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Ulf
19th January 2009, 05:30 PM
I know the power verse tuttle/US debate has risen a number of times over the years in Kombats. I own a Freestyle wave now that is not Starboard basically motivated by this issue.
Having used powerbox on over 20 sails this spring/summer I am in full agreeance with the people saying Power is better, especially in the 90 to 105 ltr range.
I have a Kode 112 that is tuttle but really wish it was Powerbox so as to have a consistent fin system.
I wonder how many non Starboard riders would buy these boards if they had a Powerbox fin sytem.
It is way stronger than US and gives a lot more drive. My Kombats of the past had multiple fin replacments because the US snapped behind the screw due to side on pressure and on one occasion a sand bank.
I won't go back while the fins are US.
Having ridden both now I feel I can make an informed opinion, and really can't understand why Starboard decision makers don't use them.
Crazy stuff.:confused:

mim
19th January 2009, 07:37 PM
if you say you already had multiple fin exchange, than it would be much easier for you to change the finbox to Powerbox...it is not a big deal.

Have fun!
Ciao Michal.

Ola_H
19th January 2009, 07:46 PM
I respect your opinion but for me personally it's the opposite for two reasons.

1. On a board that has any chance of seeing waves I wouldn't want a fixed position box. On small and medium Kodes I run my wave fins severas centimeters forwards of where I put a freeride fin. If you buy the board fo only one type of sailing, of course you can have one perfect fin position. But on a crossover boards you can not. It will be a compromise between tuning range on one hand and ease of use on the other hand (and max fin size).

2. I regularly hit rocks where I wave sail and smash up fins. Only once I broke a fin tab in the last 10 years of sailing. I had only one powerbox wave board. I hit a rock with it one time which broke the box AND damaged the deck of the board which resulted in a big complicated repair. So, my personal experience is just the opposite.

I can understand powerboxes are popular on freestyle boards where you don't need the tuning range since they are easier to use (saving you 20 seconds or something when mounting). Same things for small boards that are used only for freeride (which would apply to people that buy a fsw board to use only in that type of sailing). But in the whole scheme of things, I think the powerbox is just a bad idea, trading strength (relative a tuttle) and tuning ability (relative a us-box) for a tiny bit of extra ease of use.

But thats just my own personal opinion. Let's hear what other say.

Farlo
20th January 2009, 02:52 AM
Hi Ulf & Ola, for me the best box ever was Tiga's conical box (the last one with the hand-screw, both robust and convenient). This been said, isn't that possible to put wave fins forwards and freeride fins backwards in the head, so that one fixed box would accomodate both styles? In most cases the head is several cm larger than the fin. Going further, what about a head (let's say Tuttle) with a deep slot to fit blades at multiple positions, like a US box but pressing from the sides? I've got several fins with box adaptors and never broke any.

Ola_H
20th January 2009, 05:04 AM
This was actually ow it was done on the original Starboard Aero which is the predecessor of the big Kodes (but with more wave orientation, I would say). The mega big wave fin (similar in shape to the Drake Naturals) was placed forward in the head, with an inch or so sticking out in front of the head. A functional compromise, but the problem is that is is difficult to get a good fit between the "free" end of the fin and the bottom of the board. I had some strange sounds coming from the fin and ANY weed in the water would get stuck.

Ulf
20th January 2009, 05:29 AM
MiM I replace my boards each year and the trade would be greatly reduced.

Farlo.. I don't the fixbox you mean, is it like a trimbox?? Started sailing in1995.

Ola H ... This year ola I bought two FSW boards to try something different. I also got a selection of fins in G10 from the manufacturer. I noticed the smaller were set forward against the head like you mentioned in the last threat but not beyond.
I ride them on waves and jump going out , and occasionally let the board run fast in freeride mode. Being 87 Kg i haven't (yet) felt the boards were not loose enough on the waves and further more I haven't had the spin out problem I used to get with the evo and kombats. I could be due to a surfing history as I load up the rear foot a lot more than i should. It's very hard to break old habits.
You raise some very good points. Being very lazy and always in a rush to get out I find the powerbox excellent as there is no mucking around with that little screw, and I can rig very quickly now.
Maybe S arboard might make them in both, like futura comes in two colours.

Do you use the stock fins or something else?

James
20th January 2009, 11:04 AM
I would definitely be more likely to buy starboard freeride and fsw boards if they used powerbox. The reason my quiver is currently 87l F2, 106l Exocet, and 220l Kona is because they all use powerbox. Also, I don't like the idea of extra drag and cavitation and fin-wiggling with the exposed slot of a US box.

I guess I can see the point of US box for dedicated wave boards, and tuttle / deep-tuttle box for dedicated race boards, but I wish everything else were powerbox.

Farlo
20th January 2009, 04:00 PM
Hi Ulf, last Tiga's conical box is a kind of more open Tuttle with a transversal pin in the front. The head has a slot for the pin and only one hand-screw in the back. Placing or removing the fin is much easier due to the open angle. Trimbox is also an excellent design although feeling "looser" than Tuttle of Power. Both conical or trimbox have only one back screw, thus no interference with footstraps. On some boards you can't use the inner/central footstrap positions because of the front/middle fin screw. I wonder why concepts like conical or trimbox have been given up as these were superior by far, excepted for dedicated wave or race boards as mentioned by James.

Waiting4wind
20th January 2009, 04:33 PM
I have two FSW boards. In that category SB doesn't come into consideration due to the US box.

mim
20th January 2009, 08:34 PM
what does it mean in the cathegory....?

if you have such a board...you ride either waves (than US-box is pretty fine). If you are freestyling, OK.

I would go for freestyle-wave because you can get a board with a volume above 100 liter, that can be used for waves by some heavyweight (like me) or used on a lake for high wind blasting (for strong wind I have PureAcid, US-box and it is just fine).

No experiemne with freestyling, but PWA guys are doing fine on US-box as well.

PS: There is this discussion why not Powerbox, well starboard still is good positioned, because they only have two systems, and the other brands three.
They have US-box (pure wave) and tuttle (racing) as well.

Ciao M.

Jean-Marc
20th January 2009, 10:25 PM
I have had the same kind of experience with both US and Powerbox as Ola above : only the tab of a US fin broke when hitting submerged rocks, with no damage to the board finbox whatsoever. Just bought another US fin at the local shop and I was ready to sail again 1hr later. Even saved the fin by retooling with a new metallic fin tab and a fair sanding job on the fin tip.
By contrast, the Powerbox of a freewave board was severely destroyed while hitting a rock, with substantial damage to the nearby tail and deck sandwich structure. Lost 1 week sailing while waiting for a crappy repair at the local shop.
From this day on, I only use US finboxed waveboards and convertible freewaveboards. End of story.

As for US finboxes being more prone to spinouting, cavitation or ventilation, this is a myth. Unless you're seriously considering speedsailing (US finboxes are indeed a fraction slower than TT or PB), the fin shape, flex, twist and its surface texture (i.e.,scratch-free!) is a much more important issue IMHO.

Finally, current fins used in today's freestyling are so small (i.e., small-scale sideway leverage efforts) that it doesn't hurt them at all whether they are installed in an US box or a Powerbox, unless you hit a submerged rock of course...

Cheers !

JM

Waiting4wind
21st January 2009, 04:52 PM
I think that asking on a starboard forum for preference of US box or Power box may be somewhat biased. I know that most of the people that I sail with that use powerbox (large majority in my location) don't consider Starboard for that reason. I think it's fine that Starboard choose to use the US box and many sailors will appreciate this option, however this will always exclude a notable segment of the market.

nonopr
21st January 2009, 07:26 PM
I think Starboard is right on spot with the fin box in these boards. Up to the 102 using US box is the perfect set up, this board is to be used in Waves up to this size, then for freeride they change the box in the bigger sizes to a tuttle. Plus there are a lot of good fins for freeride out there in US Box and Many more for waves.

Screamer
23rd January 2009, 01:49 AM
I respect Ola's opinion (and I use a Kombat myself), however there are some arguments for the other side:
1. Kombat (or Kode) in sizes of around 105 lit would benefit from a powerbox imho (there are many reports that us box is not very well suited for fins larger than 30cm, for example)
2. Tuneability for riding waves is a valid argument especially for smaller boards in the range. But it may detract from bump/jump mode, which is where these boards are used most imho. Besides, I believe there are several very maneuverable/wavey fsw boards on the market (even more so than the Kombat/Kode), and they don't seem to suffer from powerbox fins in their larger sizes.

nonopr
23rd January 2009, 02:28 AM
I respect Ola's opinion (and I use a Kombat myself), however there are some arguments for the other side:
1. Kombat (or Kode) in sizes of around 105 lit would benefit from a powerbox imho (there are many reports that us box is not very well suited for fins larger than 30cm, for example)
2. Tuneability for riding waves is a valid argument especially for smaller boards in the range. But it may detract from bump/jump mode, which is where these boards are used most imho. Besides, I believe there are several very maneuverable/wavey fsw boards on the market (even more so than the Kombat/Kode), and they don't seem to suffer from powerbox fins in their larger sizes.


Screamer the big Kode have a tuttle box, which is better than a powerbox more fin availbility. The Kode 112 and 122 has tuttle. More freeride oriented, but fast.

Screamer
23rd January 2009, 10:11 AM
As I've said, I think the most "problematic" size is 105, not the smallest nor the largest ones. This "problem" doesn't affect me cause I use K86, but it's what many people think.

Todd Hume
7th April 2009, 11:46 AM
Yo! Yeah interesting debate... there are definitely pros and cons of going Power, Tuttle or US box. Both sides of the argument have been well discussed so far.

I'm in agreement with the crew that back something other than the US box in those mid-sized boards i.e. the Kode 94 and 102. In my mind the Kode is the board that one would turn to when they are after a board that is going to cover as many diciplines, riding styles and sailing conditions as possible.

The light wind waveriders and freestylers are definitely good to go on the Kode 94 and 102, but as it stands these Kodes, with their US boxes, do tend to exclude the allround freeride/bump'n'jumpers. Yes the Kode 102 can be sailed with a 7.5m sail but can one achieve the board's potential lightwind/upwind performance from a 30cm US box fin? And say you were out on that 7.5 and 30cm US box fin and then the wind really picked up. How's the US box gunna handle a large sail in overpowered conditions?.......

Us NZers are also faced with the question of fin availablity. Very few importers stock larger sized US box fins here in Kiwiland. US Box wave fins - Sweet as. Powerbox wave/freestyle/freeride fins - sweet as. Tuttle Freeride/slalom/speed - yup sweet as. A reasonably sized, freeride-ish US box fin? Nope, sorry.

Is it Impossible Engineering to get a board to perform well in the diciplines of light wind wave, freestyle and freeride/bump'n'jump with a single fixed fin position? Perhaps it is?

I guess at the end of the day Starboard has done its research and placed its bets on how they think they are should set up the Kode in order to attract and satisfy as many potential customers as possible.

I'm super stoked on all my past and present Starboards so i guess i'm cool with the fact that i'm not their target market.

Todd

Unregistered
29th June 2010, 10:16 PM
I have always discarted most starboards in my selection in the past right away.
First they where to heavy, which now seems to be solved
Second they still use a 1970's us fin box system.

Soon I will be testing the Kode 103. Sounds like it could be the board for me to replace my JP freestyle 100 2006...? ( a little heavier still, but have to compare early planing, speed, jumping and carving, maybe gain some wave handling! don't do much freestyle ;-)
But not sure yet if I can overcome the US-box....
You are faced with this handicap each time you get the board out of the car or putting it back and it makes you less happy at those moments. Not good.

If Starboard would be using power box, I might have already owned one...
Now I own 6 suitable PB-fins already and 4 board they fit in, 2 used very often.

How easy is it to convert? Or to order with power box from the factory?

About the trim...that is the challange, to put the PowerBox at exactly the right position and maybe finetune the shape for this setup?

PS, in my windsurf history I crashed 2 powerbox fins high speed at stones, breaking them clear away, but never damaged the box itself.

Unregistered
30th June 2010, 05:06 PM
On the topic of fin boxes from starboard I am also dissapointed. Early this year I bought a new quad 86 which I had big issues with the FCS fin system, it simply would not keep the fins in place, I could not believe I was having a problem with a starboard board as every board I have owned has been starboard and I have never had a problem before. I returned the board and got a refund and then bought a 2009 evo 80. I am loving the evo and think it is by far starboards best waveboard to date.

Unregistered
30th June 2010, 06:26 PM
I post ed this message jan 2009. Sept is fast approaching when we get new boards in Australia. It would for three years running now Starboard missed my purchase in this 90-105 range. I still have the Kode 112 ( second board in this size ). being optomistic I haven't placed an order for a new FSW yet. I have a feeling that maybe this year they will be powerbox....oh shit. It was a dream. I better order my JP again.
ULF

Unregistered
30th June 2010, 07:00 PM
I dont think qualities of each system have anything to do with SB`s choice.
I believe Mistral own rights to PB and other manufacturers have to pay royalties for its use.
SB choose not to.Its purely financial.
PB (IMO) is best system for my weight. (Yes weight commes into it)
At 100k my smallest board has enogh depth to use PB; so I use PB.
I agree with earlier posts; a lot of sailors would choose starboard if they used PB in the 90 to 120 litre range of boards.

Unregistered
22nd February 2011, 11:50 AM
You wont believe it the Atom has powerbox.....can the Kode 94 and 102 do the same.
I'll have to watch before ordering my bump and jump board this year.

Sailboarder
22nd February 2011, 10:57 PM
Yes, the Atom was changed from last year to inclued a powerbox.

nakaniko
27th February 2011, 03:00 PM
what a really great new!!! Now I can dream about my future Starboard. Imho a great new for the sport.

heavyweight
28th February 2011, 10:15 PM
Most on this thread can ignore my reply as I am only interested in 2 types of sailing - wave sailing and slalom sailing. B&J just seems like a compromise that doesn't excite me. If there is wind but no waves I'd rather be blasting around at top speed. If there are waves, regardless of wind strength I'd rather be wavesailing. That means for light winds a max sail size of 6.2 and a 105ish L wave board for a 95 kg guy like me to slog and ride - 50% onshore crap and 50% cross shore. Most people (in my opinion) totally over fin their wave boards. I ride a 24 cm MFC 2K fin on that size board and have no problem pointing as high as anyone, even the sailors on quad fins. I regularly hit my fins on the submerged rocks in our line up and I have yet to lose a fin, but every session it seems like someone at our break loses a PB fin - usually not even a strong hit, they are just too weak (IMO).

Since I will only ever use my FSW board for wavesailing, a US box is the best box for me. If Starboard starts making the kode in a powerbox in that size I will have to go custom as Starboard are the only ones still making a big guy waveboard with a US box.

Starboard, please don't change!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nakaniko
1st March 2011, 12:05 AM
Probably you're a better surfer than me, 90 kg and than most of the riders who write here. But there is no doubt that the most part of the riders lives in areas with not so strong winds to use a small sail and a 23 cm fin if they are around 90-100 kg like us they need strong winds. For me according to www.whitewatersurf.de fin explorer (it was suggested to me on this forum some years ago), I should use 23-25 with sideshore winds and sails around 4,5, that for me mean 25 ktn and more. Not so common unfortunately for me.
But thin tail boards for pure wave will always have us box, no question. I have a us AHD Seal, bad conditions, but I've used it only one time (in Romo-Roemoe DK...). But for the 99% common people, at least here, use 5,3-5,8-6,5 or more and the only sistem that allow easy to mount convertible board, I mean ONE board, is imho powerbox.
Yes larger slalom boards, again tuttlebox is the better choice.
I've bought the fantastic Serenity, the deep tuttlebox did not impressed me so much. For first time after pheraphs about 25 powerbox fins I had to sand carefully but for long time all the TU fins I've bought on aftersale (seaweed), included a Select Delta, not the latest an less famous fin manifacturer... One moment before fin head was too wide, one moment after sanding it was even too thin, this because is not conic-shaped on sidewalls like powerbox. So even the smallest difference can make a fin head loose. With PB you can slowly screw up the fin adapting it at the slight differences of the box, and even giving it a little hit for vertical best position...
About risks for the box coming from under sea impacts, also there imho pb can be better, as fin screw can move a little and act like a suspension, on the opposite the front screw in TU react only in the up-down direction, trying to pull away the box.
The next step is a safety screw with the middle mede thinner almost like on the us type screw, with pheraphs a safety fisherman-rope to avoid loosing the fin. This can work also on a TU system, but in a PB system imho can be the solution for most of us common riders.
Obviously imho and imho again.
And finally congratulations to Starboard to be able to change mind and open to consumer suggestions, it's not so common (think about Burton and the 3d-4x4 affair in snowboarding f.e.).

Ola_H
1st March 2011, 10:16 PM
Most on this thread can ignore my reply as I am only interested in 2 types of sailing - wave sailing and slalom sailing. B&J just seems like a compromise that doesn't excite me. If there is wind but no waves I'd rather be blasting around at top speed. If there are waves, regardless of wind strength I'd rather be wavesailing. That means for light winds a max sail size of 6.2 and a 105ish L wave board for a 95 kg guy like me to slog and ride - 50% onshore crap and 50% cross shore. Most people (in my opinion) totally over fin their wave boards. I ride a 24 cm MFC 2K fin on that size board and have no problem pointing as high as anyone, even the sailors on quad fins. I regularly hit my fins on the submerged rocks in our line up and I have yet to lose a fin, but every session it seems like someone at our break loses a PB fin - usually not even a strong hit, they are just too weak (IMO).

Since I will only ever use my FSW board for wavesailing, a US box is the best box for me. If Starboard starts making the kode in a powerbox in that size I will have to go custom as Starboard are the only ones still making a big guy waveboard with a US box.

Starboard, please don't change!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think there are some other too? RRD? And soon there will be one more (Simmer boards).

Ulf
26th March 2011, 08:19 AM
For Heavy weight. JP have the 99 single thruster as well. Perfect for a heavyweight.

SO what to order this coming winter..JP FSW again or Kode.....It all depends on one thing the finbox.

Unregistered
27th March 2011, 04:58 AM
For Heavy weight. JP have the 99 single thruster as well. Perfect for a heavyweight.

SO what to order this coming winter..JP FSW again or Kode.....It all depends on one thing the finbox.

The JP FSW and Kode are quite different in the way they ride and perform so it wouldn't be wise to base your decision on fin type alone.

I do agree on the benefits of power box. I have boards with power tuttle and US box, by far the power box is the most sensible options for FSW and small - medium size boards (excluding wave).