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agrelon
26th April 2010, 05:21 PM
Hi all,

My North RAM F8 teared yesterday, about 20cm under the bottom batten, right next to the stitching. I'm pretty pissed off. I only payed one third of the price for the sail because I got it from a guy who had used it twice, but it was in mint condition.

Has anybody had any experience with the North's warranty services? I really want to get it repaired by them (currently trying to contact them by email) and will not stop until they do something to help me. It's not normal that after a not so bad crash, and a total of 10 outings, a 900 USD sail should tear.

Has anyone else ever dealt with North about similar issues?

Thanks.

Langdon
26th April 2010, 08:02 PM
Don't you have a North distributor where you live ?

But I'll say, after a crash you won't get anything even if it's brand new. But that's just my 2 cents of it.

agrelon
26th April 2010, 08:30 PM
Don't you have a North distributor where you live ?

But I'll say, after a crash you won't get anything even if it's brand new. But that's just my 2 cents of it.

I've emailed the distributor.

Well I mean when the hell else is a warranty going to come in useful? The likeliness of a sail breaking when rigging or not using it is pretty unlikely. In my mind crashing comes under sailing, sails should be able to take a crash, especially race sails.

We'll see if the distributor can help, though I didn't buy it from them. Getting it repaired from a 3rd party might be difficult, as it's camber induced and pretty high tension stuff.

Thanks for your answer anyways.

Roger
27th April 2010, 12:31 AM
Hi Agrelon,
Got a photo of the torn area?
Sails sometimes tear down that low due to rigging issues, mast bases being too long,
incorrect mast bend.
None of the above would be covered under a warranty.
If you take it to an experienced windsurfing sail repair loft, they will have no problems
taking care of a tear, even in a highly stressed area near a camber inducer.
What tore?
The luff sleeve.... the luff sleeve from the monofilm.... one of the reinforcements?
Hope this helps,

agrelon
27th April 2010, 02:04 PM
Hi Agrelon,
Got a photo of the torn area?
Sails sometimes tear down that low due to rigging issues, mast bases being too long,
incorrect mast bend.
None of the above would be covered under a warranty.
If you take it to an experienced windsurfing sail repair loft, they will have no problems
taking care of a tear, even in a highly stressed area near a camber inducer.
What tore?
The luff sleeve.... the luff sleeve from the monofilm.... one of the reinforcements?
Hope this helps,

Hi Roger, the tear is 1cm under the stitching of the lower batten, on the clew extremity of the sail, and about 20cm long. The antichaf strip on the foot of the sail is holding it together.

I'm going to try get it fixed by Aerotech (Sailseast) who are based in Hong Kong. Last time I got an old raf sail fixed by UK Sails but the repair broke not long after. Plus my Ram is much more high tension, so I would rather a specialized company take care of it.

Farlo
27th April 2010, 03:50 PM
Hi Agrelon, this is strange indeed as North Sails are generally known for their robustness and durability. Maybe rigging on a RDM mast causes too much tension in the bottom, making it sensitive to a minor crash. So you should consider getting a proper mast after the repair or it may happen again.

agrelon
27th April 2010, 05:31 PM
Hi Agrelon, this is strange indeed as North Sails are generally known for their robustness and durability. Maybe rigging on a RDM mast causes too much tension in the bottom, making it sensitive to a minor crash. So you should consider getting a proper mast after the repair or it may happen again.

Yeah, eventually I want to get all my rig from one make, it'll be much better. Apparently this sail might be too powerful/heavy for my board (Futura 93l) so I'm thinking of changing back to raf... I'm going to try my friends raf sails on my board, and now that I have my GPS I'll be able to tell if full on cambers is necessary.

Farlo
27th April 2010, 09:27 PM
Hi Agrelon, here is a test of the FU93 with North Warp 5.8: http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5455 (I know you read French). It says this is a good combo but the board works even better with bigger sails up to 7 mē. Warp/RAM F8 are both very fast. The big advantage I see in cambered sails is lower drag, which makes them point a bit higher, go a bit faster... However the difference with no cam sails may be less sensible in small sizes.

agrelon
27th April 2010, 10:30 PM
Hi Agrelon, here is a test of the FU93 with North Warp 5.8: http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5455 (I know you read French). It says this is a good combo but the board works even better with bigger sails up to 7 mē. Warp/RAM F8 are both very fast. The big advantage I see in cambered sails is lower drag, which makes them point a bit higher, go a bit faster... However the difference with no cam sails may be less sensible in small sizes.

I've found a North Sails loft in Hong Kong so getting my sail fixed well should be fine :)

I think that last time I sailed my sail/board wasn't planing fast because my boom had slipped down about 10cm during my overpowered session off shore, thus leading my whole setup to feel sluggish and slow to planing.

I only managed a peak of 21knots on the GPS, which was pretty disappointing but the chop was the hardest I've ever sailed in in Hong Kong so far...

Hopefully I'll get a more docile/flatwater session in soon enough (and my sail fixed by then!) where I can really push my Vmax and test the board's feeling with different boom heights.

Cheers

Farlo
27th April 2010, 11:17 PM
Excellent... but check your mast compatibility anyway. RDM have different bend curves than SDM, much more in the bottom I think. You will keep your sail longer, and get more from it, with the proper mast (not necessarily a North). Your loft should be able to advise you.

Feeling sluggish and slow to plane is not uncommon in strong winds. Sometimes you can hardly sheet in and your board seems stuck upwind. Additionally, low speed suggests that your sail was maybe too flat (too much outhaul). I don't think it has anything to do with your boom. Raising it may help in moderate wind but many sailors would lower it in high wind anyway.

agrelon
28th April 2010, 04:08 PM
Excellent... but check your mast compatibility anyway. RDM have different bend curves than SDM, much more in the bottom I think. You will keep your sail longer, and get more from it, with the proper mast (not necessarily a North). Your loft should be able to advise you.

Feeling sluggish and slow to plane is not uncommon in strong winds. Sometimes you can hardly sheet in and your board seems stuck upwind. Additionally, low speed suggests that your sail was maybe too flat (too much outhaul). I don't think it has anything to do with your boom. Raising it may help in moderate wind but many sailors would lower it in high wind anyway.

You mentioned not being able to sheet in when sailing overpowered. I use to get that a lot on raf sails but with the blocked profile of a cambered sail this isn't a problem at all.

I have a theory also that lowering the boom helps in overpowered conditions not just because of a lower body position and easier mast foot pressure, but also because with a lower boom there is more of the mast above the boom clamp (which is a pivot point) and therefore the mast can more easily bend off and exhaust gusts as the sail creates greater leverage over the pivot point.

I got a couple of photos of my overpowered session and my mast is definitely bending nicely.

http://www.seabreeze.com.au/Media/View/3676439/Windsurfing/Wind-gusting-at-35knots-pretty-tough-on-my-58m-with-my-55kgs/?m=3&p=agrelon

Farlo
28th April 2010, 06:28 PM
Well, your boom is rather low in the window but this is frequent with North Sails, made for big guys. I have a pretty similar position whatever the wind speed. It's difficult to see from a few pictures whether the mast bends properly of not (the last one looks strange actually). Anyway small differences in bend curves may hardly be noticeable but translate in significant overstress. If you want to keep your RAM F8, my advice would be to get the closest compatible mast you can find. 60 to 75% carbon should be OK in this size.

agrelon
28th April 2010, 06:49 PM
Well, your boom is rather low in the window but this is frequent with North Sails, made for big guys. I have a pretty similar position whatever the wind speed. It's difficult to see from a few pictures whether the mast bends properly of not (the last one looks strange actually). Anyway small differences in bend curves may hardly be noticeable but translate in significant overstress. If you want to keep your RAM F8, my advice would be to get the closest compatible mast you can find. 60 to 75% carbon should be OK in this size.

I think that last picture is taken as the mast is bouncing back, as the leech is floppy. Either way, for the moment I'm going to be using a 5.6m HSM Psyclone (5 batten super light freestyle sail) which is about 2-3kgs lighter than my RAM. I think it should work better with my fin, which felt small for my more powerful, and bigger, RAM. If I can clock good speeds on the GPS and my all round sailing improves (easier waterstarts, less tiring, easier jibes, easier jumps) a lot due to the lighter weight of the sail I might consider changing back to RAF sails... We'll see what happens.

Farlo
28th April 2010, 10:17 PM
IMHO you can't really compare a race machine like the RAM and a freestyle sail, however good it is. This been said, the advantages of cams in such small sizes may be marginal, although competitors will always prefer the fastest sail. Also I presume that you can use smaller fins with cam sails. Would anybody confirm?

agrelon
28th April 2010, 10:40 PM
IMHO you can't really compare a race machine like the RAM and a freestyle sail, however good it is. This been said, the advantages of cams in such small sizes may be marginal, although competitors will always prefer the fastest sail. Also I presume that you can use smaller fins with cam sails. Would anybody confirm?

I'm thinking they might need bigger fins as they are more powerful and heavier and therefore need more lift and lateral resistance. At least that's the feeling I'm getting with a smaller than recommended 30cm fin...

Farlo
29th April 2010, 02:43 PM
Well I think that a cam sail has much less drag, possibly also less lift but better lift/drag ratio, than the equivalent no-cam. Although more powerful, it generates less sideways force. Of course it's difficult to prove because cam and no-cam sails often come in different designs. However there are a few exceptions and I wonder if a mag ever did this kind of test. But it has nothing to do with NS warranty anymore. Let's open another thread if you're interested.

Unregistered
18th May 2010, 11:57 PM
I like the feel of a boom set somewhere between the shoulders and chin.

I've had old school guys claim that forehead height was once the rule of thumb.

Any discipline that's concerned with power, formula, freestyle, slalom, goes with a high boom.

Maximum height should give the best power transfer, as it's closer to the sail's center of effort. Less power is wasted in the form of mast flexing. When your sail is on the max downhaul settings, and the COE is low and backhanded, a raised boom can enhance your leverage over the sail.

I disagree with the opinion that most speed sailors set their boom low. Looking at a few videos the boom is typically shoulder height and above. On a narrow speed board, that would seem higher than normal.

If your boom is slipping from chop bounces, you might want to spend some extra time making sure the clamp is set well.

Deja Vu
24th May 2010, 09:54 PM
BD uses a low boom and he's done O.K. Photos of people sailing are deceptive as far as boom height is concerned, since their body position may make the boom appear higher than it actually is. If you're comfortable, whatever the boom height (within reason), then you're probably faster.