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15th March 2008 07:40 PM
Unregistered
the long term real changes

Not to sound like the chiding mother but thats more like it.
I too hope their is a golden middle somewhere.
i think in 50 years maui will be more laid back then some think. And it all comes down to fossil fuels.
the writing is on the wall.
While air travel is still cheap , it will not be like this forever. The economic changes that more expensive oil will bring is such that less people will travel to maui as they simply will not be able to afford the airfare.
sound dumb?? well i dont think so.
Now one might think that the rich will still be able to go to maui. Maybe the very rich , but while everyday their are more people in the world there are less rich people and anyways the baja is closer.
it also will be more expenisive to live in maui, and if one is reliant on things shipping in from off island.
then the people of maui will have real challenges, plantations all over again and maybe real food crops will be grown.
perhaps poi back in style as a staple not a luau curiosity.

humans have a short memory. and we are lucky we live in the time that we do.
15th March 2008 09:45 AM
Unregistered Hey Dakine

My family used to stay in TVRs too. Now they stay somewhere else. Life goes on.

Think about this:

That house in Haiku could have been bought by the children of a third or fourth generation family and fixed up just as nicely. If they didn't have to compete with TVR 'investors', they could have got it cheap, too.

The third and fourth generation families bought their houses long before the real estate bubble - the houses are going into foreclosure are the ones that traded in the past few years when families had no choice but to pay inflated prices. Those prices were fueled by low interest rates and TVRs creating a huge demand in a market with limited supply.

Finally, I don't have an axe to grind - if anything, I lose when TVRs are shut down, because the market value of MY house goes down. But I think I will win in another area - I think the north shore will be a nicer place to live for my keiki if the people born and raised here with normal jobs can afford to buy a house and continue to live here.

I think that is far truer to the spirit of aloha than the short term gain of a few at the expense of many.
15th March 2008 07:59 AM
Da Kine Braddah You guys have to understand, not all locals are against the TVR. You happen to have one guy here in this forum. I would be willing to bet he isnt even born and raised on Maui. Anyways, doesnt matter. The fact is many of us support the existance of TVrs. I am in no way involved in the business but when family come to Maui, they need cheap place to stay and I cant put everyone in my place, so, the TVRs are convenient.

Many of who voted for Charmain are sorry we did so. She is not really acting with Aloha but with heavy hand. The TVR industry is an important part of the economy and with properly regulation will continue to be so. Most of us agree that instead of the heavy handed approach the mayor is taking she should have gone the route of going after the problem business that had complaints, and actively going after them. Some neighborhoods actually like have the TVRs. I know my street in Haiku used to have this place down the way that was boarded up and attracted the kids and druggies. Someone bought the place, cleaned it up nice and we never have trouble ever again. No more break ins. Good for everyone on our street.

As much as "unregistered" has an ax to grind, luckily he is in the minority. Recently the county council has gotten to the table with real solutions to the mess and are proposing changes that would allow for most of these business to open up again. There are goign to be some changes, but for the most part, all will be good to go. The changes they are proposing make sense for the long term. Going forward only the problem TVRs are going to be shutdown.

Also, 'unregistered' may not know it or not, but most of the TVRs were compliant with the state tax law and were already paying the hotel rate. Thats why you havent heard about any massive tax crack down in the mix with the county actions. The 'illegal' TVRs have been looking for regular and steamlined process for many many years. Its finally coming. Unfortunately, it may be too little too late for many families here who lived on Maui for generations if not foreva, and used TVR to keep affording to live in da place of their birth, but now are in foreclosure. Very sad day for many families here. Many people think this is all about the rich haloe coming to Maui. The majority of these places are home grown local style. Anyways. Resolution coming soon.

Peace and aloha....

Kaleo
15th March 2008 07:53 AM
Unregistered
Sorry!

Observer

If you read my earlier posts (7,12,13) I really WAS trying to have an intelligent conversation with SteveC before I allowed my frustration to get the better of me. My bad for calling him a troll, though.

I have never posted on the Maui-Windsurf Report website, but I do know that there are quite a few people within the Maui windsurf community who share my view that the county is doing the right thing. The idea that there is a lone troll promoting an anti-TVR agenda by posting on ALL the forums, writing ALL the letters to the editor etc has been flogged to death by the TVR camp.

The truth is that there are three well-reasoned dissenting voices in this thread alone on an obscure windsurfing forum. That should tell you something.
15th March 2008 06:14 AM
Unregistered
hey whats up with adult debate???

steve c i agree , and not just because i think VR whould not have been delt so heavily handed .But there is merit for doing what maui country did
But to the point of my comment, one: I think IMHO most of the "opinions" from these anon folks are just one "folk". I beleive the same "individuals" well thought out arguments can be found on old archived blog comments over at giampaolos maui-windsurf report website. The way this person uses language fits the bill.

Two: I cannot understand the mindset of a person whos well though logical reasoning slowly degrades into insults.
Unregistered, your arguments are very valid and well thought out and make sense , but why then taint them with high browed insults???
Because you disagree???
such actions just degrade the same points you have taken so much time to develope.
Even after these actions , I respect your opinions but further attacks will lead to a loss of respect for you.

observer
15th March 2008 02:40 AM
Unregistered Instead of changing the subject (again!), why not address some of the points that were raised in response to your previous posts?

Bottom line - it is always good to hear all sides of an issue. But your mindless regurgitation of the idea that an illegal business should be allowed to destroy a local community despite countless well-informed rebuttals has become really irritating.

We get it - YOU (who haven't been here since 1997 and have no clue as to the actual situation, or the demographic make up of those who wish to leave current zoning ordinances which prohibit TVRs unchanged) - are going to make an extra special effort to also not visit THIS year because you take exception to the idea that ohana, kokua and aloha are important to the people that live here.

I'm guessing Maui will manage to survive your boycott, as would this forum should you decide to take things to the next level.
14th March 2008 03:20 PM
steveC It's interesting how bold unregistered folks can be, especially since they don't want to take any real responsibility for their comments. They're kind of an anonymous voice out of the woodwork where history and ownership has no real meaning.

While some of you folks may not appreciate my point of view, and that's quite clear from some of the comments, truly a forum like this is really a opportunity to voice our opinions and thoughts. I don't always expect that we will all agree on sensitive topics like this one, but there's still good reason to comment.
14th March 2008 03:06 PM
antipost
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
...is getting busted running and illegal TVR a "criminal" offense or a "civil" offence in the USA?
Hey super, in the US, criminal law typically is prosecuted by the government, and civil law is usually prosecuted by private parties. So, to answer your question, running an illegal TVR is a criminal offense, as it is a violation of a County statute which would be enforced by the government.

Keep in mind, the US legal system distinguishes between different classes of criminal offenses. For example, the federal government generally considers a crime punishable by more than five days up to a year in jail to be a misdemeanor, while considering crimes punishable by greater than a year in prison to be felonies; crimes of five days or less in jail, or no jail at all, are considered infractions. This is in contrast to other common law jurisdictions like Canada, Australia, the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom, where crimes are divided into "summary offences" and "indictable offences." Maybe you're familiar with one of these systems? All this being said, without directly consulting the statutes, I couldn't tell you where offenses like illegal operation of a TVR and evading excise tax payments fall on the spectrum. Probably, the other poster's guesses of a misdemeanor for the former and a felony for the latter are correct.

If you're really interested in US Law, but not enough to go to law school in the US to learn all of its intricacies, I suggest that you get a hold of the Law and Order TV Series DVD box sets for a few seasons, and spend a few weeks familiarizing yourself with how it all works. At the end of it you'll be at least as qualified to practice law as most US attorneys, and you might even be ready to pass the legal bar exam. You might also find it highly enjoyable - possibly even more enjoyable than windsurfing or making random posts on internet forums. In one of the show's most interesting episodes, a reputable dentist hires a prostitute to squash bugs underfoot on the floor of his office - this happens to be an established sexual fetish known as giantessophilism; its adherents, whose mannerisms and conduct bear a striking resemblance to those of poster SteveC, are known as "crush freaks." He compensates her with free dental work. Legal complications ensue, after his assistant is mysteriously murdered in an adjoining office...

Just in case you'd like to be even more mystified on the not-so-fine points of US law, consider this: in the mid-1990s, renowned former American Football player and celebrity OJ Simpson was acquitted of the murder of his wife in criminal court, and found guilty and liable in civil court. America, love it, or leave it.
14th March 2008 04:05 AM
Unregistered Hey, does Pontificators Anonymous have a Santa Barbara chapter? Serious question - if someone from SB was feelin' all 'ponty', who would they turn to?
14th March 2008 03:01 AM
Unregistered HI STEVEC

YOU RAISE AN INTERESTING POINT: ARE YOU A WILLFULLY OBTUSE TROLL, OR AN IMBECILE? I TRUTHFULLY DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER TO THAT - HOWEVER, I CAN EASILY REBUT ALL OF YOUR 'POINTS':

From my perspective it's a local versus visitor decision factor. With the constrictions that growth might involve, at least in my opinion, the county government has decided to limit growth on the Northshore for visitor use in favor of the chance that owners will rent to locals at a much reduced income overall, irrespective of this creation of an "illegal" environment. It must be remembered that the county looked the other way for some time, and that's truly sad overall.

THE COUNTY IS CRACKING DOWN ON ILLEGAL BUSINESS PRACTICES. THERE IS SO MUCH LEGAL GROWTH ON THE NORTHSHORE (OVER 10,000 NEW HOUSES IN THE LAST 10 YEARS) THAT THE IDEA THE COUNTY IS 'LIMITING GROWTH' IS LAUGHABLE.

While there might be an argument for giving so called locals an advantage in the future, I wonder whether that makes sense from a long term perspective. Locals which do not have financial strength to stand on the top of the game would love to live in the best spot on Maui for a song, but the windsurfing and kiting markets are clearly putting pressure on that. Visitors are beginning to understand the special advantages that the Northshore offers (unquestioned from a knowledgable point of view), unfortunately, to the downside of the local low income residents.

SO THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE AND WORK IN HAIKU SHOULD BE FORCED OUT BY AN ILLEGAL BUSINESS. RIGHT.

It's kind of that capitalistic force and direction that can be found in free a society, and it truly works to limit the opportunities of those at the bottom of the income ladder, especially if it was a previous stronghold for the poor. Living in Santa Barbara, I readily understand the consequences in this type of situation. But in a free market, the forces can undermine those with little strength and financial holdings, and this advantages those with greater strength, vision and capability. Therein lies the dilemma here.

DUDE, IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE A 'FREE MARKET'. ALL WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS SHUTTING DOWN AN ILLEGAL BUSINESS.

Is the county government up for the real future? Unhappily, I don't think so. Yet, these limited horizon folks were elected by the residents of Maui, and that has meaning overall, at least to confuse reality. However, can the will of the locals win over the future of a vacation focused Maui, only time will tell.

HMMM, SO YOU THINK THE RESIDENTS OF MAUI SHOULD'NT BE ALLOWED TO ELECT GOVERNMENT THAT THEY FEEL REPRESENTS THEIR INTERESTS? SAY, HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF DEMOCRACY? IT'S PART OF THAT 'FREE SOCIETY' YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT.

DAMN, STEVEC, THIS IS A NEW LOW, EVEN FOR YOU!
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