PDA

View Full Version : slalom in rough water


Egor
21st April 2009, 10:26 AM
I have a problem with control in rough water on my slalom board but I don’t think the problem is my gear, Im pretty sure its me and my lack of experience sailing very fast in choppy water. I think I get a bit scared and end up sheeting out to slow down then loose control.

I was thinking of changing my slalom fin to a freeride type fin which might help with slowing the board down and having better control. Or perhaps using a bigger fin to get more lift to sail on top of the chop?

Has anyone got any advice or tips to improve slalom performance in very choppy conditions which will hopefully lead to me finishing some races in the future.

Jesper Orth
21st April 2009, 12:39 PM
Hi Egor

To sail comfortable in strong windy conditions and rough water, -do takes some experience.

Control and comfort is the key thing here (not top end speed). You are right that if you sheet out, than the board tail walk or you loos your front foot out of the strap etc. It is important to keep power in the sail all the time to have mast foot pressure that keeps the board pinned down to the rough water.

Here are a few tips that I hope will help you a bit.

Long harness lines (32-34). Will keep your body away from the rig and you can control it better.

Boom down. Will put more pressure to the front foot to keep the board down.

Don't use extreme downhaul. This will make the board tail walk even more. Sometimes it is better with a bit more pressure on the leach.

Mast foot a bit forward. It will sit the board down more.

Place the foot straps in mid to front position. Will give you more control.

Use a waist harness. This is personal but can help a great deal, as you feel a little less locked in.

If you have 2 clew eyelets in the sail. Use the bottom eyelet as it will increase the control a touch, and allow you to sheet in all the time.

Don't have the sail out hauled to flat. The rig will be too nervous and you will be moving around too much.

Try using a softer mast. This can help on the rig control as the sail will flex more and allow you to stay sheeted in.

Use a mast with less carbon content. Some mast with less carbon content 55-75% can be used with good success, as it "slows" the mast responding time down a bit, and you can stay sheeted in (this for extremely windy choppy conditions).

For the fins. You can try as you mentioned to use a fin with more curve going backwards, as it will set the board down more. A bigger fin can also help sometimes as it pushes the nose down as well. This style might require a bit more experience.

Hope it helps and will make you finish some races,,J

BR

Jesper

Egor
21st April 2009, 05:50 PM
Hi Jesper,

Thanks for the tips. The longer harness lines is a great idea as I usually use 24" so havent got much room for error when over powered and sheeting out and yes sheeting out is bad. Ive tried a waist harness before but it felt very strange after using a seat harness for years but maybe its worth trying again.

Anyway you have given me a lot of ideas to work on so thanks

Floyd
21st April 2009, 06:23 PM
Egor
Think you need to be a bit more specific with your kit/ability/weight/conditions.

Are you getting railed/spinning out/getting overpowered ? Catapulted ??

What size board? / fin ?/ rig ?are you having problems with and in what windstrength/sea state.?

We all experiene control problems at some point but it can be rig related or board/fin (Rig can cause both !!!)

If rig/ board /fin are all ok (compatable) it feels easy.(Upto a point) If one is out it can feel terrible. Good sailors make it look easy but much of the work has been done on the beach. Get everything right and then look at your technique.(Bad habits can be picked up eliminating what can be poor choice/set up)

You will never feel as "stable" in a waist harness as a seat. Waist gives easier rig movement but does not offer same purchase/ easy loading as a seat. (look what slalom/speed/racers use)

Erik Loots
21st April 2009, 07:20 PM
Egor,

I guess you are riding a slalomboard+racesail. One of the things I would suggest is a stable fin, a bit curved maybe and less tip surface.

like these models:
Select Devil (http://www.speedsurfingblog.com/2009/01/select-devil-2008-review.html)
Tectonics Falcon f1 (http://www.speedsurfingblog.com/2008/12/tectonics-falcon-f1-rest.html)

Another tip for really extreme conditions is a wide footstrap stance. I don't trim my sail way different on flat or extreme choppy water. Take a bit longer fin will help in downwind-control, but is has to be a good fin otherwise longer will mean less control.

Really long harnasslines are sometimes no possible solution because the waves are to high.

Unregistered
21st April 2009, 08:05 PM
Holy schmoly!!!!!!!!!

32 to 34" lines !!!!!!!!!

Can you even buy harness lines that long!?

Before wasting your money, please test with rope. I doubt it will work very well.
... or try lowering your boom to your knees!

Farlo
21st April 2009, 09:07 PM
Egor, maybe you should insist with the waist harness, along with using the other tips. I went to waist harness after years of "seating" too. The seat is more confortable but the waist brings you up and helps keeping the board flat on water. However 32/34 cm may be a bit long with a waist harness. Try 28/30 cm with the boom just below shoulders. Now if you want to win some races and not only finish them, you may go back to seat after a while.

Unregistered
21st April 2009, 09:15 PM
Harness lines thing is pure fashion.
One year short gives more stability. Next long does.
Its what suits you gives best.

Control in chop. ?? Buy a wave board and enjoy the chop. If its that bad you`ll be going just as quick anyhow.

Slalom boards controlled from rail are a pain in arse .They aren`t faster; they just feel it because you are on limit of control stood way out there. My Honda CG125 feels like a fireblade if I ride it stood on seaT.

Slalom boards are fast because fast sailors sail them; us umb ass sailors then go and buy them thinking we can sail them.We cant so we go on sailing holidays; pay fools to try and coach us then buy nother board next year and start all over again.(All helps pay for the hords of sponsred sailors though)

Buy an easy to sail board; learn to sail it and enjoy the chop.Forget dedicated boards and most of the nonesense on here ! (34 inch lines ??? Waist harness ?? No downhaul ???Longer ins to help control I`ve never heard such drivvle !!!)

Unregistered
21st April 2009, 09:30 PM
sorry
it should have read
"us Dumb ass sailors"
and
"longer Fins for more control"

willy
21st April 2009, 09:42 PM
Hi Egor, i have a similar question about fins, i already have a Deb sl2 36cm that Oriana sent me in 2007 but later on she never answered me any email about a new one.
I can say that mine glides perfect for slalom racing, very fast (very thin fin, IS 101 stock Drake fin was designed by Deb), and great upwind too. Now i am looking for a new fin for downwind racing in 110 degrees and there are some very good fins, you can watch my post at http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5614
Rgds.

Screamer
22nd April 2009, 01:47 AM
Egor

In addition to Jesper's excellent tips:
Balls. Lots of ;-)

Also listen to poster #8. Not everyone has the skill and dedication of pro racers. I like sailing slalom (recreational), up to a point. Of course I bail out way before this happens (pics from PWA slalom, Lanzarote 2007)

Everyone has to decide for themselves when it's "too much", then it's time for Kodes/waveboards, etc.

PS #8, although I agree with a lot of things you say, I don't think you can say "nonsense" to Jesper. I believe he knows a thing or two about sailing slalom gear overpowered ;-)

Egor
22nd April 2009, 09:22 AM
I have a sonic 100 and 6.6 race sail and select superfast 32cm. I love this combo and have no problem sailing powered up at my local spot which is pretty smooth water. I can sail all day without missing a carve jibe. Its only when I compete in social racing at other spots in bigger chop and confused sea. Im not use to sailing in these conditions but I want to get better to compete. I dont want a freeride or wave board.

and screamer is right I need bigger nads

Unregistered
22nd April 2009, 09:27 PM
We could all do with bigger nads !

Just because somebody can sail does not mean their advice is not drivvle. Not downhauling sails;use waist harness; use 3ft harness lines and bigger fin IS absolute drivvle !!!

And
Lanzarote is not a choppy venue. Those are waves and its not maxed out either. (in any of pics)
And
If you are on Slalom kit in Lanza you are a muddle head (or sponsored muddle head promoting "slalom" kit)

Its like going around Brands Hatch in a bus.

Control problems ?
More DH. Smaller fin. Tighten your waist harness.Moves lines back a bit.Fall off a lot and learn it doesn`t hurt most times. Then buy a fast freeride and enjoy your sailing.

Lifes too short to sail dedicated slalom boards.

mim
23rd April 2009, 12:08 AM
Hey Unregistred...

You look like enjoying this thread (a bit radical though)
I would have more or less the same ideas in some points...more downhaul yes, smaller fin yes, shorter lines (no way...the stronger the wind the longer the lines...on slalom, not wave board), shifting lines back no (reduce back hand pressure, but when there is gust comming will throw you over).

Your life may be too short, I hope I will be here quite a while and I will be riding dedicated slalom (and wave boards as well) as long as possible.

Btw. I guess as well Jesper has quite an experience.

PS: and yes, chop for me is something different that the pictures from Lanzarote...chop is something with very high and not regular frequency.
On the other hand...slalom riding in waves (did it on corsica this winter in 3+ meter waves) is hell of a fun...you never try you never know!!!

Ciao Michal.

davide
23rd April 2009, 12:39 AM
Hi Jesper,

Thanks for the tips. The longer harness lines is a great idea as I usually use 24" so havent got much room for error when over powered and sheeting out and yes sheeting out is bad. Ive tried a waist harness before but it felt very strange after using a seat harness for years but maybe its worth trying again.

Anyway you have given me a lot of ideas to work on so thanks
Hi,

for harness lines you could get a good set of adjustable ones. I use mine anywhere between 26-28" for slalom (I am 172cm tall). Something with a cleat because nothing else works: for example the Chinook Race Harness Line http://www.chinooksailing.com/products/product_info.php?products_id=139

... and for the original question ... I sail probably one of the worst chops around, Crissy field in SF can get a 4 knots ebb tide against a 15-20knots of wind against it: the result is very vertical and high frequency chop. And I must say that I go out with my slalom but ... I get tired of it after half an hour: the wind is perfect for 5.5-6.5 slalom but the chop makes it too physical and taxing (I am fifty). So most of the time comes ebb-tide I grab my B&J and my SuperFreak 4.7-5.3 and I am much much much happier :o

Unregistered
23rd April 2009, 12:58 AM
Should have said
"life`s too short to sail dedicated slalom in chop or when you can get wave board going"

Screamer
23rd April 2009, 01:06 AM
I know the difference between swell/waves and chop thank you ;-)

Not maxed out? Well OK I suppose it's a piece of cake for you then ;-)

Per
23rd April 2009, 12:24 PM
Practice, practice and more practice. Quit the extremes - very low boom, very long lines, extreme out- and downhaul etc.
Slalom boards are great machines and with PRACTICE you will start loving them.
Have fun....

;-)
Per

Unregistered
23rd April 2009, 03:11 PM
Screamer
I didn`t post pictures explaining to us all what choppy conditions (dont) look like !

I also didnt give bad (wrong)advice !!! (Bigger fin ; less down haul ;waist harness ?)

Slalom boards in Lanza ???

Been sailing from Los Chargos 20 years (+); nobody but nobody goes out on slalom on anything like decent days !!! Reading drivvle and BS on here sounds like everyone does !!
(except muddle heads who normally end up on rocks)

Lanza is probably best wave venue in Europe.(Well nearly in Europe) (Femara/Los Chargos) Your posting piks as examples of chop ! Nothing like chop. ! (Try Sotavento for chop )

Waiting4wind
23rd April 2009, 08:05 PM
Screamer
I didn`t post pictures explaining to us all what choppy conditions (dont) look like !

I also didnt give bad (wrong)advice !!! (Bigger fin ; less down haul ;waist harness ?)

Slalom boards in Lanza ???

Been sailing from Los Chargos 20 years (+); nobody but nobody goes out on slalom on anything like decent days !!! Reading drivvle and BS on here sounds like everyone does !!
(except muddle heads who normally end up on rocks)

Lanza is probably best wave venue in Europe.(Well nearly in Europe) (Femara/Los Chargos) Your posting piks as examples of chop ! Nothing like chop. ! (Try Sotavento for chop )

Dude, I don't think you've spent much time tuning a slalom board! You're giving wrong advice by trying to discredit some good advice being offered here.

I think you'll find that Jesper said don't use extreme down haul. A bit more power does help to maintain the MFP and keep the nose down. And yes a bigger fin generating a little more lift will push the nose down as well, keeping the board calmer. A lot of successful racers do use a waist harness. Personally, a waist harness gives me a big control advantage in chop. I like to ride B&J /wave, but a slalom board can be a sweet and exhilarating ride when you really get it dialed, even in big chop!

Unregistered
23rd April 2009, 09:01 PM
Here we go !
Another racer "dude".
I slalom/race/sail Formula blah blah blah so I know best. Dude.

A) Big fins DO NOT give more board lift until on point of severe control problems. (ie railing. They give added lift TO WINDWARD. They DO NOT keep nose down. (Except in some sailors heads)

B) Waist Harness DECREASES amount of power available as it does not pull from centre of gravity of sailor. (Seat harness pulls from CoG;) Hence more force available but (probably) less manouverable.

C)Lanza is NOT a choppy venue.Its a wave venue. Rarely choppy.

D) 3 feet harness lines would NOT help. (Probably hinder ???)

Tell you what Dude you follow all this wonderfull advice. (ie Fin too big; harness lines 3 ft long; waist harness ) and Ill come and take piks.

Original poster was asking for some pointers about technique for helping control in choppy conditions. This is the BS he got !!! (Perhaps Jasper; Screamer and Waiting for wind (dude) do this all time ??

Probably the exact opposite of what he shoud have been told !
ie) For more control a) More DH
b) Smaller fin. (smallest you can infact use and still go upwind)
c) Commit to harness and stay there keeping rig loaded;mast track weighted and nose down.(The fin will NOT keep nose down; you do !!!)
d) Relax
e) Enjoy it. If you cant get your wave board out ! (Or your freeride)

Ken
24th April 2009, 12:08 AM
Here we go !
Another racer "dude".
I slalom/race/sail Formula blah blah blah so I know best. Dude.

A) Big fins DO NOT give more board lift until on point of severe control problems. (ie railing. They give added lift TO WINDWARD. They DO NOT keep nose down. (Except in some sailors heads)

B) Waist Harness DECREASES amount of power available as it does not pull from centre of gravity of sailor. (Seat harness pulls from CoG;) Hence more force available but (probably) less manouverable.

C)Lanza is NOT a choppy venue.Its a wave venue. Rarely choppy.

D) 3 feet harness lines would NOT help. (Probably hinder ???)


Tell you what Dude you follow all this wonderfull advice. (ie Fin too big; harness lines 3 ft long; waist harness ) and Ill come and take piks.

Original poster was asking for some pointers about technique for helping control in choppy conditions. This is the BS he got !!! (Perhaps Jasper; Screamer and Waiting for wind (dude) do this all time ??

Probably the exact opposite of what he shoud have been told !
ie) For more control a) More DH
b) Smaller fin. (smallest you can infact use and still go upwind)

c) Commit to harness and stay there keeping rig loaded;mast track weighted and nose down.(The fin will NOT keep nose down; you do !!!)
d) Relax
e) Enjoy it. If you cant get your wave board out ! (Or your freeride)

My thoughs on some of this.

Harness lines:

Depends on how deep your are reaching (downwind slalom). Like formula racing, lengthening your lines on the downwind runs provides increased control, especially in rough conditions. Short lines are a guaranteed disaster for all but the best sailors on really bumpy full reaches.

Fins:

There is a point when a fin will be too big, but I have found the smaller fins more likely to spin out in very rough conditions. I like bigger, more powerful fins because I have better control and less spin out in the really rough stuff. This may not be true for everyone, just best for me.

Sails:

More downhaul will de-power a sail, but they get more twitchy and more difficult to control if running downwind. Again - Formula sailors "bag" their sails downwind for increased control and stability. This wouldn't be true on a beam reach. I have adjustable outhauls on all of my sails from 6.6 up to 11.0, which provide the ability to better manage control as conditions and point of sail vary.

All of the above may or may not be the best thing to do, but there are so many variables that come into play - wind, water state, point of sail, sail size, skill level, board size, etc. One must experiment a little to see what works best for them.

Unregistered
24th April 2009, 02:44 PM
So its definitive then !
Advice for choppy conditions .
A) Slacken DH.
B) Fit bigger fin.
c) Fit 3 feet harness lines. (Forward a bit)

Our sport is full of BS.
From forums to magazines to websites. Definitive.

Unregistered
24th April 2009, 02:45 PM
Oh and ditch the seat harness. !!!

Unregistered
24th April 2009, 02:47 PM
And experiment a bit; whilst your swimming no doubt. !!

Waiting4wind
24th April 2009, 04:17 PM
So its definitive then !
Advice for choppy conditions .
A) Slacken DH.
B) Fit bigger fin.
c) Fit 3 feet harness lines. (Forward a bit)

Our sport is full of BS.
From forums to magazines to websites. Definitive.

Yep you're so right about BS on the internet!!!! 3 posts in a row.

Take a chill pill dude. C ya, I won't waste any more of my time posting BS here.

LK
24th April 2009, 05:40 PM
So its definitive then !
Advice for choppy conditions .
A) Slacken DH.
B) Fit bigger fin.
c) Fit 3 feet harness lines. (Forward a bit)

Our sport is full of BS.
From forums to magazines to websites. Definitive.
Congratulations, you finally got the message.
Thought you never would understand the excellent advice from Jesper.

Screamer
24th April 2009, 08:39 PM
It's written DRIVEL, word you're looking for ;-)

Unregistered, I actually agree with a lot of what you say, I don't have a "gladiator" state of mind of a slalom pro and I bail out when the conditions warrant masochistic experience. I didn't say "look at the chop in the pictures", I wanted to say "look at the (totally unsuitable) conditions in which only the pros could survive (enjoy?) on slalom gear".

Sometimes it's not just what you say, but HOW you say it also.

Tone of your post you know.

Farlo
25th April 2009, 03:17 PM
Well I'm not addicted to slalom boards either but waist harness (along with other tips) helps a lot in rough conditions. You don't necessarily need more power, just more control. Of course at the beginning you feel less "hoocked" but very soon it pays. [Sorry guys - it's just so fun to keep him going]

mim
25th April 2009, 11:37 PM
[Sorry guys - it's just so fun to keep him going]

Yeah, I like him too!

steveC
26th April 2009, 02:07 AM
The use of very long harness lines is a bit hard to envision for me, even though I always used a seat harness. I'm about davide's size, but I have fairly short arms. As a result, I find that 24" line work the best for me. In the past I've used up to 26" lines, but it ultimately put a lot more stress on my arms.

Regarding the use of slalom boards in rough conditions (heavy chop or more open ocean swell), I have to say that I really enjoy the kind of performance they offer, and I think many folks often give slalom boards a bad rap. Sure, they can be a handful when conditions are maxing out, but I've found that learning to adjust and control things makes you a better sailor overall.

I will say this though, most of the better slalom sailors really sail overpowered using very big sails for the conditions. For older sailors like myself, or more down to earth real world sailors, often do better using somewhat smaller sails. You might not be the fastest under those circumstances, but you'll maybe have success finishing races and ultimately work up the experience, strength and stamina to sail super overpowered.

Unregistered
27th April 2009, 01:42 AM
You`re right about the spelling its "drivel". Not much else mind.

Ask this question on other "Ask ur Team" and see what`s said ?

To my mind all most posters have done on here is justify what was originally "wrong" advice but as long as that wrong advice is given in correct tone then its OK.
Come on lads bigger fin; less DH; long lines and use a waist harness is just not helping original poster; fair comment its pehaps not drivel (or drivvle) and some esoteric sailor might well benefit from certain aspects of this advice BUTit does not represent good advice for a relative newcomer and you all know it does not !!!

Obvously there are times when bigger foil gives more control but if its doing so in rough conditions its simply because sailor has backed of so much. (ie slowed down) Fin sze is speed dependant as well as sail size;if you are going slow you will spin out on a small fin.(even if you are on a small rig) but I assume you "team players" will disagree with that too ? (To back each other up ??)

Instead of knocking my advice (which was given way back) why dont you answer the question and give some advice of your own ? Perhaps that might just agree with mine t ??? (and disagree with Jaspers ?)

I`ll spell check my posts in future ???

If bad advice is given it should be chalenged !!!! What was my bad advice ????

Unregistered
27th April 2009, 04:08 AM
You started giving bad advice from the second you assumed that you know more about slalom sailing than Jesper Orth, and that you knew what the original poster should enjoy sailing.

If you are so much better than Jesper at slalom sailing, why not tell us who you are and how many events you've won?

If you're among the hundreds that Jesper beats, then obviously you are doing it wrong and not Jesper.

Gestalt
27th April 2009, 04:24 AM
You`re right about the spelling its "drivel". Not much else mind.

Ask this question on other "Ask ur Team" and see what`s said ?

To my mind all most posters have done on here is justify what was originally "wrong" advice but as long as that wrong advice is given in correct tone then its OK.
Come on lads bigger fin; less DH; long lines and use a waist harness is just not helping original poster; fair comment its pehaps not drivel (or drivvle) and some esoteric sailor might well benefit from certain aspects of this advice BUTit does not represent good advice for a relative newcomer and you all know it does not !!!

Obvously there are times when bigger foil gives more control but if its doing so in rough conditions its simply because sailor has backed of so much. (ie slowed down) Fin sze is speed dependant as well as sail size;if you are going slow you will spin out on a small fin.(even if you are on a small rig) but I assume you "team players" will disagree with that too ? (To back each other up ??)

Instead of knocking my advice (which was given way back) why dont you answer the question and give some advice of your own ? Perhaps that might just agree with mine t ??? (and disagree with Jaspers ?)

I`ll spell check my posts in future ???

If bad advice is given it should be chalenged !!!! What was my bad advice ????

You are right on the money my friend. I always have a good laugh at people who have bought small slalom boards and then complain about how hard they are to use. When the wind is strong enough for them of course the waters going to be rough. Could be a reason ‘freeride’ boards were invented and why they are so popular…maybe because someone other than just Dunkerbeck can use them. Funny as hell. :):):)

Unregistered
27th April 2009, 02:44 PM
Nice one Gestalt.
Unregistered
A person`s asbility to advise does not correlate with his/her ability to sail; as ably demonstrated on here !

If BD/ AA / or even Robby himself said the rubbish that`s been said on here (which BTW they wouldn`t) I`d still have said same.

Too many people on here hero worship..

Being a good sailor and a good coach are competely different !!!

Unregistered
27th April 2009, 02:53 PM
Sure, being a good coach is different from being a good sailor - but how do you know that the advice that you are giving is right, unless you have beaten (or at least been competitive with) those you are contradicting?

If you have a foundation for your views, other than "I'm right because I know I'm right" let's hear it.

Floyd
27th April 2009, 03:26 PM
Not sure ANYBODY can give advice without knowing more specific details than those offered.

However
Dont think people have to qualify advice by giving their experience either.Angelo Dundee was probably best boxing coach there has been (probably) dont think he ever actually boxed himself.(Certainly was never a champion) The advice is either good/pertinent or not ;irrelevant of who offers it.
In this case I didnt agree with Jesper`s. (Bigger fin ???Longer lines ??) But we`ve all got right to offer our "thoughts".
Uregistered makes good points but badly.

There is a thread on site actualy saying his speed has gone down on slalom kit; I wonder how often this is the case.

A good few years back I was on a speed course in severe chop.Couldn`t get faster than 33 knots on "speed kit". Went out to play on non-cambered sail +free ride. (a carve !!!?? + Saber) and got my best speed of day !!! (36 knots)

Dont think we should make the distinctions we do between slalom/freeride.There is a best choice for sailor/condiions. Its often freeride. (ie comort/ease of sailing can often pay better dividends than outright "theoretical" speed)

Good thread though.

Screamer
27th April 2009, 04:30 PM
Good points Floyd.

I wouldn't advise the same as Jesper to a relative newcomer, but those tips are worth taking into account. To be fair, in the end of his post he did write you need a LOT OF EXPERIENCE for some of it to work.

Wrt freeride vs slalom, my experience is this: with largish sails >7.5 and when water is not too disturbed, no freeride can come close to iS122 (or similar), I've tried. In 25+ and messy chop/swell, I guess I'd use something "softer" (and probably go faster overall), rather than small dedicated slalom. Others may have different preferences.

Farlo
27th April 2009, 06:02 PM
Egor, seems that you want to compete with your Sonic 100, not just blast around in crazy chops. Also 32 cm fin is quite reasonable with 6.6 m˛. Most of Jesper's advices are relevant. Just don't go too long with lines specially after lowering your boom and adopting a waist harness. You can easily loose them before you learn how to "seat" with such harness and keep them tight.

phantom
27th April 2009, 07:41 PM
Rules of thumb used by "local heroes" perpetuate the ignorance that exists in the sport. You will fit in well with the kiters.

The general rules that work for detuned boards and no cam freeride learner junk do not address problems with balance on dedicated slalom boards. Those advocating more downhaul as a general rule for increased control should learn how to rig sails, learn when their advice is not based on real experience, or go somewhere where the wind blows more than 15-20 knots. Or take up kiting. The only general thing about downhaul is that pulling it past a certain point sucks the shape from the front of the sail and KILLS stability.

Longer harness lines work very well in strong wind by allowing the rider to sheet the sail out without moving the body over the board centre line. It takes a while to learn how to keep pressure on the lines by adjusting stance dynamically. You advocators of short lines should jump out of the 80s and learn how to sail properly. Or take up kiting instead.

Short harness lines are suicide on a properly tuned, COMPETITIVE slalom setup. There is a reason pro sailors ALL use longer harness lines. If you stick to short harness lines and think that will help, you should take up kiting because clearly you have limited ability.

Fin length- depending on the design of the fin, a longer fin can provide improved board stability in very rough water. This is not a general rule. But if you dont have the skills to recognise the specific problem you have with control, then you need to try several things. Or take up kiting. One of those can be as Jesper suggested, a LONGER FIN.

Fin lift is determined directly by speed and area. Clearly if the board is leaving the water whenever the fin is loaded, the problem is probably the fin being too big. If the board has no pitching stability (bouncing nose) then a longer fin is likely to help the situation. Opposite solutions to two different problems lumped under the one heading of "control problems". Those who disagree should take up kiting because clearly they have limited ability.

Screamer
27th April 2009, 09:18 PM
Phantom

You forgot to mention kiting ;-)))))))))))))))))))))

Unregistered
27th April 2009, 10:38 PM
Inuation that kiters are Dumb. (Even though they now hold outright speed record for sailing craft and were first to break 50 k barrier)
Direct insult to freeride kit. (Junk)
Sort of derails your BS arguments further !!

Meanwhile I`ll stick to my rules of thumb; smaller fins when its windy + rough. Go on free ride when its time and wave kit when its more fun. Think I`ll stick with seat harness for slalom/speed . (Even though super hero Phantom thinks otherwise)

Amazing how nobody has actually given original poster any advice yet ??? (Apart from BS like longer fins etc which Phantom seems to think (along with loads of others) is good advice.

Nice reasoned argument from Phantom ????

Why bring kiters into it ???? Must be jealous.(They stuff us in light wind and strong now ???)

Farlo
27th April 2009, 11:38 PM
Unregistered, you're so funny!!
Did you ever read the original poster comments?
What make you think your advices are any usefull?
Have fun with seat harness, short lines and small fin.

Floyd
28th April 2009, 01:26 AM
I`ve read original posters question and all posts since. Dont think he`s ever actuall said what length haness lines he uses! He might already be using 4 feet long ones ???
How can ANBODY offer advice when you dont know his board;rig; harness line length ; fin size; foot strap placement; mast foot position or even the actual conditions he`s talking about. (Or even his weight /ability. Could be Antoine having a joke ??? or a beginner ??


Defeats me but its created an interesting thread !!!

If he wasn`t confused I`ll bet he is now!!!

Good sailing. And kiting !!!!

Screamer
28th April 2009, 02:48 AM
Defeats me but its created an interesting thread !!!


Definitely.

And some moderate "racism" against kiters can't be that bad ;-)

phantom
28th April 2009, 05:28 AM
Inuation that kiters are Dumb. (Even though they now hold outright speed record for sailing craft and were first to break 50 k barrier)

Has anyone met a smart one? When you are comparing bicycles and oranges, the V8 turbo always is faster than the pushbike, but it isnt because the driver has brains or the ability to engage them. I think you would fit in well as a kiter.

Direct insult to freeride kit. (Junk)
I have a good friend who happens to be a freeride board. I asked this freeride board and got no reply, so take it he was not offended. I even drove over him. No response. He is a bit slow so I waited. Still no response. Therefore, Freeride was not insulted I called him junk on this forum. Anyway I was just about to suggest you should take up kiting because windsurfing seems too hard for you.


Sort of derails your BS arguments further !!


No the freeride board has no rails to start with. Sounds like kiting is for you.


Meanwhile I`ll stick to my rules of thumb; smaller fins when its windy + rough. Go on free ride when its time and wave kit when its more fun. Think I`ll stick with seat harness for slalom/speed . (Even though super hero Phantom thinks otherwise)


You go freeride while more capable skilled windsurfers go fast on slalom kit. I guess at your age you have to watch the amount of adrenaline in the system. Sounds like kiting is for you. You can practice with some rope hanging from tree branch. Just as hard but you dont get wet. But nobody is watching so it has a downside. Yes kiting for you.


Amazing how nobody has actually given original poster any advice yet ??? (Apart from BS like longer fins etc which Phantom seems to think (along with loads of others) is good advice.

All good advice from people who actually have experience with the problems mentioned by he original poster. Advice which might not work on freeride junk. You are very defensive of your freeride junk. Have considered a kiting career. You sound like you would be very good at it.


Nice reasoned argument from Phantom ????

I really think you should take up kiting. Its for you.


Why bring kiters into it ???? Must be jealous.(They stuff us in light wind and strong now ???)
They dont stuff us in light wind or strong. Far from it. Only those who use freeride junk cant get going before kites. Strong wind- some skilled kiters choose to risk their lives and that of others. Sounds like thats for you... kiting... its calling you Unregistered.

Phantom
28th April 2009, 05:42 AM
Sorry I was pissed when I wrote last post.
Just half so when I wrote others.

Unregistered
28th April 2009, 05:46 AM
Its ok Phantom; you cant help being an Arsehole.

Philip
28th April 2009, 07:09 AM
I agree with Jesper's advice in post #2 although I personally use a seat harness and always will. That probably has something to do with my build which in turn affects the fine tune of the footstraps, boom height and body position when sailing like hiking forward.

Gestalt
28th April 2009, 12:00 PM
Unless you are doing some dedicated speed runs off the wind your probably doing <30 knots B & F, rough water even slower, why bother with slalom kit ? Starboard practically invented freeride (Carve) and made a lot of smart windsurfers happy, except for the weekend warriors who think they need a slalom board, that they don't know how to use and will soon break, they can't be helped.

Farlo
28th April 2009, 02:41 PM
Well we know the original poster is using a Sonic 100 with 6.6 m˛ race sail, SF32 fin, 24" lines, seat and occasionally waist harness. Also he likes his gear, wants to compete in local events and doesn't want any freeride or wave board. He probably picked all advices he needs and left the thread a few pages ago. Interestingly nobody recommended the iSonic, supposedly more confort/controlable in rough water. Would it make any difference?

Floyd
28th April 2009, 02:53 PM
Totally agree with Gestalt.


Futura outsells Sonic 10 to 1 (at least ) Its for a reason.And to be fair even Futura isn`t easiest board in rough water/high wind.

Its somwhat of an insult to most sailors to adopt the attitudes prevalent on here.(And poor old kiters; what have they said ?)

Spent last season at Leucate. (Taking photographs mainly ) Perhaps on any given (sailing) day freeride/wave/ freestyle outumbered slalom 20 to 1; with the freestyle impressing the most !!! Mentioned it before on here ; I could not believe performance some folk are getting from freestyle (seemingly too big) boards (with tiny fins) ; both handling chop ;initial acceleration and getting upwind.(Initially leaving everything)

Its high time we had objective testing. Just how much extra board speed would an Isonic have over a Futura in 25 knots on flat water; let alone in chop. Suspect its totally down to rider.

Personally stopped enjoying that totally committed on rail style a good few years back.
Now I`d rather get nearer centre line and "play".But I`m an old git. Not convinced I go any slower for it but I was probably slow to start with.

Good winds for everyone. Including kiters.

Farlo
28th April 2009, 05:05 PM
That's good point. You ear people saying that they get better overall performance from their freeride/freestyle or surpercross gear, rough water or not. But do you see competitors using other than slalom gear in race events, or even winning some? 20 years ago Eric Thiémé revolutionized course racing by being the first to use a slalom board. Is there another revolution coming up?

Waiting4wind
28th April 2009, 06:10 PM
I'm not sure why there needs to be such a debate over Slalom vs. Freeride. If you want to ride a free ride, fine go for it, but why knock the slalom gear.

I've owned wave, freeride and slalom. I've dropped the free ride as I found it to be redundant in my quiver. Modern slalom gear is getting easier to ride and personally once you get your slalom gear tuned it can be quite smooth in choppy water. When I'm dialed and powering off the fin the board flies over the chop, peak to peak, but back off and things can go pear shape.
Tuning a slalom board /rig is a much finer process where small adjustments (sail tune, fin, straps, mast track) can make a big difference. So unless you've worked through the process it's hard (pointless) to give advice. Generalisations that may work on softer railed free ride gear and recreational sails are too course for tuning slalom gear. Personally, for me, the tuning process is part of the challenge / enjoyment of slalom gear, it's always rewarding to get noticeable jump in performance by doing a few tweaks.

Unregistered
29th April 2009, 09:46 PM
I`ll stick to tuning my guitar and sailing freeride whilst all those slalom sailors are waiting4wind (tuning) on the beach.

Nobody was knocking slalom.

Point was there are times for us all when freeride/wave is faster.

For some (many ?) freeride is always faster.(And always more fun ?)

Its the superior attitude of many sailors thats the problem.Especially when talking about fine tuning which cant be done by freeride sailors;apparently.

BS is endemic in our sport.

Farlo
29th April 2009, 11:50 PM
Many tuning tips work for freeride as well, to some extend.

phantom- the real one
30th April 2009, 05:08 AM
I have superior attitude.

Go play with your guitar strings. Maybe reminds you of kiters

Unregistered
30th April 2009, 02:38 PM
Phanom is a closet kiter !!

Gestalt
30th April 2009, 04:31 PM
high wind slalom (unless going in a straight line in a bathtub) means...more exciting ride due to: sensation of speed (actually not going any faster than freeride just feels like it), high anxiety due to fear of snapping ankles, having no control of the diabolical death board (due to being an outstanding sailor who sails on the edge of course), can't jibe, crash, break board..."hmm...need more fine tuning or maybe a new fin or less downhaul..."

Farlo
30th April 2009, 04:42 PM
Starboard is claiming to have improved confort/control of the small iSonics in chops over years (see test results in French Forum). Seems that there is still a significant gap with freeride/style boards. Adversely are freeride/style boards closing the gap in overall performance (planning, average speed, max speed, upwind angle) as other posts may suggest? Do you think a good sailor could win a race event with other than well tuned slalom gear?

Gestalt
30th April 2009, 06:35 PM
Starboard is claiming to have improved confort/control of the small iSonics in chops over years (see test results in French Forum). Seems that there is still a significant gap with freeride/style boards. Adversely are freeride/style boards closing the gap in overall performance (planning, average speed, max speed, upwind angle) as other posts may suggest? Do you think a good sailor could win a race event with other than well tuned slalom gear?

So everyone who buys a slalom board is racing it in formal competition?
Anyway, I reckon Robbie Naish on a freeride board would give you and me a flogging no matter what we were riding.:D

Waiting4wind
30th April 2009, 06:36 PM
Have you (guest, Gestalt) actually ridden some any of the new slalom gear on the market, or are you basing your opinions on BS you read on the web. The slalom board I replaced my last freeride with was actually smoother in rough water.

BTW, the GPS doesn't lie. Also helps with objective tuning, just like my electronic guitar tuner!

I may even ditch my wave board, I'm sure that if I put a bigger fin on the slalom with 46" lines it should be really sweet in the bottom turns!

Farlo, absolutely a good sailor can win on a freeride board, one of our local racers does it often.

Gestalt
30th April 2009, 07:28 PM
Have you (guest, Gestalt) actually ridden some any of the new slalom gear on the market, or are you basing your opinions on BS you read on the web. The slalom board I replaced my last freeride with was actually smoother in rough water.

BTW, the GPS doesn't lie. Also helps with objective tuning, just like my electronic guitar tuner!

I may even ditch my wave board, I'm sure that if I put a bigger fin on the slalom with 46" lines it should be really sweet in the bottom turns!

Farlo, absolutely a good sailor can win on a freeride board, one of our local racers does it often.

The OP seems to be having problems in rough water with his slalom board...maybe the 'freeride' board that you replaced was a 1995 model, all boards have improved since then eh!:D

Floyd
1st May 2009, 01:17 AM
I suspect weight comes into this "discussion".

At 105 k I`m normally still on freeride (Goya FXR 105) when all around are on wave.

In lighter (relatively)winds the appropriate dedicated slalom (Isonics etc) just dont have enough float to get me home if wind dies. The appropriate "freeride" will be relatively narrower (for given volume) and will get me back when/if wind drops.

For me this also gives higher top end speed on Freeride when compared to EQUAL VOLUME slalom. (Fair enough I might sacrifice a bit of early planing; but whatever I sail is going to be slow out the blocks (if its still manageable)

Anybody who thinks current crop of freerides are slow is simply out of touch.I`m also afraid its an area where starboard have been left behind a bit. Fanatic Hawk (freeride) is easily as fast as Futura (probably quicker) but is just so sweet when it gets gnarly. (My old S stype (126) cant compete in either speed or manouvres.)

I haven`t raced for 15 years but wear GPS all time.(Except when on Evo 90) But then again who does race ??? Not witnessed any slalom comps for years. Anywhere ! (North Uk;Canaries or Leucate) (PWA once a year at sotavento ???)

Vmax(10 sec) on FXR (105) 38kts (5.7 Saber) (coast and rough)
Vmax (10 sec)on Hawk 126 36kts (6.2 Saber) (coast)
And both boards still "playfull". (straps in central positions, never use outboard !)

I dont believe there are any boards available which could give ME more speed and yet be so "playful". If there were one I`d have it !!!


Tried Futura too dedicated . Isonic ?? Far too dedicated;too much width for volume for prevalent conditions I sail in. (ie too dedicated).

I suspect Isonic 122 would give better "average" speed and would go up wind better ??? But its 75cm wide ??? Its just not designed for use I`d be putting it to.
To compete in control stakes(width) I`d be on Sonic 100 but thats just too small !!!
Dont for a moment think modern "freeride" kit is in any way inferior/slower. Its just designed for another purpose/rider !! Hard gnarly windy conditions are easy on correct kit? Why make it hard ???

Screamer
1st May 2009, 06:07 AM
Floyd

I can understand you like your freeride gear. Just before you post something like this:

"But then again who does race ??? Not witnessed any slalom comps for years. Anywhere ! (North Uk;Canaries or Leucate) (PWA once a year at sotavento ???)"

you should check things out first:
2008 - six slalom events
http://www.pwaworldtour.com/index.php?id=674
2009 - eight slalom events
http://www.pwaworldtour.com/index.php?id=894

I'm sure one could find a ton of other events at national levels.

Floyd
1st May 2009, 02:50 PM
Hi Screamer
No I dont have to check anything out. I was commenting about the actual situation at all the sailing venues I visit.

Last season there were NO SLALOM events at northern UK coastal venues. Not sure about south,but not many.(Apologies if somebody organised one;I must have missed it)

There was one event in/around Leucate. (probably windiest place in Europe)

There was one event at Sotavento. (And this was an International event for sponsored/established sailors)

We might like to think racing is successful (in any guise) but in reality there is very very little going on in comparison "B+F" /freesailing. I accept there is some at local "sailing clubs" (eg Rutland) but the days of slalom events/ point to point racing at a local (national) coastal venues have long gone. (In UK)(There used to be lots)

A sailor wanting to compete nowadays must be willing to travel miles and miles; searching out the events.

Dont really think you can include PWA events; dont think I`d be allowed to compete if I turned up at next Sotavento event. (We aren`t even allowed to sail where event takes place, before during or after ; its a kitesurfing zone rest of year)

How many sailors have/do actually compete in slalom ?? Under 1% ???
And the number is dropping !!!!

But actually how many (%) want to ???

I`m not knocking anybody that does compete..(or their kit choice)

mim
1st May 2009, 04:31 PM
Hi Screamer

I`m not knocking anybody that does compete..(or their kit choice)

Hi Floyd,

does not actually look like that!
I am one of the slalom gear guys. I do not perform too good, not racing on regulary basis. And the things you are saying about the volume and width of slalom...for me it is like that...

I was sailing my iS 122 last weekend in condition my my S-Type which slightly narrower, would be way to difficult to go so nice as the iS. what is true for you might not be true for other.

PS: Your gps-speed looks really good, I mean 38 knots on a freeride kit with no-cam freemove sail....that's good.

Keep going!
Ciao Michal.

Unregistered
1st May 2009, 05:18 PM
Apologies if it appears I`m knocking any kit; I`m not.

If you freeride use freeride kit.

I really dont think there are any benefts from freeriding dedicated "slalom".

And there is much more similarity to wave kit (from freeride) when you do get chance to use it.

End of day each to his own.

Personaly dont like term "freeride" it does not do justice to what is fast kit by any standards.(And no cam sails are far more tuneable than cammed )

Saber is no cam freerace.A few years ago saw Guy Cribb do 39knots with a NP Expression !!! (GPS)
Again dont underestimate modern "freeride" no cam sails. They are faster than 99% of sailors.

Waiting4wind
2nd May 2009, 05:04 PM
BTW, my free ride was a 2006, but the particular brand makes slappy little _uckers.

I fully subscribe to no cam sails in smaller sizes. In fact I use NP Sabre's for my smaller slalom sails. For quite a while i was using a NP Search (power wave sail) on my small slalom boards. Very tunable sail and enough power to keep the board nailed to the water.

No doubt you can go fast on most gear in the right conditions. One of our local sailors regularly clocks 42+ knots on SB wave boards.

The Hawks are definitely a fast board my mate regularly gives me a hard time on his. JP Supersports are up there as well as well. We regularly demo each others gear at our local sailing spot. Quite often there are surprises from both the freeride and slalom camps.

Unregistered
3rd May 2009, 12:15 AM
waist harnesses are faster,
i am faster with them, my friends are faster with them,
really, they just plain are ..
sailing a futura 93 in kihei maui last week at pavilions one day, a tabou da curve ( freeride) the next.
Chop conditions and sail size identical both days. the futura although not a pure "slalom" board when pressed sails thru the chop better.

shredulato

Unregistered
3rd May 2009, 05:23 AM
Waist harness faster. Absolute BS.

Ask Antoine; Bjorn. Robby Finian..

If you are faster in waist its because you aren`t using seat properly.. !!!

Unregistered
3rd May 2009, 05:28 AM
Its lke the LeeD days !!!

BS BS and more BS

Futura good in chop ??? Have you sailed one ??? (Whilst not smoking !)

Unregistered
4th May 2009, 07:12 PM
Sailed the futura 93, 111, and 125 last week in maui, and one freeride the tabou 97 da curve.
liked the futura's better, not that the tabou was terrible.

good in chop well i guess "good" is a relative term.

the bigger hulls were not as smooth as the smaller hulls ( no brainer there) the 93 was nice .

P.S. i only "smoke" when I am on fire.

shredulato

Waiting4wind
5th May 2009, 05:13 PM
Its lke the LeeD days !!!

BS BS and more BS

Futura good in chop ??? Have you sailed one ??? (Whilst not smoking !)

Hi LeeD is that you? It must be you, you've managed to keep this thread going for pages.....Holy smokes, you're back...

Unregistered
5th May 2009, 09:08 PM
Who is Ask Antoine and Robby Finian ?

Unregistered
6th May 2009, 06:29 PM
freeride vs slalom? again? freeride and slalom share so much in common. The reality is that most board designers dont know how to make a good slalom board. So they have to do a freeride and slalom. Just creates confusion and these silly arguments. A good racer can make pretty much anything go fast. Difference in boards is on the starts, upwind and around the turns. Usually not much difference in top end. Good board will just work for slalom if the right size is chosen and everything else is tuned.

You guys claiming big speeds on no cam should probably take your GPS out of your wetsuits. Or before you believe those numbers get another 4 or 5 similar runs to back it up. Otherwise you are probably kidding yourselves. And really, a good race sail would be faster almost always (if you really had the skill to go that fast). Always makes me laugh when I hear "I did 40kts" on a freeride board in 15kts...

Maui? Chop? hahaha. Maui sailors think that if it works there it will work everywhere. Too much maui wowie in the system. Maui is super smooth chop compared to lots of places in the rest of the world. I've sailed boards on Maui that work great there but are shite in other places. And I've sailed JP slalom which are shite there and everywhere else. Looks like after 5 revisions they have fixed a few things though. Antoine is good enough to make it go.

seat harnesses are good for fast on flat water. Higher hook (waist) is more comfy in rough water. You can decouple from the sail easier. The pros use both. Dont delude yourself that they use one or the other. In chop, waist is a good thing. Long lines same. Need to get used to them and then you cant go back... Short will feel bad forever after.

Unregistered
6th May 2009, 08:42 PM
Frank bethwaites book "high performance sailing" talks about waves ( chop)in warm and cold water.
Cold water "waves" are worse. They are shorter in distance between waves and steeper in nature then warm water waves.

Cold water areas at produce a thin warm layer in say late summer separated from the cold layer by a thermocline .
T.
The thermocline in cold water places acts as a false bottom that waves break on as if it was a solid bottom.

P.s. who is lee d?
shredulato

Floyd
7th May 2009, 05:01 AM
Unregistered (freeride Versus slalom etc)

A) Nobody claimed 40knots; it was/is a goal.

B) I have trak logs for all speeds I mentioned. These speeds were not from the GPS directly; which can/does give optimistic figures. (spikes etc) I wear 2 units.(Etrex 301 and older Garmin 12 channel) Neither under wetsuit or on boom !!!
I use GPSAR (Action Replay) to remove spikes and then its possible to see which speeds are a good representation. (software removes speeds (not just spikes) with unrealistic aceleration; ie when you achieve a good speed its always the end product of a fairly constant acceleration. (you dont jump to a good speed) All my be speeds have been achieved well off the wind. (Again data from AR;my fastest angle is around 120 degrees)
If you want confirmation post your email and I`ll send you the trak logs.


40 knots on small freeride and nocam sails is possible. I do agree its more achievable with cammed/ speed/ race sail. (A few years back a mate of mine did 42 knots over 500 metres in a UK speed comp with an Axis 272 and a twin cam sail. (its in results somewhere)
(Again post your email and I`ll give you details)

It would be utterly stupid/ pointless to claim speeds which were unrealistic.

Think its even more so to say someone cant do something just becuse you cant do it youreslf.(Or havent tried)

Ice yachts achieve around 60 MPH with no cam sails !!!

HARNESS LINES
Nobody has stated obvious? Surely its a lot to do with length of your arms ! If I used 30 inch harness lines I dont think I could reach boom; especially in waist harnes ???

Good Winds Everybody

Floyd
7th May 2009, 05:04 AM
PS
Leed was a poster from years ago. He was renowned for being contraversial.Some would say he talked BS. He actually made Forum interesting and made some good points. His contributions (IMO) are missed.

Floyd
7th May 2009, 05:09 AM
PPS
Unregisted actually makes some good points aswell .(Besides discrediting what is possible;(just; I hope) ie 40k freeride + No Cam)

Waiting4wind
9th May 2009, 04:27 PM
As I mentioned earlier, one of our local sailors regularly does over 40 knots on a wave board. But hit is in super smooth water at Sandy Point in Australia... These are verified tracks you will find on GPS Speed forum.

Harness lines are an interesting thing. I used 22" lines for many years and they even felt a little long for my arms. But I was told I needed to go long to go fast. So over the last 2 years I've gradually increased my lines to about 26-27" and it has made a notable difference to my speed. I jumped on my mates gear recently on 22" lines and it was almost un sailable for me, felt like my face was pressed into the sail.

I can't work it out, either my arms have stretched or my stance has changed to accommodate the longer lines. I have another mate who uses 30" lines and he is much shorter than me. So I suspect its all to do with the stance and rig set up...I don't understand it but the longer lines do work.

What did happen to LeeD????

Screamer
9th May 2009, 07:48 PM
I think LeeD is posting on US iWindsurf forum, not sure. Some of the threads here were real fun a few years back.

However, in recent years another interesting character surfaced in virtual windsurf space, known as Swiftsailor, Sinbad, and many other aliases. Often seen as an example of a split personality disorder, and often contributing to some hilarious discussions ;-)

Waiting4wind
10th May 2009, 05:59 AM
I think LeeD is posting on US iWindsurf forum, not sure. Some of the threads here were real fun a few years back.



Maybe he's retired now, limiting his posting to just one forum in his older years!