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eric b 125
19th December 2009, 10:43 PM
i used to sail a lot as a kid, took 15 years to get back into it. i've been sailing a fanatic ultra cat w/ some old sails ( 6.2 and 7.2). i weigh about 82kg, 5'10", and i would get planing on most days using the 6.2. i got enough use of the old equipment to realize this was something i really want to do. looking for a new board. was thinking the futura 144L and a 7.0 rig. i mostly sail lakes, but would like to take my equip on vacation and try the ocean if i feel i am ready. i dont mind dropping a few grand on equipment that i can grow technically with for a few years. i dont know much about the lingo and technical info, so you might have to dumb it down a little for now. i'm sure i'll have a lot more questions and i really appreciate your help.

Roger
20th December 2009, 12:31 AM
Hi Eric B 125... welcome back to windsurfing!
Your UltraCat is a great longboard (they are still raced very successfully) but to get shortboard planing performance, the UltraCat will never give you the same feel.
Since you have the balance mastered (on your UltraCat) the transition to short board
should be fairly easy.
What sort of wind speed do you have on your local lakes?
A 7.0 m2 rig on a Futura 144 sounds a bit small.
Your UltraCat goes "through" the water quite easily, but with the Futura you will need to
get up on top of the water and that basically requires a larger sail.
If you are still using the sails/mast/boom that came with your UltraCat (or is of that vintage) you are in for a treat with the modern sails/masts/booms.
Modern rigs are much lighter!
I would suggest an 8.5 m2 rig for the Futura 144. Get a high carbon (or 100% carbon) mast that weighs about 50% less than your Vintage Fanatic UltraCat rig.
Add a carbon boom to keep the rig weight down and you should have a really great
board/rig setup for winds up to around 15 knots.
Try to make sure the mast is compatible (buy the mast and sail from the same manufacturer)) with your new sail (s).
Hope this helps,

eric b 125
20th December 2009, 08:12 AM
roger, thanks for the info. really i only rigged the 6.2 since it was a slalom-foil rig. the 7.2 was one of those sails that was mostly fabric with a window in the middle of it. an 8.5 seems mighty big to me, but what you said regarding weight makes a lot of sense. now, is there a way if i buy an 8.5 rig that i could use the mast and boom on sails that are larger and smaller, so i have more variety of sails? i've been spending a lot of time "window shopping" the internet and when it comes to technical information about sails, i get pretty lost. also, as far as fins are concerned: i'd like to get 2 (one weed). i am beginning to understand the importance of fins and how they work. is going w/ the longer fins the way to go? what is the downside to having a longer fin in lower winds? i really appreciate the help. i found in my salwater fish hobby that online communities like this are one of the best places to ask questions and get straight answers.

eric b 125
20th December 2009, 08:58 AM
should i be looking at cam-less sails, or cambered sails? what difference do cams make? the sail i used before had cams, and at times it took some real effort to get the sail to switch when i flipped it around. i dont know if that's because of my rigging, or because of the cams...?

Roger
20th December 2009, 11:14 AM
Hi Eric,
8.5 m2 sails normally require a 490 cm mast with a IMCS (Indexed Mast Check System) bend number of 28-32. (What you need to know here is that a 490 cm mast is stiffer than a
460 cm mast).
You can adjust the length of the mast to some degree using the mast extension, but you cannot alter the mast bend characteristics. Suffice to say you really cannot use an extended
460 mast in a sail designed for a 490 mast because the stiffness is different.
If you have a 460 mast, and it's a good one, you may be able to use it with more modern sails. (Tell me the brand of mast you have and any numbers near the base and we can probably tell if it's any good. If it's the pink (coral maybe?) or aqua (bluish green) color Fanatic mast it probably bends OK, but it will be quite heavy compared to a modern mast.
If you were to get an 8.5 m2 then you would want another sail in the 6.8-7.2 m2 range.
As far as fins go longer is not always better because the longer the fin, the higher the drag.
Huge fins have some advantages, but they require very wide boards to allow the sailor to control them.
For the Futura 141, the stock fin that comes with the board (maybe no fin if you get an 2010 board) is a 50 cm slalom design. This will work pretty well, but for an 8.5 m2 rig
you might want to go larger to about 56cm.
For a weed fin, you can go much shorter because weed fins have significantly more area.
There are several brands of weed fins here in the USA. I'd suggest a 39-42 cm weed fin for the Futura 141.
There is no downside to having larger fins in light winds. Larger fins generally get you planing earlier.
As far as your question regarding cambered sails, you do not need that much complexity at your level. Get something without cams (they add weight and complexity and will not give you any noticeable gains at your skill level) that's easy to rig correctly, get the light mast and hopefully a light boom and you should be good.
As far as cambers not rotating, that could easily be a rigging/tuning issue, but cambered sails are pretty much universally more difficult to get rotated than camless sails.
Hope this helps,

eric b 125
20th December 2009, 09:19 PM
i dont plan on using any of my old equipment, including the mast and boom. the mast i have is light green and it's a one piece deal. all of the guys i sail with use a 2 piece mast. are most new masts made in this 2 piece construction? i have the mast holder for my thule rack, but it seems these 2 piece jobs are much easier to work with as far as packing the car goes. (i'm a sucker for small details). another thing i was thinking about last night was my dad always rolled the sails up around a big piece of pvc, so they wouldnt fold, but nobody i sail with bothers to do this. is this something i will still need to do on a new sail? i will be ordering the board in the next few weeks, but i may wait on ordering the rig package until i learn more about sails. do you think the 141 L is the way to go?

eric b 125
20th December 2009, 09:56 PM
while browsing the web, doing some pricing on rigs, i've come across a few questions. its a gaastra matrix 8.5/ chinook triple clamp alloy boom / fiberspar reflex 3200 30% carbon mast. what is the luff ( 516 on this sail)? what does the boom # stand for (233)? the mast is a 490/ 29, so thats the length in cm/ IMCS bend number, eh? what does the base # stand for (26). i take it the mast foot doesnt come w/ the rig. is there a specific type to get for certain boards? do i need a mast extension when ordering complete rigs, or is that if i wanted to use my mast on a larger sail?

i apologize for all the elementary questions, i just want to know what i'm ordering.

Roger
20th December 2009, 11:10 PM
Hi Eric,
1/all of the guys i sail with use a 2 piece mast. are most new masts made in this 2 piece construction?
Yes, most masts are now 2 piece as this makes them easier to ship when new and easier for the customer to store and transport.

2/ i have the mast holder for my thule rack, but it seems these 2 piece jobs are much easier to work with as far as packing the car goes. (i'm a sucker for small details).
Yes, much easier, but you must remember to get the ferrule (the joint in the middle) fully seated and it's a good idea to buy a roll of vinyl electrical tape and tape the joint when it fully seated to keep sand and grit out of the ferrule, making the mast easy to take apart at the end of the day.

3/ another thing i was thinking about last night was my dad always rolled the sails up around a big piece of pvc, so they wouldnt fold, but nobody i sail with bothers to do this. is this something i will still need to do on a new sail?

The new sail will come to you all rolled up, in a bag. No need to put PVC in the middle and no need to remove the battens like your dad probably did. Once you get the batten tension set originally and a couple of minor adjustments to take care of the sails initial "stretch", you can leave the batten tension alone unless you are storing the sail for more than a couple of months. Then it's a good idea to back the tension off until the batten tension is zero.

4/ i will be ordering the board in the next few weeks, but i may wait on ordering the rig package until i learn more about sails. do you think the 141 L is the way to go?

The Futura 141 sounds about right to me for your weight. You could get the more durable GO version of the same board, but it's much heavier.
As you learn fast shortboarding, you will at some time go over the front and break/crack the nose (it's just part of the learning curve, happens to almost everyone, and can be alleviated by getting/making a multi density foan "nose protector".

5/its a gaastra matrix 8.5/ chinook triple clamp alloy boom / fiberspar reflex 3200 30% carbon mast.

Everything is good here except the 30% carbon mast. I would not suggest anything less than 75-85% carbon for a 490 mast. A 30% carbon mast is very heavy.
Here's the weight of the various carbon content Sailworks Masts:
Light Stick (Pro Race very $$) 1.7 Kg (3.747 Lbs.)
Speed Stick 100% 2.0 Kg. (4.409 Lbs.)
Joy Stick 75% 2.3 Kg (5.07 Lbs)
Compare these to the weight of the 30% masts you are looking at.
Remember, you will be uphauling this rig for a while (until your learn to waterstart, and even then when you are in winds too light to water start), 516 cm (490cm mast + 26 cm mast extension) is 20.3 feet long and you are at the wrong end of the leverage here.
The mast weight is very important! Lighter is better, specially when you are just starting out.

6/ what is the luff ( 516 on this sail)?

This number is the "Luff Length" (the total length of the mast the sail needs to rig correctly). It consists of the 490 cm mast + 26 cm of mast base extension (you set the seating ring on the mast extension at 26 cm).

7/what does the boom # stand for (233)?

This is the boom length. You need at least an extra 10 cm for adjustment.
For this sail (Boom length 233 cm) I would suggest a boom rated at a minimum of
250 cm as running booms at their fullest extension makes them weaker and less stiff.

8/ the mast is a 490/ 29, so thats the length in cm/ IMCS bend number, eh? what does the base # stand for (26).

Yes to all of these, sounds like you've got it! The 26 cm is the height you set the extension at to get a
516 cm luff length.

9/ i take it the mast foot doesnt come w/ the rig. is there a specific type to get for certain boards?

Correct, the mast base does not come with either the rig or the board so you will have to purchase one. They cost < $100 normally. Chinook makes some good ones, but be sure to get the mast base that's "on center". If it rotates off center, there can be issues with both performance and reliability.

10/do i need a mast extension when ordering complete rigs, or is that if i wanted to use my mast on a larger sail?

Yes, you will need a mid size mast extension to work with this sail.
They come in 3 sizes: 12 cm..... 28 cm.... 48 cm.
You do not need an expensive carbon mast extension. The aluminum extensions are
more reliable and are at the bottom of the mast where a few ounces of weight makes almost
no difference.
If you get the Gaastra 8.5, I would buy 2 mast extensions so you can go to larger sails later on.
The 28 cm medium extension will work on the 8.5, but you may need as much as 46 cm extension on
larger sails so get a tall extension as well.

i apologize for all the elementary questions, i just want to know what i'm ordering.
Hey, you don't have this information and I'd like to see you get good information without
a lot of sales hype!
Hope this helps,
Roger

eric b 125
21st December 2009, 05:10 AM
roger, excellent info in there!

i will have to call the place that has this sale on their website to see if i can choose the size of the boom as far as the package is concerned. the 'course' style boom is 182-244, but there is a 'formula' style that is 1 1/4" 223-285. i'll see if i can upgrade the upgrade. i dont mind paying the extra few bucks.

as far as the mast extension goes, rather than buy two, cant i just get the 48 cm and call it a day?

eric b 125
21st December 2009, 09:22 AM
there are some dudes at the lake that have mast bases that have a nose protector built in, so if the rig is coming down onto the nose, it hits this wheel in the mast base that directs the sail to the side. are you familiar with these things? are there downsides to having one, other than having to walk around them?

COACHG
21st December 2009, 10:04 AM
Yes, it can damage your mast. Better to damage the nose of your board because it can be fixed. A broken mast can't be fixed. The item you are talking about is called the Deviator.

Coachg

Roger
21st December 2009, 10:37 AM
Hi Eric B,
The 244 boom will work on the 8.5 m2 rig just fine. You only need an extra 10 cm for adjustments. But the larger Course boom would be a good upgrade.
Before we go any further, what size boards and sails are the other sailors at your lake using.
I based my suggestion for the 8.5 m2 rig purely on the size of the board and I'm not sure how/why you selected the Futura 141.
As far as the mast extension, just get the mid size 28 cm.
Putting too much mast base up inside you mast can cause mast breakage and interfere with the mast bend on some sails at the lower batten creating bottom batten rotation issues.
The device you are talking about ( as Coach suggests) can be hard on masts, has been know to "rip" the mast box out of some boards, and to me it's just terrifying. If you ever got a finger, toe, arm or leg caught on top of the wheel think of the forces 20 feet of mast could exert at about 3" from the pivot. Scary!
Also, when you get to waterstarting, the Deviator will be totally in the way.
I like the multi-density foam nose pad which you can remove once you get beyond the catapault stage.
Check with the other sailors at your lake, and make sure that the Futura 141/8.5 m2 rig is a good combination for the conditions there.
If not, you might consider a smaller board and rig.
Hope this helps,

eric b 125
21st December 2009, 11:29 AM
thanks for the replies guys.

the people that sail at the local lake ride boards that are similar in size to the 144, with sails from 7.0 to 10.5's. so i feel like i'm at a comfortable medium sail-wise. from the reviews i've read on the futura 144 i get the impression that it will be the best direction for me to take... or am i just jaded by all the marketing hype?

Roger
21st December 2009, 11:40 AM
Hi Eric b,
The Futura line of boards are quite good. I don't thnk you can go wrong with
the Futura 141 and your skill level.
The Futura will be more fragile than your old Ultra Cat, but if you take good care of
it (most damage occurs off the water except for nose dings from catapaults), keep it
in a bag to minimize transport damage, it will serve you well.
Hope this helps,

eric b 125
21st December 2009, 07:54 PM
it will be okay on a roof rack in a bag, though, wont it?

Roger
21st December 2009, 11:01 PM
Hi Eric,
Absolutely!

eric b 125
22nd December 2009, 04:13 AM
perfect... now if only they're not sold out in 3 weeks...

joe_windsurfer
22nd December 2009, 05:38 AM
hey eric B
also saw your post on windsurf mag :)
it was i who suggested this site to you ....

one question - what is the rush to buy ??
you have months to surf the web, non ??

if you find a local w/s shop , they will have price-less info!!!

also, some more technical details - not just ANY mast goes with the sail
it is HIGHLY recommended that you purchase the matching mast with sail

and as i stated, sailworks 7.0 works with a 490 as well
for me my go-to sail @ 100 kg is my MauiSails Pursuit 8.5 in 20 to 40 kph
each person and each location has different criteria
@ same beach i saw a fellow use a 4.x sail in huge winds
i did NOT go out that day - way too much for me :(

chatting on-line is one thing, but discussions @ the beach and @ the w/s shop helped me immensely
some places have training/courses - or if you have the funds, now is the time to go SOUTH
there are spots set up for just that - w/s and more w/s
nothing is guaranteed and my w/s guy told me about one year where it did not blow @ all %^&*
he never knew his w/s customers could swear so much and drinks got expensive:-)
all that to say - keep reading , asking and try before you bite - if you can
(although one cannot knock the Futura !!! nor the iSonic for that matter)

joe_windsurfer
22nd December 2009, 07:51 PM
hey...

just re-read an article in windsport on boards in the 130 range

perhaps you could consider futura 133 ?? or isonic 131 ??
since you are already an aggressive snowboarder

if you are crazy like me - snowfer or windski and start in the winter :)

eric b 125
22nd December 2009, 08:34 PM
joe_windsurfer: first let me thank you for sending me this way! i've gotten a lot of info here as well as the other forum. i had one hell of a time trying to find windsurfing forums that had active users to get info from.

i'm in no rush to buy, because like you said, i still have months until the lake thaws! i'd love to head south for a little, but i'm in nursing school right now and my next break isnt until april. i would like to get the board relatively soon, only because i see online stores selling out of them quickly.

there are no w/s shops around pittsburgh... there's simply not a high enough demand around here. i've learned, through my saltwater hobby, that the best place to get information is from hobbists (or in this case windsurfers) who are not looking to get commission on a sale. i could be wrong as far as this sport goes, but so far i've gotten some great information.

i was thinking of considering a 133 if the 144's are sold out. but at my weight ~90kg, my experience level, and the fact that i do most of my sailing in pittsburgh where there isnt tons of wind all the time, i think the 144 would be my best bet. i get the impression it will be big enough for my novice sea-legs, but agile enough for when i am able to throw it around. i guess i have a fear of going too small. considering i am upgrading from a 20 year old 12', 248 L beast, a 144 seems tiny in comparison.

COACHG
23rd December 2009, 12:36 AM
Eric,
If most of the sailors on your local lake are rigging 7.0-10.5 sails on what appears to be 145 liter boards then a 133 liter board may be too small for you. Are the other sailors smaller then you, your size or much bigger then you? If they are much bigger then you then going down to the 133 would make sense. If the other sailors are not bigger then you then I think you should look for something larger then the 140 liter range if you decide to go with a different sized board.

Coachg

eric b 125
23rd December 2009, 12:42 AM
sailors of similar size to me sail boards in the 140 range... give or take. a lot of these dudes have several boards, and many rigs, so they can change their setups according to the wind.

Juigree09
27th December 2009, 02:16 AM
hi i am just wondering i got two small goldfish... can i keep other fish together with it...? i rmb hearing goldfish like to be just themselves... as my tank is a bit big for the fish so thinking of adding some other fish in..