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jeroenmarcia
2nd April 2009, 12:14 PM
Kashy fins for more then 1500 euros. delivery time of months. Search the world for a good fin. Put a lot of money in it !!! Whole competition fleets depending on one man building fins at home !!

Is this what we want for formula surfing ? I think it is time to standarise the fins. What's your opinion ?

Unregistered
2nd April 2009, 02:24 PM
hey, GO FORMULA EXPERIENCE CLASS and all your problems are immediately solved.
Marc

raffig
2nd April 2009, 04:59 PM
My opinion is that you should investigate more.... Finworks, VMG Blades, Ifju - much cheaper options and same performance as Kashy.

Unregistered
2nd April 2009, 06:01 PM
Yes, go to formula experience!!! Long life to fe!!!

Unregistered
2nd April 2009, 06:11 PM
They are so many variables when ordering a Kashy that you wouldn't know what to get... just look on the second hand market there are heaps of really good fins!

jeroenmarcia
2nd April 2009, 11:35 PM
hey, GO FORMULA EXPERIENCE CLASS and all your problems are immediately solved.
Marc

What about the problem of competitors. I have never seen anybody windsurfing with Formula experience stuff here. There is also not one Formula Experience event here in The Netherlands.

Where can i look for second hand fins ? Don't seem logic though to sell a good formula fin when you found one !!!

sergio k
3rd April 2009, 12:11 AM
What about the problem of competitors. I have never seen anybody windsurfing with Formula experience stuff here. There is also not one Formula Experience event here in The Netherlands.

Where can i look for second hand fins ? Don't seem logic though to sell a good formula fin when you found one !!!

As it was written in previous comment, there're a lot of variables, board/salor's weight/
sailing conditions/personal preferance/improvements in fins, Kashy and others do
continue with refining the performance of the fins. As for the used market, if you're
around Formula racing, used fins are getting sold/swapped all the time.

Unregistered
3rd April 2009, 12:40 AM
Wait and see, FE is taking the world step by step. There will be races in Russia and other countries around there this year.
There will be some races for FE in USA too.
Go to FE.

Unregistered
3rd April 2009, 02:55 AM
Kashy fins for more then 1500 euros. delivery time of months. Search the world for a good fin. Put a lot of money in it !!! Whole competition fleets depending on one man building fins at home !!

Is this what we want for formula surfing ? I think it is time to standarise the fins. What's your opinion ?

Why do you want to standardize the formula class?
So it can remain stagnant and not evolve!

Remember how it used to be with the standardized R13 debocheit!
The pros were the only ones who had access to any type of developmental fins while the rest of scrambled over a medium that felt like a stiff, only to realize it was the new soft!
At the moment, no one can produce a mass produced standardized fin thats any good.
Until that point arrives, stand in line and get a custom or build one yourself.
The beauty of the formula class is that you can become the next Dave Kashy if you really try.


Next time, dont blame it on your equipment, get a good start and apply tactics and strategy to win the game.

Brett Morris
3rd April 2009, 01:11 PM
No need to hit the panic button.
Look at the FW Sail market. If one company increases their prices or reduces the standard of product then another company moves in, and picks up market share (if their product is up to scratch).
Fins will come back into line soon enough.
PS, i believe that being super comfortable with your kit and sailing like a champion will yeild much better results than buying a new fin.
The possible exception is the very elite / pro sector, where a 2-3% improvement in a piece of kit is the difference between winning.

Unregistered
3rd April 2009, 04:34 PM
Next time, dont blame it on your equipment, get a good start and apply tactics and strategy to win the game.

+1
can't say it in a better way!

michelb
4th April 2009, 02:01 AM
And stop that crazy race to change all your equipment every time that something new appears..... If you are not pro then give your kit a couple of seasons ( 40 or more sessions) and you will find that all is TOW.

Saludos,

Michel

Remi
5th April 2009, 02:41 PM
Hi All,

Do you think that is normal that Formula Windsurfing Class who is a production class can used prototype fins who cost more than the board?

Before the price was under 300€ and right now is a money game by only one who don't care about the futur of the class, who make many racers frustrating and leave the class, do you think is the way to go?

All the best

Unregistered
5th April 2009, 05:59 PM
Hi All,

Do you think that is normal that Formula Windsurfing Class who is a production class can used prototype fins who cost more than the board?

Before the price was under 300€ and right now is a money game by only one who don't care about the futur of the class, who make many racers frustrating and leave the class, do you think is the way to go?

All the best

Nothing wrong with using prototypes in that class. There are others classes using only production gear.

As for the price well the guy or guys making these fins are not stupid, it's that expensive cause there is a market!

The stupidity comes when racers leave the class cause of this. No need to buy the latest etc, once again TOW and getting properly set up with your kit!

Unregistered
5th April 2009, 09:46 PM
Hi All,

Do you think that is normal that Formula Windsurfing Class who is a production class can used prototype fins who cost more than the board?

Before the price was under 300€ and right now is a money game by only one who don't care about the futur of the class, who make many racers frustrating and leave the class, do you think is the way to go?

All the best
I think it's normal for companies like debocheit (and remi who represents them) to be fustrated because other fin makers are taking a market share in what used to be a monopoly.
Remi and others, if you don't like the situation, try developing a better fin.
This is the open market. The formula class voted 2x now to keep fins unrescricted.
Was dell mad because apple made better computers and sold them at a higher price?
Probably but they either choose to respond or lose out

Papounet
6th April 2009, 06:00 PM
FW still a market for Deboichet !!!

I don't think so...

Thousand's of slalom boards to equip, that's a nice one...

Remi
7th April 2009, 12:54 PM
Hi Unregistered,

I think you completelly miss the point, first I am nor represeted Deboichet, but the most important is not here.

We receave many complain already about racers who think that start to be a money game. So the class is not any more accessible. And all the board manufacture are agree on this. If people don't beleave in the class, people will leave it and board manufacture will sell less.

With the crisis today even in Formula 1 and Moto Gp they reduce a lot on tire and many other things. And I think our sport need the same. May be production fin who are deliver with the board will be a good idea, this fin of course will come from Fins compagny at a resonable price to make all racers happy. In any case the best racer will stay the best one but will beleive in the class again and don't leave.

Hope you understand my point now.

All the best

Unregistered
7th April 2009, 06:04 PM
Take a look at prices of the rest of the kit, maybe $1000 for a fin is not out of line.

http://www.mauimalones.com/windsurfingsails.html

Sail ~$1100

http://www.mauimalones.com/windsurfingsails.html
http://www.neilprydemaui.com/items.php?id=218
Boom ~$1300-1400
Mast ~$1000 -1200

http://www.mauimalones.com/formulaboards.html
Board ~$2000


Other
harness ~$150
Wetsuit ~$400
mast base ~$100
UJ ~$75
Travel to an event and registration and lodging ???

1 kit with no spares, no fin, no event

over $6000

and who has one mast/boom/sail... many guys have more than one board.

FE is the way to go if you want to save some money.

formula still rocks my world

mim
7th April 2009, 11:18 PM
Take a look at prices of the rest of the kit, maybe $1000 for a fin is not out of line.

http://www.mauimalones.com/windsurfingsails.html

Sail ~$1100

http://www.mauimalones.com/windsurfingsails.html
http://www.neilprydemaui.com/items.php?id=218
Boom ~$1300-1400
Mast ~$1000 -1200

http://www.mauimalones.com/formulaboards.html
Board ~$2000


Other
harness ~$150
Wetsuit ~$400
mast base ~$100
UJ ~$75
Travel to an event and registration and lodging ???

1 kit with no spares, no fin, no event

over $6000

and who has one mast/boom/sail... many guys have more than one board.

FE is the way to go if you want to save some money.

formula still rocks my world


Wow, you come from a very expensive place, because the prices you are mentioning are way smaller in fact...and on the other side, do you know how much costs a new Kashi (I think the latest priec is around 1500Euro, that would make 2200 USD).

let's be honest, some fins for FW are extremely expensive compared to what we all are used to from slalom and freeride...(I means price ration between the rest of the gear and the fin).

But i do not say that one fin solution is good, the idea with one design was nice, but i would mind to have both class existing in the same time (FW and FOD).

Ciao Michal.

pfaffi
8th April 2009, 12:33 AM
Hi jerorenmarcia!
Dont make to much secret and mystic for that Kashy fins. In our region people who own one/more are defenitely at the same level as before on Debos or Huricans or....
Formula sucess is driven by a view factors: go for much more training, find best trim and setup of your stuff with your friends, look for tactics, train starting......
(Our races are won from people who know their stuff like nothing else, spend much much time on water and are superb in tactics)
br pfaffi

michelb
8th April 2009, 04:35 AM
+1 nice words Peter.

Unregistered
9th April 2009, 02:25 AM
Hi Unregistered,

I think you completelly miss the point, first I am nor represeted Deboichet, but the most important is not here.

We receave many complain already about racers who think that start to be a money game. So the class is not any more accessible. And all the board manufacture are agree on this. If people don't beleave in the class, people will leave it and board manufacture will sell less.

With the crisis today even in Formula 1 and Moto Gp they reduce a lot on tire and many other things. And I think our sport need the same. May be production fin who are deliver with the board will be a good idea, this fin of course will come from Fins compagny at a resonable price to make all racers happy. In any case the best racer will stay the best one but will beleive in the class again and don't leave.

Hope you understand my point now.

All the best

I see your point, but you forget to mention, windsurfing always has been a money game for those who compete- even in one design and developmental one design classes! Someone will always have a better sail or better fin but the great thing about the formula class is you can still get out there and kick their ass on your own custom fin or standard debocheit fin with good tactics and fitness.
Secondly, fin makers still cant produce a decent mass produced fin compared to the custom fins. Until they do, why should we settle for something inferior to the fins we are using now.
The formula class is an open development class which supports and encourages the development of fw boards, fins, sails, mast and booms. There's a reason we all arnt racing on a Formula 158 and aluminum booms. The sport- especially our discipline of formula has rapidly developed over the past few years.
We race in this class because we like to push the envelope of design not be limited by it

Unregistered
9th April 2009, 02:33 AM
Hi Unregistered,

I think you completelly miss the point, first I am nor represeted Deboichet, but the most important is not here.

We receave many complain already about racers who think that start to be a money game. So the class is not any more accessible. And all the board manufacture are agree on this. If people don't beleave in the class, people will leave it and board manufacture will sell less.

With the crisis today even in Formula 1 and Moto Gp they reduce a lot on tire and many other things. And I think our sport need the same. May be production fin who are deliver with the board will be a good idea, this fin of course will come from Fins compagny at a resonable price to make all racers happy. In any case the best racer will stay the best one but will beleive in the class again and don't leave.

Hope you understand my point now.

All the best

If this is the case, why doesnt starboard promote the Formula One design concept more??
It's the perfect opportunity to race alongside the formula class and limit the cost of entry AND not impose limitations to the formula class.
It seems like you had a good thing going and people were encouraged but you got dissed as the Olympic choice for 2012 and lost all your steam.
Promoting the FOD class would essentially make it a stronger competitor for the next Olympic cycle if the class develops and proves as popular as starboard thinks it will.

Unregistered
9th April 2009, 11:08 PM
Hi Unregistered,

May be production fin who are deliver with the board will be a good idea, this fin of course will come from Fins compagny at a resonable price to make all racers happy.
All the best

Im not sure you will make any formula windsurfer happy delivering them a drake 70 cm fin or even any fin form debocheit for that matter!
If people dont want to spend the money for a decent fin, then fine- let them race in the formula class with what ever fin they want but dont force them to downgrade to make the class more accessible!

michelb
10th April 2009, 12:33 AM
What do you Think about this fin for a F161:

Select R03 DC Wide Medium

Michel

Remi
10th April 2009, 10:07 AM
Hi Unregistered,

If we folow your idea so what you will say if a board is at 3500€ just beacause is better?

Formula is a production class if you compare to F1 and Moto Gp who are full prototype and they put a lot of restriction to make everybodies happy. And at the end the racers are still there. Righ now is really not the case with a lot of complain about fins.

All the best

Unregistered
10th April 2009, 10:57 AM
Remi

You miss the point- maybe because of your English or your affiliation with Debo and Starboard.
The custom board builders like Richard Green among many others, were put out of the formula class business due to the exact situation you are voting for. Make everything the same - and we will all be robots before long. Then there will be less and less development with no competition among small businesses.
Why are you in the business Remi?

Unregistered
10th April 2009, 11:27 AM
yes, there are lot's of contradictions in formula. the idea of everyone competing on similar equipment was the original idea which got hi jacked by the production companies to force people to use their gear even when a "hand made custom" would fit all the criteria including weight (my Richard Greene formula board was awesome in it's day....). And today certain board manufacturers provide their top team riders with boards that have a very different bottom than what the public can buy..........

The fin thing is interesting........ the high end custom guys definitely produce some fins which can do some amazing things, but some of the other builders fins in the right hands or feet, can do just as well.................

The nice thing to focus on is that formula gear allows extremely high perfomance racing and access to a high level of sailing in an extremely wide range of conditions. And for those that do not want to have the latest kit, gear from one or two years ago can be purchased for an extremely reasonable cost, allowing them entree to true high performance windsurfing in real world conditions, getting them out on the water for much more time than if they bought a 85 liter wave board and 5.0 sail that they would only use a few times a year......$1500 board, $1000 for a rig all carbon used 3 times a month in most places that don't see 20 knots too often = $69 a day. $750 used Formula, 2 used sails $800 one mast $400, $500 used boom that can be used 3 days a week = $17 per day!

Unregistered
10th April 2009, 06:47 PM
Hi Unregistered,

If we folow your idea so what you will say if a board is at 3500€ just beacause is better?

Formula is a production class if you compare to F1 and Moto Gp who are full prototype and they put a lot of restriction to make everybodies happy. And at the end the racers are still there. Righ now is really not the case with a lot of complain about fins.

All the best

Remi,

You are missing the point and useless to compare with F1 and GP where this is high tech and R&D day in and out.

The guys behind the really really expensive fins are probably the ones pushing the techniologie and design as they need an edge on the well established brands (Deboichet, Select and others) to get in the market. So in the end they are helping the class...

And people walking out of the Formula class cause of this, is absolutely rubish, if they need such an expensive fin for their level this is cause they are at the top and top racers already get huge discount on their kit (I do not know ANYONE paying full retail price for the latest gear).

Setting a price tag on fins will only put these guys out of business as this is more a part time/job on the side and not sure you can do that in an open market!!!

Unregistered, this is very low blow to talk about Remi's english level.

Unregistered
11th April 2009, 02:25 AM
Hi Unregistered,
If we folow your idea so what you will say if a board is at 3500€ just beacause is better?

If you make the fastest formula board and demands exceeds supply- Im sure you will find people to buy it for 3500€!

Yes, people will always complain about the expense of the sport, but why do you want to dumb it down to attract more people.

What happened to the FOD class, why arnt you promoting it more as a cheaper alternative to formula that you can race along side the formula class with?

Remi
12th April 2009, 07:56 AM
Hi Unregistered,

Yes we will found people to buy it even at 5000€, but in the end that will kill the class for sure!!
All the board manufactures are agree to change something about the fins to keep people in the class that is not the case right now.
Just open your mind and think about the Futur of the Class, not for a limited group of hi level racer or rich man.

All the best

Unregistered
12th April 2009, 09:44 PM
So Remi

What will happen to control fins construction?

Only one manufacture- or two?

Who will get this opportunity?
Cobra? Pryde?

The same old story-
Cheap labor- cheap product.
The fastest guy will have bought 20 fins in the end, and finds the best one.
Then he has still spent all the money and the cheap labor is still employed by the large corporation , while the advanced technology suffers. and the small business suffers
Anyway, why ask us?
You and the board manufactures have already made up your minds.

Remember when Pryde was chosen as the only manufacture of the Olympic boards
That sure made a lot of people happy!!

Unregistered
13th April 2009, 04:57 AM
"windsurfing always has been a money game for those who compete- even in one design and developmental one design classes!"

Actually, there's some very cheap boards at the front of some one design fleets; less than $1000 will buy some recent national-title winning boards, fully equipped and ready to win for another few years. That's definitely not a money race.

Unregistered
13th April 2009, 04:58 AM
Thank you Remi, bad english or not, the signal is totally clear and if the board manufactorers agreed in a pricelevel or type of fins, then there will be a future for the class.

Dont forget, there are sailors, there are using the standard drake fins, with fine results at nationals levels, and passing lots of sailors with very very expensive fins, it is not all about the fins.

Unregistered
13th April 2009, 07:06 AM
So Remi

What will happen to control fins construction?

Only one manufacture- or two?

Who will get this opportunity?
Cobra? Pryde?

The same old story-
Cheap labor- cheap product.
The fastest guy will have bought 20 fins in the end, and finds the best one.
Then he has still spent all the money and the cheap labor is still employed by the large corporation , while the advanced technology suffers. and the small business suffers
Anyway, why ask us?
You and the board manufactures have already made up your minds.

Remember when Pryde was chosen as the only manufacture of the Olympic boards
That sure made a lot of people happy!!

+1

Control the fin and I am out of the racing scene. I am interested in that class as you can tune YOUR kit (sail, board and fin) to your specific sailing style.

Once you control the fin you can do the same for the rest of the equipment, sails prices are also going through the roof. NP is 40% more expensive than TR5 in some sizes...

Or are you gonna ask us to all race on Severne!!!!

Remi
13th April 2009, 11:23 AM
Hi All,

Before the price of the fin increase like hell, we never receave complain about fins. Their is different good Fins compagny who can produce enough good fins at a inexpensive price to make everybodies happy, top racers and national racers.

Their is not soo mcuh differents price in sails compare to fins, no I am not trying to make a one design class, just try to found the best way to keep the racers in the class.

All your comments are wellcome

All the best

Unregistered
13th April 2009, 11:54 AM
Hi All,

Before the price of the fin increase like hell, we never receave complain about fins. Their is different good Fins compagny who can produce enough good fins at a inexpensive price to make everybodies happy, top racers and national racers.

Their is not soo mcuh differents price in sails compare to fins, no I am not trying to make a one design class, just try to found the best way to keep the racers in the class.

All your comments are wellcome

All the best

Again, why not promote the formula one design or this purpose?
Dont ruin the formula class by imposing technological limitations.
When you asked the board manufacters- did that only include starboard or the defuct f2, how about the small timers like lorch and ML?

Unregistered
13th April 2009, 09:54 PM
Hi All,
Their is different good Fins compagny who can produce enough good fins at a inexpensive price to make everybodies happy, top racers and national racers.
All the best
Ok, I'll bite- who is this different fin company that can produce good fins at inexpensive prices that will make everbodies happy
Why have we not seen them before?
Where are their results?
What makes it different that the previous generation of mass produced fins which sailors needed to buy 10 fins to find 1 or 2 good fins.
This is still the case with the RSX.
Cobra mass produces the 'vector designed fin' which is crap to begin with given the tolerance, they come out all over the place.

Unregistered
14th April 2009, 01:42 AM
Nobody is forcing people to buy expensive fins!
This doesn't seem to be an issue expect for the people who believe they need an expensive fin.
They can compete just as well with all the other alternatives available.
If you limit the fin in the formula class, it will kill the smaller fin makers like Ifju, VMG, F4, Finworks, and Hurricane that offer reasonable alternatives to Kashy fins.

sergio k
14th April 2009, 05:52 AM
Remi, you're missing the point , what people want in FW is the continued development,
Kashy's fins performed BETTER, that's why we want them, that's why few others jumped into the development, since bigger fin brands didn't react. I, for one, don't want to be at the mercy of one fin brand(or board/sail brand), and market will adjust the price of the fins in time, there're now other less costly fins, used fins, 'sky is not falling...' At the end, the results at the races has a lot more to do with the sailor.
Bottom line, custom fins will not be what could kill the class, but additional restrictions WILL kill a small custom manufacturer and some interesting develoment. If you want things cheap, just keep pushing for FWOD, although most formula guys I've talked to were not crazy about the idea, personally I thought it was a good thing for Olympics and our sport.

Unregistered
14th April 2009, 07:07 AM
If you take away the small manufacturers, you take away all the innovation. Where would starboard, F2, neil pryde, fanatic and all the others steal all that "INNOVATION" from? The larger companies are lucky that IP protection is not affordable for the smaller companies.

Its not easy to teach someone to make a good fin. So the good fins are expensive because they have to be hand made and finished by someone who really knows what they are doing.

If you have a problem with the cost of fins, then why dont you put something back into the sport rather than leaching it away. Learn how to make quality fins. Get off your ass and make it happen like some other guys did, and are finally getting some reward for their efforts. Or should the class association just bend over to the mass producers and kill off innovation (and the class).

Unregistered
14th April 2009, 08:08 AM
Sorry Remi but I think you got it all wrong on the fin front! The general feeling I get reading this thread is people not wanting things to change, so you might be on your own...

And this is probably not the best thing to do from a Deb representative!! Deb has probably not done their R&D homework and now other brands are leading the Formula scene even if Deb still has some great fins.

After all there is only one fin maker that requests outrageoulsy high prices, all others are roughly at the same price and so far there is a conscencus saying that we do not need these really expensive fins to perform well (tactics, TOW etc...)

I think everything has been said so take the right decision from there!

Unregistered
14th April 2009, 08:24 AM
Kashy recently quoted 3 prices

list one $800 get in line behind guys who realized he was on to something 2 years ago and wait ~3 years
list 2 $1400 get in line and wait 5 to 9 month
list 3 $1800 get an order in and wait 2-3 months

Outrageous??

SIN_0
14th April 2009, 10:07 AM
hi guys,

i'm a formula fan, although i agree it is rather expensive to acquire each items, but the investment is worth it.
i get more water time whenever i'm not at the office, more productive.

in my opinion, i will just get the rather the best gear which is supposed to last me at least 2 racing seasons. maximum milage for my $.

as regard to the fin arguements, i'm moving away from Debochiet fins.(owner of r16. 19 and 20), i find they are rather slow to market competitive fins and besides, Deb fins are 2nd expensive to Kashy (IMO).
i'm using VMG fins (USD750<) which i can feedback and interact with the shaper, Chris Ting of AUS.
prompt attention is given on my feedbacks inorder to ride the best from the fin.
infact, i get to close on the gap on my friendly 'nemesis' who is on the USD1800 Kashy.

as for recent Remi 'bashing', i think beside Remi, there are other people to 'bash' too...namely Kashly, Exocet, Vapor, Debochiet, Neil Pryde (main culprit ex-$$$) etc....so why corner only Remi ?

there are endless issues, if we can just iron it all out, Formula may just pick again, just like early 2000s.

Please !!!! bring down the cost...

Happy sailing to all

Unregistered
14th April 2009, 11:10 AM
hi guys,

as for recent Remi 'bashing', i think beside Remi, there are other people to 'bash' too...namely Kashly, Exocet, Vapor, Debochiet, Neil Pryde (main culprit ex-$$$) etc....so why corner only Remi ?


My friend you forgot Starboard as well I believe or is it cheaper than the rest of the mentioned brands???

I think Remi is the one who brought up the subject so people are just arguing back and forth on the topic that's all.

Unregistered
14th April 2009, 12:52 PM
If you take away the small manufacturers, you take away all the innovation. Where would starboard, F2, neil pryde, fanatic and all the others steal all that "INNOVATION" from? The larger companies are lucky that IP protection is not affordable for the smaller companies.

Its not easy to teach someone to make a good fin. So the good fins are expensive because they have to be hand made and finished by someone who really knows what they are doing.

If you have a problem with the cost of fins, then why dont you put something back into the sport rather than leaching it away. Learn how to make quality fins. Get off your ass and make it happen like some other guys did, and are finally getting some reward for their efforts. Or should the class association just bend over to the mass producers and kill off innovation (and the class).
You pay for what you get.
How about publishing the amount per hour you pay the local thais to mass produce the starboard! Do you think that is a living wage? How about the people that produce our sails in china and Sri lanke. I'd rather give my $ to a master craftsman like Dave Kashy than see it be explored by slave labor.

nonopr
14th April 2009, 02:02 PM
I think what the Formula board manufacturers should do is to include in the price a fin develop specificly for that board they produce. If starboard spens less time using Deboichet fins and concentrate on building their our fin and testing it a lot more before thwy go to production they will have a great advantage and will make the sport more accessible to everyone. I have seen videos of the deboichet stock they use for testing their boards and they spend a lot of money buying fins. It would be a lot more cost effective if they design and produce a real good fin for their boards, this goes to all the companies that spend time designing a formula board and they just trying every fin in the market they can buy until they find one that works, it has become a ridiculous category. This was supposed to be a production class, but at the end they are spending more money in a fin that is not production that they should not be allow to race anymore. Either kill the formula class or get it straight and in the same level to everyone including those who do not have sponsors.
Kashy/Deboichet and all others should get a real job work for NASA or the russian space dept, They are one of the reasons the sport of fomula racing no longer is an olympic contender.

Unregistered
14th April 2009, 11:12 PM
The last few post seem to sum it up pretty well.
The custom fin makers are doing their r&d and getting feedback from the riders and making faster fins.
No one seems to have a problem with Ross riding a custom gaastra technora sail all last season. And now thats its available, it cost nearly 200 euros more than the stock sail.
Just like the kashy's, if there wasn't a market for them,they wouldn't be able to charge so much. Gaastra used to do this with the KP Pro version as well.
The results are better and faster sails but obviously there is some tradeoff in terms of price.
More expensive materials and better craftsmanship are obviously going to demand a higher price. Weather you choose to pay this or not is not the issue. The issue is choice.
You have many fins to choose from now depending on how much you want to spend.
Remi's suggestion's would limit your choice to 1 fin manufacture.
Who's to say in a year, why they dont keep raising their prices. What's stopping them?
With no competition, there is no innovation.
We live in a free market society.
If your not happy about the price of milk at the supermarket, you either find alternatives or get your own cow.
Remi- its time you put your your words into action.
Design us a fin that is cheaper and faster than the kashys fins but dont use an unfair advantage by creating a limitation in the formula class to make your company the sole provider.

michelb
14th April 2009, 11:39 PM
Where we can see the pictures of the technora version of Vapor?

Saludos,

Unregistered
15th April 2009, 03:03 AM
Well guys, keep it expensive as it is and we know what's going to happen, no more Formula Windsurfing very soon. Wait and see the number of sailors in the next world championship.

Unregistered
15th April 2009, 04:45 AM
Well guys, keep it expensive as it is and we know what's going to happen, no more Formula Windsurfing very soon. Wait and see the number of sailors in the next world championship.
Formula windsurfing is not expensive at all- only if you choose to make it so!
Nobody is forcing you to buy expensive fins.
There are alternatives like VMG, IFJU, Finworks, Delect and Hurricane.
The boards are now in their 2nd season of use for most of the fleet.
Boom and mast typically last 2-3 seasons (NP being the exception)
Good tactics, tuning your kit and time on the water will get you further than any expensive fin!
Yes we'll probably see less people at the worlds this year but that's due to a global recession and people having less disposable income.

Unregistered
15th April 2009, 05:59 AM
Yeah right, use 2 years old gear and you'll be only a number on the race course. If you want to be competitive you must have new gear almost every year.

Unregistered
15th April 2009, 06:18 AM
Yeah right, use 2 years old gear and you'll be only a number on the race course. If you want to be competitive you must have new gear almost every year.

Check the results and equipment list from last years world championship.
Wojtek won the event on a starboard 160- a 2 year old design as well as 2007 NP sails from the previous year.
How'd he do this- he died in his equipment.
There were 11 160's at the event and 13 161's

sergio k
15th April 2009, 07:18 AM
Yeah right, use 2 years old gear and you'll be only a number on the race course. If you want to be competitive you must have new gear almost every year.

You really don't know what you're talking about, last few FW events, guys on 160 +
2 year old sails and in one case old Deb. fin won or came in within top 2...

Papounet
15th April 2009, 09:15 PM
Yeah right, use 2 years old gear and you'll be only a number on the race course. If you want to be competitive you must have new gear almost every year.
The only thing to change since 2 or 3 years, is the light wind fin...
A new génération, "with little to no ‘geometric twist’ and torsionally stiff" and a lot of power...

http://www.carbonsugar.com/design/everything-you-should-know-about-fw-fins/

http://www.carbonsugar.com/design/the-ultimate-fw-board-tuning-guide/


And you can read those marvellous things...

No doubt, with the ‘flat’ characteristics this board has when it sails makes fin choice a lot more critical then previous Starboard boards. The F162 requires an extremely powerful fin to help rail the board and lift the nose to get the board to ‘free up’ and stop sticking to the water. Don’t mistake a powerful fin for simply just an ‘upright’ fin; these are two different things. What the board requires is a powerful fin and the best way to do this is to try fins with little to no ‘geometric twist’ and torsionally stiff. The best fins showing these characteristics are the Kashy XS/XXS, VMG Blades ‘K’ model and Hurricane FRB6 with ‘0′ twist. During testing this board we found the Deboichet R20 not powerful enough to keep the nose of the board lifting.

Hi All,

The R20 is one of the best fins on the F162 and give a different drive a bit more flater. Thanks to be patient for Deboichet, it's a small manufacture

All the best

Hi Fin66,

You must try the R20 rake + 6cm, this fin will help you up wind and will deliver and excellent confort and speed down wind with less effort.

All the best

Unregistered
16th April 2009, 03:38 PM
Manufacturing to tolerances capable of producing practically equal performance on the race course is the problem with one design classes. You might notice the top riders try several boards before choosing one to race on. It makes a bigger difference than most people think. Maybe some choose older boards because the new ones they got were more bent and therefore not as good.

Would you rather buy one good piece of gear that you know is going to be competitive, or 10 crappily built ones to find one thats competitive? Thats how the production classes are at the moment- the teamriders get first pick of the crop. The rest have to pay $ to ensure you have good kit unless you are one of the favourites getting the easy ride.

Unregistered
16th April 2009, 10:48 PM
For all you bashing kashy,

I know the man personally, and he is constantly working his ass off, typically waking up between 4 and 5 am everyday to produce these fins. Oh ya, and then going to his real job, coming home, and staying up late into the night working on fins some more.He makes every single one of them, one at a time, with great care being put into the tedious process. You truly get every penny you pay for. It is supply and demand, the supply is low, the demand is high he has no choice but to increase the price. If you do not want to pay and wait, you should get a different fin, don't complain about it. If you want the very best of quality, then be prepared to pay the price and wait. He works to hard to charge any less, it wouldn't be worth his time otherwise. It takes a special person to do what he does, and i'd like to see everyone complaining about him step into his shoes, and you probably would understand.

Unregistered
16th April 2009, 11:14 PM
For all you bashing kashy,

I know the man personally, and he is constantly working his ass off, typically waking up between 4 and 5 am everyday to produce these fins. Oh ya, and then going to his real job, coming home, and staying up late into the night working on fins some more.He makes every single one of them, one at a time, with great care being put into the tedious process. You truly get every penny you pay for. It is supply and demand, the supply is low, the demand is high he has no choice but to increase the price. If you do not want to pay and wait, you should get a different fin, don't complain about it. If you want the very best of quality, then be prepared to pay the price and wait. He works to hard to charge any less, it wouldn't be worth his time otherwise. It takes a special person to do what he does, and i'd like to see everyone complaining about him step into his shoes, and you probably would understand.
Well said!

Polis
17th April 2009, 11:42 AM
Well said!

well said indeed...

if u want the best and lightest board, pay good money to Starboard to make u a customise production board.
if u want the best of the best, prepare to pay for everything...


money talks....even in Formula windsurfing or Formula One

Unregistered
17th April 2009, 01:17 PM
For all you bashing kashy,

I know the man personally, and he is constantly working his ass off, typically waking up between 4 and 5 am everyday to produce these fins. Oh ya, and then going to his real job, coming home, and staying up late into the night working on fins some more.He makes every single one of them, one at a time, with great care being put into the tedious process. You truly get every penny you pay for. It is supply and demand, the supply is low, the demand is high he has no choice but to increase the price. If you do not want to pay and wait, you should get a different fin, don't complain about it. If you want the very best of quality, then be prepared to pay the price and wait. He works to hard to charge any less, it wouldn't be worth his time otherwise. It takes a special person to do what he does, and i'd like to see everyone complaining about him step into his shoes, and you probably would understand.

I almost got a tissue out... Maybe Nasa does not pay well!
Others do top of the range fins and some make a living out of it and do not charge anywhere near as much... probably their time is not worth much!

It is just a fact that Kashy is THE most expensive out there, no bashing or anything just a number... rather large!!

Unregistered
17th April 2009, 03:50 PM
"Manufacturing to tolerances capable of producing practically equal performance on the race course is the problem with one design classes. You might notice the top riders try several boards before choosing one to race on. It makes a bigger difference than most people think. Maybe some choose older boards because the new ones they got were more bent and therefore not as good.

Would you rather buy one good piece of gear that you know is going to be competitive, or 10 crappily built ones to find one thats competitive? Thats how the production classes are at the moment- the teamriders get first pick of the crop. The rest have to pay $ to ensure you have good kit unless you are one of the favourites getting the easy ride."

Really? Where's the proof?

This is something we often see repeated, but never - not once - have I ever seen anyone's name attached to these rumours. Never have I seen a top sailor show any sign that they go out and buy all this gear to test, although I do know a bunch of top sailors who certainly do NOT go out and buy a whole lot of gear.

Certainly, in my national OD class I know 100% that it's a fact that the top sailors do NOT all go out and buy 10 sets of gear and test them.

The other thing that no one ever seems to actually prove is that non-OD are more uniform. Okay, so we go out an buy top-of-the-line non-OD gear - where is the proof that it's any more consistent than the OD stuff? If we can get a dud OD board, why can't we get a dud non-OD board?

Unregistered
17th April 2009, 10:12 PM
I almost got a tissue out... Maybe Nasa does not pay well!
Others do top of the range fins and some make a living out of it and do not charge anywhere near as much... probably their time is not worth much!

It is just a fact that Kashy is THE most expensive out there, no bashing or anything just a number... rather large!!

Your right- kashy's are the most expensive due to their demand.
No other fin makers has a 2 year waiting list and sailors offering them 1.5x the price of a normal order fin for super rush delivery.
No other used fins are selling for 1000 euros.
Id partly put the blame on the consumer who fuels the demand.
Without them, kashy would have all the time in the world.
Its time we forgot the hype and allure of new gear and focused on making the gear we have go fast.

Unregistered
17th April 2009, 11:41 PM
So I guess the last two posters are in favor of restricting the whole racing business of windsurfing to one manufacturing conglomerate using cheap labor for a not so cheap price??

Remi
18th April 2009, 06:29 AM
Hi All,

What you think about this :

Beacause of the demand is very high the price come from around 300€ to 1500€ so something like 5 times more expensive

Imagine now that the demand came also very high for one board for 2010, will you accept to buy it at 8500€ to get it fast????

And dou you think that will be good for the Class???

All the best

Unregistered
18th April 2009, 11:44 AM
the story of top riders trying several boards and fins before choosing in a restricted class is not just in windsurfing. Its common at top level of any "production class" racing.

The top riders of FW and slalom do not need to buy 10 boards. They simply go to the factory as part of "team R&D", grab a straight edge, and pick the best looking ones out of the production line. There is a skill involved in choosing the boards- you have to know what you are looking for. Then they sell off the spare ones after they sail them a few times (and then pick the best ones) as "surplus to requirement".

Has anyone bought a current model FW board with very little use from a teamrider? If so, why were they really selling it? Why did they have a spare current model board or 3 in the first place?

I dont see a problem with this at all. Its working within the rules to maximise chances of winning. The racers buying their gear arent usually the ones battling for podium places so the differences in performance are determined by skill more than equipment differences.

MEF
18th April 2009, 06:11 PM
There is one fact: If you leave something without any rules, it will probably end up disasterous.
That was the case of PBA and PWA, and perhaps that was the case even of our own economic models these last decades...
Perhaps it has something to do with human nature but its not the place to go further into it.
Where Formula would have been without ANY rules???
I 'm affraid Remi is right.
Boards of 5000 euro, rigs of another 5.000 and fins of 1.500!
The "heartbreaking" story of Dave working in the dawn (sorry Dave, nothing against you but...) it could only be a joke.
How many kids are working overnight with no food and water, time to wake up and at least not advirtise our own prosperity....
The fin story is definately not going well without any limitation.
Ask the real athletes how they feel when they are beaten by someone who spend 5.000 euro in fins.
What do do?
I 'm just an athlete and i dont really know.
But there must be a way, if we want this class to survive.

Unregistered
18th April 2009, 08:41 PM
I've never seen so many people whine about something so inconsequential.
No one is forcing you to buy a €1500 fin.
It's an option.
One of many.
Get over yourslves.
Be glad you have a choice.

Unregistered
18th April 2009, 08:59 PM
Poster 63, you're completely wrong in your guesses.

Post 61 had nothing about restricting anyone. It was all about allowing those who like OD to sail OD, without people from other classes trying to rubbish OD classes.

It's all about allowing people to have different tastes and respecting those different tastes.

And at least one of the OD boards referred to in post 61 is built in a country where the minimum wage is higher than that of France, the Netherlands or Switzerland.

Post 65, you're right, the STORY of top riders trying lots of different gear is common. But that doesn't mean that it's the truth. And even if some riders do it, it doesn't mean that it's necessary.

It is a definite fact that in (for example) the two "production classes" I race in, you can be the state or national champion around here without trying lots of different gear to select the best.

Unregistered
18th April 2009, 11:18 PM
Solution for all that stratosphere gear price: Sail Formula Experience, same fun for 1/3 of the price.

raffig
19th April 2009, 04:30 AM
Sorry, but all the arguments about why overpriced fins could kill Formula Class seem rather ridiculous to me... I have competed quite a few years in amateur cycling and triathlon and you just cannot imagine how much money people spend on titanium components, carbon wheels, etc. Literally thousands of euros goes on every bike, and much of the upgrades are just for aesthetic reasons!

I am not trying to justify spending 1500 Euros in a fin, but... so what? The essence of FW is high-performance to its maximum level, and all riders - amateurs and pros -will always want what works best for their gear.

Rafa

nonopr
19th April 2009, 05:23 AM
Sorry, but all the arguments about why overpriced fins could kill Formula Class seem rather ridiculous to me... I have competed quite a few years in amateur cycling and triathlon and you just cannot imagine how much money people spend on titanium components, carbon wheels, etc. Literally thousands of euros goes on every bike, and much of the upgrades are just for aesthetic reasons!

I am not trying to justify spending 1500 Euros in a fin, but... so what? The essence of FW is high-performance to its maximum level, and all riders - amateurs and pros -will always want what works best for their gear.

Rafa

You are wrong about the reason for formula racing. Originaly was to be able to have all people is almost the same equipment and the sailor was the key element in the scene.
Still is as the rules still the same 1 board up to a maximum of 100cm wide and and just 3 sails for each event same for the fin.
So this category of windsurfing is not unfair to anyone that wants to joint it. The only way it can if ever be an olympic category.

raffig
19th April 2009, 06:02 AM
The only way it can if ever be an olympic category.

Ok, that´s FOD, fair enough, I have nothing against it being olympic. But so far FW is an open discipline, and there are great differences among board, sails and fin manufacturers, each one striving for maximum performance. What´s wrong with that? Is that "unfair" to people?

Seems that many people are making a row at this Kashy business, but what about NP? Sails and gear about 40% more expensive than the other brands, with a high rate of mast breakage and ridiculous warranty conditions during many years, but still in great demand and...has it "killed" Formula? I don´t think so....

Rafa

Unregistered
19th April 2009, 01:09 PM
Remi or others @ starboard
It seems the FOD would be a great solution to those that don't want the latest gear.
What are you doing to promote the FOD class?

Unregistered
19th April 2009, 06:40 PM
"What are you doing to promote the FOD class? "
NOTHING, They don't care about FOD since the class wasn't selected for the 2012 OG.

Unregistered
22nd April 2009, 07:20 AM
"What are you doing to promote the FOD class? "
NOTHING, They don't care about FOD since the class wasn't selected for the 2012 OG.

Remi
Now's your chance to promote the FOD.
The world is listening.
You've spoken against the Formula class cost but havnt suggested anything other than a monopoly for 1 lucky fin producer- other than dave kashy!

Remi
22nd April 2009, 08:45 AM
Hi Unregisterd,

Just to remind you, it's not me who complain about this situation but many racers who are in this class and all the boards manufatures. Nobody complain before the fin price was under 300€, now it's really not the same.

Can't talks about FOD now

All the best

Unregistered
22nd April 2009, 03:05 PM
Hi Unregisterd,

Just to remind you, it's not me who complain about this situation but many racers who are in this class and all the boards manufatures. Nobody complain before the fin price was under 300€, now it's really not the same.

Can't talks about FOD now

All the best

In all seriousness Remi come up with numbers, survey something credible cause at this stage ok people complain about Kashy prices that's all and everybody agrees that there are alternatives at reasonable prices.

Whatever you are pushing for seems to favour some fin brands (the lucky one that's gonna gear up the board!) and will kill the R&D that other smaller brands are doing and HELPING the class!!!

This is getting rather ridiculous with the OD guys arguing their cause (which is legitimate) but Formula is different so let's keep it different and the way it has been working well so far.

Forget about Kashy, the price is that high cause the consumers pushed it that high and if other brands come up with as good fins (which is already the case) and stay at a lower price (which they probably will do other they will indeed kill the class) Kashy will eventually come back to a more reasonable price.

This is all driven by the market.

gre-969
22nd April 2009, 05:48 PM
Ι have the impression that the FOD class because of loosing the OG 2012 target, they try to effect the FW class into their rules.
If this is their target really, it will be a big mistake of them , I don't want to think to ride something less high tech stuff than my FW gear as many of my colleges here in Greece.

And we are using a lot of different Fins like HURRICANE, DB,C3,VMG,SELECT etc. and their cost on the second hand market is from 150.- - 250.-euro and new untill 350.- that is ok for such a racing machines.

gre-969
22nd April 2009, 06:04 PM
If FOD fans and riders think that their class has future than grow up your idea , I do not think that FW riders will have problem with that but please all this discussion about changing FW into FOD is not productive for non of us Formula sailors or FOD sailors.

Unregistered
26th April 2009, 02:46 PM
Remi said
"Hi Unregistered,

Yes we will found people to buy it even at 5000€, but in the end that will kill the class for sure!!
All the board manufactures are agree to change something about the fins to keep people in the class that is not the case right now.
Just open your mind and think about the Futur of the Class, not for a limited group of hi level racer or rich man"

who cares what the board manufacturers agree or dont agree?
The board manufacturers are NOT the class.
The class is owned by the sailors.

Unregistered
27th April 2009, 08:21 AM
Remi said
All the board manufactures are agree to change something about the fins to keep people in the class that is not the case right now.

please expand on this Remi?
starboard probably represents 75% of the formula boards sold.
F2 has no team riders or direction.
Did you consult with Lorch and Mikes Lab?

Unregistered
27th April 2009, 08:28 AM
Hi Unregisterd,
Nobody complain before the fin price was under 300€, now it's really not the same.

All the best
Uh yea, I remember alot of people complaining when fins were under under 300€ because we basically only had 1 manufacturer who couldn't produce the same fin twice.
If you wanted a good fin you had to buy 10, test them all and keep the 2 that worked.
Debocheit lost the formula market because they couldn't mass produce a decent product and keep up with the demand. Other people stepped in and developed better fins and charged more. What dont you get about that?

raffig
27th April 2009, 02:19 PM
please expand on this Remi?
starboard probably represents 75% of the formula boards sold.
F2 has no team riders or direction.
Did you consult with Lorch and Mikes Lab?

Do not forget Gaastra Vapor, Exocet... Also excellent boards indeed!

Koen B-2
27th April 2009, 08:35 PM
My 2ct:


1) Really good 2nd hand material on the market at acceptable prices (board: 600-900 euro, sails: 300-500 euro, fin: 150-250 euro ).

I myself am still racing 2007 and 2008 sails without any problem. Better to know your sails and get the max out of them. My board is also a 2008. The amount of racer that can test multiple boards and pick one is very, very limited and really the exception in the formula fleet. Most of us get one board and we make the best of it. If there are production variations, we try trim and counteract them.

2) comparison with bicycling world is really spot on. So for sure, FW is not for free, but when comparing to other sports, it is still acceptable.
3) Why differentiate always FW from the rest? Slalom set is equal price as formula set. Since you need more boards and sails, the total is even more expensive and I don't hear many people complaining here.

4) Regarding fins: A Kashy fin has grown due to high demand into a "virtual value" that is indeed far to expensive and it will remain that high as long as no other companies produce similar fins and racers beleive this. Don't forget that at a certain moment, the racers wanted to pay a 2nd value Kashy higher then the price of a new fin. People started to speculate, so Dave his prices went up to prevent this. . This is how it works and good for Dave that he takes the profit and not the guys speculating.

5) There are indeed a lot of fins out there and it is not that easy to find the fin that works best for you. People will buy "wrong" or less suited fins, but for the guy's that are really into racing, there is plenty of info on the web to find out what works and what not and try to go and find such a fin at a reasonable cost. It is more about the type of fin (rake, twist, flex, surface, profile) then just the name tagg. This fin searching and tuning is part of the FW game and is also one of those things that make it interesting.
FW is not only how strong you are or how tall, or not only the best board, but it is a cocktail of many things (men, machine and brains) working together.

6) To know what people talked about I have bought a Kashy (1300$) . I had a good working fin for my board (select from 2005 for low wind and a R20 for medium-high), but still I went for a Kashy. All my fins have similar bend curves in common (soft tips) and they all have similar rakes (after some reraking). My 3 fins give a very similar feeling on the water and when testing the Kashy, it felt good, but not upto a level that you would state that this is the dominant factor in winning or loosing.



Koen B-2

kvda
2nd May 2009, 05:09 PM
Well spoken Koen B-2,

imho: a lot of people believe they can buy performance, even beyond a reasonable level. But most people forget that good performance is for 95 % about one major issue, being The Person itself. I can't understand guys (i'm talking about weekend racers!) who change their gear every year for the newest stuff, spending thousands of euro's, believing they will for certain become better surfers due to that new gear. They do not! In fact, I think they'd get better with staying on their 'old' gear for another year of two...

For me, I only change my stuff when it's broken, worn out or if it doesn't fit my expectations.

And there's another point: measurement, f.e. with GPS. While I'm not faster in nasty chop on a full on slalom (isonic 101) than with a futura 101 (GPS proven repeatedly), why change the futura for a slalom??? But on a regular base people on the beach suggest: go for an isonic, you will be faster.... people, and windsurfers in particular, are not rational. So 1500 kashy are being sold, and will ever be sold, but not to me.

Unregistered
2nd May 2009, 10:05 PM
The only piece of windsurfing equipment ever to appreciate in value!
I'd say that's a great investment.

Unregistered
3rd May 2009, 01:50 PM
Or are the crazy appreciations of these fin prices just yet another incarnation of the tulip mania ?

Unregistered
6th May 2009, 03:41 AM
Or are the crazy appreciations of these fin prices just yet another incarnation of the tulip mania ?


Ah-ah-ah, I fully agree... Formula fins price escalation has all symptoms of a schizophrenia phenomenon and are becoming a new Tulip mania ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania )

Sane
6th May 2009, 08:46 AM
I don't see how this is Tulip-Mania over again.

This post is basically singling out one fin manufacturer; not the entire "fin market" in general.

Deboichet, Hurricane, VMG and others are STILL (and probably will be for some time to come) pricing their fins at <350 euros. There appear to be more independent fin manufacturers appearing this season and no doubt they will most like have their prices under this <350 mark to be competitive.

The last 2 seasons, the fins have been a problem because there was nothing comparable to Kashy on the market and so riders had no choice but to buy one. But this season there is so much choice.

At the first pro event this season in Poland when you see a decent number of the top guys using other brands of fins then you will wonder why this thread even started.