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Screamer
17th August 2009, 11:52 AM
"Starboard iSonics took the top 3 places of the PWA Overall Slalom ranking in 2008. Over the last two seasons, every event was won on an iSonic, under the feet of Kevin Pritchard, Bjorn Dunckerbeck and Antoine Albeau. Antoine never won a single PWA Slalom event until he switched to iSonics. Bjorn hasn't won a single event since then either, until he too switched to iSonics last August." etc.....

Is it just me, or this sound a bit ..... strange (to say it politely).

Don't get me wrong, I like Starboard boards, and use 3 at the moment, iS is one of them. But they are still using ex team rider AA in their marketing? Let's see:

1. Not one pwa event this season was won "on iSonics under the feet of Starboard riders"
2. AA is consistently beating everyone on JP boards (I guess he would do the same on ANY boards)
3. Bjorn is far from his old "terminator" self. He will fight for third this year.
Facts.

I can easily see how some sailors can be put off by the above (and this is from an old Starboard customer).
The results aren't speaking for themselves any more.
So tone it down, please.

Floyd
17th August 2009, 03:06 PM
There has always been a tendency for Starboard to be optimistic with their claims; I really dont think they have to be this way at all. Their products (and results) can speak for themselves. Read through website and there are other examples.IMHO its becoming damaging to Starboard. Agree with Screamer totally.

viking
17th August 2009, 03:15 PM
This has been already widely debated in the "July 1st" topic

When I read the post from Screamer, it looks that many people have been shocked by the "AA has never won before joigning Starboard" that was totally inadequate and insulting for a great Champion. But OK, it was a mistake and I think it won't be repeated in the future.

But glad to see that windsurfing is a sport where it is still the rider that makes the result!

Floyd
18th August 2009, 02:49 PM
Just a mistake !!! No it was BS !!! But you are right Viking ;no problem we should be used to it.Our sport is full of it !!!

Boards that cant be measured objectively; stats that are wrong; sail sizes that are wrong. Corrupt magazines/tests/advertising.Year on year claims for improved kit. List is endless !!!

Its exactly the reason why so few people are coming into the sport. They think they just have to buy so much gear !!!! Look on some posters list of "Toys" on end of posts on threads. Whats that about. ???
BS

mim
18th August 2009, 05:05 PM
Hey Floyd,

the marketing is a bit too much I agree. But i wanted to make a small note on the list of the material of some posters...

I added it that everybody can see what I am riding and if anybody is interested in my opinion on what I ride he can contact me directly and not write post on please help on this and that...because there is at least every week a new thread asking a question that has already been answered many times.

So that was just shortly why to mention what toys each one of us is actually riding...just that you can know how relieble are the answers.

Have a good day on the water!
Ciao Michal.

Floyd
18th August 2009, 06:32 PM
Mim
Manufacturers realised years ago there was just not the mass market to sell us just one or two boards.They actively promote us to buy as many as possible and as frequently as possible. (look at Quad revolution !!!Twinzers last year !!!) To my mind some of us just play straight into this and then actively promote the situation by listing "The Toys" on here. I`ve been posting on here years and it was the sponsorerd sailors who started the trend; and for a reason.To normalise owning 5 boards !!! Great marketing!!!
Its exactly why there are so few newcomers to sport !!!
Newcomers look at investment/return ratio and go away and buy a jetski !!! Its cheaper !!!
Have you seen what second hand boards are worth !!!(Not worth really)
I came to WS (in 1981) to get away from complexity of racing dinghies. We now have more kit than any racing dinghy.
Fine if it suits you but its just not relevant to be publishing all your "toys" on here.
Its just another part of the hype/BS.. We just play our part like good consumers without even realising we are been manipulated.

As I said our sport is endemic with BS...

Do you really need 5 boards to get max TOW/enjoyment ???

The boards we own/sail have nothing to do with the accuracy/helpfullness of posts ???

mim
18th August 2009, 09:51 PM
Well,

I will just correct some points here.

I made the decision to buy the boards and I paid them. On the other hand...I am not so stupid to buy any new in the next few years.

Secondly...I know a lot of people new to windsurfing some of them tried it once with me and they do not share my policy and they are the typical one or two board surfers...and that is allright (in fact I am minority around here at my place)...I have more TOW because of my biggest slalom boards...and I would say factor 2 more (excluding holidays where you usualy rent material)

The smallest slalom I have I had on the water not so often at home...but once I go for a trip it is the most ridden board...because I go where the wind blows (and suprisingly I like riding slalom boards...and i know it because for two years I were on freerider on holidays and I just find the feeling different and the slalom one I like a bit more).

The PureAcid...that is the only bad choice I did about a board...I would have the range covered with the EVO easily...but I bought the evo after PA as soon as I realised I can't ride the PA so often...and as you said to sell it it would be a big economical loss for me so why would I do it?

And If you don't like the list of my toys...it is your problem! I like my boards, all of them ... I find them extremely expensive but right now I have the money and in a pretty short time I will not...so I rather bought them when I had ebough and when there is not enough I will stick with necessary minimum.

And finally I mostly do agree with you in the marketing problem...but your arguments on newcomers are wrong...usually you do not start a sport because you decide to...someone have to introduce you...your friend, parents, TV spot or I don't what...

If you see children or young people taking courses on some big rental places...surely nobody is telling them...hey try it but be aware that you will have to own 5 boards...my personal opinion is that the sport is way more difficult than other...just like kitting...every kiter tells you after a weekend course of kitting you can ride both directions (planning speed) and make turns...when you think about windsurfing you will be very good to learn it in two weeks (and it is extremely optimistic...and people does not have the patience) and for learning you must have a big board...and when I was talking about my friends (one board surfers)...they all have 100-110 liter boards...for a beginer forget it!!!

I know one (he has a patience problem)...learned on a big board (180 liters) and as he got back from haliday...without asking he bought a board 110 liter...I was with him once on the water...after 10 minutes he gave up...this is not about the what you are trying to tell me.

--> JETSKI is easy, windsurfing is a hell of a different story, and that is what it makes good!

PS: by the way what it is that you want more people in windsurfing...I find the sport absolutely the best when the beach is not crowded at all...friend yes but only a couple of them!

Ciao Michal.

Floyd
18th August 2009, 10:35 PM
Mim
Calm down !!!
Nobody said anything about not liking your boards our asking you to justify your choices. I have one of boards mentioned !!! And lots more besides.
Point is why on earth do folk have to proclaim it to rest of world.????
Are your answers any more relevant if you own a Isonic ??? Of course they are not. You are simply continuing a tradition started by Starboard themselves !!!
Sport has developed to point where we need a different board (or Starboard like us to think we do) for every windstrength and water condition; and if you dont do this you are missing out on some aspect. Which is BS.

Its becoming almost a fashion item !!!!

Shall I list my wetsuit and fins and booms ??? And my 17 sails ????

Its merely another example of BS the sport can well do without !!!!

Toys
GasGas 300/Westfield Sport/Fireblade ????? Oh and a cart load of winndsurf gear dating from 1987 to present !!!! Including a couple of Starboards !!!!

mim
19th August 2009, 12:54 AM
Hi Floyd,

I answered the question but it might got lost in all the writing. I write it because that way people can easily see which my answers on the forum are reliable and which are suggestions...

It mean if I answer on real volume of iSonic 122 and that for me it is a semisinker...I have experience about it. If I write something similar about futura...it might not be exactly spot on...that is all!

In fact I thought it will help the people here to sort all the info contained in the forum.

By the way, I do not think you need different boards for for different conditions (not that much)...but I find a difference between slalom and freeride (I compare now a JP x-cite ride and iSonic...and there is the difference big)...and than it is your choice what board and how many do you want/need.

Ciao Michal.

Screamer
19th August 2009, 02:25 AM
Calm down guys, I usually enjoy reading your posts, and I can see what is it that's upsetting Floyd. A ton of gear can be offputting for beginners, but that's not the only reason for ws not being a mass sport.
On the other hand, if you do want to enjoy to the max and optimize for specific conditions, and want to sail from 2bf to 8bf gales, then you need AT LEAST 3-4 boards, if not more (and that's not taking into account different disciplines - you can race slalom or shred waves in the same winds trength). Look at all the different gear sport fishermen (or photographers) have - it's up to you to choose.

Fair winds

Edit: So Floyd, I know where you're coming from. But the answer to your question "Do you really need 5 boards to get max TOW/enjoyment ???" is maybe no and maybe yes. Depending on what you want and so many other factors.

But back to bashing *board for less than convincing marketing tactics ;-)))))))))))))

Philip
19th August 2009, 07:16 AM
The way I see things is that *Board with its focus on wider and thinner boards is actually offering kit that has a broader sail carrying capacity than the traditional shape boards. This is what they say and from my experience is what we get. For many of us it is entirely feasible to do one board with multi-sails and fins for the most sailed conditions. I say good on them.

Deja Vu
19th August 2009, 09:50 AM
Starboard isn't the only manufacturer full of BS! Take a look at the Slalom V blurb for JP boards - "Antoine tried the Slalom V boards and knew he had to do something so he signed with us". That implies that the Slalom V boards are so much better than the Isonics that AA had no alternative but to switch - yeah right! It was all about "Show me the money!" I can understand why Starboard is a little aggressive with its marketing after that crap. I'm sure Starboard paid AA significant funds so it might as well get as much traction from his name as it can.

Farlo
20th August 2009, 12:36 AM
Yes but... Screamer is right. Sounds like Starboard is short of arguments, while iSonic's have been consistently reported as far more accessible than JP's for the average sailor (which is less exciting of course).

Hi Floyd, I don't see your point. Manufacturers are always claiming the (ever) wider wind range of their boards/sails. Today you can still get a lot of fun from a small quiver. But some of us are willing to try&buy new gear while keeping favourite old stuff. So we end up with full garages although using the same one board and two sails most of the time.

Floyd
20th August 2009, 01:30 AM
Hi Farlo
Must be making my point badly because I totally agree with your last post.
My point is manufacturers work very hard to get us to buy lots of kit; much of which overlaps. (boards and rigs) and some of which is almost redundant.
Look at situation with rigs/masts.I`m pretty sure some mathematician (salesman/marketing person ??/) sat down and calculated just how to get us to buy largest number of masts possible. I take 5 masts to cover 7 sails !!!; and my biggest is still a compromise !!!

Point with listing our kit is its just another way of "normalising" having shed loads of kit !!!
Look at Remi`s posts; he lists 22 boards !!!! How does that work !!!!
I struggle choosing between 100 and 125 litres most days ..!!!(And I always think I made wrong choice!!!)

Windy this work so dont care anymore. Keep up the BS Starboard; we all love it really !!!

yankiwi
20th August 2009, 06:13 PM
I am new to windsurfing (started about 9months ago). I am now totally addicted. But I gotta say at first I wondered if it was worth the trouble. For a newbie, the different range of kit and combinations of sails/boards/fins that do or don't work together and do or don't work in particular wind strengths, wave sizes, and general alignment of the moon with other planets in the solar system is nuts.
And retailers are often no help, I can't tell you how many times I got advice, that knowing what I know now, was total BS and trying to sell me something that was not suited to my level. Problem for retailers is that they are hungery and not thinking long term.
I believe one of the reasons windsurfing is not as popular as it used to be is that the industry has made it way too complicated. Combine that with the fact that it is not easy to learn the sport anyway (many of you who have sailed for years might have forgotten this :-) ) and it is tough to get into windsurfing.
Anyone want to buy some of the 'mistakes' I was bought in the last 9 months? I have some great deals going :-).
I suspect the industry has largely given up on bringing in new people and is determined to milk already addicted windsurfers for everything they can get. That is the only logic I can apply to the way gear is developed and marketed.

Ken
21st August 2009, 03:49 AM
yankiwi,

You are correct, windsurfing was uncomplicated in the early years (1984 for me). As for the dedicated inland sailors in those days, we had a long board and a glass short board and maybe 3 or 4 sails. Beginners weren't much different from the dedicated sailors so it was simple for them to get started and not be overwhelmed by the equipment. We all sailed one of a half dozen or so long board that were on the market with their 6.3 m regatta sail.

Would I go back to those years? No way. Yes it is now complicated with hundreds of choices, but it IS SO MUCH BETTER.

In the beginning, there was only ONE car, but now look at the choices. Progress and marketing, that's the way it goes.

The industry hasn't given up on new people. To the contrary, learning is so much easier today with all the stable, wide beginner boards. On the other hand, windsufing just doesn't appeal to the masses, plus there are so many other things competing for our recreational free time.

To find the right stuff for you, you just have to talk to people, on the beach, at the shop or on line like you are doing now.

Farlo
21st August 2009, 07:06 PM
Yes it takes trials and errors to find what works best for you, but it is worth the pain, time and money. Guess many of us spend a lot in the first years and then stabilize quiver and only replace most used board/sails from time to time.

Hello Floyd, redundancy is not only due to manufacturers. They have boards every ten liters and sails every 0.5 sqm in order to offer the best combinations for your weight & wind conditions. Now there is always one combination that works best in a given wind strength. So if you want to cover from 3 to 7 Bft you may need five boards. That's why some end up with three freeride/slalom plus two freestyle/wave boards and sails to go with. But this is up to you. If you're not in racing you can still compromise on two boards and three/four sails. This been said, we are not always reasonable and sometimes play the game manufacturers like us to.

yankiwi
23rd August 2009, 02:38 PM
You are right. It has been worth the time and pain. I am now very much addicted. I just need to convince my wife it is worth the money - since I now want the next size smaller board (I already own 3 after 9 months).

Farlo
23rd August 2009, 04:55 PM
Welcome in the family. There is a tendancy to go smaller after a few months because you ordinary start big. However the next size down may overlap significantly with the board just above. Look at the recommended sail range. It shall bring you ~1.5 extra sqm down, with ~1 sqm overlap. Ideally you have just one sail to bridge two boards. Don't get me wrong: ten liters and a few cm OFO make a difference on water, but certainly one of two adjacent boards is better suited for you an your spot. You can also compensate for moderate volume or width variations with some extra tuning and adequate fins.

michelb
26th August 2009, 03:51 AM
Hello All,
My case is inverse. I start in 1982 with a Carrera and Race 6,3 sail, then I quit and in 1995 start again as all of you loading a lot of Board bags boom bags and sail bags + fins etc...... in the roof of my little Fiat Cinquecento from 1996. Was very funny to see ( and think) that is more money over the roof than the car itself...... Then Marry......

Today I just have a wife, 5 kids, a Van and a Formula 161 Board, with 2 sails( Vapor 10 mt and 11 mts), 1 boom, 2 masts (one for each sail)+ 2 fins (Drake R19 + Select R03 DC Wide). With this quiver I can decently sail in almost all conditions form 10 to 25 knots. That is amazing. I sell my anemometer and now if is less than 15 knots ===>11 mts + Select if is more ( whitecaps), =====> 10 mts with Drake R19 ( thinking seriously in a Debo R13+6. ( half price for all the quiver than before).

This year I probably keep my board for another year and buy a 2nd Vapor 10 mts ( 2nd hand as a spare because my 10 is the most used). I know some of you think Formula is another sport, and nearly not windsurfing...... but it gives me a lot of TOW and fun. That is the really important thing when you have less time and a big non windsurfing family.

Saludos desde Chile!!
Thanks SB for the Formula.

Jean-Marc
26th August 2009, 05:56 AM
Fine if it suits you but its just not relevant to be publishing all your "toys" on here.
Its just another part of the hype/BS.. We just play our part like good consumers without even realising we are been manipulated.

As I said our sport is endemic with BS...

Do you really need 5 boards to get max TOW/enjoyment ???

The boards we own/sail have nothing to do with the accuracy/helpfullness of posts ???

Floyd,

Looks like you're a fan of *B marketing conspiracy theory or what ? Please find below some of my answers to your *B BS claims as follows:

1) As a consumer, I never felt being manipulated by *B to buy their board. Nobody puts a gun over my head to buy their gear. It has always been my free choice to buy all the gear I wanted for what purpose I intended to do. Moreover, I do not agree at all that our windsurfing sport is endemic with BS. For example, you cannot go wavesailing with a Serenity obviously...!

2) Do I need 5 boards to get max TOW ? Yes if considering max TOW as getting maximum performance as of 2 knots of wind up to 45 knots, from dead flat water up to 2 m high swell:
- Acid 62 covers wind range 20-45 knots with 3.3-5.4 m2 sails for wave sailing and hardcore freeriding;
- Kombat 86 covers wind range 12-25 knots with 5.4-6.9 m2 sails for freeriding and light wind wavesailing;
- iSonic 53 speed covers wind range 12-22 knots with 6.6 & 7.7 m2 sails for speedsailing;
- Hypersonic 105 covers wind range 7-15 knots with 8.2 & 11 m2 sails for slalom and mini-formula sailing;
- Serenity covers wind range 2-7 knots with 11 m2 sail for ultra light wind cruising and long distance racing.

Do I want to go back to my first 1980 windsurfer in order to get the same max TOW as that of today? No way, that's BS all the way ! That antique barge had a ridiculously tiny wind range and sloppy performance.

3) "The boards we own/sail have nothing to do with the accuracy/helpfullness of posts".

Really? Sorry Floyd, it does matter simply because you don't know what you're talking about if you don't have at least tested such boards first hand. Let me show you 2 examples. No BS, but plain old first hand experience :
- Is it possible to sail Acid 62 in < 20 knots of wind on flat water? Yes, it's possible for my 65 kg. Is it fun? Not for my taste, other boards are way funnier on dead flat water like the iSonic speed gun.
- Is it possible to sail the Serenity in high wind? Yes, it is, see 2007 old report with a 4.x m2 sail in 30 knots wind by Roger. Is it fun? Not for my taste, I would rather choose my Acid 62 + 4.2/4.7 m2 sail in such strong wind and waves at my local spot.

Cheers!

JM

ogie1154
26th August 2009, 03:21 PM
There has always been a tendency for Starboard to be optimistic with their claims; I really don't think they have to be this way at all. Their products can speak for themselves. Read through website and there are other examples.IMHO its becoming damaging to Starboard. Agree with Screamer totally.

Farlo
27th August 2009, 02:37 PM
TOW is one thing and enjoyment is another. Personally I see no FOW (Fun On Water) in cruising with a 11 sqm sail in 5 Knts, moreover at the expense of specific gear. I'd rather wait for a solid 12 Knts to go windsurf, should it last several weeks. Back to the topic, yes it is strange marketing. This will sound very outdated in a few months. Hopefully Starboard will come with better arguments (or better iSonic's).

viking
27th August 2009, 04:30 PM
...or better team riders!

Screamer
27th August 2009, 11:23 PM
Farlo
I'm afraid it will not sound outdated in a few months, it already sounds outdated now ;-)
I don't think there is a slalom board that stands head and shoulders above the rest, you could shuffle top 10 sailors and their sponsors, and you'll get pretty much the same results. It's in the nuances, what suits you.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the iSonics or team riders. Just with words.

Floyd
28th August 2009, 05:07 AM
JM
Hope you are better at sailing than understanding plain speaking.
Starboard do not need to put a gun to anyones head to get them to buy boards. !!! All they have to do (apparently) is make what is at best "optimistic" claims about their products. (see other threads/ loads of evidence both on this site/brochures/ etc etc where #B have "exagerated" (to put it mildly)
Amazingly there were people windsurfing before starboard started !!! And enjoying it; strong winds; light winds; everything...
The point re number of boards is probably over your head. Its NOTHING to do with how many boards you have/dont have/use/ have had; and NOTHING to do with justifying them either. I`ve had dozens of boards.Proud owner of probably 7 at moment. (And yes even I have been assimilated into the Star-borg (have a Kode and an Evo) and had a Carve upto recently. Point is its become common practice to list our numerous purchases (completing our assimilation) to help assimilate others into the "class".(Starboard started the trend)

I think Starboard boards are fantastic. (As are Mistral/F2 and Tabou) Starboard do not need to make the claims/push the boards/etc etc. Let them sell on merit. There are many sailors becoming alienated to the position Starboard take for this very reason. (The assimliation reference is not mine BTW; borrowed from another site)

Anyone who buys anything has been manipulated in one way or another.The world can be a little more subtle than putting guns to heads !!! For anyone who can read the evidence is abundant that Starboard do over play the hype game !!! Its obvious but that does not stop the boards being good !!! But there ARE other brands who also make some fantastic products. If we aren`t carefull there wont be !!!!

Read 2010 brochure.Apparently one of the boards is 15% more efficient than last year !!!!
How`s that calculated when manufacturers (including Starboard) cant even give accurate volumes/weights or sizes ??? Its simple BS/Hype.
Perhaps you believe everything you want to believe; the rest of us dont know what they are talking about when we question it !!!

And yes ; in some respects it does help to have (or had) a board you are giving specific advice about but
a) That does not preclude good advice coming from those that haven`t
b) Why list all the lot ??? If question is about Acid; fine include fact that you have one but dont then go on to proclaim to world you also have a freestyle and a freeride and a formula and a slalom etc etc. (Remi actually lists 22 boards !!!! it becomes meaningless !!! except to say to everyone " yep,its allright to go out and buy loads of kit " )

Its time #Board adopted plain speaking; lost the claims and dropped the BS !!! (I`m not the only one saying it !!!! ; read other threads !!!)

Dare I say it on here. My favourite board ??? Mistral Syncro RD 124. What do they say about that in their brochures ???? Have a LOOK !!!!No claims; No Hype just simple description.Then read Starboards brochure. (if you`ve got a few hours to spare)

Unregistered
28th August 2009, 05:35 AM
JM Wrote
- Acid 62 covers wind range 20-45 knots with 3.3-5.4 m2 sails for wave sailing and hardcore freeriding;
- Kombat 86 covers wind range 12-25 knots with 5.4-6.9 m2 sails for freeriding and light wind wavesailing;
- iSonic 53 speed covers wind range 12-22 knots with 6.6 & 7.7 m2 sails for speedsailing;
- Hypersonic 105 covers wind range 7-15 knots with 8.2 & 11 m2 sails for slalom and mini-formula sailing;
)- Serenity covers wind range 2-7 knots with 11 m2 sail for ultra light wind cruising and long distance racing.

Sounds great in theory

Few problems with this JM ???
A) Taking your average (mostly occuring?? (ie mode) windy day to be circa 20knots which do you choose ??? (First 3 include 20k; and probably first 4 (ie 15 knots is normally gusting to 20???)
B) There is so much overlap you are not getting any more TOW !!! Just different TOW
C) On a drive to coast what do you take ???? How bigs the van ????
D) Hypersonic does not plane in 7 knots.(We wouldnt need Formula if it did)
E) How many days do you go to justify the outlay ?? Retired ????
F) This is probably why there are so few newcomers ???? (5 boards ? 8 sails ??? and probably always on wrong kit (wind always changes through day in UK???)

But its top marks for consuming !!!!

Forget sailing in under 12 knots. Buy a kode 86 (and a canoe); covers the lot !!!

Farlo
28th August 2009, 03:24 PM
Hi Screamer, I'm afraid the same text may sit here till August 2010... Nothing wrong with team riders indeed. It will be hard work to make it happen !!
Hi Floyd, there have been long debates on Hype already. Optimistic claims are one thing. The point is: has Starboard marketing gone too far this time?
Some of us seem to think it is beyond usual "BS". (By the way, would we feel concerned if we didn't like the brand / its products to some extend?)

Jean-Marc
29th August 2009, 08:53 PM
Floyd,
unregistered,

I do really think your provocative hype/BS views against SB marketing are tainted with some misconception about what today's marketing is all about. I don't think SB is committed to spend marketing their products, year after year after year, just to stimulating, reinforcing and exacerbating people's consumerist fantasies to becoming as a bad, frantic and pernicious purpose as you describe earlier. Rather,I think your view is a typical representative of a shift in society against commoditisation, commercialisation and consumption. Your view and that of unregistered is typical of a new stance that is slowly building up in the collective consciousness of many people. Unfortunatley, you mix the marketing purpose with that of your own as seen as the "bad"/"hype"/"BS" propagating purpose that invariably results into increase in consumption, margin and profits for SB. In particular, I don't agree with you and unregistered that marketing is just about generating more commodities, just offering more choice than is needed (i.e., 5 boards is too much, too much quiver overlap, top marks for consumerism, etc...) and persuading people to consume more (look at Remi listing 22 boards).

Your satirical diatribe that marketing is only the art of persuading people to part with their cash for products they don't really want or need (Floyd cannot make his mind between the 110 and 125 L board; unregistered believes JM is always on wrong kit because 4 of them covers the 20 knots wind speed) is an unsounded misconception at the very best or total crap at the very bottom level of understanding and perception of what marketing is really conveying about. That Remis is listing 22 boards in his signature to make customers believe marketing is operating only at the promotional end of the business spectrum is a totally wrong and blinded perception. Remi is not Starboard single and only pitchman or salesman of that company. A single board quiver that covers everything is an impossible utopia to realize (i.e., Kode 86 and a canoe do-it-all magic quiver proposition of unregistered). Limiting yourself at 12 knots and telling the world that sailing below that arbitrary limit is crap is typical of a poorly blinded vision that promote there is no FOW without planing.

Guys, it's about time to remove the blinders in front of your eyes and start accepting there are many forms of enjoyment with 1, 2, 3 or 22 windsurfing boards no matters the conditions are. I see no enjoyment sitting on the beach sipping a beer while waiting for the wind to increase to 12 knots to go out windsurfing when exciting kits exists to enjoy windsurfing in 1-3 Bft wind. Moreover, not everybody has the chance to live near a spot where it blows year-long 12 knots and above. Light wind windsurfing can be as exciting, rewarding and as challenging as that of above 12 knots. And yes unregistered, I'm on full planing mode and as fast as a Formula on my hypersonic in 7 knots wind as evidenced by countless drag racing since Nov 2002. Absolutely zero need for a Formula for my light weight. Adding a 10.6 or 11m2 sail has multiplied my number of planing session by a factor of 2. Adding a Serenity has increased that number by a factor of 4, therefore vastly increasing TOW year-long. Finally, newcomers are coming in at our local spots because they are amazed by seeing me having tons of fun in all conditions. Both young guns students/scholars as well as oldies but goldies full time job holders and retirees.

Lastly but not the least, what's wrong Floyd and Viking with team riders listing all of their gear ? Sorry, I don't get it...

Cheers & happy ride on the water guys, no matter the kit and/or conditions!

JM

Deja Vu
30th August 2009, 09:40 PM
Marketing is just that "marketing". Every company has people that put the best "spin" in their employer's product. Starboard is under some pressure at the moment with AA winning for JP and a tough economy worldwide to sell its product in. The fact that AA became a winner on Starboard products is true. Did AA test the JP boards and, regardless of monetary incentives, he just "knew" he had to switch? Now that's true marketing BS! Look at AA's interview on the home page where he talks about the Isonics giving him the "edge" while he no doubt was negotiating with JP at the same time - he got paid to promote Starboard and now he gets paid to promote JP. I don't see anyone attacking him for his promotional "hype"! These guys spout BS all the time because they get paid to, but that's O,K, because it is simply promotion? Starboard's claims are no more exaggerated than what JP is claiming - they're both trying to sell product and you do what you feel you have to do to accomplish that. The more interesting question for me is just how much influence does the advertising dollar have on the magazines that test these products?

Screamer
1st September 2009, 01:36 AM
Deja Vu
It's not "everyone is doing the same, they just try to sell their products". Here is why: Starboard is using an EX TEAM RIDER (and PAST results, which are not here this season), others aren't, no matter do you like someone's marketing hype or not.

Imagine 2009 Neil Pryde brochure bragging about past Dunkerbeck results. Now add Thommen and North (alongside Starboard and Severne, his current sponsors). And that would be OK, because he used their equipment before?

JM I knew you were going to get flak because of that "hyper planing in 7kts" (happened before ;-). I know it's not impossible, just not typical, and far from optimal.

Floyd, now if we could drag Grumpf over here, THAT would be fun. Or maybe not ;-)

Floyd
1st September 2009, 02:02 AM
Hi JM
We`ll just have to agree to differ; would be nicer if you actually got my point but !!!???

I dont care how many boards folk have/use/buy beg steel or borrow.Its absolutely irrelevant.

Points is its become the norm to publish how many you own; a trend started and encouraged by starboard. Its not complicated JM !!! The reasons are for it to become the norm to over purchase in an effort to cover every condition/type of sailingIn itself almost an impossibility; but thats to the better.

Second point is ; many folk are getting a bit tired of hearing just how good Starboards are. You read it on here; see it at beach and its comes from the company.A sailor buys a Starboard (sometimes even their first board; often a Futura !!!) and low and behold its best board ever built. Fastest; best gybing etc etc when in reality its "just" a good board (like loads of others)

What starboard do best is convince the people that they do make the best boards !!! (With this Forum and site and brochures and Sponsoreds Sailors (hundreds of them)..!!!
In other words the HYPE !!! And yes it works... !!!

Not posting on this thread anymore. You`ve got the idea I dontt like hype/BS/marketing.

Windy this week; might get the kode going. (Which is one of best boards I`ve ever ridden !!!)

Good Winds

Grumpf Two

Ola_H
1st September 2009, 03:52 AM
Floyd,

I agree marketing can for sure be overwhelming sometimes - and not just in windsurfing. And I guess that this is something all brands do, it's just that Starboard both has a big program and sells a lot of boards so therefor gets noticed. But even my sail sponsors (Hot) does it and often the difference is not so big. It's more about perception. And if you look at the this forum, you will in fact seldom see advice that just "markets" the latest and greatest. Of course, marketing affects us all, but nowadays its easier than ever to also get serious advice (on forums all over).


Points is its become the norm to publish how many you own; a trend started and encouraged by starboard.

This I don't understand. I see the trend (in windsurfing as well as skiing, photography, computers and pretty much whatever) but I don't see how Starbord started it and are promoting it?

Unregistered
1st September 2009, 08:47 AM
If you want an indication of Starboard's corporate culture - How many other brands are brave enough to have an open forum where anyone can say anything? Starboard are secure enough to let people judge for themselves the bias (both positive and negative) that forum poster bring in.

How many brands have laughed and scoffed at Starboard's developments - only to join in 2 or 3 years later- Gos (which led to the awesome watertime option that is Formula sailing), Freeride Carve and Futura, Modern waveboard design ( evos), modern slalom board development from the isonics.

meanwhile Starboard runs away with the market share because they were willing to take a risk and do some r and d.

SUP is a great example - check out all the other windsurf brands jumping on board now (look who is laughing now.)


As long as Starboard keep thinking outside the box and opening up TOW envelope for everyone then they can say what they like as far as i am concerned. I am intelligent enough to make decisions for myself based on tests, test rides and visuals. Not every board Starboard make is a winner for me - but they have made so many awesome boards over the years that they are always my first port of call.

If you want to take a victim mentality then fine - you will be forced to buy 22 boards! But i reccomend taking control of your life and thinking for yourself instead.

Farlo
1st September 2009, 04:42 PM
Yes many of us like the brand / its products, otherwise we would spend less time on this forum. In what wind range you want to sail, how many boards you want to carry are mostly a matter of personal choice. There is no evidence that manufacturers push you to have a lot of boards (they rather push you to change more frequently). But even true believers in Starboard's supremacy can disagree with the references made in the iSonic section.

Unregistered
4th September 2009, 09:20 PM
By coincidence ; just noticed an old test in Boards.(Freemove/Freestyle 105 litre boards) Thought it would be exactly type of board Starboard would want to promote. Not in evidence in test. Reason (as explained by Boards); "Starboard refused to supply a board for test because Kombat wasn`t given a good report in previous test " ???

Seems a little hypocitical to then use board tests for promotion when they do get favourable coverage ??? ( magazine 08 ; January I think)

Starboard do play the marketing game.

Hot Ice
5th September 2009, 12:41 AM
Someone is probably talking BS though it is not Starboard.

I like the glossy brochures, the new designs, the hype, the excitement of a new year with new kit. I enjoy Christmas as well so maybe there is an excuse for me.

And what is this nonsense about “Corrupt magazines/tests/advertising.” ?

RonnieS
6th September 2009, 05:43 AM
By coincidence ; just noticed an old test in Boards.(Freemove/Freestyle 105 litre boards) Thought it would be exactly type of board Starboard would want to promote. Not in evidence in test. Reason (as explained by Boards); "Starboard refused to supply a board for test because Kombat wasn`t given a good report in previous test " ???

Seems a little hypocitical to then use board tests for promotion when they do get favourable coverage ??? ( magazine 08 ; January I think)

Starboard do play the marketing game.


Yeh, what was all that about?
Leaving boards out of tests....feet, shoot, own...

mark h
6th September 2009, 07:22 AM
Been following this thread and it seems like just a few are pushing it. Cant really understand what their point or purpose is or why they even care, but its kinda insulting are intelligence a bit. I suspect that they might be very short bad tempered little men:)

Over the years, I've stuck with Starboard and North sails, why, because I've never had a bad board or sail from these manufactures and I like the way they ride, only top boards/sails. I've tried pretty much all other brands sails & boards, but never liked them. Im not saying other brands are bad, far from it. I just happen to prefer SB and North.

I like the "massive" amount of spec detail on the site as it helps me choose the right model. Most other brands sights dont even quote tail widths etc, let alone a video explain the new design features. I would not encourage SB to cut back on this info as I find it usefull.

SB are a commercial organisation for sure, but, its easy to forget that its run entirely by people that have a passion for windsurfing that genuinely want to make the best boards out there. Every time SB bring out a new board, there is a big gamble, it might not sell. They will have invested a significant amount of money in development and are entitled to pitch there take on each product. In the same way, SB are entitled to quote achievements by past and current team riders.

I think its good when people list there kit. It gives you an idea of what style of riding they do. Plus, I can ask them a question about a specific board/sail. List your kit:)

Could write page after page here, but will stick with just the bullet points.

Unregistered
6th September 2009, 04:21 PM
Seems amazing to me that in so called enlightened liberal times and on an OPEN forum posters resort to personal insults when other posters offer contrasting (ok conflicting) opinions.


Seen it on other threads to other posters.Dont agree with us you must be "small little man" (which is insulting in itself to smaller folk)

Grow up Mark H....

Screamer
6th September 2009, 04:26 PM
Hey Mark
Let me clarify a few things here: I've been a Starboard fan for years and I also prefer their boards to some others I've tried. I do believe the company is run by people really passionate about windsurfing, and I applaud them for having this forum where you can express your opinion.
Now, with explaining out of the way, as a long time *board customer, I think I'm entitled to express my opinion about things I don't like about the company I (generally) like. Is *board incapable of mistakes, do we always have to approve everything they do/say? If that makes me a "short tempered little man" that insults your intelligence, so be it. And what I wrote in the first post still stands (can you dispute those 3 points). To me the iSonic section sounds just as LAME as the latest Vanish commercial, period. It's not about the content, it's the presentation also, how you say something. You might like it though.

Let me remind you, if you look/listen carefully, this thread (which has gone on a few tangents admitedly) also contains some fine comments from Farlo:
>By the way, would we feel concerned if we didn't like the brand / its products to some extend?
and
>... even true believers in Starboard's supremacy can disagree with the references made in the iSonic section.

Fair winds

Floyd
6th September 2009, 08:36 PM
Being a short bad tempered kind of bloke thought I`d better reply too. (even though I said I wouldn`t!!!)

Its difficult to express a negative point and still applaud what starboard have achieved. (more than any other single manufacturer???)

I dont like the flashy brochures/hundreds of sponsored sailors with all the associated costs ;yet when I purchase a board I still have to pay for them !!!! Perhaps those that dont like the "hype/marketing should get a £50 discount ? Wonder how many would pay ???

Boards prices are approaching £1300 ; for 7kg of material ... I would like to see a break down of that £1300. How much is marketing ???? I suspect far more than any other manufacturer ?????But it works ; which IMO says something about the consumer not the supplier. (Mark H ???)

And the info on website/brochures is not what I use to buy a board.(I bought an S type like that and learned my lesson !!!) Only real way to choose a board is to try it !!! (And even then it takes a while; 2 or 3 hours in right conditions sailing with a mate and or GPS)

My distractions
Fanatic Mega Jag . F2 Style.(260) Evo 80.Kode 94. Sailboard Start.F2 Powerglide. Mistral Syncro 124 RD.Tiga Wave.Mistral Screamer.BMW Z3m.Fireblade. Gasgas 300. and a couple of snowboards somewhere..17 Sails. (dating from 1979) Oh and a mountain bike !!! (Decathlon; but its a goodun !!! (2 GPS units ; one from 1997 !!! ????????????
And none of them are toys !!!!

Good sailing !!!

mark h
6th September 2009, 08:51 PM
Hi Screamer
No probs, I fully respect your (and others) opinion. Thats the good thing about an open forum. Its a big world and people will always have different take on things or see things differently.

Unreg #40
Maybe your one of those sensitive types, the type that reads with their mouth and not there eyes (that's an insult). Clearly a LOL at the end of my initial comment and "short angery men". Yes we are living in "enlightened liberal times" and for that reason alone, most of us understand the difference between an insult and joke. Have you ever never the p*ss out of mates in the pub??? Its all part of the crack.

Hi Floyd
Ha, £1300 for 7kg, never really looked at it that way before. £185 per kilo!!

Im off for a sail now:)

Unregistered
6th September 2009, 10:00 PM
Its "their eyes" and "angery" is spelt "angry".
Perhaps you should have paid more attention in English last week !!!

mark h
6th September 2009, 11:58 PM
Its "their eyes" and "angery" is spelt "angry".
Perhaps you should have paid more attention in English last week !!!

Ha ha, I'm also falling behind in french and maths. I need to spend less time windsurfing and more time studying:)

Hot Ice
9th September 2009, 04:28 AM
I agree completely with mark h original post and I am amazed how sensitive some people are to some of his comments.

I feel there is a double set of standards operating on this thread.

Its ok for someone to call magazines/test/advertising corrupt. Just don’t make a joke about others on the thread.

Deja Vu
9th September 2009, 06:09 AM
Lots of criticism concerning Starboard's marketing. Well, what about JP's marketing in North America? Right now 2008 JP slalom boards are being sold as 2009 boards and the Slalom V is being sold as a 2010 board. Thanks but no thanks! JP seems to have a crossover period where the 2008 and 2009 slalom boards appear on their 2009 website and the 2009 and 2010 boards will appear on their 2010 website. Now that leads to a lot of confusion among consumers and I really disapprove. Starboard at least gives you what they say they're going to give you! I checked out the Slalom V and it'll be 60 days (November 2009) before they're even available in North America and that's from several sources! This is the board being used in the 2009 PWA events. Starboard's marketing looks pretty good to me after checking out JP's Slalom V boards!

Unregistered
9th September 2009, 10:16 PM
Hot Ice
Any one with a grain of inteligence can see difference between criticising an organisation and calling an individual "a small angry man" .


It is prevalent on Forum. If you disagree/criticise accepted wisdom (for want of a better word ; as there`s not much around on here) things get personal. Thats out of order.

mark h
10th September 2009, 02:18 AM
Unreg: Reading with your mouth again? and not your eyes:))

P.S. "Inteligence" is spelt like this "intelligence"

Unregistered
10th September 2009, 04:43 AM
How do you know ????
Bet you checked first !!!!

mark h
10th September 2009, 06:34 AM
How do you know ????
Bet you checked first !!!!

Yep, I asked my 15-year old son:)

Farlo
10th September 2009, 02:32 PM
Guys, I don't know what it is about now but it looks like the end of the iSonic era. Wood Carbon doesn't seem to bring much performance over Wood. Getting BD instead of AA was maybe not the best decision of Starboard. Anyway, thank you for the excellent ST104, I will keep it forever.

Hot Ice
16th September 2009, 03:14 AM
Hot Ice
Any one with a grain of inteligence can see difference between criticising an organisation and calling an individual "a small angry man" .


It is prevalent on Forum. If you disagree/criticise accepted wisdom (for want of a better word ; as there`s not much around on here) things get personal. Thats out of order.

I total disagree with you. In my opinion mark h original remarks are not out of order.
What is out of order is someone stating that magazines/ tests/ advertising are corrupt.
You don’t appear to have an issue with that.
Instead you try to insult me and in doing so fall foul of your own rather hypocritical standards.

Unregistered
16th September 2009, 03:03 PM
" magazines/ tests/ advertising are corrupt."

I neither agree or disagree with any of posts in this thread; grains of truth in all but I`ve not seen above quote said by anyone !!!!

Is Hot Ice reading same thread ???

Hot Ice
16th September 2009, 06:39 PM
Just a mistake !!! No it was BS !!! But you are right Viking ;no problem we should be used to it.Our sport is full of it !!!

Boards that cant be measured objectively; stats that are wrong; sail sizes that are wrong. Corrupt magazines/tests/advertising.Year on year claims for improved kit. List is endless !!!

Its exactly the reason why so few people are coming into the sport. They think they just have to buy so much gear !!!! Look on some posters list of "Toys" on end of posts on threads. Whats that about. ???
BS

Yes I am reading the same thread.

Remi
22nd September 2009, 05:30 AM
Hi Floyd,

Very funny that you imagine that I buy 22 boards, put this only here because I can answer any questions on this boards to serve you better.

All the best

Farlo
1st January 2012, 06:23 AM
Hi all, I came across this old thread looking for inspiration. Retrospectively it seems that I made some very stupid comments hereabove. ISonic's are still up and running and probably here to stay for another decade. Getting BD on board was maybe one of Starboard's best decisions, and... I sold my beloved ST104 yesterday. It has been a fantastic board, certainly the best I ever had (and I had/tried many). However last year I used it only once while I sailed larger boards twenty more times due to poor wind conditions. Having to reduce my quiver before moving back to Paris I got rid of the ST (snif).

This may very well be my last post here as I no longer own any Starboard product. I really appreciated chatting with you all over the years and it has been a great experience (hope you liked it too). I wish you a wonderful year 2012, a lot of fun and the best possible wind. Ciao, Farlo

BelSkorpio
1st January 2012, 11:55 PM
Farlo, you're always welcome here wether you're on SB or not.

Besides, it's always good to hear from the other marks as well.
We have to keep our mind wide open.

Ventis secundis tene cursum, go with the flow.

All the best for 2012.