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Unregistered
25th February 2009, 06:22 PM
Wow, where did all the talk about FOD go?

Well, I just want to say

Congratulations rs:x, by showing how brilliant the concept is compared to formula one design. Formula one design seems to have vanished off the face of the earth which is a good sign, as it would most likely have destroyed the formula class.

Let's just say that formula windsurfing is 'different' from the rs:x in many ways, and that the rs:x was first intended to be a formula windsurfer. But due to the isaf policy of racing below 6 knots, the board and sail had to be modified to meet these requirements. I want to thank neilpryde for doing such a brilliant job and hope that they keep up the good work

Comments?

mim
25th February 2009, 09:03 PM
Wow, where did all the talk about FOD go?

Comments?

yep, I have one comment, what are you doing here?
ciao M.

Unregistered
25th February 2009, 11:53 PM
Starboard and the Formula Windsurfing community lost an excelent oportunity to keep FW interesting to the average racer who doesn't want to expent a lot of money in fins to just be a number on the race course. Too bad.
I think that the mix betwen FW (162) and FE (rig and fin) are the best for us now or soon we will not have FW anymore.

gre-969
26th February 2009, 02:07 AM
FW is and will grow in future, the only ones who are loosing are people who thinks like you guys at the the poster 1 & 3 .
FW is a pure racing machine, and this does not take any compromisse and changes backwards.
So please just focus only on to FWOD via RS:X in your discussion and don't get involved with FW wich you don't like anyway, as I understood.

Ken
26th February 2009, 03:18 AM
Formula - What a God send.

For those of us that live in light wind areas, nothing else provides as much fun as a formula board in 10 to 15 knots of wind. I raced longboards for 18 years and thoroughly enjoyed it, but rarely sailed longboards for fun. I have raced formula for over 6 years and love to free sail in winds under 20 knots.

All races that I attend have either formula classes or open classes and are usually very successful. For many of us, formula has filled a significant need. Others could care less as noted above and if you don't like formula, good for you. Clearly it's not for everyone, but some of us thrive on it.

I am not an expert formula racer, but I still get a rush when on a downwind run in 1/2 meter chop in 15 knots of wind on an 11.0, reaching 25 knots of board speed.

Unregistered
26th February 2009, 04:10 AM
gre-969,
Unfortunatelly the facts tell another story, FW fleet is going down in number year after year, just see how many racers were at the 4 or 5 past world championships, each year the number is decreasing.
We love FW? Yes. Is FW growing? NO. We want FW to disapear? NO. So, if nobody do nothing, we will not see much FWers around. Too bad and too sad, but that's the truth.

ceri
26th February 2009, 07:55 PM
Hi, regarding World Championships, venues and attendances.
Venues are not chosen merely to maximise attendances. IFWC is an "international class" , we go to all continents (and i hope we can go to Africa in the near future )- where we can engage a competant and enthusiastic organiser , supporting a vibrant national ( and regional) racing community.

Unregistered
26th February 2009, 10:48 PM
FW is a pure racing machine, and this does not take any compromisse and changes backwards.

untrue

Formula has a huge compromise in its performance. The compromise is that it has maximised its early planing characteristics at the expense of its sub planing performance.
The term no compromise is meaningless in respect of the design of windsurf equipment. It is ALL compromise. No compromise is a bullshit marketing term.

sergio k
26th February 2009, 11:39 PM
the only compromise FW makes is to sail in conditions 6-30 knots,
that's leaves out no-wind/or hurricane like conditions...
untrue

Formula has a huge compromise in its performance. The compromise is that it has maximised its early planing characteristics at the expense of its sub planing performance.
The term no compromise is meaningless in respect of the design of windsurf equipment. It is ALL compromise. No compromise is a bullshit marketing term.

gre-969
27th February 2009, 12:47 AM
FW sailors (competitors) are not intresting in sub planning conditions.
For this exist RS:X, MOD and LONGBOARDS.
The development of FW is not doing compromises in going backwards, the newer equipments works much easier and with better results in speed,up-down winds, handling and control even in very high winds <30 knots or in very low 7k. and believe me I got adict to that sport like many others of my collegs in Greece and many of us never would step backwards to something slower than our Formula boards.

FattyFattyBonBon
27th February 2009, 10:15 PM
ahh, but is rs:x windsurfing is developing in greece with many up and coming windsurfers joining the development programme they have set up. The RS:X have set up a protocol to be presented at the end of the 2012 olympics which sees the equipment being modified to be lighter, and cheaper as well as earlier planing.

It has already focused on media attention, by changing the foil colour of the sail.
However, it seems to me that no outside people i.e freesailers choose the rs:x to sail due to its rigidness and 'harder to plane' concept. It is also more expensive o.O.

The question is- should the olympics revolve around mainstream windsurfers, or a one design concept that tests all talent and skill, rather than equipment?

Without a one- design concept for the olympics, more sponsors and media would compete to get their ideas and products advertised, which would promote windsurfing greatly. I believe that it should mirror the success of the PWA.

Cheers

Unregistered
28th February 2009, 07:00 PM
ahh, but is rs:x windsurfing is developing in greece with many up and coming windsurfers joining the development programme they have set up. The RS:X have set up a protocol to be presented at the end of the 2012 olympics which sees the equipment being modified to be lighter, and cheaper as well as earlier planing.

It has already focused on media attention, by changing the foil colour of the sail.
However, it seems to me that no outside people i.e freesailers choose the rs:x to sail due to its rigidness and 'harder to plane' concept. It is also more expensive o.O.

The question is- should the olympics revolve around mainstream windsurfers, or a one design concept that tests all talent and skill, rather than equipment?

Without a one- design concept for the olympics, more sponsors and media would compete to get their ideas and products advertised, which would promote windsurfing greatly. I believe that it should mirror the success of the PWA.

Cheers


do you think the pwa is succesful?
i think they do the best that they can but they are not running a very big tour and there isnt a huge amount of sponsor interest

mim
3rd March 2009, 07:39 PM
do you think the pwa is succesful?
i think they do the best that they can but they are not running a very big tour and there isnt a huge amount of sponsor interest

Well, lets take a look from the windsurfing point of view...is there any other tour or cup, having stronger sponsor support than PWA...because if it is I don't know it.

We have to face the current status of windsurfing...but RS:X and FW as well has less sponsors than PWA...(this of course does not mean PWA is strongly sponsored, but within windsurfing definitely best of all).
Take sylt with 105 kEuro pricemoney...and the tour as whole over 700keuro...that is not that bad, of course it is not a tennis or soccer.

Ciao Michal.

Unregistered
6th March 2009, 08:05 AM
Where i come from there is NOT alot of racing,windsurfing racing that is.

its 5 hours minimum to get to a regatta.
wind is no guarantee.
so the realilty is , you either sit onshore and wait for wind with a formula board setup, or get on your longboard and race, in any breeze that presents itself.

thats the case for most places in north america.

wiindz
6th March 2009, 11:02 AM
olimpic windsurfing has, and in my openion should always be, a one design class... i sail A LOT in regatas on 420s (also one design), its the trainer bout for the olipic 470, and trust me, having a one design class is far more demanding on the athletes physicaly and taticly then a free for all, its the fairest windsurfing can ever be, and thats the idea behind the olympics no? as for the rsx, and all the one design alympic classes, they are all miracles of engenearing if you ask me, name me one for complete set kit thta can sail 3-30 knts so succesfuly??? one design is the only way to go for the olympics because its the only way you can make sure thatthe sailor is winning the raceand not his or her equipment, which is the whole idea of the olympics..... when that doesnt matter (like in the pwa) the races may be more intertaining with more sponsorships and such but they arent fair enough to be olympic so far.....

Unregistered
6th March 2009, 11:36 AM
[QUOTE=wiindz;30219one design is the only way to go for the olympics because its the only way you can make sure thatthe sailor is winning the raceand not his or her equipment, which is the whole idea of the olympics..... when that doesnt matter (like in the pwa) the races may be more intertaining with more sponsorships and such but they arent fair enough to be olympic so far.....[/QUOTE]

I dont think anybody is arguing that a a one design shouldn't be the olympic windsurfing class rather the equipment should be more modern- like the formula. Thus-the formula one design concept.
The RSX was already obsolete in terms of being a performance windsurfer after its first year. Its failed to attract a fleet outside those vying for an olympic spot- just like most other olympic sailing classes.
The Formula One Design appealed to a broader group of windsurfers - which if chosen, could have grown the sport
Honestly, why would you choose to sail a 45lb hybrid board that doesnt do anything well if youve got the opportunity to race formula, long boards or slalom?

Unregistered
6th March 2009, 03:13 PM
Formula is already dead as a fleet.
It has failed to attract competitors in any numbers
The attempt to get it elected as the olympic board was an attempt to keep it alive.
Shame but true

ceri
6th March 2009, 08:18 PM
quote - "The attempt to get it elected as the olympic board was an attempt to keep it alive.Shame but true ."
This statement could not be further from the truth . FOD was an attempt to keep olympic windsurfing Alive !

wiindz
6th March 2009, 10:23 PM
I dont think anybody is arguing that a a one design shouldn't be the olympic windsurfing class rather the equipment should be more modern- like the formula. Thus-the formula one design concept.
The RSX was already obsolete in terms of being a performance windsurfer after its first year. Its failed to attract a fleet outside those vying for an olympic spot- just like most other olympic sailing classes.
The Formula One Design appealed to a broader group of windsurfers - which if chosen, could have grown the sport
Honestly, why would you choose to sail a 45lb hybrid board that doesnt do anything well if youve got the opportunity to race formula, long boards or slalom?

first off, you cant change the equipment for every olympics, its crazy and nobody would be used to their gear. olympics run on a 4 year cycle, this meens that any set of equipment used for more then one olympic games (should be at least two) is going to become "obsolete as a performance board" because its 8 years behind its compitition! a one design clas has to stay the same over at least 2 olympics, otherwise it kind of defeats the perpouse of having a one design clas in the first place. there is another major problem with the formula boards, they cant slog! off the plane the boards are a nightmere. you need a sail of around 11m-12m to get planning in 5-6knts of wind for most people, none of those people could sail with that same sail in 30knts well. so you have to start changing sails, which is not so one design class anymore right? also, due to the fact that the rsx is heavy, it doesnt fly on you when very overpowered in high wind, which formula boards certainly do.... therefore, formula is a great sport, no questions asked, lots of fun for light wind areas and such, but for the reasons i have stated above, it cant ever be an olympic one design class nor will olympic one desiegn class boards ever be considered "modern designs" due to the fact that the production boards run in cycles of 1-3 years, the olympic boards run in 8-12 year cycles, enough said?;)

Unregistered
6th March 2009, 10:51 PM
FOD was an attempt to keep olympic windsurfing Alive !

pull the other one- its got bells on.

steveC
7th March 2009, 12:44 AM
Frankly, I don't buy the idea that Olympic one design boards should be considered for 8-12 year cycles. First, the fact that the Olympics happen every 4 years, I believe that it certainly gives any athlete ample time to train and understand the character of the board and rig.

Also, I question the idea that any of the Olympic athletes retain original their kit for even the first 4 years, let alone 8 to 12 years. With each new kit, it is very unlikely that they will be the exactly the same in all respects.

I guess another assumption would be that the same athletes would win the slot to represent their country for 8 to 12 years. While it's possible that some might be able to do it, I would tend to doubt that that would be the case.

Given the fact that the RS-X has already been picked for the 2012 Olympics, it's really a done deal. Nevertheless, I seriously question the idea that the committee was obligated to select the RS-X for a second Olympics.

Unregistered
7th March 2009, 02:17 AM
wiindz
your arguments regarding an olympic choice between formula and rsx are null.
formula never proposed to be in the olympics.
it was the formula one design: a one design formula board and fin with 11m rig for men, 9.5 for women
if you compare the formula one design vs the rsx, its clear we missed a major opportunity to upgrade to something more modern while keeping a one design format.
Sure there were small limitations at the low end of the wind range for the FOD but really is it windsurfing when you're shlogging along and doing more pumping than actual sailing??

wiindz
7th March 2009, 06:59 AM
just before anything, olympic one design racers recieve new kits at the start of the olympics and they can sail those, and only those kits in the races, so no, they do not retain the same gear over their entire olympic racing carear. i think that since the RSX was such a succes in the past olympics, they saw no reason to change it...
wiindz
your arguments regarding an olympic choice between formula and rsx are null.
formula never proposed to be in the olympics.
it was the formula one design: a one design formula board and fin with 11m rig for men, 9.5 for women
if you compare the formula one design vs the rsx, its clear we missed a major opportunity to upgrade to something more modern while keeping a one design format.
Sure there were small limitations at the low end of the wind range for the FOD but really is it windsurfing when you're shlogging along and doing more pumping than actual sailing??


first off,
i dont know many men that can sail with a 11m sail in 30knts succesfully (especialy on a FOD that is so light and wide) nor many or any for for that matter that can plane a FOD with a 11m sail in 3 knts. if by any chance you have an exeptionaly light sailor that is able to plane in 3 knts thats great, id like to see him sail in 30knts with the same set up. on the other end of the spectrum, if you have a heavy sailor, that by some chance can hold down a 11m on a FOD in 30knts while racing, id like to see him plane in 3knts. olympic windsurfing is about sailors competing against other sailors, how can they realy do that if they are in a constant struggle to ceep their geer on a plane or in control?

secondly,
there wasnt all that much that was much more modern then the RSX, dont compare todays FOD to the one that was present in 04-05 when the decision was made! formula, and windsurfing for that matter, where not where they are today, you have to take that into acount! on a cycle as long as the olympic classes, the boards are never competitive outside their one design catagory and they dont need to be. boards cant be updated for every olympics because there is an entire racing cuircuit for alll levels and ages and sexs that is bases apon having these boards in the olympics, thats why you have to have a consitent olympic set up so that people training for the olympics know what kind of set up they are going to be sailing.

finaly,
the "small limitations at the low end of the wind range for the FOD" cover the wind strength that many of the olympic competitions end up being held in. the olympics isnt like the pwa tour that can allow itself to schedule races all over the world to find the best conditions possible, many times the olympics host country is not very windy, and the chances of having a windy week to hold the races in are close to nill. an olympic class board MUST be able to sail in almost all prequant wind conditions (3-30knts) and im sorry, the FOD deffinately can not!! if you consider sub planning conditions not windsurfing, thats fine, but untill the olympics does also (very very unlikely to happen any time soon) FOD will not be the olympic one design windsurfing class, its just as simple as that!!

so, you tell me, are my arguments still null unregistered?

p.s. as for the point that somebody brought up before, to the general public (that doesnt windsurf and doesnt know anything about windsurfing (like 95% of the people probobly, if not more) ) the RSX and FOD look almost the same, they certainly will not be able to tell the differance.