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nakaniko
24th October 2010, 10:16 PM
Here I am, I'm Nico from Venice
The "damage" is done!
After months and days of reflection and research I've ordered a Serenity Sportech!
I'll have to go and pick up it by myself far from home, and then carry it with a car-boat redez-vous in my (water)town. I will store it for winter under a roof in my parent's house, hangin it (safely) at the the rafters of the 15-16' century...

I feel like I'm daring a little because of the opinions of windsurfer friends who are still very close to the "classic" actual and imho nasty idea of windsurfing, that nothing under 12 knots is real wind...
And really is the second time in life I buy a new windsurf board, incomes in Italy are not so good...
But I strongly believe Serenity is the way to windsurf almost everyday I want and I can in my town. For various reasons I've had only two planing windsurfing sessions in Venice this year!

Anyway now I have a lot of questions.
Fin: I know I'll have to buy a seaweed fin as I use on my other boards in Venice, that have powerbox head, as I don't think it will be possible to use 70 cm fin (shallow waters are usual outside channels, and windsurf is authorized only there). Powerbox/deep tuttle adapter? I mean direct, not reducing the actual head to a multifin and then buyng two adapters. Otherwise I've read about Lessacher's: Chamaleon or Duo? Lessacher's are surely the best, but like for my actual Fanatic weed 32-48 fin a cheaper g-10 construction seems easier to sand every time I scratch the tip on the seabed as I often do to my actual Fanatic; and therefore the concave idea seems to be a must to avoid spinouts problems in planing boards, but as a centrefin on a serenity, seems not to be useful... Or the result is more speed even on Serenity?

Fin 2, the rear little fin. I own and keep in Venice 3 us fins, a square freestyle 26 with similar shape compared to the little 13 provided, a curved 28 and a pheraphs too big 38, the former fin for my first Bic Calypso. Except for the 38 that I fear it can damage the serenity tail box, some advandage from a slightly bigger us fin?

Protection(s). As I've read that Serenity is not the stronger board, I was wondering to apply some protection for carryng it, a protection for boom impacts, a long strap system for towing it from the boat, but especially a nose protection to avoid breackage problems, like in finding hard object floating in the water (unfortunately not so difficult here). I've seen that also in one of the serenity offical video can be clearly seen the damaged tip, even if on a more delicate wood version. Suggestions?
:)

Barker
25th October 2010, 12:46 AM
nakaniko,
I can't offer any advice on the Serenity I'm afraid (but offer good luck) but I am interested that you windsurf in Venice having visited in 2007 and really enjoyed the place. I remember seeing some of the water of the lagoon on ferry trips back to St Marco from the island of Murano, from St Marco across to the strip of land that has the Adriatic beach and an early evening boat ride from the centre out to the airport. Do you sail somewhere in the lagoon? or from the Adriatic beach? Anyway, good for you, and I hope you find the Serenity works out well.
Regards
Barker

Roger
25th October 2010, 01:31 AM
Hi Nico,
I responded a couple of days ago, but somehow the thread got shuffled to being "watched" as SPAM.
Anyway, I will repsond again now that your thread has opened back up.

"Anyway now I have a lot of questions."
"Fin: I know I'll have to buy a seaweed fin as I use on my other boards in Venice, that have powerbox head, as I don't think it will be possible to use 70 cm fin (shallow waters are usual outside channels, and windsurf is authorized only there). Powerbox/deep tuttle adapter? I mean direct, not reducing the actual head to a multifin and then buyng two adapters. Otherwise I've read about Lessacher's: Chamaleon or Duo? Lessacher's are surely the best, but like for my actual Fanatic weed 32-48 fin a cheaper g-10 construction seems easier to sand every time I scratch the tip on the seabed as I often do to my actual Fanatic; and therefore the concave idea seems to be a must to avoid spinouts problems in planing boards, but as a centrefin on a serenity, seems not to be useful... Or the result is more speed even on Serenity?"

My experience with the 70 cm fin that comes with the Serenity (I had them in my demo fleet for 2 years)
is that you do not need that big a fin. The huge 70 cm that comes with the board is a great fin, but it has a really BIG downside....... it "bites" really suddenly in transitions (tacks and jibes) and can throw you off the board until you get used to it.
I found that if you rail the Serenity correctly, you can get nearly as good upwind performance with much smaller fins.
My favorite vertical fin was a 60 cm DeBoichet Concept.
I also used alot of different weed fins and found that the 36 cm Lessacher Duo worked great.
The double concaves on the Lessacher fins are not about speed (they help with drag, but on the Lessacher Duo Weed the concaves are what makes these fins shed weeds so well.
So, if you rig smaller than 8.5 m2 on the Serenity, the Lessacher Duo Weed 36 cm in the front and and tiny Lessacher Duo Weed 26 cm (In "A" or Euro box) in the back should give you great performance on the Serenity.
Big fins just create alot of drag and even at slow speeds reducing drag is important.
Also, I would stay away from any sort of fin root adapter! Just buy the Lessacher Duo Weeds and fit them carefully to your Serenity and you will have the best fins for the type of sailing you can do on the Serenity!

"Fin 2, the rear little fin. I own and keep in Venice 3 us fins, a square freestyle 26 with similar shape compared to the little 13 provided, a curved 28 and a pheraphs too big 38, the former fin for my first Bic Calypso. Except for the 38 that I fear it can damage the serenity tail box, some advandage from a slightly bigger us fin?"

No advantage to a larger fin. Smaller fins and smaller sails (I used the Severne Glide 7.5 m2 sail that was specifically designed for the Serenity much of the time, but found that 5.5-6.5 Sailworks Retros and a 5.0
Sailworks Retro Ripper (all very powerful in very light wind if rigged for light wind) worked really well and did not reduce the speed very much.

"Protection(s). As I've read that Serenity is not the stronger board, I was wondering to apply some protection for carryng it, a protection for boom impacts, a long strap system for towing it from the boat, but especially a nose protection to avoid breackage problems, like in finding hard object floating in the water (unfortunately not so difficult here). I've seen that also in one of the serenity offical video can be clearly seen the damaged tip, even if on a more delicate wood version. Suggestions?"

Might want to put a rubber bumper of some sort right on the front tip, but the Serenity boards I had were both WOOD construction and I really had no problems with dings at all.
You are getting the slightly tougher Sport Tech construction, so if you don't run the nose into seawalls and such, you should have no issues with dings.
Remember, you are not going at fully planing speeds, so you have time to turn away from things that will damage your Serenity.
As far as damage to the tips of the Lessacher Carbon Duo Weed fins, all of my Duo Weeds are worn down a bit, but it does not seem to have affected the performance very much, if at all.
Be sure to run weed fins in both the front and rear because if you run a vertical fin in the back it will collect weeds and you will have to get off or back up to clear them off the fin.
Hope this helps,
Roger

Barker
25th October 2010, 04:40 AM
Roger,
I don't know whether you have seen but I'd be really grateful for any comment on my post of yesterday re nose damage to an iSonic please. Your advice on other structural problems has been really helpful in the past. Many thanks
Barker

Roger
25th October 2010, 10:43 AM
Hi Barker,
Can you send me a photo of the damaged area?
I'm sure that the Isonic is not molded in two pieces as you have seen with other boards with a molded on
top and bottom skins.
The Isonic will have at least 2 overlaps of glass or carbon fiber on the nose, with structural foam and another layer of thin fiberglass under the structural foam. Then the core foam.
So, I doubt that you have a "separation" of the upper skin and lower skin because that is not how the Isonics are constructed.
On a few Starboards, when they overlap the top and bottom layers of fiberglass/carbon, I've seen the "trim line" (usually on GOs and Starts with an EVA deck where they sand the EVA flush with the lower side of the board) where they have sanded it too thin, but this would not apply to an Isonic.
Without seeing the damage it's impossible to tell you if the damage extends beyound the outer layers of your board.
My guess would be that it does not, and that if you sand/fair the white finish off the nose you can make a good looking and structurally sound repair with one or 2 layers of 12 oz/sq ft fiberglass cloth.
Apply the glass, squeegee in an appropriate amount of epoxy resin, sand it fair and repaint it, and your board should be as good as new.
If you have a photo, send it to me @
sailquik@embarqmail.com
Hope this helps,
Roger

nakaniko
25th October 2010, 04:52 PM
Thanks Roger

"I responded a couple of days ago, but somehow the thread got shuffled to being "watched" as SPAM."

Thanks for reposting. There could be some problems about messages, I've written 3 times like an answer to my original topic (Serenity, rent/test in Northe Italy?), and one time like new message, nothing to do, then I decided to create a new personal account.

"I also used alot of different weed fins and found that the 36 cm Lessacher Duo worked great. The double concaves on the Lessacher fins are not about speed (they help with drag, but on the Lessacher Duo Weed the concaves are what makes these fins shed weeds so well. So, if you rig smaller than 8.5 m2 on the Serenity, the Lessacher Duo Weed 36 cm in the front and and tiny Lessacher Duo Weed 26 cm (In "A" or Euro box) in the back should give you great performance on the Serenity. Big fins just create alot of drag and even at slow speeds reducing drag is important. Also, I would stay away from any sort of fin root adapter! Just buy the Lessacher Duo Weeds and fit them carefully to your Serenity and you will have the best fins for the type of sailing you can do on the Serenity!" (...)
Be sure to run weed fins in both the front and rear because if you run a vertical fin in the back it will collect weeds and you will have to get off or back up to clear them off the fin.

Mmm then I'll consider buying the Lessacher Duo 36. I've seen that also Lessacher puts the sizes of the weed fins by the depht, and then there is the link to a page that shows the lenght of the raked fin assuming 45' degreees of rake like the standard. so it's a 36/50. I would like much more the system used by my old Fanatic weed fin that has written both the lenght and depht, in the Fanatic is written 34/48 (depht/lenght), I've checked my other Prolimt and it's 32/40 and then clearly less raked than the Fanatic one.
Right that also the rear fin has to be a weed fin, even if I forgot to tell that many times for me the problem is not floating weeds, but alive seaweeds in shallow waters that only somewhere reach the water surface, so I have problems with long fins, not with the small ones. But for sure a tiny seaweed also on the tail could be better. The point I don't understand is that if assuming 26 the depht of the fin, that one would be a really bigger fin than the provided one 13,5 cm, being - if 45' raked - somewhat like a 26/36 (according to Lessacher website)... So, as you tell no advandages from a rear bigger fin than the provided one, pheraphs did you mean the Weed Wave 18 that is 18/25 or an even smaller one not from Lessacher?

"Might want to put a rubber bumper of some sort right on the front tip, but the Serenity boards I had were both WOOD construction and I really had no problems with dings at all.
You are getting the slightly tougher Sport Tech construction, so if you don't run the nose into seawalls and such, you should have no issues with dings."

These news make me very happy. I'll have to carry it in my (traditional wooden) boat so I was a little worried about it. But I have also to find a solution in case of towing the board (as I've done a lot of times with my Mistral Echo, because I suppose that when reducing the speed of the boat the serenity could slam into the stern of my boat...

"Remember, you are not going at fully planing speeds, so you have time to turn away from things that will damage your Serenity."

Hehehe but with such a long nose you have to see the floating objects before they are near to the board, and it's not easy in not crystal clear water like our. On the opposite when travelling fast I've see that Serenity nose rise over the water surface, so less problems. I'll also have to see ho quickly reacts this sailing gondola when I suddenly change directionto avoid something-

"No advantage to a larger fin. Smaller fins and smaller sails (I used the Severne Glide 7.5 m2 sail that was specifically designed for the Serenity much of the time, but found that 5.5-6.5 Sailworks Retros and a 5.0
Sailworks Retro Ripper (all very powerful in very light wind if rigged for light wind) worked really well and did not reduce the speed very much."

About sails I'm gonna use my actual freeride sails, an HSM Stealth 8,5 from 1999 and pheraphs the similar Stealth 9,5 from 2003. I've seen slightly different opinions about it, anyway for me the way is simple, as I want to carry in my boat also my other freeeride board, so if wind slightly pick up over 12 ktn I can switch to the other board without changing sail, and this as you can understand, is way easier doing all in or from a boat...

Hope this helps,
Roger

Very much as usual. Thanks

nakaniko
25th October 2010, 05:10 PM
nakaniko,
I can't offer any advice on the Serenity I'm afraid (but offer good luck) but I am interested that you windsurf in Venice having visited in 2007 and really enjoyed the place. I remember seeing some of the water of the lagoon on ferry trips back to St Marco from the island of Murano, from St Marco across to the strip of land that has the Adriatic beach and an early evening boat ride from the centre out to the airport. Do you sail somewhere in the lagoon? or from the Adriatic beach? Anyway, good for you, and I hope you find the Serenity works out well.
Regards
Barker

Venice unfortunately have poor and light winds, so this is the reason for Serenity. Anyway I use to carry all the windsurf stuff in my boat to the northern side of the lagoon, as my parents live there. Up to some years ago I used to have windsurf sessions just in front on Fondamente Nove, i.e. where you took the ferry to Murano island. Few minutes to reach the spot, but polluted water from the town, even if I have some photo of me planing with the town beside and also with S. Marco bell tower in the background; and when I was still living with my parents I was able to be on the windsurf in 40 minutes from my bedroom!
Since two years I moved to another slightly more far place that is north of Murano, SW to Venice airport, where I can find some shallow waters to rig easily, and i't good for the Bora (NE) and SE winds.
For the situation of Venice it's hard for me to reach Lido and the sea from Venice downtown i.e. watertown, I prefer keeping another quiver in the outskirts and then sometime go to Chioggia-Sottomarina, but only when I'm already in the mainland for work or other reasons. Even if i't strange to make a 40' car trip to reach a place that is not more than 10 km straight from my house...

nakaniko
1st November 2010, 05:04 AM
Finally at home, my Serenity.
Since I don't trust so much in carriers, especially for so special items like a 460 cm board, after an agreement with the seller I've gone by myself to take the board at the distributor, so I took a permission at work and then I've gone directly from Venice to Munich, put the board over the roof of my car and then straight back to the house of my parents in the Alps; 1000 km from 11,30 a.m. to 1.00 a.m. of the following day... If this insn't love for our sport... The day after I went home for a meeting with my cousin's boat and then finally carrying in Venice the Serenity.
Unwrapped the big pack and then what a look! For sure one of the most fascinating and wonderful things I've ever bought in my life!
It reminds me the sailing boats that my granfather teach me to admire when I was a child and I use almost every day to go on his old famous boat (that now can be seen in the local museum!). Especially the Serenity seems to be like the long, narrow and fascinating type called "cutter".
Unfortunately now is cold and rainy, really I can wait to ride it until next spring. Meanwhile I have time to find a lot of solutions for the problems of carrying the Serenity in my parent's traditional boat and also for towing it from the boat.
I feel I want to thank Starboard for having the courage of doing something so unusual and beautiful, going against all vogues. I feel it's something like having an high class sailing boat without all the problems and expenses of this kind of boats, and the same time feeling the uncomparable sensations of windsurfing in most of the real wind days that we have.

amateur
9th November 2010, 04:42 AM
Hi All!
I have Serenity sporttech (2010) in Moscow. This is a very interesting board! The wind in our region is light, not stable in the direction and in the velocity, because there are many obstacles on the lake beech. I used a Sailworks Retros 7.5, my weight is 80 kg. For the usual conditions with the wind 2-6 knots this sail is small for me and some heavy for this wind. What sail is better for my condition, Severne Glide 8.5 m2 (2010) or Severne Raceboard 9.5 m2 (2011) or another sail?

Roger
9th November 2010, 07:25 PM
Hi Amateur,
Since the original concept for the Glide line of sails was to power the Serenity, the Glide, with a 100% carbon mast will probably be the better of these two sails.
The Glide is a very light sail, but so is the Retro 7.5, so I don't know how you will make the rig any lighter
by going larger.
I sailed the first 2 years Serenity boards with the Severne 7.5 m2 Glide and that was to me the best overall combination.
The Serenity may surpise you . Larger sails really don't seem to improve the light wind speed by as much as you would think.
Roger

amateur
10th November 2010, 12:10 AM
Thanks Roger, but why there is no Glide in the Severne 2011 sails line? Maybe the sail Raceboard is the replacement of the Glide? About Retro. My Retro (2006) I think is the strong sail for the strong man and wind 15-20 knots with the another board of course. I have used this sail successfully with JP 130. But it is realy heavy then for example NP Hellcut.

nakaniko
10th November 2010, 03:44 AM
Interesting thing. All I've read about sails is about planing, but now that is about gliding? So I've read that cam sails are more stable but camless are more easy planing than the others. But under planing? So with a small breath of breeze has more push a camless HSM Stealth like mine ore is better to have an heavier full camber sail that remain more stable in the shape? I mean except for the Glide, made for the Serenity-
But if the philosophy of the board is as told on website a plug-and-play toy, does make sense a slow rigging and more critical slalom or race sail?
Too question and no answer on the water, I can't wait to ride it until next spring!

p.s.: little last question for Roger: found on the web a smaller tail fin 10 cm, seaweed or almost wave curved, really is a twinzer 10 cm long but I think 10 cm deep (not so easy to find tiny us raked fin), seems almost the same depht of the provided square 13,5 tail fin even if not same surface. Sounds good?

Roger
10th November 2010, 08:31 AM
Hi nakaniko,
The Serenitys I had did not have any provision for a rear fin, so I'm not sure what to tell you
about the tiny swept back fin.
I found that if you "railed" the Serenity, put the mast foot well forward to get the bow/nose to "bite"
there was no issue going upwind at all.
Even with very small weed fins and very small sails.
I talked to Jim Drake (the designer of the Serenity) about Serenity tuning, and that was his suggestion.
I used weed fins in the 32-42 cm range as well as vertical race/slalom fins in the 52-60 cm range and
the board was fast in very light winds.
Even sailed it in 25 knots (in a small smooth water bay) with a 4.2 m2 Sailworks Hucker.
I was going almost as fast as the 90-110 liter boards, but if you try this you will learn that the
Serenity does have a maximum speed.
When you get going so fast that the bow wave moves back under the mast foot, and the tail
gets far enough below the surface that the stern wave closes over the rear tip of the board,
you will discover that the Serenity has a different personality (not so serene).
I would try the board without any rear fin and then try the rear fin as see what it does for you.
Roger

amateur
10th November 2010, 04:45 PM
I used Serenity with and without rear fin. It is useful in the down wind course, the board became some stable. On the another courses the rear fin not affected appreciably.

nakaniko
10th November 2010, 08:50 PM
Wow. The lionheart of the Serenity in strong winds. Thanks all. I'm already dreaming of long sailing trips all around the lagoon.
I think I'll try the cheap 10 cm tiny fin, let's see if forum system now leave me to write the link:
http://online-ski-snowboard-verleih.de./Bilder/Wassersport/Surfen/Finnen/102_3591.jpg
I hope for something more warmer for the next S. Martin Summer (=indian summer) for the Serenity's debut, last chance before winter, let's see.
Meanwhile here it is my giant baby in the storage room of my parent's house, not so far from being in the water as the floor is about 1,2 metres over average sea (lagoon) level and subject to high tides as you can see from permanently raised refrigerator on the left (board safely stored over two wardrobe cabinets)...
http://img3.fotoalbum.virgilio.it/v/www1-5/649/64903/105409/NicocellN821168-vi.jpg

nakaniko
10th November 2010, 10:20 PM
Another Serenity video (not so easy to be found on the web) just to increase the riding desire:
http://www.broadbandsports.com/node/16867
Little too much video mixer use, but nice images and nice music, better fullscreen and turn up the volume. What a guy the windsurfer, and almost at the end is he riding a wave with the Serenity?

nakaniko
15th November 2010, 07:01 PM
Tuttle-Deep Tuttle problem
I've ordered a DT 40 deep (56 max lenght) weed fin, honestly the cheaper I've found.
Instead of the one ordered with deep tuttle head the german shop has sent me the one with tuttle head!
So: for this lenght are there problems/risks for the fin box of Serenity using a tuttle instead a deeptuttle one?
(real photo soon - meanwhile this is the photo of fin with other head but with this strange change of rake like mine)
http://i19.ebayimg.com/02/i/001/28/cb/07c1_12.JPG

Roger
15th November 2010, 10:50 PM
Nakaniko,
This looks like a very nice fin.
I do not see any issue with using this in the Serenity as the fin box is really solid and with the long fin
screws/bolts there wound not seem to be any issue with breaking the fin box out of the board.
I believe the fin box goes all the way through the board is is attached at both the bottom and the deck,
making it very resistant to shear loads.
The "funny" angle on this fin is "progressive rake" and is really a good thing rather than a problem.
Roger

amateur
16th November 2010, 02:15 AM
Maybe there is a power box on the picture with one screw? Tuttle and Deep Tuttle has a two screws.

nakaniko
16th November 2010, 04:27 AM
Yes this is a sample, the same fin with a powerbox head
Mine has tuttle head, but unfortunately not deep tuttle as I've ordered
http://img4.fotoalbum.virgilio.it/v/www1-6/649/64903/105409/TZone40Tu-vi.jpg
Here it is mine fin, on the (horrible) floor of my office.
Meanwhile I have to thank again Roger, so I can trust also in this tuttle fin, with some more question (technical, I hope interesting for the forum readers)
I was worried also because I've found some old thread about it on this forum and the border between the maximun size that a normal tuttle is suggested seems to be around 55 cm, not talking about seaweed fins. Here it is: http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3235&highlight=max+tuttle+lenght
So a 56 long seems to be at the limit, but yes the Serenity is way thicker and the very long fin screws witnesses that is a rock solid fin box. Therefore the side pressure of a planing board is far more than the one on a Serenity, I suppose (and I tested by myself that even on a planing board the side pressure of a weed fin is less than a straight fin).
I suppose...
So my last concern is not about the possibility of a sudden breackage of the whole fin box from the board, but about side pressure over a smaller piece of finbox sidewall in a TU than a DT that can slowly enlarge the lower part of the box, even finally breaking the "mouth" of the box.
And finally it depends how the finbox is made. I still own and use outside Venice a custom (Trevisiol) flapper board, couriously made with a powerbox finbox but pheraphs the strongest ever made, that with the lower winds I always use with a 66 cm straight fin from Rainbow without any kind of problem

Roger
16th November 2010, 08:02 AM
Hi Nico,
If you make sure that the std. Tuttle fin head really fits in the Serenity center fin box, there is no way that
the fin head or the fin box can "slowly enlarge"! (Your term, not mine).
If you use a bar of bath soap as a contact marking media), and make sure that the std. Tuttle fin head is a nice tight "push fit" all the way into the fin box, with no slop or space on the sides, and then fit the front and rear tapered radii so that the fin bolts "pull" the fin head into full engagement with the front and rear tapers, there can be no "wear" or "slow enlargement" as there will be NO (zero) movement!
Without any movement, and full contact between the flat parallel sides of the fin box you will get the maxumum support for the fin in the fin box.
Make sure that the fin "slides in" nice and tight, all the way in, but that it sits proud (slightly above) the bottom surface of the board when you push it in by hand.
Then when you tighten the fin bolts, you will "draw" the front and rear tapered radii into full engagement.
You will need to find some longer (about 18 mm as that is the design difference between the std. Tuttle
depth and the Deep Tuttle depth) fin screws.
To bad the custom flapper board you have has a powerbox fin. The 66 cm Rainbow might work very nicely
in the Serenity in clean (no weeds)/deep water, but I found that a 60 cm DeBoichet Concept (molded.... not custom racing) was very nice in the Serenity in clean/deep water.
Hope this helps,
Roger

nakaniko
17th November 2010, 11:49 PM
All right, you convinced me. And I've also seen all around in the web shops that mostly the weed fins in stock are with normal Tuttle head, also the 40 cm deep. Therefore I'm thinking to use the space left in the finbox by de DT-TT difference to place a rubber bumper, to make thinner waist fin screws to be broken in case of hard impact, and other strange things.. Yes I am pessimistic.
Going to my parent's house to test the fin on the Serenity (fin head too large, I have to sand it), I've met my uncle Mario who keep his boat moored near mine and talked about the mistake of the german shop, showin' him the fin (he's not a windsurfer). He has told me that for him 40 cm deep+10 cm of boat displacement + 10 cm at least of clearance from seabed, so 60 total, can sometime be still a too big amount in some wild places of the lagoon, and for sure for him I'm gonna cut soon a large piece of fin's tip. In fact we both have tipical venetian boat with flat bottom who go less deeper under the water surface.
So I was thinking as second and last fin to buy in the U.S. (or tell my brother in Seattle to buy for me hoping he's gonna remind that Christmas is coming...) at this, normal TU head:
http://www.rikswindsurfing.com/shop/access/fins/delta-weed/z-xxl.jpg
This is the link on a UK site: http://www.rikswindsurfing.com/live/select-delta-anti-weed-fin-2010-2473-0.html (not the us site where I want to buy it). Specs: Delta XXL 27.5cm (Relative 45-50cm).
Only 27,5 cm of depht seems to me a dream, and a Select fin should be a warranty... And finally the Serenity shouldn't have problems with a so nice but fatty fin, if it keep his speed even with that flexy plastic fin provided as second fin after the monster and professional 70 cm, I mean the black plastic Shallow 40... ;-))

Roger
18th November 2010, 10:30 AM
Hi Niko,
I've never seen a weed fin of this design, so I have no idea if it will be good on the Serenity.... or not.
If your brother is in Seattle, WA, USA he could easily purchase a True Ames or Tangent Weed fin (more conventional designs... both of which I've used in the Serenity.
Not sure why you did not get the Lessacher Design 36cm or 40 cm Duo Weed? I have also tested these 2 fins in the Serenity pretty extensively.
Let us know how the strange looking XXL from Select fins works please?
Regards,
Roger

nakaniko
18th November 2010, 08:04 PM
Let's see if the us shop quickly answer about this "pan" shape fin (up to now they doesn't answer), my brother is coming in Italy for Christmas; unfortunately I know it for sure only from few days so I could not check the US web stores before. And so now that I already have a normal weed fin I was only thinking something for I hope my Christmas present and the ultra-raked low-depht (27,5 cm!) Select seems something different and useful for my needs. And I hope it will comes to me for free...

So I don't need another normal weedfin like the one I have. Anyway I've seen True Ames (so nice! love the shifted forward shape); not easy to find the Tangent. Here the True Ames
http://images.the-house.com/ta-blade-weed-tut-all-08-zoom.jpg
So it could have been a very interesting choice, obviously knowing it before, because buying with an overseas shipping it's pricy and almost not possible as italian border officers heavily charge almost all the items, even if it's clearly written on the packet that is a gift from my brother (it happened to me two years ago with a pair of snowboard bindings). And therefore they have the same price of Lessacher Duo Carbon fins here in Europe, about 100 euro.

About these last, pheraphs I made a mistake not following your first suggestion. But I've found some trouble.
First everywhere seems to be available only the Duo Weed 32, not or no more for this season the 36.
32 works good for 8,5?
Second, I've found everywere only the pricy black Duo carbon seaweed at about 100 euro (today =135 USD) even if on Lessacher website were and still is shown the G10 version. Yesterday Lessacher itself has answered that G10 Duo are sold out; for the heavy use I need I wasn't trusting so much in carbon fibers, note that on my actual powerbox G10 Fanatic I've sanded away scratching it on the seabed pheraphs 1 cm of the tip but the fins is still in good shape and working properly; and I (wrongly?) thought that a carbon construction could have some problems of loosing some layers on the tip and delaminating, as it happens with old carbon masts. Lessacher told me no delamination issues on his carbon fins.
Therefore I wanted the 40 to have the closest lift compared to the provided 70 with the lowest winds.
But first of all honestly I wanted to spend less and I've spent 58 (78 USD) instead about 100 (135 USD); gaining for the difference some stress and confusion...

nakaniko
24th November 2010, 05:08 PM
After the seaweed-fin-brainstorm (thanks and excuses to everyone) here it is how I solved the problem of the Serenity boardbag, almost necessary for protecting the board in the rude carrying over my traditional wooden boat, full of sharp corners. I write here hoping it can be useful for everyone who cannot find the original (pricy) Serenity boardbag; I've looked for it but no answer in Italy, so I decided to do something on my own.
I thought that Serenity is something like two boards fused togheter on the stern, I mean having two long bows, so I started searching for two even used old boardbag made for pre-2000 no-nose board, or in any case long and not too wide. I needed two simple model, to avoid increasing too much the weight to carry and for better matching between the two sterns of the boardbags.
I've easily found them in clearance in a former windsurf store (now snowboard store), at a very cheap price. Really I decided to use only one of the two I''ve bought, the more simple, for the second for the stern of Serenity I've dug up from the bottom of my cabinet the former old bag of my Mistral Echo 298.
Then, after some tests, I've put the new (blue) one on the bow turned at 90 degrees with the shorter side of the side zip on the side of the hull and the longer side on the upper deck. This way I can close a little bit the zipper just over the mastrack but I can also leave the mastfoot mounted if I want. So the high bow edge is well protected. With a simple elastic rope circle is easy to keep folded the "wing" of the boardbag left over the deck of the bow.
For the stern I kept the other old (yellow) boardbag flat, the original edges of tail were already cut for other pourposes, so they arrive perfectly at the middle handle bar of the board that remain almost free to be used! Even with a no-nose shape the boardbag leaves enough room for leaving the little tail fin mounted and wel protected too.
Photos soon, here it is one.with final result
http://img4.fotoalbum.virgilio.it/v/www1-6/649/64903/105409/NicocellN821198-vi.jpg

nakaniko
1st December 2010, 09:25 PM
Rigging a sail for Serenity.
As I have different options to rig my Hotsailsmaui Stealth 8,5 (7 batten freerace camless) and eventually the same sail in 9,5 I was wondering if for heavy guys like me, 90 kg, would be the best to rig on a softer or stiffer mast.
This because I found that on the Raceboard Sails specs is written: "Rigging tips: Light sailors can use a 490 mast with mast extender that would soften the rig and allow it to flex and breath. Medium and heavy weight sailors can use a 530 or 540 mast."
But on the specs of Serenity 2008: "The most suitable sail types are powerful freeride and freerace sails. To optimize lightwind performance, rigging onto a softer mast and creating a deep draft in the sail is recommended."
So for Serenity always better a softer mast or a stiffer one for us heavyweight sailors?

Roger
1st December 2010, 09:56 PM
Hi Nico,
90 Kg. may not qualify you as a true "heavyweight"!
With modern sails, that twist off alot at the top, going with a softer mast (for sure a mast that is softer in the top section) is going to make for more twist and less draft in the top of the sail.
So, you will need to downhaul alot less than normal to keep some draft in the top of the sail.
Twisty tops work in lots of wind and in gusty conditions.
Fuller tight batten tops that do not "twist off" so easy make better sails for things like the Serenity.
Not sure why you want to go with such a big sail as a 9.5 m2.
A 7.5 or 8.5 Glide on a 100% mast, with a carbon boom, may be very nearly as fast as your 9.5 m2 as these rigs will weigh significantly less.
I think your HSM Stealth 8.5 is going to work pretty well if you under downhaul it so the top stays full and
run the outhaul at neutral.
Remember to bend the mast until the front of the batten above the boom gets back to about the middle of the mast (front to back).... then just a touch of outhaul to stabilize the foil.
This will make it as full as you can get it on the mast you have.
If the top is really loose, look for a slightly stiffer mast.
Roger

nakaniko
1st December 2010, 10:30 PM
Mmm I understand. Thanks also for calling me not true heavy guy, even if I'm 175x90.
Thanks to your suggestion I think I will not carry in Venice the 9,5 (it's also a quite hard work...). I was thinking that a 8,5 can work up to the wind level that I can easily plane with my wide freeride board; and I've tested that a 9,5 is not so good in handling in an almost narrow board; and then if that planing level is 12 knots, this mean leaving some space for the most exciting I hope situations of speed with Serenity, after the gliding with the lowest winds (already bought a dry backpack for one day trips in my lagoon, and I'm gonna buy a "safety" sup paddle also..)
The 8,5 is a still good sail from 1999, required mast 490/29. Worked surprisingly good with North 490/28 30% carbon (now cut down to 460); shape seemed full and sail soft even if the rig was heavy. Then I've bought on sale a Tribord by Decathlon 490/30 100% carbon, rig much lighter obviously but sail the only time I've tested it with that mast seemed almost flat. If I well remember the sail was told to be pretty flat when not under wind pressure.
I'll do some tests (after these 4 months of snow that I hope are coming).
Below some old photos of 8,5 rigged with the North 490(460)/28 and planing with Mistral Echo

http://img1.fotoalbum.virgilio.it/v/www1-1/649/64903/105418/Estate2005013-vi.jpg

http://img3.fotoalbum.virgilio.it/v/www1-5/649/64903/105418/Nicocell707024-vi.jpg

nakaniko
2nd December 2010, 09:35 PM
Another chapter. Even if I've not yet used my Serenity, I've noticed some things that I hope can be useful for the next Serenity boards of the future years (I hope so, it is a milestone board!), obviously if found interesting. If not I beg your pardon.
First: in my opinion on every board suitable for medium and long cruises could be really useful the old little towing handle placed over the tip of the hull that many boards had before 2000, like is on my Mistral Echo. For safety reason would be important for being towed, but useful also for everyday use. I mean also for Phantoms f.e.; but not the imho weird large handle of beginner boards, something nice and in style with so wonderful board.
Second: the design is really outstanding, so nice, the painting effect is somewhat reflecting. But as for all windsurf boards the antiskid was given over all the deck surface, even if I don't think i'll walk over the tip so far down there and the same over the tail, and therefore there is also the nice and wide pad where you put the feet. My girlfriend won't appreciate so much the antiskid if I'll convince her to sit on the Serenity deck and let me carrying her in romantic sailing cruises ;-))...:D
Third: fin boxes and handle box paint, black is not so stable and some black traces remain on fin head everytime i screw it down, also some little layers of black paint felt out of upper box made for screwing the fins and for drinks storage. Nothing dramathic but check it, this black seems not of the same exceptional quality of the white of all hull.
Four: don't now the reason tor the choice of us box for the tail as it's o slow to use it and always thinked not so hidrodynamic, and in a board that is based in the smartest hidrodynamic design... And as I've read in this thread about the not so huge importance of this fin, I don't think there should be noticeable differences in using the rear fin in different positions in the box, insn't it? What about a simple strong and very quick Minituttle box? For which can be found a lot of fins never so long to damage the thin stern of the board.
Last would be something about the old boring debate about tuttlebox-powerbox, yes for the main "daggerfin" of Serenity the deeptuttle box is necessary, but having to fit inside it 4 (four) fins and having to spend a lot of time for sanding and adapting each head of them to the box (except the already perfectly prepared Drake 70), like I've never had to do with 20 powerbox fins makes stronger in me the opinion that the original tuttlebox has something that should be changed and/or improved. And for all the fin heads one moment theye were too wide, after sanding away for few seconds another micron, fin head entered the box even too much; imho that's because tuttle is not conic shaped on the side walls...But pheraphs something to talk about in a separate thread.

P.s.: for the first problem, I've seen that on the Serenity Catamaran you've placed two footstraps, one on each bow, for I suppose, this exact pourbose. So adding the inserts for the same footstrap also over the "simple" Serenity could not be difficult, but surey very useful.
All the things I've written I hope they will be considered simply suggestion to improve an already wonderful board

nakaniko
8th January 2011, 04:30 AM
On the long way to spring, for little self-gift for Christmas I've bought (10 euro for a couple...) that tiny "seaweed" tail fin I've spoked some time ago, to have also in the tail a somewhat seaweed fin like on the main dagger-fin.
Yes, not the more technical fin ever seen, made of something like plastic or nylon, but nice, with some rake and with some flex in the tip. Neither the smartest shape, therefore, I had to work some time to correct the shape as both the fins of the couple were asymmetrical on the same side (so not intentional, bad moulding).

As the tail fin seems to be useful only for keeping better the direction especially going downwind (and someone even don't use it sometime), I was thinking that screwing the fin the more backward possible it would have almost the effect of the larger and squared stock fin (as wavers do for onshore conditions they say to me). And in this position an eventual strong hit can make the nut go out in the central hole, so avoiding worster finbox breackage (nut can be fixed there because the sliding grave of the nut it is made diagonally from surface to the back side of finbox)
Here the photos.

http://img1.fotoalbum.virgilio.it/v/www1-1/649/64903/105409/Nicellinv11001-vi.jpg

http://img2.fotoalbum.virgilio.it/v/www1-3/649/64903/105409/Nicellinv11004-vi.jpg

And here the advantage of keeping always screwed the rear fin with the homemade neoprene tail protector (hehehe, yes, one arm of and old shorty wetsuits, one leg became the nose protector...:))

http://img2.fotoalbum.virgilio.it/v/www1-3/649/64903/105409/Nicellinv11003-vi.jpg
(sorry for bad quality)
Also a softer fin could help in boat trasportation, absorbing inevitable hits instead of trasmitting them to the finbox...
Opinions? Suggestions? Could it work?

Unregistered
16th January 2011, 12:12 AM
nakaniko, I can't offer any advice on the Serenity I'm afraid (but offer good luck) but I am interested that you windsurf in Venice having visited in 2007 and really enjoyed the place. I remember seeing some of the water of the lagoon on ferry trips back to St Marco from the island of Murano, from St Marco across to the strip of land that has the Adriatic beach and an early evening boat ride from the centre out to the airport. Do you sail somewhere in the lagoon? or from the Adriatic beach? Anyway, good for you, and I hope you find the Serenity works out well. Regards Barker
I am sorry, that has interfered... This situation is familiar To me. It is possible to discuss.

nakaniko
16th January 2011, 05:15 AM
I don't understand what you mean.
And couriously the same statement on google gives 1.200.000 identical answer of the same phrase written everywhere.

nakaniko
25th January 2011, 08:56 PM
Stand Up Paddling on the Serenity.
Yes Serenity is narrow, but as you can see from this video from BRA3, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6skGtOXKKGk, in quiet and flat water it seems not so impossible. Therefore a board not much wider (61,5) than usual standing stance (mine on a snowboard is 53 cm) pheraphs could help one of the common problem (not so much told about) of suping, as I can read and see, the damages when scratching with the row on the sides of the board.
What about? BRA3 a pro also in paddling or we middle-heavy guys (175cm x 90kg) can have some chance too?
Anyway this starboard sup has the concave but is only 2 cm wider http://www.star-board-sup.com/2011/products/profile.php?post_name=2011_14-x-25-ace
And then what kind of setup is suggested in paddling, as far as a long centre-fin is clearly not needed?
In fact on K15/Serenity new specs (http://www.star-board.com/SpringSummer2011/products/board_serenity.php) is told that is also provided also a "SUP Pin Fin 260" (as shown on sup Starboard website (http://www.star-board-sup.com/2011/products/profile.php?post_name=2011_k-15), it seems a LARGER tail fin with us-box, so for paddling on Serenity: no central fin and the mini tail fin or larger us fin, or something else?
Last: pherhaps on the same page:
http://www.star-board.com/SpringSummer2011/products/board_serenity.php there colud be a mistake, as K15 is told to have 228 liters of volume, even if bigger sized but pheraphs because of center concave, Serenity 300 liters instead 256... But on the images 2011 Serenity seems not to be fatter or thinner, photos are exactly of the (marvellous) red and white board that I own.

Cheers from Nico from still freezing cold Venice Lagoon