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mac33
12th September 2009, 02:11 AM
i weigh 67kg and sail 5m race sail[vapor] in winds from 13 to 30 knots. in lighter winds 13/18 i use a little less downhaul and heaps/max of negative outhaul to get me planning quickly and through lulls. i find this combo works better for my weight than say using a 6.5 and having to sheet out in gusts. other advantages smaller sail is less tiring to use,can use smaller fin, has way better feel,has less drag resulting in higher top end speed. i feel there is a some peer/macho thing in w/surf to use a bigger sail than is needed. most people 70kg and under have no need to use anything bigger its just a macho thing . a 5metre with less downhaul will also point upwind better than a 6.5 with loose leech i believe. anyone share my opinion.

Floyd
12th September 2009, 03:10 AM
But Mac
You are the one posting about sails you can use !!!! (Irony is a wonderfull thing)
I would love to be able to use a 5 metre when (70kg) mates are on 5`s. I have to "cope" with a 6.5 for anything like similar performance to them.
There`s nothing macho about it ; its all about weight !!!!! (My not inconsiderable 105k of it)

PS thats a hell of a range for one sail/board combo !!!! 13 to 30 knots.!!! I would need 3 sails and 2 boards to cover that !!!! (Guess 7 ; 6 and 5 ) (A true 30 knots and I`d easily be on a 5 ????)

Reckon you need a new anerometer !!!!

Or I need a 5 metre and board like yours ?????

Screamer
12th September 2009, 04:49 AM
Mac33
Can you organize a clinic where we can attend and hopefully learn something?
;-)

Ken
12th September 2009, 11:08 PM
Mac33,

What board(s) do you have that cover 13 to 30 knots? Hard to believe that at 67 kg, you can hang on to a 5.0 in 30 knots. Occasional gusts - yes. Steady 30 - no way without luffing all the time.

I guess I am one of those "macho" guys since I would use a 11.0 in 13 knots and a 4.0 in 30 knots. I weigh 78 kg.

In between I have - 9.2, 8.4, 7.6, 6.6, 5.7, 5.0, 4.5. Some of these (smaller ones) are quite old and don't get much use so they last a long time.

Also, at 13 knots of wind, I am traveling at 24-26 knots of board speed (gps speeds) on my formula board and 11.0. I doubt you can match that performance with a 5.0.

I do have a light weight buddy about your size that covers a very broad range of wind (10 - 30 knots) with a 6.5, 5.7, 4.5 & 3.8. He also uses three board in this range. One sail simply won't provide the appropriate power in 13 - 30 knots. You have to sacrafice too much at both ends of the range.

mac33
13th September 2009, 04:19 AM
i use 52 wide kinetic slalom in 16/30 knots and 58 wide[5.5kg] in around 12/16 knots both with 5.0 vapor. i have 5.8rs6 but prefer light feel of 5m. i do plane in this light wind with 5m perhaps not as much as with 5.8. i also own 7.7 severne cr2 which i use with fanatic falcon 75 wide,8kg and 41fin . i just bought this sail last week and to my surprise it starts to plane in around 7 /8 knots, fully powered up in 10knots.checked these wind speeds on seabreeze. com.au so i think what i am saying is correct.can hold 5m in 20/25 and just survive [max downhaul] in 25/30.lightweight equip boards, base, mast is one secret along with heaps negative outhaul.i was planning the other day not quite as early as guy on 11.0m. he had a good bit more downhaul than me. he could not believe i was planning with 7.7m.

Screamer
13th September 2009, 04:59 AM
Impressive

Farlo
14th September 2009, 04:12 PM
Lightweight does help a lot for sure. Girls and kids often plane in almost no wind with amazingly small sails. However you must be very skilled/well tuned to cover 12/18 Knts with 5 sqm. At similar weight (68 Kgs) I would most probably pick a 6.6 (admittedly I may also use a 7.3 or an old cambered 5.5). This is not so much a macho thing, but I prefer to sail a bit over- than underpowered. This been said, there is certainly a tendancy to use bigger sails than required. A friend of mine (62 Kgs) is almost always on 8.4 in this range, while ladies just a bit lighter are on 5.8 or so.

Ken
14th September 2009, 10:11 PM
Guys,

I am happy to see that mac33 does have a quiver of boards and sails. We have all gone through the minimalist frame of mind, but over time, if finances allow, many of us expand our quivers to cover just about every situation.

Don't forget that some of us on larger sails can handle them over a broad range of winds because we have adjustable outhauls. Now that I said that, one might wonder why I have so many sails. Choosing which one to use is always a bit subjective, but I would not give any of them up. I am always striving for the perfect set up to match the conditions. If I lived where steady winds were the norm, sail selection would be much more objective. However, inland lakes in Texas offer highly variable winds, so whatever rig is selected, it's never perfect all of the time. This is where the adjustable outhauls comes in handy.

Farlo
15th September 2009, 06:17 PM
Hi Ken, this is the point: there's rarely a perfect match so you tend to use the biggest workable sail. At my spot I see sailors with around 8 sqm in 15 Knts, when a 6.5 would suit most of them better. But they compare each other's gear and get convinced that they need a big sail or nothing. There has been inflation in sail size over the past 15 years and it's difficult to reverse the trend.

Floyd
15th September 2009, 08:06 PM
Farlo
Think that is a bit of a generalisation. At my spot sailors (especially heavier ones) watch what others are using and think he`s now going with a 5 (or something); that means I can probably change down. We`d all much rather use smallest sail we can comfortably plane with especially in gnarly/rough conditions.If theirs a choice I`m pretty sure we`d all much rather use a 5 than say a 7 ???
Suspect its very venue related. My local UK spot average sail carried (in van) is perhaps 6 or 6.5. Down at Leucate biggest sail many sailors own is 5.4.
Think Mac33`s comments have changed slightly over course of thread. I was very sceptical about his first post; his later ones are more the norm but I do think its very presumtious to say that because you can use a particular sail (big or small) why cant others.(or that perhaps their choice is somehow wrong ?) Most sailors nowadays have years of experience and know very well themselves whats best for them and conditions they sail in. Besides sailing overpowered is better exercise; probably faster; probably more exciting and modern sails do cope great overpowered .(within reason) But I would`t presume to infer others should do so ???!!!!

If I use a 7 its because its best to use FOR ME !!!!

Screamer
15th September 2009, 10:17 PM
Yes it's venue related, but it's also about one's attitude. I know several sailors in my area who sail mostly Formulas or large slaloms, in sheltered waters, gusty, etc, and to quote Floyd, I am positive they would rather be on an 8-11m than a 6m. They don't want to venture outside their habits and comfort zone, and they actually DON'T want the wind to blow too hard (in order not to disturb the water so there is chop larger than 4 inches ;-)))

PS I think mac33 is either:
a) fishing
b) arrogant or
c) about 16 years old
No offence ;-)

Ken
15th September 2009, 10:49 PM
Farlo,

On the contrary. Where I sail, a few of us try to encourage others to go bigger when they are slogging or just planing, while those of us with big sails go blasting by. I personally choose the smaller sail when I am trying to decide what to use for a given situation. I would rather be a little under powered than overpowered. With adjustable outhauls on my 5 largest sails, it is rare that I have come in a change sails.

In time, most sailors find what sail sizes work best for them, and if they are happy with their choices, either large or small, so be it. I don't see a general trend to "larger" sails in our area, except for those with formula or similar gear. I have never seen anyone complaining about their sails being too large, unless they just made an incorrect choice for the day and have to re-rig.

mac33
15th September 2009, 11:05 PM
i agree my setup of rigging unusually small size sails for conditions does not work for everyone and probably very few however if sailors were prepared to give it a go they may be surprised to find it can for some work.i rig not just with some negative outhaul but pretty much with max negative.this alone makes huge difference to bottom end.a larger than needed light board on a small sail makes board more lively and improves planning ability.today in 8/15 conditions i tried my other board that i failed to mention a f2 x/speed 64 wide and around 7.5kg.i rigged my rs6 5.8m on it ,i was for most part fully powered up.i rigged way below manufacture specs for outhaul and less downhaul[top batten] just startimg to twist off.i could easily have held up the 8.2m as someone mentioned earlier albeit with more out/down.however i do not believe i would have sailed any faster/better than with my smaller setup. gybing an 8.2m i am more prone to ending up in 17 degees swan river.

Farlo
16th September 2009, 12:25 AM
Floyd, Ken... I refer to ~15 Knots conditions which are prevalent on my spot. I don't say all sailors use big sails. In 20+ Knts there are much less people on water and most have small sails anyway, but this does not happen very often. Our local shop always push intermediate sailors for bigger sails and wider boards (everything smaller than 7.5 and 70 cm will not work, etc). This is not necessarily bad advice, there are more F3/4 than F4/5 days. But I'm always surprised by the number of 8+ sails cruising here in 15 Knts. For me it's way too big unless you head for the speed record, and even so.

Mac33, this is probably a matter of taste but I find my sails to work better with max downhaul and some outhaul, notably upwind. I very rarely change my settings and still cover a broad wind range with one sail. Lightweight helps in the low end and max downhaul in the high end.

macho
16th September 2009, 12:17 PM
One size fits all, I dont think so I prefer to rig for the conditions, 70-75kg I use 6.3 - 7.0
most of the time from 12 - 22 knots. Suits me fine nothing macho about it I'm not scared of a bit of power in the sail and prefer to plane more than float which I am sure is not the case with our one sail friend.
Guys sail with what suits them so don't presume so much...

Finian
17th September 2009, 05:41 AM
Mac, I reckon you should open a clinic, then people would have somewhere to go to learn how NOT to 'rig it right'. I have a great idea - Instead of deforming a 5 metre (no downhaul tons of negative outhaul) to get the same results as a 6.5 - use a 6.5 instead. Ever wondered why no one else is using a 5 mtr in 12 knots ?

mac33
17th September 2009, 05:34 PM
for the conventional sailor your point is valid [turning a 5.0 into a 6.5 ] by means of less down/outhaul. my main and still valid point is that for a 70kg and under in around 12/16 knots a 5.0m race sail rigged with max negative can get you planning and powered up PROVIDED you use a bigger than required 95/100litre lightweight board. most sailors and people in general are set in concrete in there ways. i was told in the ledge to lancellin ocean race 15 or so years ago, run in around 10/16 knots that anders bringdall won the race on a 50cm 4kg board and a 6.1m sail.my unconventional way can work. if wind increases its alot easier to increase out/down than change down sails. most people believe with absolute certainty the official theory of 911, myself i believe something completley different, just as with sail/size choices.each to there own but its good to keep an open mind as in trying something different. surprise ,surprise you may change your opinion.

Floyd
17th September 2009, 07:06 PM
Mac
I`ve sort of lost what your point is ??? Are you really saying that its possible for a 70k sailor (you) to plane (effectively; upwind ?) with only a 5 metre sail in 12 knots of wind ?
And if so; to what advantage ???? Just rig correct sail up to start with ????

Are you LeeD ???

Think your point re -open minded is fair enough but suspect windsurfers aren`t a dogmatic bunch anyhow? All I know are always looking/trying to get max TOW with least hassle?!!

I used to have a mate who could get a Jimmy Lewis speed needle going in 15 knots and often boasted about it ? He never went any faster than us and missed every jibe but if sailors want to put themselves at a disadvatage to prove a point thats upto them !!!

Changing rigs takes 5 minutes ???

A baggy 5 metre will never perform like a properly rigged 6.5;its profile would be wrong for upwind; on a reach maybe ????

Ken
17th September 2009, 09:27 PM
Floyd,

You hit it on the head with - "All I know are always looking/trying to get max TOW with least hassle?!!

I think almost all of us strive for that goal. However, there will always be a few guys that enjoy being a bit radical, just to be different than every one else. I get that and they are welcome to do their thing. I do my thing knowing that it's not for eveyone, but it gives me max TOW, exciting performance with maximum control in *2 - 35 knots.

*I have a 1985 Mistral Superlight with its 6.3 original regatta sail that I bought new 25 years ago and still use it on those 2-8 knot days for light wind racing & freestyle .

Farlo
17th September 2009, 09:42 PM
Hi Mac 33, sails of 15+ years ago were not like today. A Tiga Power Slalom 5.0 would probably have got me planing in ~13 knots. So I believe you can do it with a Vapor, but not sure you get that much fun. 5.8 and 7.7 are not so big sails. Also you mention 52, 58, 64 cm. These are not wide boards to actual standards.

mac33
17th September 2009, 11:21 PM
today it looked very windy so i only brought smaller 52wide 80litre with me.the wind dropped 10/20 knots averaging around 13knots. i had an absolute dog of a day with 5.0m. however had i took my 58 wide 95litre larger board i would have had reasonable day.point being a 5.0m rigged full on a 58 wide you can sail mostly powered up in around 12/16 knots for 70kg sailors. a smaller 80 litre board used does as i found today make it a grovel.the other advantage that i did not mention in original post is in stronger wind 20/25 a 5.0m will have higher topend speed over 5.8m or bigger as control is greater esp on reach. in 20knots plus with 5.8m i immediately sail upwind in gusts.this is why i tend to prefer 5m over 5.8m i never can never be too sure when wind will pick up. in slalom comp in 12/16 i do agree larger sail will give you clear edge over a 5.0m.

Finian
23rd September 2009, 06:42 AM
Well there you go, Mac 33 - how do mention 9/11 in a forum on sail size?
Your a conspiracy theorist - aggghhh!. That explains quite a lot about your opinions on sailing. Now I can just feel sorry, nod my head in aggreement and think 'there but for the grace of God go I...'

Ken
24th September 2009, 03:18 AM
Mac,

You should have used a larger sail.

We finally got some wind yesterday here in North Texas, 14-20 knots . Not much wind around here in the summer, but Fall is now here. I was on my iS 111 and Maui Sails TR4 7.6. On plane 100 % of the time, great speed for me (peak of 29 knots) and a great day. Most guys were out on 6.5 - 7.6 sails. My buddy that weighs 70 kg was out on a 5.8 sail, a 100L board and did well, but didn't plane 100% of the time.

mac33
25th September 2009, 04:43 AM
Well there you go, Mac 33 - how do mention 9/11 in a forum on sail size?
Your a conspiracy theorist - aggghhh!. That explains quite a lot about your opinions on sailing. Now I can just feel sorry, nod my head in aggreement and think 'there but for the grace of God go I...'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtx_GcFCs6c

there go i for the grace of god.

i choose my sailsize not what i am told is right but what i believe is right.
love to sail past u in lull on my baggy sail setup.each to there own.

davide
26th September 2009, 09:33 AM
i use 52 wide kinetic slalom in 16/30 knots and 58 wide[5.5kg] in around 12/16 knots both with 5.0 vapor. i have 5.8rs6 but prefer light feel of 5m. i do plane in this light wind with 5m perhaps not as much as with 5.8. i also own 7.7 severne cr2 which i use with fanatic falcon 75 wide,8kg and 41fin . i just bought this sail last week and to my surprise it starts to plane in around 7 /8 knots, fully powered up in 10knots.checked these wind speeds on seabreeze. com.au so i think what i am saying is correct.can hold 5m in 20/25 and just survive [max downhaul] in 25/30.lightweight equip boards, base, mast is one secret along with heaps negative outhaul.i was planning the other day not quite as early as guy on 11.0m. he had a good bit more downhaul than me. he could not believe i was planning with 7.7m.

Hi Mac33, I am 6 pounds heavier than you, to compare I sail a CA SL 52 (and a 58), Isonic-111 and an old Mike Lab 76cm wide (probably 130L). I owned both a Kinetic 52 and 58 Slalom (2003 UL/110L), and a Sonic 52.

For me the CA 52 (and Kinetic and Sonic 52) are optimal with a 5.5, they can well use a 6.0, a bit uncomfortable and easily overcame by a 6.6. A 5.0 works (I have a HOT Superspeed) but I am generally very happy and well balanced with a 5.5/6.0 (Hot Sails GPS). 30 knots? I am not sure I have what it takes.

My Kinetic 58 was quite a big board (probably different from yours) and was surprisingly quick to plane with a small sail. However the optimal sail size was a 7.0-7.3. The 5.5 I occasionally used when too lazy to re-rig was a bit too small to control the board if the wind came back; never used a 5.0 on it. Good parallel for my Kinetic 58 is a Is-101. By the way my IS-111 would of course carry a bigger sail, but also be much more controllable than the Kinetic. My current CA 58 is probably similar to your kinetic, it works with 6.0-6.5, 5.5 is unbalanced, 5.0 I never tried.

Coming to your light air performance: my ML was quite amazing with a 8.0 and a 50 cm fin. I am not sure about 8 knots, but I am sure that I do not want to go out with a 10. My max sail is 7.3 right now. that works with the ML and a 44 fin, but I did loose low end and probably will buy again an 8.0 next year, although, lucky where I live, it would be for a few days/year.

So, in summary, give or take a few knots your observations sort of match mine, although my minimal quiver for slalom would be 5.5 - 6.6 - 8.0, your choice 5.0 - (5.8) - 7.7 would not work well for me.

mac33
26th September 2009, 10:02 PM
someone on this forum actually agreeing or partly agreeing with me.
finian and screamer will be next be telling you to open up a clinic so we can learn to rig it wrong.
you say the smaller sizes 5.0 and 5.5 on 58wide board feel unbalanced,loss of control. another way of saying this is board with light rig when powered up starts lifting very high out of water. this is true i find but its exactly what i am looking for.its good for surfing chop and swell. the only way i have chance of beating big blokes for speed is when we hit large chop/swell this is where the extra lift of this combo comes in handy for surfing over it.
it does take time to get used to lift of small sail/larger board. if you get max weight in harness to nose of board in gusts it should help to stop board from taking off.
this combo is also great for gybing in lulls and for planning early.
my kinetics are race model not freeride edition.i have tried carbonart52 and 44.they were good but still prefer my kinetics. i am trying jp 84 litre slalom its very fast in flat water appalling control in chop, thats 07 model. i also owned starboard 52. it edged kinetic in flattish water, kinetic had definite edge in choppy water.
my light wind board fanatic falcon 75 wide is 152 litres volume. checked windspeeds on seabreeze website on numerous occasions it does plane in around 8 knots with 7.7m rigged with no outhaul/ downhaul.overpowers though in around 12 knots.

Jean-Marc
27th September 2009, 03:05 AM
my light wind board fanatic falcon 75 wide is 152 litres volume. checked windspeeds on seabreeze website on numerous occasions it does plane in around 8 knots with 7.7m rigged with no outhaul/ downhaul.overpowers though in around 12 knots.

Mac33,

Your achievments sounds very impressive but I strongly doubt about the wind speed recording. Something must be wrong with the calibration of the "seabreeze" website wind anemometer. It clearly sounds to me that either the anemometer is off-scale and needs an urgent tune-up or that your actual sailing venue is far away from the location of the anemometer. In short : you are clearly underestimating the true wind speed while sailing.

Being a light weight myself at 65 kg, I need 7 knots of constant wind to start and sustain the planing with a 77 cm wide board and a Code Red 11 m2 sail and I get completely overpowered above 12-13 knots. With the same 77 cm wide board, the wind range is 10-15 knots with an 8.2 m2 race sail or 11-17+ knots with a Code Red 7.7 m2 sail. I've never been able to start and sustain the planing as of 7 knots of wind with anything smaller than a 10.6 m2 sail, and certainly not as of 8 knots with a 7.7 m2 sail, no matter how baggy the downhaul has been set up.

Furthermore, the wind range with a 5.4m2 sail on the same 77 cm wide board is about 18-25 knots of wind. I'm unable to start and sustain the planing as of 12 knots with such a sail. Therefore, I have very strong doubt about the planing ability in the low wind range as reported with your 5.0 or 5.8 m2 racing sail, sorry about that again. However, the upper wind range of your 5.0 racing sail is probably correct at 30 knots because I usually use a wave 4.7 m2 sail in 25-30 knots of wind (but on a 50 cm wide & 62 L wave board).

All my 5.4-11.0 m2 sails are rigged with an adjustable on-the-fly outhaul system. Even with super negative outhaul and/or downhaul, there are some physic laws that cannot be overturned. Wind speed in knots (nautical miles/hour) are measured on the spot by an hand-held Deuta analog anemometer and such record is double-checked with the windspeed of a closely located website anemometer. Variability is usually 0.5 knots. Complete records with wind records and gear being used have been logged since 2003 on http://mytrims.com/sessions/index.asp?uID=230.

Cheers !

JM

davide
27th September 2009, 03:35 AM
someone on this forum actually agreeing or partly agreeing with me.

Well, you are very very very much more optimistic about the performance of a 5.0 +7.7 quiver than myself! I go for a much wider, a bit over-the-top, quiver 5.5-6.0-6.6-7.3-(8.0) GPS, 5.8 Fire, 5.3-4.7-4.2-3.7 Superfreaks. I do not like to slog and I do like to match sail, wind speed, and board. Only exception is at low wind speed, where I compromise and I do not mind slogging with my "boat", but for performance sailing I think I would need a 9.0 or something to keep up.

PS my Kinetic 58 was a Slalom Ultralight, one the last of the course/slalom breed.

mac33
27th September 2009, 04:52 AM
perhaps my windspeeds were wrong.however in very light wind days i sail in a large area of swan river so should be covering wind meter. a few days ago i planed nonstop for first 30 mins and half the time thereafter. when i checked windspeeds on seabreeze.com.au it never once got above 12 knots although it was averaging 10/12. later on it dropped 8/10 this is when i was on/off plane.
i saw a proto 9.5m severne with large cutout clew 225cm that i liked. also severne enigma boom 210/260. no money though. this setup if i can hold it could be awesome in those real light days 5/10.
only recently got into this light wind stuff since bought vehichle to carry 3 boards.
even if wind is non planing i still have a sail.
i have 2 fins a wide 41 and a 52 both carbon, i only use 41 it feels faster when planing.

Jean-Marc
27th September 2009, 05:24 AM
Mac33,

I mostly sail on lake Geneva. Home spot area covers about 3-5 km wide x 5-8 km long. It's not uncommon to have different wind speed depending whether I'm near the north shore or the south shore banks on a particular day. For example, I can get 10-15 knots near the north shore and 12-18 knots near the south shore at the same time same day. At my home spot, all wind speed are recorded on-line at www.windspots.com (http://www.windspots.com) (Switzerland, lake Geneva, Geneva, La Nautique (=south shore), Le Reposoir & Versoix (= North shore) and www.vengeron.net (http://www.vengeron.net) (= north shore). Beware of system glitches or break-down (e.g., flat wind speed recording and it's obviously blowing wind as witnessed by the webcam images)...!

The first thing to do is to verify the accuracy of these on-line anemometers. Post yourself near one of these and record the wind speed + time with your own hand-held anemometer. Compare and check for any discrepancy, i.e., wind recorded on a post at 10 m high is usually a tick stronger than at 1.90-2.10 m high when you hold your anemometer with your hand above your head.

Never believe the wind speed of an on-line website anemometer if you didn't check it's location first hand. In particular, check for possible wind shadow. Depending on the wind direction on a particular day and time, some anemometer are in complete wind shadow and consistently under-report the true wind speed on that day, e.g., especially by offshore wind. Trees, building, anything that can block the clean and steady wind stream around the anemometer will give erratic and unconsistent wind speed records.

Finally, in true 5-10 knots windy days, you will be schlogging 100% of the time at 5 knots wind and planing 100% of the time in 10 knots wind for your 68 kg with a 9.5 m2 sail on your Fanatic 75 cm board + 52 cm fin, no question about it.

Cheers !

JM

mac33
27th September 2009, 06:06 AM
i sail alot with french speaking bloke in swan river[i thought it was you] he sails starboard formula with 11.0m severne cr2. he does plane earlier than me although not that much.he is tall/very slim, low 70kg.when he first noticed i was sailing only 7.7 he said i thought you were on at least a 9.0m.
i believe this guy planes in around 7/8knots. i will ask him. i plane i think in 8/9knots.
open to possibility i could be way off mark.

other day sailed in 25/35 knots[seabreeze.com.au] with 5.0m ,tons of downhaul. i sail sheeted in only in lulls.upwind and sheeted out in gusts.
a guy on shore had wind metre max gust he recorded was 32knots. it was clearly stronger out further.

Ken
28th September 2009, 09:23 PM
Watching for the formation of white caps is clearly a no compromise way of checking wind speed. Small caps begin to form at 10 knots. In either protected or open water, caps still begin to form at 10 knots, just different sizes.

Where I sail, it's protected near shore so I frequently use binoculars to check the wind further out in the lake to see what is really happening. Our winds aren't steady so as a general rule, I don't go out unless I see a few white caps (6-12 knot winds), and then it's with a formula board and an 11.0 to get planing. I weigh 78 kg. I am also very good in light winds, usually on much smaller sails than my competition when racing formula.

Mac, to plane in 8-9 knots on your gear, you would have to pump you brains out to get going. How much are you pumping? Baggy sails don't pump well, so by reducing outhaul and downhaul, it makes pumping much less effective.

mac33
28th September 2009, 10:29 PM
2 people with same weight/equip can plane at different thresholds.tuning out/downhaul relative to conditions present can make a big difference.
i have always had a knack of planing quickly, holding 7m plus sails[sheeted in] in even moderate wind is the downside to this.
i dont take your point of baggy sails been harder to pump onto plane. this may be true but in such light wind a full sail overall will plane for me anyway much faster than rigging with manufactures specs on out/downhaul.
i had my 7.7m on my f2 x/speed 64cm wide last week i was been outplaned by guy with new2010 sonic[68wide] with 7.8m pryde racing sail. i changed boards to much larger fanatic and was planing way way earlier than he was.
i now only rig my 7.7m on my largest board after this experience.
strangely my 5.8m om my f2 64wide seems to plane almost as quickly as when i put 7.7m on it.
i weighed my fanatic falcon its specs are 275x75,it weighs including fin,straps between 8.5/8.75kg,so for size is ulta/light.
will closely monitor wind on light days on seabreeze.com.au when sailing in future.

Farlo
28th September 2009, 11:29 PM
Hi Mac 33, a few sail models have been launched recently (NP Helium, Severne Glide) with increased planning ability in light winds. These sails are baggy by design and you can't really flatten them, resulting in little gust tolerance. According to NP a 7.5 Helium has same planning threshold than a 8.5+ regular V8. At your weight you may very well plane around 9/10 Knts with your baggy 7.7 and Falcon (pointing efficiently upwind is another story). I'm more surprised by your performances with 5.8 and 5 sqm. Those are quite small by actual standards, at least for freeride/slalom. OK I like some more power in sail but at similar weight I would not take a 5.8 for wind below 15/16 Knts, 20 Knts for the 5. Something must be wrong either with your windspeed or weight measurements;-)

mac33
29th September 2009, 12:29 AM
i would not take 5.8m out below 15/16 knots.-farlo

sailed today on 5.8m in exactly that wind and never once off plane on kinetic58. seabreeze website surely cannot be that wrong. sailed 2kms downwind [2/3] legs and [6/7] legs to get upwind again.
did not rig to manufactures specs though. twisting off to barely top batten and negative outhaulto max.
this sail tuning is not for everyone. advantages for me,
quicker to plane
planes through lulls better
higher topend speed through lulls
higher pointing angle due to less downhaul.

disadvantages,

slower topend speed in gusts[16 knots+]
cam rotarion slower on gybes
feel of sail not as good.

5m in 20knots-farlo
for years i only sailed 5m and no larger. can get 5m planing with medium size board in 15 knots unquestionably.

in summary its all in the sail/tuning and board selection.

Farlo
29th September 2009, 02:34 PM
Planing in 15/16 Knots with 5.8 m, yes it works. Lightweight sailors, kids and ladies do that even with "standard" sail tuning and narrow boards. With a baggy 5 m, why not if the wind is steady enough. Sails of 15+ years ago (NS Infinity, Tiga Power Slalom) had such low end power. Planning in 12/13 Knts with 5 m as you started this post? Well, if this copes with your definition of funboard... have fun.

mac33
29th September 2009, 03:41 PM
i agree 5.0m in 12/13 knots is not fun.
5.8m on med size board in 15/16 knots for me is ideal.
got caught out using 5.8m a while back in steady 20/22 knots it was hard work and tiring.
had to sail upwind in gusts,had stayed on reach[sheeted in] would have wiped out unquestionably.
was pissed off that day as considered it a half wasted day as dont like to sheet out.
as the song goes
and i did it my way.

Farlo
29th September 2009, 06:57 PM
It's the other end, but most modern 5.8 sails are pretty manageable in 20/22 Knts for a 67 Kg sailor. If you rig one properly (flat) you can remain sheeted in without being blown away by gusts. Of course it will have less back hand / low end power. This is not a macho thing, just proper rigging for such conditions.

mac33
29th September 2009, 10:06 PM
you are right, rigged correctly to manufacture specs of downhaul, say to 4th batten down with at least neutral outhaul i could stay sheeted in mostly in 20/22 knots.
i found from testing with gps that on reach with 5.8m in resonably chop my peak speed was around 29knots. i hardly ever hit 30 with 5.8m no matter what tuning.
with 5.0m i would never fail to get to 30. i found it hard to better this 30 however .
1 knot difference in speed its not much but most drag races i have are very close.
for most 5.8m would be faster in this wind strength than 5.0m, definately not for me.
its all relative to your weight/ strength
my legs/arms are real slim, maybe i need to stop being a vegetarian[15years] in order to make 5.8m work better than 5.0m in this wind strength.
in golf theres a saying it goes its not how its how many.

Jean-Marc
30th September 2009, 12:41 AM
5.8m on med size board in 15/16 knots for me is ideal.
got caught out using 5.8m a while back in steady 20/22 knots it was hard work and tiring.
had to sail upwind in gusts,had stayed on reach[sheeted in] would have wiped out unquestionably.
was pissed off that day as considered it a half wasted day as dont like to sheet out.

Mac33,

I'm surprised you were risking being wipped out on a reach and it was hard work and tiring in 20/22 knots with a 5.8 m2 sail. This really sounds to me that it was much more windy than you thought. In true 15/16 knots gusting up to 20/22 knots, I had a blast for 6 hours on iSonic 53 speed gun + NP RS1 6.6 m2 sail. At no time was I feared to sheet out in a gust (bad idea in fact), feared from being wipped out or was hard work or tiring. Was I ever pissed off? No way! A perfectly balanced session. And damn' fast : Vmax 29.9 knots. Nice drag racing with a pal on his F2 sputnik + 6.8 m2 sail 100% of the time planing pedal to the metal. Kids, women or freestylers were on 5.4, 5.8 or 6.2 m2 sails and freestyle/freewave/wave boards. They were all planing in 20+ knots gusts whereas the 75+ kg guys on such gear were clearly schlogging in 15 knots lulls, no questions.

My suggestion next time you feel overpowered, tired and pissed off is very simple: set your sail with max downhaul. Outhaul neutral or -1 cm negative is fine for max speed on a broad reach (100-120 angle) without ever thinking of sheeting out. Reason ? The loose leech works properly as designed by the sailmaker for your benefit. You will discover what it really means by sailing in overpowered conditions with a perfectly balanced and tireless sail. Try it ! You'll be surprised... And absolutely no need to change your diet!

Cheers & ride on!

JM

mac33
30th September 2009, 01:08 AM
i will give it a go now that that i have got use to rigging up 2 sails/boards.
i have tried this before and could not wait to get back on 5.0m
the stress on mast,leech flutter are other negatives of this setup.
however next 20 + day will rig up 5.8m and close to max downhaul setup.
looked at y/tube clips last night of le defi for an hour,love to have a go if had money for travel.



http://picasaweb.google.fr/windsurfilles/DEFIWIND2007ParFredBONET#5070075279240601602

Darko_Z
1st October 2009, 01:20 AM
To get planning with 5 m, sail in only 13 kn wind, sounds fantastic even with light weight of 67 kg. Normally, with 67 kg, you need 15 to 16 kn wind for that and according to sail calculator you need 18 kn wind to get comfortably at plane.
We would all love to use 5 m sail and get planning in 13kn, but reality is different. For me main goal for windsurfing is planning 100% of the time. My weight is 90kg, with 5 m sail and 94l board I need at least 24 kn wind to get planning, if wind drops below 20 kn for 15 s, I go down.
With bigger board and sail 9.5m I can get planning in 11 to 12 kn wind, for 7.8 m I need 14 kn and for 6 m 19 kn.
I try to choose my sail big enough to plane most of the time, but still small enough to keep control in wind gusts. This is important since there is no such thing as steady wind. Usually, if average wind is 15kn, there are wind gusts over 20kn for 5 to 10 s and wind lulls around 10kn for 15 to 30 s.

Generally, I prefer to sail overpowered for 10s every few minutes, than schlogging for few minutes and then get planning for 10 sec.

If I have to sail more upwind or downwind I tend to use bigger sail so I can reach much better angles of sailing. I experimented with sail setting below recommended min setting and could get planning with less wind. But then the batten tension was too high and one batten was broken.
New sails have much bigger wind range than old sails. It was harder to control my old 8m sail in 20kn than new 9.5m, so there is no need to be afraid from big sails, except for the price.

Farlo
1st October 2009, 08:54 PM
Hi Mac33, don't be afraid of stressing mast or sail; these are designed to work that way. Hopefully you will enjoy this set-up. Keep us posted.

mac33
1st October 2009, 11:23 PM
i will give it a go, may be few weeks for 20+ knots.

sailed today on 7.7m/fanatic75 combo.

no whitecaps at all but web shows blowing 8/14 knots.

only one sailing apart from few beginners.

formula sailing dying off in perth just as i am getting into it.

planed around half the time, a bit of a battle getting back upwind.

yesterday blowing 15/18 had good racing 3km reaching on f2 64wide and 5.8

a bit slower than 2 big guys on ka 8.5m/sonic75.other 64sonic/7.8mpryde.

through lulls and upwind about even.initial planing no contest i easily better. topend speed peak was 27 knots, i would have been 26 or so.

bought smaller 32fin today replacing 36fin for hopefully more topend speed.

probably needed a bit more downhaul for topspeed.