sure people really remember this sort of thing; people want the cheap off the rail suits - more profit here than Snugg's bespoke 300ish suits in Newquay. A proper fit makes all the difference.

re: Batteries. I think this is more something for the surfer, because for a duck-diving surfer a dry suit is not much of an option. However, the issue of batteries running out due to user error is very important. So important that some say the product shouldn't exist. But only some people say that. If it's a well known beach break I'd love to use it, certainly if there's a support boat.

re: Hoods.
Can I just say something about hoods! They make a big difference on being warm, but can we get one that allows me to breath after being held down! One nearly killed me! Can't we get something where the chinstrap goes on the jaw/chin rather than the throat!?

Love the pics nonopr :-)

Some tips from me:
I wore my thermal underwear underneeth my suit the other day (cotton bottoms, stretch top). Seemed to help. Worth a go. Also could be worth trying: Plastic bags on feet. Also, food eaten before hand very important. Long chain carbs is what you want; Porridge oats.
The Taoist who was brought in for Russian astronaughts wore a T-Shirt in -20 to the launch. It centres around breathing. But does it work, and does it work for surfing?

drm
19th December 2008, 02:21 PM
I am sorry but that is all wrong. Have you already tried one ?

The Drysuit offer much more protection against cold than a wetsuit. In fact you are totally isolated from the outside (zero water, zero windchill). You are so much isolated that you can easily get too warm, even when the water is +5C and the air +5C or below.

In countrys like canada, danemark, sweden etc ... they only use that.

Your body is not wasting energy to warm up the water layer which is between your skin and the suit like in a wetsuit. This water layer has to be warmed up again and again and again ...

In top of that the Drysuit is much more flexible than the drysuit if you choose the correct size, just try one ...

I am from Sweden. Most people (nearly all) who sail here in winter here use wetsuits. Instead, we tend to try to add a layer or two underneath. Very effective. Any dry-suit used will be neoprene as well, because if you rip it will still keep you reasonably warm.

When sailing in winter the main (only) problem is keeping the hands warm and avoiding muscle cramp, that is what limits sailing time. Not the wetsuit.

A good, flexible wetsuit for winter-sailing with a proper fit lets very little, if any, water in so I have not experienced that the water layer "has to be warmed up again and again and again...". You need a proper rinsing in the waves for that to happen. After that, it is time to take a short break and regain som energy anyway.

raffig
19th December 2008, 05:52 PM
Totally agree with rdm, freezing hands are the real limiting factor, even if you wear the best wetsuit/drysuit.

Re: batteries - this reminds me North Face when they realeased some years ago the first battery-operated mountaineering jackets. I am afraid that they were not very successful market wise, and I am sure that the Himalayan expeditions need more serious stuff than batteries.

Rafa

Per
19th December 2008, 08:18 PM
Hi drm and others..
To sort things out a little there are basically three different suits: wet, semidry and dry.. When you say wetsuit don't you think about a semidry, like a 5/3 neoprene with waterproof seamings, but not really dry in the openings? To me a wetsuit is a kind of summer thing where water comes in in different places, but gets heated by the body.
It's true that a neoprene suit will be a little safer if it gets ripped but it's also a lot more vulnerable than a drysuit in traditional fabric. It would take a serious tool to make a hole in mine and to my experience it's just way more comfortable than any neoprene suit I've ever had. Strangey all the kiters I know in Denmark use it but windsurfers tend to stick to neoprene.

;-)
Per

jago25_98
19th December 2008, 08:29 PM
Add HBomb to a normal wetsuit:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ICEBREAKER-HEAT-VEST-NEVER-USED_W0QQitemZ120351581053QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Sp ortingGoods_Wetsuits_WatersportsClothing_CA?hash=i tem120351581053&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1298|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A13 18#ebayphotohosting

Floyd
19th December 2008, 11:28 PM
And buy a bigger board to carry battery !

Per
20th December 2008, 02:52 AM
It's made for diving where it may be necessary and 70 minutes may be long. In windsurfing 70 minutes may be half a session only, and you just wont need it unless you live near the arctic circle.
Not that I don't appreciate new ideas but I would prefare to spend the cash on good and secure equipment.

;-)

drm
22nd December 2008, 02:28 PM
Hi drm and others..
To sort things out a little there are basically three different suits: wet, semidry and dry.. When you say wetsuit don't you think about a semidry, like a 5/3 neoprene with waterproof seamings, but not really dry in the openings? To me a wetsuit is a kind of summer thing where water comes in in different places, but gets heated by the body.
It's true that a neoprene suit will be a little safer if it gets ripped but it's also a lot more vulnerable than a drysuit in traditional fabric. It would take a serious tool to make a hole in mine and to my experience it's just way more comfortable than any neoprene suit I've ever had. Strangey all the kiters I know in Denmark use it but windsurfers tend to stick to neoprene.

;-)
Per

Yes, a semi-dry. But it is still a wetsuit, isn't it?

jago25_98
22nd December 2008, 06:06 PM
What's the definition of Guilty Pleasure?

Me buying a Uli Steamroller, Colapsible Paddle and a dry suit for the princely sum of a months wages (...now the wait for customs and excise...)!