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View Full Version : Speedsailing . Where are we ???


Floyd
14th October 2009, 11:15 PM
With kite having broken 50knots And Sebastien Cattelan claiming 53.37 k with 61.7 Vmax

(see http://www.surfertoday.com/kiteboarding/2368-sebastien-cattelan-prepares-to-beat-lhydroptere-in-the-luderitz-speed-challenge)

Along with Hydroptere now holding record (ratified) at 51.36 with crew claiming 61 knot peaks. (http://www.hydroptere.com/_en/) was wondering what windsurfers were doing about it ??? Anybody getting near 60knots ???

I know my speeds havent gone up at all in 4 years ??? Anything in pipeline Starboard ???

davide
15th October 2009, 02:54 PM
With kite having broken 50knots And Sebastien Cattelan claiming 53.37 k with 61.7 Vmax

(see http://www.surfertoday.com/kiteboarding/2368-sebastien-cattelan-prepares-to-beat-lhydroptere-in-the-luderitz-speed-challenge)

Along with Hydroptere now holding record (ratified) at 51.36 with crew claiming 61 knot peaks. (http://www.hydroptere.com/_en/) was wondering what windsurfers were doing about it ??? Anybody getting near 60knots ???

I know my speeds havent gone up at all in 4 years ??? Anything in pipeline Starboard ???
Not much to do: the Kites can sail in absurdly shallow water, while the sailboats have oustanding efficiency compared to both Kites and windsurfers. Which leaves windsurf dead on the water until it can either sail in 2" of water or develop some new revolutionary rig+board that will probably will not look like a windsurfer at all.

By the way: my personal take is that now that sailboats are going 50 knots in open ocean it is pointless to compare with windsurf or kites that sail in canals or ultra-shallow venues. Sailboats seem to be doing the real sailing, while the rest is confined to very artificial conditions.

Farlo
15th October 2009, 04:15 PM
Color science: "white bottom is lighter and faster"... Or nanoparticle layers that will almost eliminate hull and fin drag.
Davide, this is a good point: at the other end, iceboats are cruising in one mil deep water much faster than any other sailed engine.

Floyd
15th October 2009, 04:41 PM
Dont think Hydroptere did 50k in what you`d call open sea. Fair enough it wasn`t a canal but it was in a massive harbour.They flipped it in open sea 18 months ago; outer fin (partly resposible for opposing heeling) cant maintain negative lift (down force) in big seas, ie in wave troughs it looses force; boat can (and has ) flipped. For its size it still needs relatively flat water.
(Yes I know outer ama is also full of water; but foil does do its bit)
In rough conditions suspect WS is still fastest ???

Papounet
15th October 2009, 06:36 PM
Dont think Hydroptere did 50k in what you`d call open sea. Fair enough it wasn`t a canal but it was in a massive harbour.
In rough conditions suspect WS is still fastest ???
Really BIIIIIG Harbour....
http://maps.google.fr/?ie=UTF8&ll=43.074656,6.239548&spn=0.113605,0.220757&t=h&z=12

http://www.hydroptere.com/images_data/base_image2_678.jpg

In rough conditions.....


- Transatlantic W to E, Ambrose Light – Lizard Point
=> "Banque Populaire 5" 131 ft Tri, Pascal Bidegorry FRA, 3d 15h 25m 48s 32.94 kts
=> 24 H, 908.2nm 37.84 kts
Try to do the same on 500 m

Look at the GPS in open water
http://www.wat.tv/video/banque-populaire-record-traversee-1ovc7_11ehg_.html

And there, they cn drink a cup of tea at 41 Knots
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPIJXf3QTzo

viking
15th October 2009, 07:08 PM
Yes, I can be said that the Hydroptere record was beatten in open water.

So, why windsurfing does not seem able to participate to this record hunt? I see one main reason: money. The record of Antoine Albeau can be improved (it was not make by really ideal conditions: choppy canal, run too downwind a absolute freezing cold) but windsurfers would need a big amount of cash to do so to allow our champions to totally dedicate their time to this hunt - as the kiters do. We need to find the good spot (massive wind everyday) and to built there the good infrastructure and then stick Albeau 6 months there... But who would pay for this?

Unregistered
15th October 2009, 08:09 PM
What an excellent idea !
It should obviously be an Anglo-French effort with Guy Cribb and Antoine.
We will provide a nice windy location like the Falklands.
The French have lots of money so they can pay....
Simple really.

Papounet
15th October 2009, 08:21 PM
Thats false !
We have the worst economic systeme off all EU & every one says that UK have the best...

French people are very very poor, but they have the best man for the Job ( not Sarko of course )
English have the best financial place, with a lot of money in traders pockets.

Floyd
15th October 2009, 08:28 PM
Hi Papounet
Yes I agree those speeds are damned impressive and even more so in conditions encountered but they aren`t the record. Point to remember with Hydroptere is that it easily doubles wind speed; believe on record day it was gusting to 32 knots ;windy but by no means howling . (especially for that region) Its the efficiency of Hydroptere which is trully astounding;resultant of foiling ???

Hydroptere (reputedly) has topped out at 60 knots +; they are now working towards breaking 100km/h barrier. Not sure wether craft you mentioned are foilers but I doubt it.(Dont think the long voyage tri`s are)
Hydroprere(the one built for 500 m and 1000m records) definitely is. Wonder if way forward for us is foiling ??? Wonder what a windsurfer could do if we could emulate this efficiency in ???

Do you really want to make a cup of tea whilst trying to break record ????

Unregistered
15th October 2009, 08:39 PM
There are new rules regarding min depth of water for record attempt.

“For every record attempt on a WSSRC approved course, there must be a minimum depth of water, which is defined as follows.
At the time of the run in question, the shallowest part of the course must be covered by water with a depth of at least half the static immersed beam of the craft involved, or 10cm, whichever is the greater. (Guidance note) To define the depth requirement, the craft or board involved should be afloat and the widest part of the hull or hulls touching the water should be measured. In the case of a multihull, the widest hull is measured or hydrofoil if fitted. In the case of an event involving a number of competing craft, the WSSRC Observer can announce at the commencement of the event what the minimum depth requirement will be.”

I don’t now how they will define the depth requirement for kite since I don’t think that kite board floats, at least not with kiteboarder on it.

Papounet
15th October 2009, 09:08 PM
Hydroptere as not been built for 500 m speed record, but for médium distance open water speed records.
"February 9, 2005: The symbolic cross-Channel record by airman Louis Blériot in 1909 is smashed by Hydroptère in 34 minutes and 24 seconds with an average speed of 33 knots."

It's the same ship but modified for short distance, that break the wall.

For "Banque populaire V" not a foiler, but look at the retractable center-board.
These ships are not built for absolute speed records, but they can run at an incredible speed even in rough sea.
Next step, around the world between november 2009 and january 2010.

http://www.voile.banquepopulaire.fr/pics/6/0/800/600/858/real/E373548C360D4805B7E0C43214D21D16.jpg

davide
15th October 2009, 10:37 PM
“For every record attempt on a WSSRC approved course, there must be a minimum depth of water, which is defined as follows.
At the time of the run in question, the shallowest part of the course must be covered by water with a depth of at least half the static immersed beam of the craft involved, or 10cm, whichever is the greater. (Guidance note) T

I don’t now how they will define the depth requirement for kite since I don’t think that kite board floats, at least not with kiteboarder on it.
Yep, At Lüderitz water depth is "10 cm" although the runs are so close to shore that probably water gets even shallower. The rule was a compromise from last year, and frankly I find it a bit absurd. 10 cm is ankle depth and to call "sailing" sailing in conditions in which you cannot even swim is kind of funny. Too bad that such a rule is in the books, I personally would have been much more stringent, and use maybe the world average height for men or women (1.6-1.8 meters) as a minimal depth.

Sailboats are now in even deeper water and it is a gigantic breakthrough.

Floyd
15th October 2009, 11:08 PM
Hi Papounet
Think you`ll find Hydroptere is not a single craft but a series of crafts designed and built with specific records in mind. The craft recently used in in 500m and 100m records would not be used for "passage " sailing records. (Not in its current guise of foiling rudder and foiling amas;with water balast exchange) (apart from perhaps channel hop; on selected days)
(Imagine transfering ballast every tack; I diont think even Banc Populaire (a non foiling Tri ; which unusual to non-foiling Tri`s raises its middle hull to gain extremely large anti heeling moment.; only thing in coomon with Hydroptere)


I dont think Hydroptere 500m record holder will ever be seen mid Atlantic ???

Floyd
15th October 2009, 11:25 PM
Davide
I sort of agree with you but water condition is obviously relative to craft size. The water condition for last record (With Hydroptere) was (for Hydroptere)almost flat.Plus bigger craft can use deeper foils to get out of the "rough" part of the sea and consequently is sailing on perfectly flat water.(Its hulls are not in the water from 20knots) (Another benefit of foils) Problem arises when foil comes close enough to surface to aerate; which is problem with smaller foiling craft craft. We dont disqualify Hydroptere for finding flat water (under surface) ???!!! The the cost of doing so is prohibitive for 99.999% of sailors. Dont get me wrong Hydroptere is fantastic and well deserves its record and I would love to sail on it.But (IMHO) it should be a free for all with no rules. If you can sail/kite 500m on water at 55knots you should take the record.Kite board;windsurfer or foiler !!!

Unregistered
15th October 2009, 11:40 PM
The Banc Populaire and Hydroptere are completely different craft. Hydroptere uses a development of Bruce foils; where leeward foil gives lift and windward foil pulls back into water to counteract heeling. If you look at foil on BP its a dagger is 90 degrees to hull whereas foil on Hydroprtere is pointing back in intowards boat.(45 degrees?)(Leaning in that way means that because of leeway (under sail) it "pulls" hull into water.(when its windward foil, reverses on other tack) When flying its balanced on rudder (foiled) leeward foil and heeling force of sail. (Hydroptere also fills its windward "float" with water)

Its one big balancing act with tons of force going through beams !!!