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View Full Version : Light-wind Blaster 140-155L - iSonic or Futura?


ChrisN
20th April 2010, 07:50 PM
Dear SB team

I am considering a light-wind board - not a Formula though! Looking for either Futura or iSonic in the range of 140-155L for planning in 5-15 knots.

I'm appr. 90 Kgs (185 pounds?) proficient (np to waterstart in smaller boards), yet I am learning slalom gybing. I expect to sail that board in relatively flat waters with wind chop (typically off- to sideshore winds).

I have 3 freerace sails in 6.5, 7.5 and 8.5 m2 (Simmer) and consider a 9.5 (if I can fit in on a 490 cm mast w. extender).

I need to fit this board in between the following:

Naish 11'9 SUP (for light-wind fun) for 1-5 kns
NEW BOARD for 5-15 knts
RRD X-Fire 120L 2009: 15-20 knts
SB HyperSonic 105 (from 2003, yet acquired new in 2007): 20-25 knts


What board would you recommend me :confused:? Should I go for the:

iSonic 144 or 150?
Futura 141 or 155?


Finally, should I go for WC or Wood? Also seems that the 2009-10 models are VERY similar! Any recommendations are highly appreciated! :rolleyes:

Best Regards and thanks for this great forum :)

ChrisN

Ken
20th April 2010, 09:40 PM
ChrisN,

Not on the team, but here are a few points.

At 90 kg, you will not plane in 5 knots on anything with any sail.

Your best bet for the earliest planing board is the iSonic 150, a wider board both at the mid point and the tail than the Futura.

All of the boards are great below 15 knots

Even with the iS 150 and your 8.5, the threshold for planing will be about 9-10 knots at best with a lot of pumping. If you want to get going in 7 or 8 knots, then you need a much larger sail. The 9.5 will be a good choice, but an 11.0 will give you the best bottom end (new mast and boom?).

The smaller iSonics are a more technical ride than the Futuras, but I don't know anything about the differences in the larger boards. Someone from the Team will have to help you here. They can also help you with the WC or Wood choice.

Hope this helps a bit.

ChrisN
20th April 2010, 10:42 PM
Thanks a lot. Your comments are already putting things in perspective. Sounds that in the 7-15 knts range the best board would be the iSonic 150!

For my weight (~90kg), is the difference btw. iSonics 144L/85cm and 150l/93.5cm so large? Do the 8,5 cms in additional width and 6L volume help planning in the 5-10 knts?

What you also wrote about the sails makes sense. I would need a 11-12 m2 sail, yet even from 9.5 m2, I would need a new mast+boom!

Thanks so far!
ChrisN

agrelon
21st April 2010, 02:39 PM
Thanks a lot. Your comments are already putting things in perspective. Sounds that in the 7-15 knts range the best board would be the iSonic 150!

For my weight (~90kg), is the difference btw. iSonics 144L/85cm and 150l/93.5cm so large? Do the 8,5 cms in additional width and 6L volume help planning in the 5-10 knts?

What you also wrote about the sails makes sense. I would need a 11-12 m2 sail, yet even from 9.5 m2, I would need a new mast+boom!

Thanks so far!
ChrisN

Hi Chris,

I posted a thread a while back about early planing and the conclusion reached was that for planing in 6 knots and above, at your weight, you're going to need an 11m2 rig, with a formula/super wide board and 70cm fin. I reckon an iSonic 150 (definitely WC for lightwind planing) with maybe a Severne Overdrive 11m2 (I wouldn't go for a full on race sail as it will probably be too heavy and more expensive).

The good thing about this set up is you will get the earliest planing possible and the range should be perfect from 6 to 15 knots of wind.

The bad thing is that it's probably going to be quite expensive (new mast, boom, fin, board) BUT you will get as close to formula style early planing as possible without being on a full on formula board.

I'm just regurgitating what I've learnt in earlier threads so you definitely want to hear back from someone on the team.

ChrisN
21st April 2010, 03:16 PM
Agrelon, thanks for your reply and recommendations given previous threads.

It does make sense as you say to go for the 11 m2 Rig (which is going to be quite expensive) on an iS150. Many people like that board in the forum so it would probably be beat choice.

My question though is whether an 11 m2 on an iSonic 144 would be as good for early planning as the iSonic 150 in my weight-class (~90kgs).
While the iS144 is only 85 cm wide to iS150's 93 cm, you can buy the iS144 in WoodCarbon (iS150 only in Wood), which is ~1,5 kg lighter!

Thus the question to the team (Remi, Roger, etc) is iS144 WC vrs. iS150 W on an 11m2 - which one will plane first in flatwater conditions in 7-9 knots?

Regards
Chris

agrelon
21st April 2010, 04:23 PM
I didn't realize that 150 wasn't made in WC. Interesting trade off between a WC 144 and W150, weight for width. I would probably go for the 144 WC. I think the reduced weight will make it more fun to sail, and at least partly make up for the reduced width compared to the 150. I'm pretty sure both with an 11m2 rig and the same fin would plane up in 7 knots.

The 150 might plane up tiny tiny bit earlier (again, for the team to answer) but I would rather trade off that very marginal planing ability for a livelier, lighter board which is going to be more fun when the wind picks up a bit.

Ken
21st April 2010, 10:45 PM
Chris,

I think the extra width of the iS 150 is more critical to early planing than the weight difference, plus you can use a longer fin which will also help. The extra volume of the 150 may help a little, but it is somewhat insignificant.

At your weight, to plane in 7 knots, it will take a 12.0 sail and a formula board, so don't get your hopes up. I have an 11.0 and a formula board (last 8 years) and weigh 78kg, so I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to plane. I sail were the winds are variable (up and down), but with pumping, I can get on plane in about 8 knots. At 10 knots, planing and speed increase significantly, at 6-7 knots, I fall off plane.

With the 150 and an 11.0, you will not have much fun unless the wind is at 10 knots or more. You may be able to plane in 8-9 knots, but you won't be able to point or bear off much, so you will be stuck with just beam reaching. With the wind over 10 knots, you will be able to point moderately high and run off the wind about 110+ degrees with good speed & much deeper with more wind. It's a lot more fun if you can take advantage of the large board and sail all over the lake/ocean rather than staying in one place.

mark h
21st April 2010, 11:49 PM
Hi Chris
Sorry to cut in on the SB team, but just read this and thought I'd chip in with my 2 cents worth:)

I have tested the iS144 and the iS150 back to back with 9m, 10, and 11m Warps. Here's what I learn't. Bear in mind I'm 105kg and 196cm.

*iS144 with an 11m will "not" go any earlier than a 10m. Too much sail weight on board and slogging is fairly hard going if the wind disappears. 9m and 10m are best for this board.

*In winds ranging from 10 to 20 knots (9m and 10m), the iS144 feels faster, is faster, gybes better and is generally more fun c/w iS150.

*In the winds that you state, 5k to 15k you will need the iS150 and at least a 10m and a grunt 64cm fin. In reality, 5 knots is not do-able, so 7 or 8 knots to 15 knots is more like it. In this lighter spectrum, the main difference between the iS144 & iS150 is that the iS150 will feel more "powered up" and better upwind/down wind angles c/w the iS144 which will be struggling in sub 10k winds. Yes, the iS144 will get going (with active slalom style ridding) in sub 10k, but its very physically hard work to do "all day long" and you will feel "under powered" with poor upwind/down wind angles.

*If your sailing in sub 10 knots most of the time, then your much better going with a Formula board and 10/11m. If your sailing mainly in 10 to 12 knots than iS150/10m is fine. If your sailing in 12 to 15k the iS144/9m is fine. Just depends on whether your in the up or lower end of the wind range you quoted.

As a guide for minimum winds to get planing, and ideal winds to feel fast and powered up, I'd go with this (but bear in mind there are lots of variables):

iS144: Min wind in 10m, 9/10 knots (feeling under powered and pretty slow)
Ideal winds in 9m, 12k to 20 knots, Feeling powered up, big smiles all
round:)

iS150: Min wind in 10m, 8/10 knots (feeling ok powered, much more powered than iS144)
Ideal wind in 10m, 10 to 15 knots, feeling powered up nicely.

Jean-Marc
22nd April 2010, 06:01 AM
Chris,

Good advices were given above for a true planing hull above 7/8 knots winds with +11 m2 sails. You will need to extend the upper wind range of your SUP up to that wind value to cover it all.

However, for true 5-15 knot wind range, you can also consider a Phantom 380 with a grunty 9.5 sail. You have both world of gliding and planing with only 1 setup. Much more fun than schlogging on a Formula/wide iSonic below 7/8 knots wind limits but slower than a full-on wide planing hull above 8-10 knots. The bonus is that you can skip the costly addition of a newly complete +11 m2 rigg setup.

By playing the devil's advocate, have you tried your SUP in 10-15 knots winds already? What kind of sails are you using ? How good/bad is it WRT schlogging/planing ? Most importantly, is it fun to you ?

Cheers!

JM

ChrisN
22nd April 2010, 06:29 PM
Jean-Marc I agree, the Agrelon, Ken and Mark H. deserve a Medal, and I hope SB appreciates the time & effort they put into advicing and sharing their great experiences with your products for newbies of low-wind windsurfing like myself. I'm impressed by details of Ken's and MarkH's responses - Ken's experience in sub-10 knts sailing, and Mark's excellent comparison of the iS144 and iS150.

No doubt that sub-6 knts windsurfing is a major challenge, yet for a guy like me that started windsurfing in 1979, and continued for 25Y as a short-board, sinker dude, coming up to a SUP has been quite a deja-vu from my haydays of Mistral Competition Epoxy (18 kgs masterpiece in '79), and my Division 2 racing in 81-82. Then everything about low wind dissappeared for these 3 decades until after a 5Y break I thought I should return into the Windsurfing ratrace. Yet, to get into shape I bought an SUP (11'9, 230L) from Naish, which actually got me into this whole exciting puzzles of Slalom and Low-wind gear.

The Naish SUP with a 8.5 Simmer 3XC can sail from app 2 -10 knts without a problem, yet its length and weight (have you remarked that no SUP manufacturer state "weight"?) make it a snail when it comes to planning. Love Ken's points on "pumping", cause coming on a SUP you really learn what the word means, as the surface is not easy to "unstick". As I sometimes sail a spot with swells, in no wind it's important to have some speed, so to get onboard and waveride (which is a LOT of fun). So SUPsailing in low-winds is fun in waves, while on flatwater not exactly exhilarating; not the way Ken described it as coming up 'n down. Maybe a better fin (=longer weed fin), would make the SUP come up to plane faster?

Above 12 knts the SUP even with its loooong, small pintail becomes a chop-smacking, "slamming door" type of experience with massive volume in the front-end to mid sections (like the Cobra boards of the mid 80's). I've sailed a Formula board once and it gave me a different feeling, yet the door effect was still there!
The difference btw the SUP and Windsurfing boards became very apparent as I switched from the SUP to sailing the RRD X-Fire 120L right after. It was such a transition of sensation of acceleration and sound - going from the bang-bang of a snail to the shwwww of a fast-moving racer - both on a well trimmed 8.5 Cambered sail with a 48 MFC fin. It was a trip and then I catapulted in a damn weed island!

What is also evident in your own marketing, is that light-weight is important in low-winds acceleration! I tried a Technora & WC Futura 122 in 7.5m2 (15 knts) winds last year in Egypt, and there was definitely a difference in acceleration and keeping the board on plane - ít felt like the "lightness" took you faster through lulls.

That's why I kept asking the question to you/Team on "Width versus Weight" for 2 boards (iS144-150) that are extremely close when sailed in 10-11m2 and around on avg. 2,5 Beauf. or 10 knots.
a) If I put a 11m2 Overdrive on a WC iS144 with a 6x cm fin, it's still a floater for me (as I'm 15 kgs lighter than Mark, yet my bad technique will make me follow his recoms). It will blast then from 10 knts.
b) The "heavier" iS150 Wood will be able to reach planning faster given its width (Ken mentioned: "only slightly"!), thus I can just as well go for a monster sail (12> m2) for 8-16 knots range of sailing. Yet we are not abs clear here!

Have you done any such weight to width comparisons? If WIDTH is more important than WEIGHT, then why did you launch a WC line at all? JP has a GOLD line with Carbon+Honeycomb, often >1-2 Kg lighter than their normal Wood cousins (e.g. JP Super Sport 74 V127 with Length: 250 cm /8'2" , Width: 74 cm /29.1", rec sails: 6.0-9.0m2 and Volume: 127 liters, comes in 3 variants GOLD: 6.6 kg/14.6 lbs, PRO/Same as SB's WC(?): 7.0 kg/15.4 lbs, and FWS/FULL WOOD SANDWICH/similar to EB Wood(?): 8.0 kg/17.6 lbs - all with variances of ±6%). If WIDTH as in the Formula boards is such an issue, why does everyone makes boards on the 120+ cm ranges - my suspiction is that they are not FUN to sail in "normal" = Choppy seas. So, can you please chip in in this final round - if Width is IT, then I'll go for it, and drop all pretenses of buyng a cool lighter board for lighter winds...

Non-team folks, thanks for all the given advice so far! Let SB then enlighten us on the Weight vrs Width issue (unless all of you gurus have done that too) ;-D

Regards'
Chris

agrelon
22nd April 2010, 06:47 PM
Just thought I should pickup on one thing you said:

"If WIDTH is more important than WEIGHT, then why did you launch a WC line at all?"

I think what you're missing to spot here is that weight is not the only variable when changing material. Woodcarbon is much stiffer than technora, so even if the weight of these materials were the same, the WC one would be more efficient and have a cleaner release meaning it would still plain earlier, work better through lulls, etc, despite the same weight.

I would always opt for a wood/WC board. After changing from my protec AHD - JP 106l (wood) and then my Futura 93l (wood) the difference in feeling of the board on the water/hitting chop is really significant.

Both the AHD and the JP were from the from the same year, and the JP was a nominal 1cm less wide but MAN did the JP plane up earlier! I'll always remember how surprised I was the first time I tried it, the thing just kept accelerating and got onto a plane super quick (and I ended up getting catapulted cause I never got my back foot in the strap before hitting topspeed...)

So yeah, conclusion: construction makes a huge difference for stiffness and not just weight (however, the difference between protec and wood is probably much more significant than between wood and WC).

ChrisN
22nd April 2010, 07:40 PM
Agrelon, good points, and close to my own experiences with the F122. It's true that the stiffness of WC provides a cleaner release thus earlier planning (beyond the weight)!

Bottom-line, if iS150 existed in WC then it would be able to plan btw 1-3 knots earlier than a more "soft" version - right? Would that also be the case for the iS144 in WC vrs. Wood versions?

PG
23rd April 2010, 01:08 PM
At this point I just have to chip in... Weight is significant, but shape, rails and rockerline is much more important! Early planing comes from a straight rocker, a hard and sporty feeling on the vater often comes from minimal vee. On the other hand, a board with deep double concaves often feels very soft on the water.
With regards to your SUP, the reason it does not release properly is not because it is heavy, but because it has a lot of rocker. A Kona One is equally heavy , as is a Phantom raceboard, but both of these boards are fast thanks to a relatively straight rocker.
The Kona One is 350 cm long, has a weight of 16 kg or so (probably more), yet I am faster on it than most freeride guys (and much faster than those on Freestyle boards!).

Claim: construction makes a difference, as does weight, but both are only secondary factors.

I think that in order to do the really lightwind play you should get yourself a Severne Glide 8.5 (I think it will rig well on the mast for your Simmer), and a iSonic 141 (or something in the same size range) or a Futura 144 (may be more forgiving to lesser sail stability than the iSonic). The Glide is made exclusively to push down the planing threshold, and should equal a 10 m2 regular sail. I think that a board smaller than iS 150 will be more fun immediately when teh wind has filled in a little.
And then I do think you should switch to a 105 liter FSW for your "over 20 knots" sailing. It is a waterstart board for you, but floats you comfortably even with very little sail pull. And is so much fun!

ChrisN
23rd April 2010, 03:01 PM
PG, thanks for your clarifying comments on the Rocker-Scoop line effect on planning. Someone also mentioned that sharper rails ensure quicker release that also help on early planning! I've had my doze of "banana" wave boards in the 80's which could only turn but not plan.:D

Your iS144 recommendations are valid, if I was supposed to jump from the light wind SL board straight to my HyperSonic 105. However, I've already acquired an RRD SL, a 120 X-Fire, which goes like a rocket from 15 knots upwards. Therefore the discussion on SL on the 6-15 knts range. :cool:

The BIG question we have been discussing is whether the same advanced sailor on the same board shape (e.g. iS144) with the same sail (e.g. OverD 9m2) in different weight classes affect how early the board will reach planning?:confused:

E.g. does a iS144 WC plan a 2-3 knots earlier than the same iS144 Wood?

agrelon
23rd April 2010, 07:08 PM
PG, thanks for your clarifying comments on the Rocker-Scoop line effect on planning. Someone also mentioned that sharper rails ensure quicker release that also help on early planning! I've had my doze of "banana" wave boards in the 80's which could only turn but not plan.:D

Your iS144 recommendations are valid, if I was supposed to jump from the light wind SL board straight to my HyperSonic 105. However, I've already acquired an RRD SL, a 120 X-Fire, which goes like a rocket from 15 knots upwards. Therefore the discussion on SL on the 6-15 knts range. :cool:

The BIG question we have been discussing is whether the same advanced sailor on the same board shape (e.g. iS144) with the same sail (e.g. OverD 9m2) in different weight classes affect how early the board will reach planning?:confused:

E.g. does a iS144 WC plan a 2-3 knots earlier than the same iS144 Wood?

I don't think WC would make the same board plane 2-3knots earlier. Take the Formula 162 as an example. This board was wood construction, and good plane in 6 knots with a >11m2 rig. You take the latest HWR or LWR formula boards, WC, and they are still planing in as low as 6 knots, but not lower. At some point the windspeed is simply too slow to allow planing.

ChrisN
23rd April 2010, 09:35 PM
Abs. agree! Yet, as you recall in MarkH iS144<>150 comparison, he mentioned that the iS144's ideal wind for a 10m2 starts from 12 knots and above, while the iS150 ideal wind for the same sail starts from 9/10 knots.

If I can get the iS144 WC to start from 9/10 knots then the debate is over - for the same shape and sail, the WC will start planning a bit earlier.

Can't understand why the TEAM is not contributing here. They are stating that WC is "accelerating faster in light winds" both in their website and product/technology pages. Therefore,the iS144 WC should plan earlier than it's Wood cousin! Our question is how much (given same sailor, sail & conditions)?

Knowing that makes a heck of a difference!

Ken
23rd April 2010, 09:53 PM
Chris,

Just a guess from 26 years of windsurfing - .65 kg of weight difference between the WC and W boards will not make a noticeable difference in the planing threshold for the 144, especially for someone at your weight. I used the word "noticeable" since there probably is a very, very, very small difference, just not one that could be measured.

I still think the 150 is your best bet for your under 15 knots wind range. As for sail size, I can only speak to my experience with my largest sails - Maui Sails TR 9.2 and 11.0. There is a very noticeable difference in power and early planing between the two, especially between 8 -12 knots on my formula board. I weigh 78kg (170lbs).

agrelon
23rd April 2010, 10:29 PM
Abs. agree! Yet, as you recall in MarkH iS144<>150 comparison, he mentioned that the iS144's ideal wind for a 10m2 starts from 12 knots and above, while the iS150 ideal wind for the same sail starts from 9/10 knots.

If I can get the iS144 WC to start from 9/10 knots then the debate is over - for the same shape and sail, the WC will start planning a bit earlier.

Can't understand why the TEAM is not contributing here. They are stating that WC is "accelerating faster in light winds" both in their website and product/technology pages. Therefore,the iS144 WC should plan earlier than it's Wood cousin! Our question is how much (given same sailor, sail & conditions)?

Knowing that makes a heck of a difference!

Especially seeing the price tag of WC boards.... those suckers don't come cheap.

PG
24th April 2010, 02:16 PM
My guess that a realistic difference in early planing between WC and W would be half a knot, something like that.

ChrisN
24th April 2010, 05:35 PM
Ken, you mentioned "...TR 9.2 and 11.0. There is a very noticeable difference in power and early planing between the two, especially between 8 -12 knots ...".

Do you mean that the 11m2 is MUCH better? Someone mentioned that there is NO niticable difference between a 10m2 and a 11 m2 (e.g. Overdrive). Yet, it seems that you would go for the 11m2 for 8-12 knts winds - right?

ChrisN
24th April 2010, 06:05 PM
PG, from what you are saying we would then have to pay 200€/300$ extra for an iS144 WC (on top of the 1.660€ / 2200$ for the iS144 Wood), to plan 0,5 knot earlier??

Both in the Forum and website, SB folks are filling us with a lot of marketing about the "premium" WC construction. For example, in a thread less than a Y ago, IAN FOX mentioned: "The Futuras (and iSonics) can definitely be made lighter in Wood+Carbon tech, which offers an advantage in earlier planing in lighter winds and on flatter water."

I would NOT mind paying the difference if someone from SB could tell us what were their test results? I just brought up the example of iS144 WC<>Wood with a 10m2 - same sailor + location - would it be planning 2-3 knots earlier then it does make a difference...

BelSkorpio
24th April 2010, 07:16 PM
Quite rightly questions, ChrisN.

At your weight, I think I know the answer.

But I leave it up to the SB staff for the official answer :)

BelSkorpio
24th April 2010, 07:24 PM
I just love these discussions about early planing in light wind conditions :)

A long time I thought that with my weight (86kg) I always was going to be frustratingly standing on the beach looking at the "light weight" riders how they were planing and me not.

Then there came formula boards ! Thank God. :)

ChrisN
26th April 2010, 04:12 AM
BelScorpio, I am sure Formula came to us as divine intervention, yet I am just still striving to have a bit of the slalom feeling in the 8-15 knots range. Therefore, many like MarkH and others clearly recommended the iS150 which will surely plan earlier that the iS144 and everyone agreed! Sounds to me that below 8 knots is Formula land. I think that discussion was completed! Noone recommended the Futura 155 (with 161 ltrs volume) in Wooud Carbon. As PG argued Weight is secondary to Width. Given the Formula arguments, WIDTH RULES, thus the WOOD iS150's ~94 cm will definitely plan quicker than WC iS144 and the WC Futura 155's (both 85 cm)!

In summary, and according to the discussion so far, it makes NO SENSE to buy a large volume Wood Carbon board at all (unless it is a Wave/Freestyle board). The WOOD version will be max. 0,5 knots slower, which for the skillset of most of us it's imperceptible!

In low winds you are not interested in fast response - rather you are planning based on large fins, sails and wide boards. As the Team has not intercepted I will transfer the question of the WC <> Wood in >120L boards in another thread...

ChrisN
26th April 2010, 04:17 AM
Chris,

Just a guess from 26 years of windsurfing - .65 kg of weight difference between the WC and W boards will not make a noticeable difference in the planing threshold for the 144, especially for someone at your weight. I used the word "noticeable" since there probably is a very, very, very small difference, just not one that could be measured.

I still think the 150 is your best bet for your under 15 knots wind range. As for sail size, I can only speak to my experience with my largest sails - Maui Sails TR 9.2 and 11.0. There is a very noticeable difference in power and early planing between the two, especially between 8 -12 knots on my formula board. I weigh 78kg (170lbs).

Ken thanks for your recommendations on the iS150. About the sails, would you then recommend to go for a 11 m2 (e.g. Severne OverDrive) rather than a 10m2?

BelSkorpio
26th April 2010, 07:05 PM
Hi ChrisN,

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to push you to Formula.
I also think that your best bet is the IS150, especially if you want to obtain a more slalom feeling.
And I also think that you deserve a correct answer of SB on the question about the difference between W and WC. My insinuation about knowing the answer referred exactly to this topic. I see that you opened a new thread for this. Very clever. I'm very curious about the answer. Let's hope SB gives an honest answer, which is often in contradiction with the commercial answer ;)

ChrisN
26th April 2010, 11:14 PM
Apologies, if my answer deemed negative; Rather, I visualized you standing there by the beach in no wind, watching the feather-weight young-guns riding away, then suddenly overtaking them planning on a Formula board:D

Given the testimony, iS150 is "nearly" a Formula, with a thinner tail and longer outline, so I'll be coming as close to a Formula - like it or not! It's gonna be tough to gybe, yet planning should be as close to them doors anyway :cool:


PS: Read the other thread :rolleyes:

Ken
26th April 2010, 11:19 PM
Chris, my TR 11.0 will plane at least 2 knots earlier than my 9.2. If I go out in 5-12 knot winds (typical summer winds in Dallas, Texas), I will be planing 80% of the time. If I use my 9.2, planing would be cut to probably 40% of the time.

I have a sailing buddy that weighs about 25 pounds more than me and we are pretty evenly matched speed wise with him on his TR 10.0 and me on my 9.2. However, I can still pump on plane quicker than him. The point being, if you weigh a lot, you need the largest sail the board can manage with good balance for light winds. In your case, the 11.0 will give you a little edge over a 10.0 for early planing. You should also be able to handle an 11.0 up to about 16-18 knots with a little practice.

I am also talking formula race sails that have a much greater range on the top end than freeride sails, especially if you have an adjustable outhaul.

I have recorded all of my outings on a GPS for the last 4.5 years. Here is one from last summer:

Date: 4-July
Top Speed knots: 25.5
Average speed knots: 10
Distance sailed: 12 miles
Time sailed: 70 minutes
Winds speed knots: 4-16
Sail used: TR 11.0
Board: Formula 160

mark h
26th April 2010, 11:24 PM
PG, from what you are saying we would then have to pay 200€/300$ extra for an iS144 WC (on top of the 1.660€ / 2200$ for the iS144 Wood), to plan 0,5 knot earlier??

Both in the Forum and website, SB folks are filling us with a lot of marketing about the "premium" WC construction. For example, in a thread less than a Y ago, IAN FOX mentioned: "The Futuras (and iSonics) can definitely be made lighter in Wood+Carbon tech, which offers an advantage in earlier planing in lighter winds and on flatter water."

I would NOT mind paying the difference if someone from SB could tell us what were their test results? I just brought up the example of iS144 WC<>Wood with a 10m2 - same sailor + location - would it be planning 2-3 knots earlier then it does make a difference...


Hi Chris

I guess putting numbers/percentages is difficult to commit to as theres so many variables. Here's my take on WC vs Wood, and whom its for/not for. But bear in mind I could be way off:)

Who is WC NOT for:
Begginers, intermediate or regular sailors, there is probably no benefit in having WC over wood. The Wood version is only be slightly heavier and has a better range of use IE ability to absorb chop and soften ride, which 90% of the time will make regular sailors faster and potentially assist early planing. Early planing and top speed will not be increased for this group of riders by using CW models over Wood models.

Who is CW for:
Pro, expert riders looking to squeeze every bit of performance out of their kit. Serious racers will be after lots of 1% increases of performance out of their sail, fin, board etc. Added together, lots of 1% can make a huge difference around the race course. This group of riders want as much feedback from their equipment as possible, CW will relay this info back to the rider quicker than Wood (think how 100% carbon mast feels c/w 75% mast). This group of riders will be able to take advantage of the CW and they will get an improvement in early planing and top speed for sure.

I used to have 2005 carbon F2 slalom and speed board's, they felt very lively compaired to SB wood, but I personally did not travel faster with F2 carbon than I do on SB wood.

My first formula board was the old Free Formula 168 in Dynema. I changed this for the Wood version, this felt like it was faster, lighter, more fun and planed earlier. But in reality, the differences were very marginal.

If you'v got the spare cash, then go with CW as it will feel stiffer, lighter and give you more feedback. But unless your pro/expert level or weekend racing (and feel like you must have the best), your early planing and top speed will not increase. Plus, if the water state worsens, CW will not absorb the chop, making it physically harder to sail all day.

Definetly think that iS150 is the board for you, especially if you do not want Formula.

Ken
26th April 2010, 11:59 PM
Chris,

Mark hit it on the head - good take on the WC or W issue.

My guess is that starboard may not want to address the WC vs W performance differences since it is pretty marginal for the majority of the consumers. My guess is that 80% of the windsurfers out there would find the wood model more comfortable to sail without sacrificing performance.

I have an '08 iS 111 (only the W version available in '08) and the ride can be pretty harsh in choppy water. If I wanted to update to the 2010 model, I would not choose the WC board because I would not want the ride to be any rougher than I am currently experiencing. For us mortals, comfort, control and a smooth ride means faster sailing.

However, there are a lot of sailors that want to have what the top sailors would choose, even if they have to give up some comfort and control, thus the WC model is available for the masses.

My comments are just that, and don't represent what Starboard may say or think about the issue. I love their products, but also know my limitations and what works best for me.

ChrisN
27th April 2010, 12:51 AM
Mark, appreciate your detailed recommendation. I agree that for most people including myself, Wood would be mostly sufficient, while WC would be a rougher ride as conditions pick up. Yet, as it is also disputed in the Wave /Freestyle community, the light-wind slalom audience also aspires towards the light-weight Kevlar/Carbon constructions.

Given SB's latest Formulas for light-wind are in WoodCarbon, most manufacturers seem to converge of the positive effects of that construction for light-wind and early planning (see the new thread (http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8705)I started on this issue).

So, while Futura 155 can be bought in WC, the highly recommended iS150 is NOT! Notwithstanding, I think I'll go for it!

ChrisN
27th April 2010, 12:54 AM
Chris, my TR 11.0 will plane at least 2 knots earlier than my 9.2. If I go out in 5-12 knot winds (typical summer winds in Dallas, Texas), I will be planing 80% of the time. If I use my 9.2, planing would be cut to probably 40% of the time.

I have a sailing buddy that weighs about 25 pounds more than me and we are pretty evenly matched speed wise with him on his TR 10.0 and me on my 9.2. However, I can still pump on plane quicker than him. The point being, if you weigh a lot, you need the largest sail the board can manage with good balance for light winds. In your case, the 11.0 will give you a little edge over a 10.0 for early planing. You should also be able to handle an 11.0 up to about 16-18 knots with a little practice.

I am also talking formula race sails that have a much greater range on the top end than freeride sails, especially if you have an adjustable outhaul.
....

Ken thanks for your recommendations for going for the largest sail for the iS150! I'll certainly go for the 11 m2 - most probably the Severne Overdrive 11m2...

Best Regards
ChrisN

ZedZdeD
27th April 2010, 02:31 AM
For light wind, you should consider a Phantom Race 320 instead of iSonic or Futura. Since I have one, I sail 10 times more often, always with the excellent sensations of a regatta board, and my iSonic and Futura, useless when wind is not strong or stable enough, whatever their volume, stay most often in the trailer.

ChrisN
27th April 2010, 06:28 AM
....My guess is that starboard may not want to address the WC vs W performance differences since it is pretty marginal for the majority of the consumers. My guess is that 80% of the windsurfers out there would find the wood model more comfortable to sail without sacrificing performance.
...

Ken, I really appreciate your and Mark's point of view on why SB is NOT providing an answer to our simple question. While confort and durability are important consumer values for windsurfing products, we also need honest communications about our higly valued "toys" - just as you folks are about the reasoning behind our choices or options of technology.

Nevertheless, we should not forget what we were discussing. Does WoodCarbon affect at all whether a board will plan earlier (with all the other variables kept constant)? Marketing from all vendors make such statements, while in reality as you mentioned a couple of times, there are no discernible deltas; as you and Belscorpio highlighted - Wood handles chop and gusty winds more smoothly, thus faster for 90% of us in >15 knts.

Below 10 knots you might not need the same smoothness, rather a quicker response and release would be more appreciated as pumping would lead to faster release (in theory!).

If there is some proof on earliest planning per platform (i.e. Serenity/SUPs, Raceboards, Formula, Freeride, Free race/Slalom), it was reported on by the German SURF magazin some time ago. Formula planned from 7 knots, Freeride from 8/9 and Slalom from 9/10 knots (these were averages across a range of testers).
Our questions thus still stands and has been transfered to a new thread. What is the earliest planning platform - iS144 WC or W? :confused:

ZedZdeD
28th April 2010, 03:15 AM
planning, planning, planning at all costs,
my kingdom for planning one knot earlier,
even if it means ending up with ridiculous gear, excessive in all its characteristics and still not planning

this sad deviation has almost completely destroyed this sport
no, you dont absolutely need planning to have fun on a windsurf
you just need to use gear which fits the conditions
in light to medium, compact raceboards provide by far the best sensations, and the largest versatility

just have a look :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkNTmWXGxVs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0IGYF6HA00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tD687tc7po

ChrisN
28th April 2010, 07:33 PM
ZedZdeD, I need to provide you an honest anwer. You posted some really beautifull movies, reminding me of my early days of "easy cruising". I have also sailed longboards and raceboards in the past, yet I didn't find them as fun as shorter boards.

So, while it sounds hillarious with all the focus on "early planning", don't forget that 90% of the worlds windsurfers are on smaller boards (with a reason).

So, let's try to be less polemic and a bit more objective about Raceboards (love your 320 though!). The German SURF magazine, compared in Aug'09 a number of boards in Lake Garda across a number of testers averaging 80 kgs utilizing specialized light-wind equipement. See the boards they tested and some of their results in the Tables attached below...

I very much agree with SURF's verdict on the Raceboards [my translation]:
"The classic raceboard, 3.80 meters long, with an elegant Rail shape as a shipping container... can glide from as little as 4 knots; it runs extremely well up- & downwind and it may plan early in gusts with a folded dagger.
Still, it always seems huge, one simply feels that it was neither developed as a high volume board nor as a pure glider. While for a Raceboard-Cupper it's a must, as an Allround board on the lake with occasional gusts, an alternative. Those who come from shorter planning boards, will be disappointed by the comparatively slow-acting ride & driving experience."
That last sentence reflects my sentiment too. Consequently, I think that your statement about short boards destroying the market is a bit overblown! People like FUN, and fun is heavily related into speed from which some experience an adrenaline kick and freedom. Cruising is "cool", but planning is simply more fun. :cool:

I have experienced that SUPs better than Raceoards helps us back into the family-oriented, cruising fun of our Longboards, yet as you have read in the earlier posts they are NOT planning machines, thus not really FUN (given their "wave" oriented scoop-rocker line).

If I was 20 years younger, I would certainly go for Kite-boarding, as these folks are "planning" from very low windspeeds with massive kites at 100 ft up. Given an old Knee injury though, I do prefer Windsurfing as it is MUCH SAFER!

So the question on iS144 Construction and Planning is still unanswered! Read my other thread about the latest on Weight+Construction<>Performance results from SURF (or read the article in German in this PDF link (http://www.dk-content.de/surf/pdf-archiv/tests//bauweisenvergleich-0709.pdf))

Ken
29th April 2010, 12:27 AM
Zed,

By your logic, we should all be happy with snow ski resorts that only offer green runs. For many of us, human nature drives us to challenge ourselves to try the blue and black runs, since we tend to get bored on the green runs after mastering them.

In windsurfing, most of us want to push to the next level - higher winds, bigger waves, faster speeds, fancier tricks, etc. Not surprisingly, like skiing, we don't go back to the green runs unless that is all the mountain has to offer. If you are an expert skier, will you go to a mountain that only offers green runs? Possibly, if it is the only one close to you, or if you are into freestyle and are beginning to develop your skills, but most of us will not make that choice.

Unlike skiing, windsurfers have to wait for a blue or black day, or even a green day if we are beginners. Could we choose to go out on a green day? Sure, but if I do, it will be on my formula gear so I can plane in 8 knots rather than cruse around on my '85 Mistral Superlight.

It's just a matter of choice and many of us prefer speed over light wind cruising or an SUP.

ZedZdeD
29th April 2010, 05:13 AM
I have nothing against speed, I have iSonic, Futura, Kode, everything and more,

it's just that I don't have the chance to live in a place where conditions are often appropriate for this gear,

and I have wasted enough years staying on the beach with my superbly useless PWA high end gear, or spending afternoons waiting for three times ten seconds of planning

at a certain stage, I just stopped that, I wanted to sail, not just discuss fins lenghts for hours on the ground

I am happy to use my short boards when conditions are appropriate, but now I have something which I can sail every week end, always with great sensations, while most others are lined up on the ground, waiting for the afternoon's burst that they should not miss

meanwhile, as in the past there were on my lake hundreds of windsurfers, from beginners to advanced, all sailing together, now when I am not the last of Mohicans there are in the best case 5 to 10 guys getting bored as they wait for planning, and who eventually stop practising this sport as my closest friends did, due to frustrations resulting from the way they practise it

one of them ended up wishing to sail only with waveboard and 4.5. Fine, but he sailed three times a year, rapidly lost the necessary skills due to lack of training, and eventually stopped

sick evolution

ChrisN
29th April 2010, 03:04 PM
Zed, I think that if people LOVE the water and the wind, rather than the pure exhilaration of speed, then they will find ways out there! Your friends are most probably mountain biking currently, which makes them adrenalin junckies :D

I've also had the same issue as yuour friends though, yet given my love of the sea, I found SUP's to be an excellent entry into that gorgeous element. Now, as soon as wind pick up I throw on the SUP a sail and off we go in playfull manner.

Yet, there is something luring about planning. Weightlessness - a single word describes what one experiences in entering planning. When the pressure decreases in the sail, the board seems to be only slightly sticking to the toes, the body hangs freely in the harness, and you FLY! Now that is FUN just as Ken expounded...

Zed, we don't disagree with your grievances, yet one other part of the gear-tuning focus is to gain access to that weightlessness and satisfy more needs than just being on the water...

Be :cool:

BelSkorpio
29th April 2010, 07:01 PM
ChrisN,

I've heard several years ago the following statement:

"For every 1 kg a board weighs less, a rider can weigh 10 kg more to obtain the same plan(n)ing capabilities."

I must admit that I cannot 100% explain it scientifically, nor do I know if this statement is right in the first place.

If I still remember it well, it got something to do with the fact that you can't just add the full weight of the rider with the weight of the board to obtain a total weight of "mass" on wich you could apply the 2nd law of Newton (F=m*a) to calculate the acceleration an object gets when submitted to a constant force.

I think they explained it in a way that your body weight partly get's lifted up by the sail, reducing the actual body weight that can be added to the weight of the board. This is probably a little bit less true when you 're not in planing condition yet, because then your body weight is not really "suspended" to the sail yet that much.

I don't know if I make sense, but I thought I'd mention this as well, since we are dealing with this topic more and more theoretically :)

Any reactions are welcome.

ChrisN
29th April 2010, 11:37 PM
Belscorpio, I have posted an answer where I quoted your response - see on the other thread (http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8705&page=2)...

Ken
29th April 2010, 11:53 PM
Bel,

I believe your point is valid and even when not planing, pumping the sail will not only add force and lift into the sail, but with the corresponding leg action, the board will become unweighted for brief moments. In addition, the leg action will be pumping the fin for additional lift. All of this works considerably better with a light, stiff board and you get on plane quicker and easier than an identical board with greater weight and less rigidity.

The only question is how much of a difference in weight and rigidity is needed to make a noticeable difference in the planing threshold?

This is ChrisN's question......................

agrelon
2nd May 2010, 11:30 AM
ChrisN,

Is there a particular reason why you don't want to get a formula board?

When I settle down somewhere near a windsurfing spot, formula kit is on my list of things to get to really max out my windrange/sailing time.

This video really depicts the performance you can get on these boards with 6 knots up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjkZfIOlh18

So zen and fast despite the light wind.

agrelon
2nd May 2010, 11:35 AM
The video also shows how much better Formula equipment performs in light wind than freeride kit, as you'll see the other windsurfer on the water near planing.

ChrisN
3rd May 2010, 07:10 PM
Thanks for the great videos! I've tried to answer your question from another angle, on the other discussion we have - see thread (http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8705&page=2).

Yet, on your question on WHY NOT Formula, I feel that Formulas is not what I need. The area I would be sailing with such boards has often side- to offshore winds, so the wind as well as the chop picks up as one moves more into the open waters. There is therefore a lot of variation in wind-strength gusting from 5 to 15 knots on a low wind day (i.e. no white caps in sight close to shore). So, what I need is a Light Wind board that will be able to start planing in a wind range so far exclusively reserved for Formula windsurfing. Formula boards seem to be mainly designed to go upwind like a train and straight downwind, while reaching is not their strength, while jibing is less fun for more recreational sailors.

Thus, I focused on the largest Slalom boards, like Starboard's iSonic 144 or Fanatic Falcon 145, or RRD X-Fire 135L, or Taboo Manta 85 /135L, all of which were 85 cm wide slalom shapes. Now there was also the iSonic 150L an 93,5cm design which was highly recommended (yet only in WOOD), untill you brought into our attention a board from JP specifically designed for the specs I highlighted above - the JP Super Light Wind (http://www.jp-australia.com/2010/index.php?id=574)90 cm wide, longer than the iSonic (by 10 cm) and with more volume (i.e. 154L).

So, what does SB thinks about that? Will the iSonic 150 Wood still plan AS EARLY as JP's SLW in Carbon/Gold editions?

agrelon
4th May 2010, 12:46 PM
Interesting that you mention the RRD X-Fire 135. I believe on their website they said something along the lines of designing a board that could plane in 7knots. I like how they really differentiate each board in the same series, as obviously their uses will vary. RRD seem to be doing quite well in races with Finian M, up there with JP (Antoine and Micah) and the SB team riders.

Again, I wish I had the means to test the different boards, it would be really interesting to see if there is a correlation between most convincing marketing and performance on the water.

ChrisN
4th May 2010, 03:19 PM
Agrelon, I do have the RRD X-Fire 120L already which is a great board! Finian has recommended the following:
"The RRD x-Fire 120 may start at 8 knots, but performs best in 12 - 17 knots of wind with any sea condition. Sails used; 9.5, 8.6, 7.8m and 48, 46, 42 cm fins";

The same type of recommendations can be made for RRD X-fire 135L (it is comparable to iS133) - it will start planning with large sails /10m2 from around 10 knots; there is a big gap between 7 to 10! If I was Finian then I could probably sail from 8 knots; there are plenty of magazine tests of RRD's 120 and 112 - all very positive, very close to the iSonics yet better jibers.

On marketing, unless you lie, it is proven that companies that "believe" in the superiority of their product have nothing against objective tests and showing off their comparative performance (this is from Kottler). Marketing is then a part of the "pride" of delivering such a great product - think about Apple!

The response from SB on our LOOONG conversation has been TOTALLY lacking - this less than lukewarm response is probably an indication that they don't really believe that their top-quality product is that different from their mid-range ones. They are certainly not marketing their products properly - if you see the other websites like JP/ Taboo/ Fanatic, you feel that there is a clustering effect at SB - no distinction is made betwen various boards or even technologies within a range like iSonic (i.e. I need to Google to find information on iS150)!

There are places in the world where you can test such boards - check OTC...

agrelon
8th May 2010, 10:50 AM
http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8703

Thierry on this thread says some really good stuff about Formula boards for lightwind freeriding. Makes me want to get one...

BelSkorpio
9th May 2010, 05:33 AM
Yes, I think that ThierryP is "spot on" when he says:

"dans le vent léger, je navigue sans aucune recherche de performance, uniquement pour le plaisir de la glisse"

I couldn't agree more. That's exactly how I think. I dont need to be the fastest in very light winds. All I care about is planing and stay into it, no matter wich courses, also the ones sharp to the wind. That's also efficiency AND fun !

I will get my performance kicks above 15 knots with much smaller boards.

BelSkorpio
10th May 2010, 01:27 AM
I'm just back from my first session of the year.
It were light wind conditions.
When I arrived there was about 9 knots of wind going to 10. Northern wind, which is probably the most stable with us.
So I chose my F161/ 9.5m2. Perfect combination.
I also saw a lot of guys planing on big slalom equipment, some better then others.
When it got to 11 knots, I've tried my 125L freeride board (similar to the futura 122) with the same 9.5 sail.
From 11 knots it plans as quickly as the F161, but MUCH harder to point.
This is what I wanted to know and share with you. :)

Hang loose and have fun !

Greeky
11th May 2010, 05:25 AM
Guys face the facts - low wind performance will only be aquired with a freestyle board, a 5m2 sails and a jetbike.

ChrisN
11th May 2010, 06:01 PM
Guys face the facts - low wind performance will only be aquired with a freestyle board, a 5m2 sails and a jetbike.


Agree fully if we are supposed to be cool entertainers like the freestylers in Podendorff - check the cool image of the Tow-in Windsurfing competition.

http://www.pwaworldtour.com/index.php?eID=tx_cms_showpic&file=uploads%2Fpics%2FA10_ls_Who_needs_wind...Tonk y_mid_forward.jpg&width=800m&height=500&bodyTag=%3Cbody%20style%3D%22background%3A%2300000 0%3Bpadding%3A0%3Bmargin%3A0%3B%3E&wrap=%3Ca%20href%3D%22javascript%3Aclose%28%29%3B% 22%3E%20%7C%20%3C%2Fa%3E&md5=281fc65d07de86ccd34f6ef03de10022

Hey, Greeky, we have been so far discussing windsurfing in the 8-15 knots wind range. Any ideas?

ChrisN
13th May 2010, 12:43 AM
I'm just back from my first session of the year.
It were light wind conditions.
When I arrived there was about 9 knots of wind going to 10. Northern wind, which is probably the most stable with us.
So I chose my F161/ 9.5m2. Perfect combination.
I also saw a lot of guys planing on big slalom equipment, some better then others.
When it got to 11 knots, I've tried my 125L freeride board (similar to the futura 122) with the same 9.5 sail.
From 11 knots it plans as quickly as the F161, but MUCH harder to point.
This is what I wanted to know and share with you. :)

Hang loose and have fun !

Bel, that was a great summary! One thing you are missing now is to try the 2 formula boards - the "old" Wood one and the "newly" designed Wood Carbon ones. As you recall, I also read that Formulas have a 2 Year design break, so the new SB formulas will stay on till 2012.

From our great exchange here, Ken's recomendations and Agrelon's Utube video recommendations, I went on and checked some more Formula video, and I have to admit that it is a pretty amazing stuff to see folks planning from 5-6 knots. Jibiing seems tough but tacking's a breeze! So, I think you folks made me rethink :rolleyes:

On the boards, while FUTURA is totaly out, we did compared the iSonic 150 with the JP SLW 90 and a modern Formula (like SBs HWR/ JP Formula 100) - it was evident that:

Length: the JP SLW90 is 10 cms longer than both Formula and ISonic (which should make it easier to handle while slogging)!
Width: the JP is 10 cm narrower than SBs Formula HWR, and also narrower than the iSonic 150, which is 93.5 cm (while JP is 90 cms)!
OFO: The BIG difference between JP and ISonic lies in their One Foot Off (OFO); JP's OFO is 71 cm wide while iSonic's 65 and the HWR Formula is 82 cm. ;)
WEIGHT: Both SB and JP offer Carbon Formula versions (yet JP SLW can be bought in a GOLD version that will be nearly 1 KG less than SBs HWR Formula and 1,8 KGs less than JP's own Formula 100).
STIFFNESS: Both SB's and JP's Formulas are Carbon, while JP's SLW is offered in a Gold version which is the stiffest. The iSonic is out as it is Wood.
FINS: Formulas can carry the longest fins - seen one with an 85 cm fin, so it's unbeatable; JP's SLW will carry up to 64 cms fins and similarly with the iSoninc150.


So, U R all right that Formula will be the one to plan the earliest and that's what I should go for. That means that Formulas can carry longer fins (even longer than 70 cms) and sails (up to 12,5 m2). In summary, to ALL that have been reading the thread - I'll go for a FORMULA board! :cool:

SB's amazing responsive & informative approach has certainly won them a new customer! :mad: But maybe, just as they don't care about customers, I should also make them bid - let's see now who would make me the best offer - JP/ SB / Gaastra :D

DO you have any recommendations on the best Formula boards?

Thanks guys for all the good advice :)

ChrisN
13th May 2010, 03:50 AM
On the types of boards, threshold of planning and wind, check out the following graph made by James Douglas (see his blog (http://jimbodouglass.blogspot.com/2009/09/wind-thresholds-and-kitestration.html)). Hope he doesn't mind the copy+paste...

It shows the approximate wind needed to reach planning for longboard (LB) windsurfing, formula (F) windsurfing, bump & jump (B&J) windsurfing, and kiteboarding. Windsurfing on a big freeride board would be something intermediate between the curve for formula windsurfing and B&J windsurfing.

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc11/d0uglass/thresholds.jpg

I was surprised to read that kitesurfers are planning later and cannot handle lulls as well as Formula windsurfing...

Deja Vu
13th May 2010, 07:23 AM
I keep finding myself agreeing with Ken. I have an Is 150 and an Is 131 (WC). If you want to carry a large sail in comfort then the 150 is the ticket. The 150 is very fast with the right sail and flies up and down wind. It gybes well with small sails (8.5 sq, m.), but it is much more difficult to come out on a plane with a 9.5 or bigger. The 131 is easier to gybe, but not so comfortable with a 9.5 or bigger, IMO. When it comes to gybing the older free formulas were amazing and planned early, but can't compete head to head with the big Isonics over distance.

BelSkorpio
15th May 2010, 02:02 AM
ChrisN,

That graph is amazing. It says more than a thousand words.

Where do you keep on finding those great didactic materials. :)

It's funny that you bring up the thing about kitesurfing and thinking that they plane earlier than us on a Formula. No way.

I've already brought this up in another thread a couple of months ago:
http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7982&highlight=kitesurf

The thing about the carbon stiffness & early planing will never get solved here, I think.

Have you already read the opinion of Duracel in your parallel thread ? He comes back on the board weight being a very important factor, where I agree as well.

agrelon
15th May 2010, 10:45 AM
Yeh. I think the quest for a numerical answer about planing thresholds is futile at this point. I guess the important point is that WC "feels" faster to plane than Wood. I guess this is argument enough as a lot of things come down to "feeling" in windsurfing. "That fin felt a bit small", "my sail felt a big backhanded", etc. As long as the difference can be felt, and seeing as the fun/performance you have on the water is also closely linked to how good your board/sail/fin combo feel, then I think WC is worth the extra 200$ in lightwind boards.

If you're going to be spending near 2000 US for a lightwind board (where WC is more beneficial), I don't see why paying an additional 10-15% would be a huge question.... if you're already breaking the bank, might as well get the best out there for a little extra.

ChrisN
23rd May 2010, 07:05 PM
I keep finding myself agreeing with Ken. I have an Is 150 and an Is 131 (WC). If you want to carry a large sail in comfort then the 150 is the ticket. The 150 is very fast with the right sail and flies up and down wind. It gybes well with small sails (8.5 sq, m.), but it is much more difficult to come out on a plane with a 9.5 or bigger. The 131 is easier to gybe, but not so comfortable with a 9.5 or bigger, IMO. When it comes to gybing the older free formulas were amazing and planned early, but can't compete head to head with the big Isonics over distance.

Deja Vu, thanks for sharing your experiences. As we have been discussing in this thread and our other thread (http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8705&page=4), it seems that Formula Boards given their attributes are planning earlier and handle light-wind conditions better than the big slalom boards.
Ken, Bel, MarkH and many others confirmed that these boards are unbeatable in sub 10 knots conditions (i.e. 7-16 knots) for guys of my weight class (90kg). I'll need large,expensive rigs to go along, but it seems that such a board is the solution to my original querry (and there is a healthy used market of such equipment).

However, I was puzzled by your statement that "...[Formulas] can't compete head-to head with the big Isonics over distance." What do you mean? Is the Isonic 150 with let's say a 11 m2 sail in 9 knots faster than a Formula? OR, do you mean that it just gybes better?

As you have had both board types, can you please share your experiences about their differences?

As you also recall, the discussion in this and the other thread also explored the option of using the new generation Light Wind Boards like JP's SLW90 (http://www.rikswindsurfing.com/live/jp-super-light-wind-gold-edition-2011-2379-0.html)that resemble the largest iSonic (yet being a bit longer and broader One-Foot Off, hence easier to plan). There is a SURF preview that I mentioned before, and an upcoming test in July. It seems that I'll wait for another month.

Jacco
24th May 2010, 03:58 AM
Hi Chris, maybe you should compare some GPS results at http://www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx.

It was usefull to me when i was curious about hte right setup of my Isonic 145. I can also sent you a file with a list of results of the 150, 140 and 133. Of course its mostly about topend speed but you can learn about the different setups and boardresults....

grtz

Deja Vu
24th May 2010, 11:04 PM
I was referring to the older FREE formulas, which were detuned formula boards built around 2004 to 2007 (?) which were (are) a pleasure to gybe compared to the big Isonics like the 150. The Is 131 (133) and 150 are simply amazing in their respective wind ranges for overall speed, pointing and their ability to tame lulls.

ChrisN
25th May 2010, 10:28 AM
Hi Chris, maybe you should compare some GPS results at http://www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx.

It was usefull to me when i was curious about hte right setup of my Isonic 145. I can also sent you a file with a list of results of the 150, 140 and 133. Of course its mostly about topend speed but you can learn about the different setups and boardresults....

grtz

As I don't have Gold Access yet, can you please share the results for dat for the Isonic 150. Somebody also mentioned that there are results for the new JP Super Light Wind 90, 154L. If you find these can you please share?

Thanks in advance...

Jacco
26th May 2010, 01:27 AM
Hi Chris, sent me an email to j.t.bergsma@pmasport.nl, i'll reply with the file as attachment...grtz

Deja Vu
27th May 2010, 01:13 AM
BTW, I also have the new JP Formula and I think I prefer the IS 150 for light wind blasting!

mark h
27th May 2010, 03:30 AM
Hi Deja Vu

Would be good if you could make a picture album in your profile and upload a few pictures of the iS150 and JP Formula side by side. iS150 pics are thin on the ground, and along with SB's published dimensions, real life pictures help to give potential iS150 buyers a real story of its intensions:)

If found a decent 2009 iS150 picture which I'll upload into my picture album tonight. I wished I had taken pictures of the 2008 iS150 I borrowed from my local windsurf shop before giving it back.

mark h
27th May 2010, 03:43 AM
Just uploaded a 2009 iS150, 2010 iS131/121 pics into my picture album:)

ChrisN
27th May 2010, 12:24 PM
BTW, I also have the new JP Formula and I think I prefer the IS 150 for light wind blasting!

Deja Vu, I really need to understand what you mean with this statement. Nearly everyone in the thread were highlighting that Formula boards are the "earliest planning" ones and most fun to ride in 7-16 knots. Per definition the JP Formula 168 with a wider OFO, should be able to carry larger fins + sails, plan faster, point higher, etc, thus more "easy" in light winds than the iS150.

What you then wrote about the IS150 on light wind blasting may contradict most other opinions, unless I have misunderstood what you meant by "light wind blasting"! Hence, what do you mean??

On the pictures of the IS150, there were some great pictures from an informal test conducted in a french forum (http://www.windsurfing33.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24710&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15).

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/908/3quartdw4.jpg

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/6549/3quartarrireqc0.jpg

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/7587/arrireyr1.jpg

Deja Vu
27th May 2010, 08:48 PM
I sail in an area with gusty winds (who doesn't?). The JP formula is a nice board and it will carry the biggest sails and fins; however, in gusty conditions you often have next to nothing in wind and then gusts of 9, 10 or 11 knots which is enough to get up and going on a 9.5 or 10,5 sq. m. sail with a smaller board. I'd rather be on the Is 150 with a 10.5 than on the JP with a 12.0. In a steady sea breeze the JP (formula boards) may be on a plane more consistently since they'll go through the lulls better with their huge fins and sails, but it's more work. So in a steady sea breeze the formula is a better choice, but in light gusty conditions I have more fun on smaller light wind equipment that is highly efficient. Personally, I think the Is 133 (131) may be the most efficient board I've yet sailed, but I prefer the Is 150 for 9.5 m. sails and bigger because it is easier to carry these sails with this board and it blasts in these conditions. If I could only have two boards I'd probably take the 150 for lighter gusty winds and the 101 for the higher gusty winds.

ChrisN
1st June 2010, 02:59 PM
Thanx for that explanation; Still I do have a lot of small questions.
Sounds that the JP formula is not as easy to slog with in very low winds. Yet, the iS150 is not that much longer than the JP Formula and should plan slower;
When a gust arrives the JP Formula should be up and planning faster.
Is iS150 more stable? What makes it easier to sail than the JP?

BelSkorpio
1st June 2010, 06:58 PM
Hi ChrisN,

All short boards slog terrible. Only long boards do this thing well. The shorter a board gets, the worse it will slog.

What makes a IS150 easier and more relaxed to surf, is pure its smaller width.
When with a formula, the wind picks up, you will feel immediately the pressure on your ankles. It's like the boards wants to lift up on the windward side. This is precisely the effect of a larger width with extremely outside positioned foot straps. It is also the reason why the formula wil plane faster. No pain, no gain. I personally like this feeling, though. It takes a while before you get used to it, but once you learn to sheet in when the board gets the lift (i.e. keep the formula as flat as possible) you will experience the real fun of formula sailing. It's different than slalom racing, but also fun !

I know that you are stil doubting between a big slalom or a formula board, but you need to ask yourself over and over again: Do you want maximum performance of planing on all courses -> go for the formula. Do you want maximum performance on speed/blasting power -> go for the big slalom.

mark h
1st June 2010, 11:26 PM
Hi Chris

Looking back at your original post and reading the 5k to 15k range that you need this to work in, a formula 10/11m is the only option for you. 7k/8k will comfortably get a FW going and it will keep going through 5k/6k holes.

Now if it was 8k to 15k, the iS150/10m would also do the job nicely as it will keep going through 7k holes, but it will not keep going through 5k/6k holes (unlike FW).

I understand were Deja Vu is coming from, sacrificing 2k or 3k on your wind minimum and iS150/10m will be easier/more fun than FW/11m/12m for most (unless your racing). But, having said that, in sub 10 knot winds, most waters are pretty calm.

Since your next boards is an RRD X-Fire 120L (nice board and similar to iS121), I'd be looking to open the gap as much as possible to really push the usable range of these boards. A FW will give you this bigge range, the iS150 is pretty much just "one size" bigger than your X-fire. FM uses 7m to 8.5m/9m on his X-fire 120 which covers a huge range.

Meric
1st June 2010, 11:29 PM
I think the JP90 was mentioned in this thread.
There are a few pictures from JP frontpage:
http://www.jp-australia.com/2010/index.php?id=1
And a first test by riks:
http://www.rikswindsurfing.com/news/2010/05/jp-slw-report/jp-slw-report.html
Very nice board!
I guess SB is going to come with a similar board!

ChrisN
2nd June 2010, 07:15 AM
I sail in an area with gusty winds (who doesn't?). The JP formula is a nice board and it will carry the biggest sails and fins; however, in gusty conditions you often have next to nothing in wind and then gusts of 9, 10 or 11 knots which is enough to get up and going on a 9.5 or 10,5 sq. m. sail with a smaller board. I'd rather be on the Is 150 with a 10.5 than on the JP with a 12.0. In a steady sea breeze the JP (formula boards) may be on a plane more consistently since they'll go through the lulls better with their huge fins and sails, but it's more work. So in a steady sea breeze the formula is a better choice, but in light gusty conditions I have more fun on smaller light wind equipment that is highly efficient. Personally, I think the Is 133 (131) may be the most efficient board I've yet sailed, but I prefer the Is 150 for 9.5 m. sails and bigger because it is easier to carry these sails with this board and it blasts in these conditions. If I could only have two boards I'd probably take the 150 for lighter gusty winds and the 101 for the higher gusty winds.

Deja Vu, thanks for these explanations! Sounds that when one want to have FUN in early winds, Formula becomes too "racy". As Bel & Mark wrote, you are willing to give up a bit of planing efficiency provided by a Formula board, yet have more fun in varying gusty conditions on the iS150.

What do you then think about the more "modern" designs in this lightwind Slalom/Freeride class, e.g.the JP Super Light Wind, L:237cm, W:90, V:154L. In comparison with the IS, JP is looking more like a rounded square-tailed formula with a wide OFO (JP: 70,3 cm, while iS150:65 cm and Formula HWR: 81, LWR: 78). Further, the JP is delivered in lightweight carbon-based constructions - the Pro: 8,6 Kg, and the Gold:~8 kgs. iS150 has 4L less volume and it's Wood version weights the same ~8,6kg (no WoodCarbon available!)...

Check out Meric's excellent reference to a dealer's initial Test & Movie (http://www.rikswindsurfing.com/news/2010/05/jp-slw-report/jp-slw-report.html)of the JP SLW board and the see the picts below; the german SURF will test provide a comparative test in July. I would wish there were similar overviews as the ones from Rik (with yours, Mark's and Bel's commentary) for SB's boards like iS150.

What do you think? Is this JP SLW similar to the iS150? OR, do you think that SB will come up with a new design for this light wind segment?

http://www.windsurfing44.com/matos/JP_Australia/2011/JP_Australia_2011_Super_Light_Wind_90_06.jpg http://www.windsurfing44.com/matos/JP_Australia/2011/JP_Australia_2011_Super_Light_Wind_90_07.jpg

mark h
2nd June 2010, 07:20 AM
Very nice review by Rik, wished all reviews were one like that. Rik has a great reputation over here in the UK, so I his review will be accurate.

Looking at the numbers/shapes, I still feel that the SLW will have a slight edge on early planning, and the iS150 will have a slight edge in top speed.
Things would very close is the SB was slightly longer/slightly wide tail but still had the very low nose. Possible mods for the 2011 model???

I made a reference to logged GPS speeds on the SLW, it must be noted that when Rik logged the GPS sessions, he was on a Neilpryde Helium 7.5, and Rik weighs 63kg. Plug in a full race sail (9m/10m) and it would be go faster. But I still think the iS150 will be fastest, just:)

I do think iS150 and JP SLW are the only two super light wind XXL slalom boards out their. As Rik states, XXL Freeride's do feel a bit boring in comparison and formula to technical for most. But, if you want formula purely for light winds, its not technical at all. Formula only gets technical/physical when the winds pick up or water state becomes harsh IE full on FW racing. Worth bearing that in mind:)

Both of these are serious light wind options. The SLW does seem pretty expensive at £1800 c/w £1275 for the iS150. I even so a close-out deal on a 2009 iS150 at £999. Not sure if 1 knot lower planing threshold is worth that much more???

Deja Vu
3rd June 2010, 09:20 PM
As mentioned, I presently own the JP Formula, Isonic 131 (WC) and the Isonic 150. If I could only own one I'd keep the Isonic 150! Its like a mini formula in some respects with its upwind and downwind ability and its fast and responsive (well, more so than a formula) on a reach and will carry big sails with ease. Tacking is easy, but gybing is a little harder than say the 131. From the video it looks to me that the JP is a slightly detuned slalom board while the 150 is a full on slalom which probably means the JP gybes easier, but gives up a slight amount of overall performance in other areas (but maybe not).

Deja Vu
3rd June 2010, 09:34 PM
I own a couple of JP boards (formula and the 114 slalom) and I like them, but the problem is I also own the Is 150 and Is 111 and those are the boards I want to be on, which means the others don't get used as often as they should - that's just my preference. There are just too may variables to recommend just one board and its very difficult to try before you buy - very frustrating.

ChrisN
12th August 2010, 06:12 AM
Dear forum members

Many team members and forum contributors have requested to get the comparative results from the latest SURF Magazine's test of Light wind /Early Planning blasters. It seems that SURF has been receiving a lot of requests on this issue and decided to conduct such a comparative investigation. I took some time off during holidays to properly translate this test into ENGLISH so we can finally close this and many other threads - see attachment...

Even prior to the arrival of this new generation of Light Wind Free-Racers (like JP SLW 90), there were ample discussions in these forums on "early planing", "comfort while slogging", "comfort while sailing" and hefty exchanges on the relevant equipment. Many of these parameters and attributes have been debated in-depth in this and in many other similar threads this last quarter; some of the latest focused on the SB's answer to JP's SLW (http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9081&page=3)and another one on the Lightest Wind board (http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9308&page=3).

On the significance of board-weight on early planning, SURF underlined similar results as their earlier tests (see further up in this thread or in the other thread on this issue (http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8705)).
Lightweight or "lighter" versions of these boards not only "feel", but rather ARE earlier on planning (i.e.SURF states: "any extra pound puts the brakes on in light wind conditions"). Thus both the LORCH Birds, JP SLW 90 PRO and SB Futura 155 have an advantage in this test!

I was surprised that SURF didn't provide their customary teutonic table of comparative performance scores between the boards in the article. So, to reach a better "holistic" view of the comparative performance between these light-wind blasters, I made an effort to create such a table based on the text. As you can see below I summarized the text of the test into a number of discernible parameters; they were then scored based on the outlined text.

The German SURF magazine could have put an end to all the early planning speculation, yet the article brought in an additional [explanatory?] parameter in the foreground when it comes to the earliest planning boards without active support (i.e. pumping). Longer NOT Shorter boards seem to be the best "easy gliders"! These boards are able to reach planning without significant pumping (i.e. passive planning). As you can see from the table below, the longest LORCH 179er is the best planning blaster. SURF states that it matches perfectly the new early planning sails (i.e. NP Helium, Severne Glide, SailLoft Traction and Gaastra Plasma - also tested in the same issue). While Formula is an extreme, the JP SLW and SB F155 seems like compromises with longer bottom curve and significant width...

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________
|OVERALL_PERFORMANCE__|_PLANNING_|_PLANNING_|_PLAN NING_|_HANDLING_|_LARGE-GEAR_|__SPEED_&_|__UPWIND_|_MANEUVERS_|_MANEUVERS|~SUMMED~|
|_____________________|_PASSIVE__|__ACTIVE__|_THR. LULLS|_COMFORT_&|_SAILS+FINS_|ACCELERAT_|__SPEED_|___TACKS___|___G YBES___|~SCORE~~|
|---------------------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+------------+----------+---------+-----------+-----------|--------|
|JP-Formula-100_______|_____6____|_____7____|_____7____|_____4 ____|______7_____|_____5____|_____7___|______5____ |______3___|~~~52~~~|
|---------------------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+------------+----------+---------+-----------+-----------|--------|
|JP-SuperLightWind-90_|_____6____|_____6____|_____6____|_____6____|__ ____6_____|_____5____|_____6___|______6____|______ 5___|~~~53~~~|
|---------------------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+------------+----------+---------+-----------+-----------|--------|
|Lorsch-Bird-149______|_____6____|_____5____|_____5____|_____7_ ___|______4_____|_____5____|_____5___|______5____| ______6___|~~~47~~~|
|---------------------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+------------+----------+---------+-----------+-----------|--------|
|Lorsch-Bird-179______|_____7____|_____5____|_____6____|_____7_ ___|______6_____|_____4____|_____5___|______6____| ______5___|~~~51~~~|
|---------------------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+------------+----------+---------+-----------+-----------|--------|
|Starboard-Futura 155_|_____6____|_____6____|_____6____|_____7____|_ _____6_____|_____5____|_____5___|______6____|_____ _6___|~~~52~~~|
|---------------------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+------------+----------+---------+-----------+-----------|--------|
|Starboard-iSonic 150_|_____5____|_____6____|_____6____|_____6____|_ _____7_____|_____7____|_____6___|______5____|_____ _6___|~~~53~~~|
|---------------------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+------------+----------+---------+-----------+-----------|--------|
|Taboo-Manta-FR-85____|_____4____|_____6____|_____4____|_____6____ |______5_____|_____7____|_____6___|______4____|___ ___7___|~~~49~~~|
|---------------------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+------------+----------+---------+-----------+-----------|--------|

Table Notes: I hope that most of the parameters are self-explanatory; for example "Large Gear" expresses the ability of the board to carry large Sails and Fins, while "planning thr. Lulls" highlights the boards ability to keep planning through wind-holes.


The table above shows that if all the parameters are weighted similarly (i.e. weight=1), then there are 4 boards: the JP Formula, JP SLW, SB F155 and SB i150 that reach similar scores! Which board is best then?
If EARLY PLANNING means most then as the Diagram below shows the best board on the market for "relaxed" early planning or "easy gliding" potential is LORCH's BIRD 179'er. Yet is that the best board?

__________________________________________________ ____________________
|PLANNING-(PASSIVE)___|AVG_|__1__+__2__+__3__+__4__+__5__+__ 6__+__7_|
|---------------------+----|-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----|
|JP-Formula-100_______|_06_|[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[---]|
|---------------------+----|-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----|
|JP-SuperLightWind-90_|_06_|[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[---]|
|---------------------+----|-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----|
|Lorsch-Bird-149______|_06_|[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[---]|
|---------------------+----|-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----|
|Lorsch-Bird-179______|_07_|[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]|
|---------------------+----|-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----|
|Starboard-Futura 155_|_06_|[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[---]|
|---------------------+----|-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----|
|Starboard-iSonic 150_|_05_|[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[---]+[---]|
|---------------------+----|-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----|
|Taboo-Manta-FR-85____|_04_|[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[OOO]+[---]+[---]+[---]|
|---------------------|----|-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----|
Table Notes: Passive or static planning implies planning with no pumping!


As there are no two people alike, preferences may vary depending on Skill, Competence, Weight, and other Contextual parameters (such as chop vrs. flat water sailing, speed vrs. recreational, competitive vrs. freerace tendencies, etc). To be able to answer and award winners we need to distinguish some rough clusters of preferences.
Hence, I used the above table scores with a well known 3 different classifications or profiles created by a series of different WEIGHTS, each representing a typical preference within a category.

I summarized my subjective opinions in the table shown below (and I AGREE that different scores may apply):

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________
|___PROFILE-WEIGHT____|_PLANNING_|_PLANNING_|_PLANNING_|_COMFO RT_&|_LARGE-GEAR_|__SPEED_&_|__UPWIND_|_MANEUVERS_|_MANEUVERS_|
|_______TABLE_________|_PASSIVE__|__ACTIVE__|_THR. LULLS|_HANDLING_|_SAILS+FINS_|ACCELERAT_|__SPEED__ |___TACKS___|___GYBES___|
|---------------------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+------------+----------+---------+------------+-----------|
|FREE-RIDE-PROFILE____|_____2____|_____1____|_____2____|_____ 2____|______1_____|_____1____|_____1___|______2___ _|______2____|
|---------------------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+------------+----------+---------+------------+-----------|
|FREE-RACE-PROFILE____|_____2____|_____1____|_____2____|_____ 1____|______2_____|_____2____|_____2___|______1___ _|______2____|
|---------------------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+------------+----------+---------+------------+-----------|
|RACING-PROFILE_______|_____1____|_____2____|_____2____|__ ___1____|______2_____|_____2____|_____2___|______1 ____|______1____|
|---------------------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+------------+----------+---------+------------+-----------|
Table Notes: Again, self-explanatory! As an example, weight of 2 means more important than a weigh of 1, thus TACKS weight of 2 means that it is important for Free-racers (and intermediates), yet not as important for Slalom- and Competition-hungry racers.


Now, if we look at the Scores per Profile a more varied picture emerges, where for Light-Wind-Performance, JP's SLW 90 and SB's Futura 155 emerge as the BEST FREE-RIDERS, SB's iSonic150 seems to be the BEST FREE-RACER, while the Formula-board representative, JP's Formula 100, emerges as the best RACER along with the iSonic 150. We also need to mention that the new LORCH BIRD 179 seems like one of the best "gliders", meaning an easy planning and handling board for intermediates - a GOOD FREERIDER!

__________________________________________________ ________|_BEST-PERFORMANCE|
|OVERALL_PERFORMANCE__|_FREE-RIDE__|_FREE-RACE_|__RACING___|__FOR-LIGHT-WIND_|
|---------------------+------------+-----------+-----------|-----------------|
|JP-Formula-100_______|_____78_____|_____88____|_____85____|~B EST-Racer~~~~~|
|---------------------+------------+-----------+-----------|-----------------|
|JP-SuperLightWind-90_|_____83_____|_____88____|_____83____|~BEST-FreeRider~~|
|---------------------+------------+-----------+-----------|-----------------|
|Lorsch-Bird-149______|_____76_____|_____77____|_____70____|~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|---------------------+------------+-----------+-----------|-----------------|
|Lorsch-Bird-179______|_____82_____|_____84____|_____77____|~Go od-FreeRider~|
|---------------------+------------+-----------+-----------|-----------------|
|Starboard-Futura 155_|_____83_____|_____86____|_____79____|~BEST-FreeRider~~|
|---------------------+------------+-----------+-----------|-----------------|
|Starboard-iSonic 150_|_____80_____|_____90____|_____85____|~BEST-FreeRacer~~|
|---------------------+------------+-----------+-----------|-----------------|
|Taboo-Manta-FR-85____|_____74_____|_____82____|_____77____|~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~|
|---------------------+------------+-----------+-----------|-----------------|

I hope that this assessment has shed some more light into the question on which are the best board for light wind blasting - XXL Slalom, Formula or the "new generation" boards (i.e non-formula light wind FREERACE boards)? While wide Race Formula and Slalom boards seem to be keeping their leading positions in their respective categories, there is a new FREE-RIDE / FREE-RACE category that is BOTH Wider + Longer, representing boards focused on Early Planning, or Low-Wind FREE-RACE boards.

In summary both the JP SLW 90 and SB iSonic 150 emerge as winners, with the former as a great freeriding board and the latter as one of the best allround racing/ free-racing boards able to challenge the Formula boards in light winds. Now if SB could provide this iSonic in a light-weight construction it would be nearly unbeatable :cool:

Thanks to all the great contributions and insights shared...


PS: Given some house projects I've delayed the acquisition of the light wind blaster, so I am also excited about the 2011 SB prospects; If the iSonic 150 is updated and lighter then it will my board of choice, else the JP SLW 90 in the GOLD construction (est. 7,6 kgs!) will be the board to go for :cool:

mark h
12th August 2010, 08:18 AM
That's a very in-depth report by Surf, nice. Thanks for translating it Chris:)

Deja Vu
12th August 2010, 11:23 AM
Now that I've had some time recently on both the Is 131 and 150 i have to confess that I prefer the gybing ability of the Is 150 over the Is 131! That's a big surprise for me since the Is 150 is about 8 cm. wider.

PG
12th August 2010, 10:21 PM
These comparative tables, are those the work of ChrisN rather than the Surf Test team? Or can they be downloaded in German somewhere?

What strikes me is the conflict between what Surf actually wrote "For us the Bird 149 is the Board in the test with the characteristics that best matches the power sails available and allows the joy of planning in the lower wind-ranges." and the result in the tables which ranks the Bird 149 as the worst board in the bunch... The outcome is of course different if the objective is to use a 10 m2 race sail on the boards (which probably does not do much for early planing).

Ken
12th August 2010, 10:42 PM
chrisN,

Wow, amazing evaluation and great detail! Thanks for sorting all of this out for us.

At some point in time after my Starboard F160 wears out (not for a couple more years at least), I will be shopping for a replacement. By then, there will probably be a nice selection of light wind planing boards since much of the world is confronted with light winds.

The popularity of these light wind blasters is contingent upon the acceptance of large rigs (9-11 meter) by the average weekend sailor. Most think that anything over 8.5 is unmanageable, but they are wrong. I believe this is where windsurfing needs to focus to increase its base of sailors.

While my favorite kit is a 6.0 with a 105 liter board in 20+ knots, I would be sitting on the beach most of the year if it weren't for my iS 111 and my formula board. If a 65 year old that weighs 77 kg can manage a 11.0 race sail in 8-15 knot winds, then we must convince the rest of the world that it's fun and exciting to sail in 8-12 knot winds.

For the longboard enthusiasts, keep it up if it is your thing. I prefer planing over cruising so I go for the big stuff. I have always had longboards, but they just don't do it for me unless I am racing.

PG,

Regarding your comment on race sails not doing much for early planing - you are correct, but If you live in a area where the winds are gusty, I much prefer giving up a knot in early planing for a broader wind range and control in the gusts. It's a trade off and is dependent upon where you sail.

ChrisN
13th August 2010, 07:11 PM
These comparative tables, are those the work of ChrisN rather than the Surf Test team? Or can they be downloaded in German somewhere?

What strikes me is the conflict between what Surf actually wrote "For us the Bird 149 is the Board in the test with the characteristics that best matches the power sails available and allows the joy of planning in the lower wind-ranges." and the result in the tables which ranks the Bird 149 as the worst board in the bunch... The outcome is of course different if the objective is to use a 10 m2 race sail on the boards (which probably does not do much for early planing).

PG, if you read my text in detail you would have realized that SURF never really provided their customary table, thus I made them myself. I attach the Excel workbook where you can see all the table and play around with the scores per parameter per board and weights per category. The sheet then estimates the scores. ENJOY :D

On the Lorsch Bird 149, I gave it the highest scores in "Passive Planning" and "Comfort & Handling", yet they were slower than the SLW, Formula and Slalom boards. Check out the extracted texts in the final tab of the workbook. In general and according to SURF, while the BIRDs win on early planning without pumping, I felt that they scored lower than the competition in many other areas (e.g. sailing through wind-holes/lulls, etc).

I think that I agree with KEN though; If you want to plan early you need to use BIG sails and BIG fins, that's why the Formula boards are unbeatable in early planning (yet it seems that they need a lot of pumping in <10knts conditions given their curve).

I will certainly plan to go for max-size sails (10-11 m2) for my iS150 or SLW90, and pick the lightest construction possible...

Hang loose :cool:

ChrisN
13th August 2010, 07:16 PM
Ups, forgot to attach the Scoring spreadsheet for SURF'sLight Wind Boards Test- here it is...

ChrisN
21st August 2010, 07:03 AM
Well folks the quest has ended :cool:

Check out the JP SLW90 killer - the brand new UltraSonic 147, which is actually provided in CARBON with a weight of 7,2 kgs!

Given the recent SURF test, it seems that this board will be even better than the iSonic 150, as it just as Wide, yet Longer AND in Lighter constructions. Certainly, this is the fabled "Light Wind Blaster" able to handle large fins (up to 62cm) and large sails (up to 11,5m2)!

Check out the picture below and the full thread at windsurfing44.com (http://www.windsurfing44.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2627&start=10)(thanks to KVDA for the link):

http://www.windsurfing44.com/matos/Starboard/2011/Starboard_2011_iSonic_03.jpg

Funny how SB has kept us on our toes for so long :)

ChrisN

Remi
21st August 2010, 09:42 AM
Hi All,

iSonic 150 was a machine for light winds with 10m, the new Ultra Sonic 147 make a big step and plane earlier and easier and can use bigger sails & fins.

In non planing condition, it will be more stable also a point who was not so funny on the iSonic 150 with bigger sails.

Star-Board continue to propose and increase their ultimate light winds boards since many years, this start with the Free Formula.

Enjoy it

All the best

mark h
22nd August 2010, 12:33 AM
I love this time of year choosing new kit:) The 2011 look wicked, spoilt for choice:) I'm think of one of the following:

Keep my old F161, and get the the iS107 carbon & iS137 carbon to replace the 08 iS111/144 (probably go with this)

or

iS147 carbon and iS107 carbon to replace the F161, iS144 and iS111?? (2 boards would get used more often)

I would really like to try the new iS147 this comming season, but also, I love my old iS144/9m combo, super fast 2:5 wind/speed ratio in light winds, so the iS137 is probably even more fun. Mmmm, tough call ??!!:)

IRL-250
22nd August 2010, 08:20 AM
New boards look awsome, just got to save some cash now and think i'll change over my 144 for the 137, keep the 111 and maybe change my 86 for the 87 if i can get a decent price for the 86 :)

Was thinking of getting a new Starboard formula board to replace my Lorch Formula but think i'll keep it for the odd day i want to sail formula as i'm loving cruising around in light winds on my new Phantom and now prefer the Phantom to the Formula in light winds up to 12 knots and i think i'd regret getting rid of the formula kit all together but can't justify replacing the Lorch for a new formula board considering how little use my formula kit will get from now on.

Remi
22nd August 2010, 09:05 AM
Hi Mark H & Alstair,

The iSonic 137 make a big step, as you know the 2009 & 2010 was same shape and 137 have the same modification as all 2011 range. Perfect for very heavy guys who wan't something in the PWA rules.

The very nice size for the Ultra Sonic 147 is 9.7 but this board is out of the PWA box, so if you want to race under this rules better to choose the iSonic 137. If not you can put up to 11m on it and replace your Formula for recreation sailing in super light winds or Longue Distance race.

All the best

mark h
22nd August 2010, 09:13 PM
Hi Remi

iS137 and iS107 for me then:) It's been a pleasure owning the iS144 for the last 2-years, Iv'e really enjoyed the speed and control in 9m weather.

The wind in the UK for 2010 have been really light and gusty so far, the 9m/XL slalom has been my most used board (and occasional formula use), this time last year we had great winds and the W44/W53 and 5.8m were my most used sails, missing those high winds:( but XL slalom has been fun.

It makes good sense for me to stay with the iS137 carbon. Looking forward to getting them both (and the new W58) :)

Remi
23rd August 2010, 07:33 AM
Hi Mark H,

Enjoy them, good choice.

All the best

IRL-250
23rd August 2010, 07:58 AM
Hi Remi,

Gonna go with the I Sonic 137 myself as i love the extra volume in the 144 so want something similar as i'm 100 kg. I plan to do some slalom events as well so need my light wind slalom board to fit the 85cm wide rule.

I'll keep my formula as well as i think the Ultra Sonic 147 will be too close to the I Sonic 137 to make it a worthwhile purchase and hopefully i might get back into doing some formula events in the future so will need a board for that.

I love my I Sonics and can't wait to see what the new boards are like on the water.

Thanks for the advice Remi

Deja Vu
24th August 2010, 09:02 AM
Remi, you recommended the Is 150 to me back in 2009 and I bought one. What a great board! This thing is fast on all points of sail and very comfortable with big sails. Now that I've spent some quality time on it I love the way it gybes - it is my favourite light wind board to gybe. If I could only have three boards I'd take the Is 150, Is 111 and Is 87 (147, 107, 87). I made a mistake and had a look at the new 2011 Isonics - damn! I can't get over the amount of deck concave these new boards have.

Remi
24th August 2010, 02:48 PM
Hi Deja vu,

You love your curent boards, great and can tell that the 2011 make a big step, particularly for the Ultra Sonic 147 who is a big evolution of the iSonic 150 who didn't change since 2009.

All the range make big step with more control due to deep deck concave, but also the footstraps position, acceleration with the new rails and very light in Wood/Carbon and Carbon and more stronger at the same time.

Enjoy it

All the best

PG
29th August 2010, 04:21 PM
The German Surf Magazin has now published a large set of equipment tests, and one of the tests is particularly interesting for this thread: http://www.surf-magazin.de/test-center/freerideboards/test-material-fur-leichtwind/

ChrisN
2nd September 2010, 11:22 PM
PG, thanks for that reference. We have used it before both in this tread and also in the specific thread dedicated to the WoodCarbon <> Wood deltas - see below:
http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8705

There is NO doubt in anyone's mind, even attested in the latest SURF test, that the lightest more rigid boards would plan more "freely". So, I would not even blink about it - if early planning is the name of the game, then I'll go with CARBON version of the UltraSonic 147! More rigid, durable and quick at 7.2 kgs with an 11m2 Overdrive it will accelerate for my weight of 89 kgs from 8 knots and survive nearly as many lulls in comparison to a HWR Formula.

Regards ChrisN

ChrisN
3rd September 2010, 12:27 AM
Hi All,

iSonic 150 was a machine for light winds with 10m, the new Ultra Sonic 147 make a big step and plane earlier and easier and can use bigger sails & fins.

In non planing condition, it will be more stable also a point who was not so funny on the iSonic 150 with bigger sails.

Star-Board continue to propose and increase their ultimate light winds boards since many years, this start with the Free Formula.

Enjoy it

All the best

Remi, thanks for your explanations on the UltraSonic147 - it certainly concluded this thread! I have to say, that you back with a vengence in this forum - highly appreciated!

Just as this thread's popularity attests there are a lot of us with similar questions - which would be the best light-wind board for my weight, conditions, sails, fins, etc.?

So, I was thinking about what we have learned from this massive discussion. It's my subjective opinion that SB should expand & improve the amount if information provided PER board! I know it would be overkill in some cases, but if you check how many have seen this thread and Emil's thread on JP's SLW90 plus other "light wind" conversations, you should really consider to "cluster" such boards into classes and provide a subsection in the iSonics/Futura/etc. board's main page.
Certainly the UltraSonic would demand more explanations as it is a "free" design - outside the PWA rules, so it should have it's own web-page.:rolleyes:

In the wishfull thinking domain, would it be great if SB could get someone with the proper background like Peter Hart (yet it could even be a respected distributor) to TEST and PUBLISH the detailed results per Board Group on such pages. In this case the US147 will have a separate test as it is a group of its own; I am not talking about the comparative tests you typically will find in magazines, but rather a detailed overview of the board, its uses, windranges, fins-to-sails and other constraints in various conditions.
You could also use OTC in El Medano or UK for a broader test of a group among testers. See an example that "sells" well at Riks Windsurfing site on the JP SLW90 (http://www.rikswindsurfing.com/news/news.html) test at: http://www.rikswindsurfing.com/news/news.html (http://www.rikswindsurfing.com/news/news.html)...:cool:

While I am considering what to do with my beloved HS105, I am certainly putting a ticket in for the US147C asap! When would it be released??

Hang Loose & keep up the great work :D

Chris

Remi
3rd September 2010, 12:39 AM
Hi ChrisN,

I like the idea of a seperate web page for this board with a max info. You can order your Ultra Sonic 147 and see that you choose the Carbon one, good choice.
I will discuss with the Marketing Managers about this issue when come back to Thailand.

All the best

agrelon
29th September 2010, 08:05 AM
Just for reference, I took my anemometer out on a session the other day to see how early I was planing.

With an Ezzy Freeride 8.5m and Bic Techno 130l (70cmW, 250cmL), 44cm Select fin I could plane in about 8-9 knots. 8 knots with pretty radical pumping, 9-10 knots with lazy pumping (sheeting in and out). I'm 60kgs now, with a good skill level. Straps inboard for better underpowered strap action, absolutely no outhaul. With gusts at about 11-12knts I was flying.

Conclusion: For lightweights formula boards (or new SLW style boards) are probably not necessary. If I had say a Futura 122l in WC I could plane even earlier thanks to weight/stiffness gains and probably experience more topspeed/better jibing than on the bic. I can start planing on my Futura 93l as of about 14knots with a 5.8m so I would say 93l + 122l would be a good combo.

The club where I now sail has an old Formula 158 with a 70cm Drake fin, and an Ezzy 9.5m. Next time the wind is light and I'm there I'll test that setup against the Bic + 8.5m to compare.

jackoo
20th October 2010, 04:48 AM
that's nice information

agrelon
20th October 2010, 10:56 AM
that's nice information

I'm going to contradict what I previously said, as I have now tried the Formula 156 with a 70cm drake fin and 9.5m Ezzy Infinity.

This setup is soooo much better than the bic and 8.5m for one reason: I can fly upwind even when I'm marginally planing. On the bic, in just enough wind conditions, it is impossible to stay upwind for very long. With the formula, you're upwind all the time, and man can that thing point! Using a formula board gives you so much more freedom in your local spot.

Ofcourse the formula board is really difficult to carve jibe compared to the bic, especially at my weight, but to be honest I don't even go for jibes in marginally planing conditions because there simply isnt enough wind to get you through the jibes fully planing. So a lack of jibing ability for me isn't a significant reason not to ride formula, as I'm always tacking in light winds.

Here's a quick go pro edit I made after my last formula session, for those who haven't had the chance to try a formula board it will give you an idea of what is possible in <10knts, no white cap conditions:

http://vimeo.com/15913514

BelSkorpio
20th October 2010, 06:45 PM
I agree with you, Agrelon.
I love my F161 and will never give up on it.
It helps me point & plane at unbelievable angles from 8-12 knots with a 11m2 (I'm heavier than you, i.e. 86kg). It's great fun. I know that I will not be the fastest, c/w the big slaloms, but I know that I will plane the earliest and the most.
Cheers.

PS: Nice video.

Remi
21st October 2010, 03:36 AM
Hi Belskorpio,

The Ultra Sonic 147 Will be thé perfect board for those who Want to be fast in verry light winds, very close to get planning as a Formula but easier, faster and not painful for the back leg like Formula on the reach

Have fun

All the best

BelSkorpio
21st October 2010, 06:37 PM
Yes, I understand, Remi.

From the moment I get the chance to test the 147, I most certainly will.

Greetings.

MOP
9th November 2010, 05:53 AM
Will severne turbo 9.2 and ultrasonic 147 be a good combination for light wind planing or does it require an overdrive 9.7. or 11

I am 90 kg...


Should I then go for Is 137 or 127 instead with this sail?

I am going to buy(order) light wind gear )board and sail) this week so I will be really grateful for any answers

I now have a ncx 8.0 and a supersport jp 127(will probably sell this board)

Maybe on the far side for this thread but still relevant... is the turbo earlier planing than the overdrive in the same sizes?

Thanks!

MOP
9th November 2010, 06:02 AM
what happened to the big windrange of the 2010 Isonics, for ex isonic 150 down to 7.5, ultrasonic 147 down to 9.0..????

This is also "true " with the other isonics..

Thoughts?

Remi
9th November 2010, 02:08 PM
Hi Mop,

Of course you can use smaller, this is mostly the best sails on this boards, for example if you was using 7.5 on the iSonic 150 it will be not a problem on the Ultra Sonic 147. In Formula Experience with the F160 they use until 6.5 but it will not give the optimum performances.

You can use the Turbo 9.2 on it without problems, my favorite sail on it is the Overdrive 9.7 and I am 90 kgs as well, more powerful and more easy to control when gust comes

Hope this help

All the best

MOP
9th November 2010, 03:10 PM
Hi Remi; Thank you very much for the reply

So the overdrive has more bottom end/is more powerful. That is an important statement because I thougt it was the turbo that had more grunt in low wind.
I already have a 490 mast and that is why I am still considering the turbo 9.2. or even the overdrive 8.5

If I am to buy turbo 9.2 instead, is there any point in going for the ultrasonic , or am I almost as early off in light wind with is137 or 127, because the sail isnt big enough to get the most out of the ultrasonic.
Im ordering tomorrow I hope..

MOP
9th November 2010, 11:59 PM
Hi again
I just read the german surf magazin on freride / race race sails from nr 6 2010
It claims that for example the neil pryde H2/gaastra swift(two cambers- I guess about the same sail as turbo) has better bottom end, better drive through lulls and better/equal middle wind speed than for ex gaastra gtx race and north ram. But clearly not as good top end speed and control in the gusts as the race/slalom sails.
If these results can be translated to overdrive and turbo, it seems like turbo might be a better choice in light wind?
Or is this not your experience regarding element/turbo contra overdrive?

I know you get the same questions over and over again but could you please reply to this one :-)

Regards Mop

BelSkorpio
10th November 2010, 12:48 AM
Hi MOP,

What you are saying about the the 2-camber free-race sails and their excellent light wind and light handling capabilities is generally true.

I cannot speak for the Severne sails, because I've never sailed them, but I have a lot experience with the NP H2 sails. I've sailed the 2010 H2's, almost in all sizes on a lot of different boards in Rhodes/Greece this year. I can tell you that these sails make you plane extremely early. I don't know a sail that does it better. Even not my NP RS:Racing sail, which I like a lot.
Pure racing sails are better in the high end wind range, especially in the gusts. They are much better manageable in highly overpowered conditions.

So it all depends up to you.
If you just like to plane early and you don't participate in any slalom competition that you eagerly want to win, choose the freerace sail. Else, choose a pure race sail.
Pure race sails also help a lot to maintain control in heavy chop,
In light wind conditions, there is not often a lot of chop, so in general you could say that a freerace sail would be enough, but the problem starts when the wind is really unstable and gusty. In these conditions I absolutely prefer a pure race sail.

MOP
10th November 2010, 01:02 AM
Thanks for a very informative reply Belskorpio

Why is a pure race sail better in choppy conditions? Does it hammer down the board better/ help the board stay flat? Will the turbo/H2 kind of sail be more stable in high wind than ncx?

What is your opinion about light wind board for me (90 kg) if I am not bying anything bigger than 9.2 Am i almost as good with the isonic 127? or wil even then the ultrasonic be a much better choice.
Or mayby 127 and overdrive 8.5 ?

Thanks again

BelSkorpio
10th November 2010, 01:44 AM
A pure race sail does indeed hammer the board more down and better loosens up in overpowered airflows.
This is exactly what you want when you're riding in heavy chop.

I think that every cambered sail will be more stable in any kind of wind (low or high end) c/w a non cambered sail. Some people like the non cambered sails because they find they can jibe easier with it, while I think that a cambered sail helps me better "pull" through the jibe turn. It's true of course that the cambers will make the sail turn over a litte bit slower, with a little extra effort of the rider. Non cambered sails have only 1 advantage, according to me, i.e. they waterstart a lot easier.

Personally, I use a 9.5m2 sail on my IS122 in 12-15 knots. It goes amazingly well. I'm 85 kg.
If the wind gets very unstable I use that same sail on my F161, which helps me a lot planing through the lulls and going upwind.
If the wind drops to 8-12 knots, I use a 11m2 sail on my F161. Works amazingly.

In your case (and this is my personal opinion), if you don't want to buy a bigger sail than 9.2m2, I would go for the IS127 or perhaps the new IS117 wide. If the wind drops under 12 knots, you really need an 11m2 sail + the IS147 or formula to get going.
The IS127 will also be perfect with the overdrive 8.5 when the wind picks up.

Good luck with your choice.
I know how hard it can be. :)

MOP
13th November 2010, 10:26 PM
How much wind will the ultrasonic 147 handle comfortably with an advanced 90 kg sailor and choppy conditions? Will an 85 cm slalomboard like Is 127 handle more windy/choppier conditions much better?

I might follow your advice belscorpio because I will probably not go bigger than turbo 9.2 an my next board down in size is a kode 112 and ncx, therefore maybe Is 127 is a better choice.

M

BelSkorpio
14th November 2010, 03:29 AM
Hi MOP,

Boy, you 're really in a struggle.

Again, my personal opinion.

A 9.2m2 sail, you will use in 12-15 knot conditions.
Will the US147 be able to handle it, sure it will.
Will it be fun, of course, Why not.

BUT, the IS127 will be more fun, lively and faster in these conditions.
The IS117/wide (80cm wide, only 5 cm less than the IS127) will be even faster and do a great job as well, according to me.
Like I told you, I use a 9.5m2 sail in these conditions on a IS122 (114L, 75cm wide).
These are conditions where I really like to be fast on reaching racks. 12-15 knots is wind enough, no need to struggle to get onto the plane. Just blast that board forward and sheet in as hard as you can, do you already feel the adrenaline flowing ? :)
The only way the bigger boards will help you is going upwind and in the lulls.

The picture changes competely below 12 knots. Then I don't care anymore to be the fastest. All I care about is planing in wathever direction. Sometimes I need to be able to do upwind racks to easily come back, even when the wind drops further temporarily. I know that I need a 11m2 sail then and a very wide board with a large fin, like a Formula.


Hope this helps.

Remi
14th November 2010, 05:04 AM
Hi Mop

The Ultra Sonic 147 was design for those who are looking to very early planning and hi performances speed but don t want to go for Formula board who are physical particularly for the reach

The board is extremelly fin that allow you a very good control when the wind pick up and can surprise marrow board like Formula do but with a lot less physical demand

Now is just a question what you want, to be unbeatable in light winds and go where you want like a Formula or more like Slalom performances, in this case the iSonic 127 will be the choice but the sail will not be the optimum one

Hope this help

All the best

MOP
23rd November 2010, 03:17 PM
Hi again!

I have ordered an ultrasonic 147.
I also ordered a turbo 9.2 because of the fact that my boom and mast (490) dont fit an overdrive 9.7.
To bad severne doesnt make the overdrives in around 9,1-9,2 meter. (why??)

Anyway, this will be my light wind equipement so I think the turbo will be a good sail to go with this board around 4 beufort.

Regarding choice of sailtype:

I can see some of the testers, both german surf and also rikswindsurfing mentions that these boards( jp superlight wind and probably ultrasonic) are designed for people NOT wanting an 11-12 meter. They are ment for sails of 8-10 meter . f eks np helium, H2, and, I suppose the turbo.

I will give you my qualified opinion when it is no longer minus 10 degrees celsius and snow here in Norway and I have been out testing the kit a couple of times

Thanks for all the help!

Mop

mark h
23rd November 2010, 06:04 PM
Could you make an album in your profile and post a few pictures when you get it? :)

MOP
24th November 2010, 02:45 PM
Yes I will do that!
I would really appreciate if everybody who get the chance to try it will write something about it.
If it is anything near the JP superlightwind I will be very satisfied. I sailed together with a friend in october who used the jp sperlightwind in marginal conditions and he had 2 fun hours while I was struggling on and off the plane with my jp supersport 74.

agrelon
25th November 2010, 12:32 AM
Yes I will do that!
I would really appreciate if everybody who get the chance to try it will write something about it.
If it is anything near the JP superlightwind I will be very satisfied. I sailed together with a friend in october who used the jp in marginal conditions and he had 2 fun hours while I was struggling on and off the plane with my jp supersport 74.

Good to know this, as I've also tried the largest Supersport 74.

Definitely, a comparison between the US and the JPSLW needs to be in order!

Armand M4M
1st December 2010, 06:59 PM
Following this topic for some time now and just registered today because of some problems with the registration page which is now solved.

2010 started recreational Formula surfing with a new F2 FX VI and Maui Sails TR5xt 11mtr. Had great fun with it this summer but the problem was that i couldnt use the board in its full potential with a 70cm+ fin @ Strand Horst because of the undepth. Sailed with a weedfin instead for some time but that totally didnt work :mad:. Ordered a custom Formula fin (Busca) 83cm cut down to 56cm which could just let the board rail in winds from 12-15kn and could start planing from 10kn. After planing, the wind could drop until 8kn still maintaining the planingmode. So, its better but still not the ultra light performance what its capable of.

As Formula @ Horst with weedfin or 56cm fin is still not the best choice, i was thinking about changing gear (or adding a larger slalomboard for this great spot). Started reading some reviews about de JP SLW, great board, but actually not the real one im looking for because im somehow addicted to a full slalomboard (erhm sorry, sailing with F2 SX58, 68, 77 :eek: ... but, you never know, maybe changing to iSonics next year :o)

Too bad the winter is in Holland now, so no surfing for a few months i think :mad: . Though in this period its nice to look around and renew / change some gear as im allready busy with:p.

For 2011 i will search an iSonic 150 '10 (have one in sight, sorry, no cash for an US :) ) and this weekend i will pickup a Severne Overdrive 9,7 '10 to have a large slalomset for the 2011 season and my first Star-Board. As soon as its completed, no ice is on the water and the temps are above 5C, i will post some pics and my experiences compared to the Formula.

Nice winds, good surfing! Aloha!

MOP
4th February 2011, 04:22 AM
Has anyone tried an US 147 yet?

mark h
28th February 2011, 06:03 PM
For all the carbon lovers, first pics of the US147 carbon:)

Chris, did you get one in the end?

http://www.board-worx.blogspot.com/

MOP
9th April 2011, 02:46 AM
Here is a film including Starboard US 147 and also some comments at the bottom of the site.
I got my US 147 one week ago, waiting for wind...

http://jimbodouglass.blogspot.com/2011/04/windsurfing-mag-board-test-wrap-up.html

mark h
9th April 2011, 06:21 PM
Nice videos:)

BelSkorpio
28th April 2011, 06:39 PM
Hi MOP,

Still no wind for the US147 ?
We are all dying to read your comments.

MOP
28th April 2011, 07:58 PM
No.
Warm weather , cold water but still no thermic effekt. Strange...

James
29th April 2011, 07:06 AM
I'm the guy who made the video that MOP posted. Absolutely loved the UltraSonic 147. Lots nicer feel than the JP SLW, which I thought was under-finned and not particularly fast or comfortable. The biggest sail I used on the UltraSonic was an 8.5, but I think it would be fine with a 10 or 11. Also tons of fun with a 7.5. Very capable upwind and driving off the fin, but still smooth and fast on a reach like a slalom / freeride board.

BelSkorpio
30th April 2011, 02:58 AM
Hi James,

I don't see any US147 in action on your video's or am I mistaken ?

It's nice to hear that the US147 is also still fun with relatively small sails like 8.5 and 7.5.

It makes me wonder if I should change in the future my 4-board quiver for a 3-board quiver, i.e.

replace the IS87/IS101/IS122/F161 combination by the following combination IS87/IS107/IS147.

After all, it's 1 board less and probably the same fun.

Remi
30th April 2011, 08:31 AM
Hi Everybodies,

https://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/video/video.php?v=474910615806

https://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/video/video.php?v=474910615806

Just in case some of you didn't see it yet

All the best

James
1st May 2011, 03:19 AM
The video with the US147 is here: http://vimeo.com/21717392

I only have a little bit of footage of it, unfortunately.

BelSkorpio
4th May 2011, 06:36 PM
Last weekend, I've seen the US147 (carbon version) for the first time live in action.
The guy was using it in 17-24 knot conditions with a 6.x m2.
He said that even in these conditions the board is very stable (no flying off the water).
I hope I can borrow it once and try it with a 10+ sail.

MOP
5th May 2011, 04:19 AM
Do you know if he used a much smaller fin than the 58 cm coming with this board sailing this board in those conditions??

BelSkorpio
5th May 2011, 07:15 PM
Don't know. I will ask him next time. He's coming regularly to my favourite WS spot.

mark h
11th May 2011, 07:06 AM
Nice short clip here:

http://vimeo.com/23469081

BelSkorpio
15th May 2011, 01:55 AM
Do you know if he used a much smaller fin than the 58 cm coming with this board sailing this board in those conditions??

He used a custom deboichet 60cm somewhat softer as the standard R13 58 and with more rake.
Not the best fin, I think, in these rather strong conditions for the US147.
But he was OK with it.