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View Full Version : Next thing to get ? Boards, Sail or fin ?


Youri
6th April 2009, 05:49 AM
Hi,

I am glad to be a new member of this community.

Here is a bit of history you will need to know to answer my question. I'm 185lbs and I have been windsurfing for 4 years now, the first two year on club gear ( which was very old, long narrow board) and the last 2 years on my own stuff. I own a 2006 Starboard Go 155L FAST, and a 6.9m Neilpryde Expression. I also bought a Poison RX 110L used cause I wanted to try a smaller board for high wind days. My skills are still pretty intermediate, I can get in the footstrap and waterstart if the wind is good, but even though I know the techniques to jibbes, I haven't really completed one yet.

So, what should be my next purchase if I want to improve ? I know I would be able to handle a 130 L, and was looking in that direction ( i.e a Carve 131 ). But maybe sticking to the go and getting a smaller fin to make it easier to jibe ( I have the big straight Drake Racing fin only) would be just what I need to start jibing.

And, I know I should get more sails, what do you recommend, smaller for my 110L or Go to make it easier to jibe and control on those windy day, or bigger for light wind on the Go ? and what size ?

I windsurf in Barrie, Ontario and Québec city.

Thank You

Youri

vikingsail
6th April 2009, 09:33 AM
I am going to assume that you are trying to be prepared for those days when the wind goes above 20 mph but not above 25.
1. Get another fin. Do you fight weeds in your area? A 14.5 inch weed fin would work well with the 6.9 and a 12.5 inch weed or wave fin would help on the 20 mph days.
2. Get the 130 carve. the 6.9 will still work with it. Learn to tune the 6.9 for overpowered days.
3. Get a 5.8-6.0 sail for the windier white cap days.

crazychemical
6th April 2009, 08:28 PM
4. keep practicing on the GO and the 110 ... And you may want to consider getting a bigger sailrange before getting more boards ...

Youri
7th April 2009, 06:07 AM
Alright,

so since I don't have an unlimited budget, I think I will stick with the go for one more year.

For sail size I am thinking like vikingsail, about a 5.8 or 6.0 sail.

Do you guys still think a fin would be a good idea for the GO, ( I already bought a bigger fin for my 110L, since my 6.9 was way too big for the freestyle fin it came with ).

Isn't 14,5 inch a bit small for a 155L ? As I was looking on the starboard web site, the fin range in cm goes from 48-58 cm ( about 19,2 - 23,2 inch ). The 2006 website doesn't state the fin range of the 2006 GO.

How do I know which size my current fin is ? It's a Drake R13 Race NR 520.

Roger
7th April 2009, 10:13 AM
Hi Youri,
I agree somehat with both posters here.
First, the Drake R13 Race NR 520 is 52 cm long. (520mm= 52 cm)
That is the stock fin for your 2006 FAST construction GO 155.
Here are the complete specs for your board:
GO 155 155 litres 255 cm. 85 cm. 59.5 cm. 10.4 kg. Deep Tuttle Drake R13 Race NR 520 Sail Range 5.5-9.5 .
Actually the GO with a larger sail, in 12 knots of wind would be an excellent "learn to jibe board".
I think Tom (viking sail) is talking about weed fins, which have much more area for a given depth.
There is no reason that with a 7.5 or 8.5 m2 rig you cannot learn to jibe very nicely (fully planing jibes are much easier on a wider board like your GO 155) with the stock
52 cm fin.
If you sail your GO with a 6.9 m2 rig, you might be better with a 48 cm swept pointer fin,
but the vertical stock fin should be OK (just a little big for a 6.9 m2 rig).
Adding a larger sail will get you so much more quality "time on the water" (TOW) and lots of TOW is what will have you jibing sooner, and better.
I agree with CC that you need to get more sails first.
A 6.9 m2 is getting toward the "too small" area for the GO 155 if you are fully committed to your harness and outboard in the out and back footstraps.
Getting a 7.5 or 8.5 so you can really get the GO "going" in 12 knots would seem the best expenditure to me.
Remember, as the wind speed goes up, so does the chop.
Water is still pretty flat a 12 knots and perfect for carving jibe learning/practice.
At 15-16 knots, the water is going to be getting fairly choppy, so being nicely powered on your GO with the 6.9 (that would be around 15-18 knots for me on your board with the stock 52 cm fin) puts you in conditions where it's going to be less easy to practice your jibes.
Also, you are on fresh water. This makes quite a difference.
If you really think you need another board, sell the 110 L Poison and look for a 120-125 liter board.
Unless you have smaller sails (6.2/5.5/5.0) the 110 liter board is going to feel small (freshwater/185 lb sailor) unless you have at least 16 knots of wind to get it going.
A Carve or Futura 122 would really compliment your GO 155 (at your weight a larger GO 170 would be more suitable).
Hope this helps,

Youri
8th April 2009, 06:42 AM
Thanx for the advice,

I will definitely be looking at sails then. But, having a 6.9, would getting a 7.5 really make a difference.

I am currently looking at an Ezzy Freeride 7,5, would that make a big enough difference compared to my NP Expression 6,9 ? I am having having a hard time believing that 0,6m square will really have an impact ? How much of a gap should I have between my sails ?

Roger
8th April 2009, 08:06 AM
Hi Youri,
Actuallly I agree with your analysis.
0.6 m2 won't make that much improvement.
An 8.0 m2 (1.1 m2 increase) would be better.
A good quiver spacing (in larger sizes) would be about 1.5 m2 so
an 8.5 would really be noticeable.
But, if you are using a NP 460 mast and correct size (< 60% of full extension) boom in your 6.9 Expression you are going to be looking at getting a larger 490 cm mast and perhaps a longer boom if you go to 8.5 m2.
If your budget can handle a complete new rig, then 8.5 m2 would be my suggestion.
Also your NP Expression is a cross over sail, most specifically designed for freestyle and light wave sailing.
I'm not sure the Expression is the best choice to power your GO 155 on reasonably flat water.
The Ezzy Freeride 7.5 would not be a large improvement over your existing 6.9 NP Expression in terms of low wind power, which is what I would suggest to get your GO 155 going in less wind.
8.5 m2 Ezzy Infinity, NP v6/V8, Sailworks Retro, Severne NCX sails, with the recommended mast and boom would be probably the best thing to spend your money on.
I have not sailed in your area, but on fresh water, with a slightly undersize board for your weight, going with a bit more sail power is going to increase your time on the water (fully planing, in the all the way back and outboard straps....i.e. quaility TOW) the most.
Hope this helps,

joe_windsurfer
9th April 2009, 03:24 AM
i have a 160 liter board {not SB YET, but soon :-)} and use a Maui Sails Pursuit from Barry Spanier. Mine is even an older model and i love it. Have not had anything else to compare it to, but do not understand why i always see the BIG names, but never MauiSails... They have proven themselves in races and even with Kevin Pritchard. But somehow always seem to be out of the limelight ...

Roger
9th April 2009, 06:28 AM
Maui Sails are highly respected, as is Barry Spanier.
Unfortunately, I do not often see them at demo events.
My experience with Sailworks leads me to believe that the lofts
that take positive steps to get their products onto the beach and
into demo programs that get their sails into the hands of advancing
sailors do somewhat better in the entry level and advancing beginner/
intermediate markets.
Not too many sailors want to lay our the kind of $$ a modern WS rig
costs without being able to try before they buy.
Just my opinion,
R

Youri
9th April 2009, 06:41 AM
Joe,

if your message was to recommend Maui Sails, point taken, if not, I am not sure what the point of your post was.... ;).

If I sum up Roger comments, getting a bigger sail would improve my Quality TOW. But because of my weird initial set-up (damn surf shop, just kidding), I would need to go pretty huge ( or so it feels for me ) and buy at least a 8.0. Which means getting a complete new rig: new mast, new boom, new mast extension ( I don't know if a big mast extension can be used just like a short one, seems to me that there could be too much of the extension in the base of the mast, if you see what I mean)

Now, another question, I found a used V8 in good shape for sale. The V8 being a freerace sail, I know it is going to be fast. But is it not more difficult to maneuver than a more freeride/freemove oriented sail, and would that make jibing more difficult to learn ? And, if a freestyle oriented sail is designed for acceleration, early planing and ease of use, why wouldn't it be a good choice to power my board ( except for the relatively small sail size of course ). Ok, I know you are going to say freestyle sail doesn't come in 8m and more TOW far exceed the lose of ease of use. Let me reword the question then, what type of sail (regardless of the size) do you think is best to progress once you can handle the power, ride in the harness and outerboard strap?

Finally, it seems to me that a 6.9 sail is somewhat of a odd sail of size to own. Looks like a quiver of a 6.0 and a 7.5 would make more sense than a quiver of 5.5, 6.9 and 8.5. Or maybe it's just an impression.

Maybe I should be getting rid of the 6.9 and getting a 6.0 and a 7.5....

wow, that's a lot of question......

what do you think ?

Roger
10th April 2009, 10:03 AM
Hi Youri,
I'll try to address your questios individually by pasting them in here and working on each one.

But because of my weird initial set-up (damn surf shop, just kidding), I would need to go pretty huge ( or so it feels for me ) and buy at least a 8.0. Which means getting a complete new rig: new mast, new boom, new mast extension ( I don't know if a big mast extension can be used just like a short one, seems to me that there could be too much of the extension in the base of the mast, if you see what I mean)

The issue here is not that you cannot "extend" your 460 cm mast!
The isue is that the larger 8.0 NP V8 is designed to rig on a 490 mast, so if order to get anything near the design performance you need to use a 490 cm mast with this sail.
If you use an "extended" 460 IMCS 24-26 mast in a sail designed for a 490 IMCS 28-32 mast, the mast is not going to bend correctly to give the sail the shape it needs for full performance.
First, a 6.9 is not really a "wierd" size. It's essentially a 7.0 m2.
The sailmaker was just trying to be honest as to the true number of square meters in the sail.
Consider it a 7.0 m2.



Now, another question, I found a used V8 in good shape for sale. The V8 being a freerace sail, I know it is going to be fast. But is it not more difficult to maneuver than a more freeride/freemove oriented sail, and would that make jibing more difficult to learn ?
And, getting a larger rig, (8.0-8.5 m2) is probably not going to be so "huge" as you may think.
Yes, a 490 mast and larger boom will weigh more than your current rig components, but the slight increase in weight (unless you go for a higher carbon content mast) will be more than offset by the increased early planing power.
Yes, a little more difficult to uphaul, but once the rig is up and working for you, not alot of difference if you keep it balanced on the mast foot.


And, if a freestyle oriented sail is designed for acceleration, early planing and ease of use, why wouldn't it be a good choice to power my board ( except for the relatively small sail size of course ). Ok, I know you are going to say freestyle sail doesn't come in 8m and more TOW far exceed the lose of ease of use. Let me reword the question then, what type of sail (regardless of the size) do you think is best to progress once you can handle the power, ride in the harness and outerboard strap?
My experience is that "freestyle" sails (very maneuver oriented and the primary focus of the design is easy handling in advanced transition moves (not advanced beginner or intermediate tacking/jibing, etc.)) so they have a limited amount of power and draft.
Free race sails, on the other hand, have lot's of power (but they are not necessarily the "fastest" sails on the water) on the low end, and avery good overall range of use.
You cannot really compare the "early planing" claims for a freestyle sail with the early planing claims for a free race sail.
The free race sail will have significantly more power on the low end of the spectrum.
The V8 8.0 would be a good choice, but an 8.5 V* would be an even better choice.
Same mast, nearly the same boom length, and very similar overall rig weight when compared to the 8.0.


Finally, it seems to me that a 6.9 sail is somewhat of a odd sail of size to own. Looks like a quiver of a 6.0 and a 7.5 would make more sense than a quiver of 5.5, 6.9 and 8.5. Or maybe it's just an impression.
6.0 to 7.5 is an OK quiver spacing, but 5.5-6.0 up to 6.9 is also an acceptable quiver spacing.
As the sail sizes come down, it's better to space your sails somewhat closer together.
I see more issues with having a 6.9 freestyle sail and having an 8.5 m2 free race sail as they are significantly different designs.
The 8.5 V8 will not be "difficult to handle" for normal tacks jibes and things you are learning.
The 8.0/V8 woukld be difficult to handle" if you try to do advanced freestyle moves with it.
We are talking willie skippers, flacas, heli-tacks etc, which are way down the road in your learning curve.
Hope this helps,

Youri
27th May 2009, 08:09 AM
Hi,

thx for all the advice, I tried a 8.0 the other day and it felt aweome, as you said, a freeride sail feels a lot different, it feels a lot lighter once at cruising speed, compared to my freestyle. The bigger mast and boom means it doesn't really fit well in my car, but I'm still considering it.

Only thing I wasn't too much of a fan off was the 4 cambers, who made it a little harder since the sail wasn't rotating by itself.

On another note, the wind picked up so much the other day I couldn't go on the water with my 6.9. I was pissed. So now I guess I will end up getting a 8.0 and a smaller sail.

Roger
27th May 2009, 11:03 AM
Hi Youri,
Hmmmm..... the 8.0 NP V8 has 4 camber inducers?
I would have thought that it would be maybe 3 cams, not 4.
You will need to learn how to rig and tune a cambered sail.
If you had it on the "best" mast (or another mast that's very similar and
compatible with the characteristics the sail needs, the cambers will rotate
very nicely when you have the downhaul in the correct range.
I guess you have a very small car, right?
Have you considered a roof rack for the larger rig?
And.....
Yes, you will need smaller sails as well.
A 5.5-6.0 and another in the 4.5-5.0 m2 range would give you
a sail for just about every wind condition up to 25 knots.
Hope this helps,

marek
27th May 2009, 06:53 PM
Hi,

I am glad to be a new member of this community.

Here is a bit of history you will need to know to answer my question. I'm 185lbs and I have been windsurfing for 4 years now, the first two year on club gear ( which was very old, long narrow board) and the last 2 years on my own stuff. I own a 2006 Starboard Go 155L FAST, and a 6.9m Neilpryde Expression. I also bought a Poison RX 110L used cause I wanted to try a smaller board for high wind days. My skills are still pretty intermediate, I can get in the footstrap and waterstart if the wind is good, but even though I know the techniques to jibbes, I haven't really completed one yet.

So, what should be my next purchase if I want to improve ? I know I would be able to handle a 130 L, and was looking in that direction ( i.e a Carve 131 ). But maybe sticking to the go and getting a smaller fin to make it easier to jibe ( I have the big straight Drake Racing fin only) would be just what I need to start jibing.

And, I know I should get more sails, what do you recommend, smaller for my 110L or Go to make it easier to jibe and control on those windy day, or bigger for light wind on the Go ? and what size ?



Hi Youri,

You got some excellent info here, I just want to share my opinion with you since I'm the same weight and had similar concerns (got lots of help here).
I sail on freshwater inland lakes, wind 12-25(?) knots, gusty and choppy.

I'll let you know what quiver I ended up with and why - hope that'll help you make a decision:

1. Starboard F-type 148 + 9.8 freerace (Gaastra GTX 3-cam), footstraps all the way out/back (GO 155 + 8.5 in your case I'd say)
2. Other brand ;-) 125l/69cm board, footstraps all the way in/forward for better learning (it's really easy to get into them) + 7.5 freerace and 6.4 freemove (Gastra Remedy)

* I got rid of 111l. older Carve, because it was too narrow and too small for me (I don't really get too much very windy days and my progress was slow). Getting slightly wider and more floaty board was a very good deal for me.
* I got rid of 6.0 3-cam sail because:
- I rarely got days windy enough for this sail
- if the day comes, 3-cams and low foot didn't help with chop, jibes, waterstarts, etc.
So I switched to a more friendly no-cam sail that I can also use on light-wind days to practice helitacs, etc.
* I got rid of 10.0 sail with non-dedicated mast and switched to dedicated Gaastra GTX setup. That was a good move, sail rotates and rigs effortlessly.

Larger sails with cams are great for gusty lakes, but I'd recommend getting them with dedicated masts.
Another thing I learned is not to be afraid of buying and selling gear; I do it every year and if I don't like something I just sell and replace. Often it's less expensive to buy a new sail, but not the latest model, but say, 2007 (often differences are small).
I like to buy rigs new (especially masts), but I have no problem whatsoever with used boards.

Right now I'm only thinking about getting 8.5 for my 125l board, like Roger suggests, seem to be a nice size, the largest that doesn't yet feel like a 10.0.
Would love to try larger no-cam Retros, but they don't demo or sell them where I live.
I'm also thinking about either switching from F-Type to a fully fledged formula or to sell the whole set and have one board only with max. 8.5 sail. (my back is not very happy with the large sail + days when you can get going on 9.8 but can't get going on 7.5-8.5 are rare)

If I were you I'd leave this 6.9 sail and learn how to tune it down, I'd buy 8.5 and I'd get ~120-130l/~70cm wide board for windier days.
If you really have more windy days, when you can't use your 6.9 I'd get something like 5.5, cheap and used (depends on how often you will use it) - but I'm not very familiar with winds and sizes below 6.0 ;-).

Just my 2c :)

-marek

Youri
28th May 2009, 06:52 AM
Hi,

The sail I tried was a Maui Sails TR 2 I think, but it is hard to confirm since I can't get to the Maui Sails website for some reason. It has 9 battens and four cams, wich are pretty easy to set up since there are zippers that let you access the cams. Like I said earlier, not a fan of the cams, but I understand their advantages.

As for the car, it isn't that small, ( Mazda 6 Sport ( hatchback) ), but the mast, sail and boom go all the way to the front passenger seat. I have a roof racks for it, but for now have only used it for the board. I am not really sure how to secure the sail, boom and mast to the roof, but I'm sure I would figure out a way if I had a decent quiver bag.

Marek: thx for the info, your setup would be perfect if I was staying in this area, but I am moving to Québec city and I have heard it is kind of more windy ( even though the windiest area are too dangerous for me to venture in them yet.) Looks like getting a wide array fo sails might be my best option.

joe_windsurfer
29th May 2009, 07:35 AM
wow - you got to try a TR 2 ?
did you get to borrow it from a shop or friend ? Montreal ?
as an MS fan {as u already said :-) } wish to try any TR ...

Youri
29th May 2009, 07:59 AM
That's right, you are a fan.

A friend of mine wants to sell it, he had to leave for a meeting so he lended it to me for the remainder of the day so I could see if I liked it. It felt really good and really light once on a plane. But the rotation of the sail and waterstarting was a bit trickier, because of the cams.

It was in Barrie, about an hour north of Toronto.

joe_windsurfer
30th May 2009, 04:48 AM
barrie - that's near my old stompin grounds
used to live in keswick many moons ago
now i dream of w/s in cook's bay or jackson's point:)

btw my old 3 cam Gaastra rotates better with more downhaul and outhaul
if u ever get 2 try another cammed sail - suggest u try that

Youri
5th June 2009, 07:19 AM
Joe,

if I'm right, cooks bay shouldn't be too far from Keswick.

Roger,

Another question, what would happen if instead of rigging the TR2 on a 490 mast ( the luff is 496 ) I would rig it on a 460 with 36 cm of extension ? The sail is for sale, but I don't have a 490 mast for it. Would the 460 be a reasonable replacement ?

Thx

joe_windsurfer
5th June 2009, 04:50 PM
you can ask that one on the MS forum www.mauisails.com/forum
would have thought 36 cm was a lot, but the TR2 12.0 uses 35 cm extension

usually the folks @ MS suggest you go with recommended mast, but you never know - good question to ask - i will post the question for you and you just need to follow the thread :)

http://www.mauisails.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=12154#p12154

sorry - barry spanier, the sail designer says "no, you will NOT like the combination"

Youri
8th June 2009, 07:21 PM
Joe,

thx for the post in the mauisails forum, yeah I saw their answer, that's too bad.

I decided not to get the sail finally, mainly because I am moving soon and won't have any room in the car to bring it with me, I'll check the used market in Québec city when I get there.

Since I know you are a MS fan ;), I can hook you up if you want. It is a great deal, he is asking for 300$ for the sail, a 8.0 TR2, and the wishbone. I can tell you it is in really good condition, and sails beautifully.

If you are interested, I'll put you in contact with him via email. Let me know.

joe_windsurfer
10th June 2009, 04:46 AM
thx 4 asking, butt am all set in the 8.x category :-)

used market in quebec http://www.windsurfing.qc.ca/annonces/ + shops obviously