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23rd September 2008 07:47 PM
Unregistered This is by far the most interesting topic I have read in ages. I really do hope the longboard makes a return to the Olympics. It was so much more exciting when everyone had the IMCO, it was good for everything and it plains. I am really disapointed with the whole formula thing, no soul.
4th September 2008 04:34 AM
Unregistered
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricko View Post
I will say this again.....If you want to race in 0-25 Knots plenty of tactics and no pumping needed, bring back the Division 1 board MISTRAL SUPERLIGHT length 380cm width 68cm volume 260 liters WEIGHT 16 kgs it had a 6.3m2 sail and thats all it needed, ofcourse you could modenise the sail if you like. I would be more than happy to race again with this board. If anyone wants a photo I can send you one.
me to. Bring back the superlight!
1st September 2008 01:14 PM
Unregistered
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Formula would be nice, but this is the issue

Final day - event reports
16:06 | I am afraid that is it for this event - we do not have time to validate these championships. The prize giving will go ahead - but no european titles this year. The organisers have done everything expected of them ; unfortunately this championship will be remembered for lack of wind.


Longboards with 10.5/9.0 sail selection can cover all winds
very true.

although you can run formula racing in sub planing; it just totally sucks. Formula organisers insist on it being a minimum of (if I recall) 6 knots min wind speed average of 8 or something like that, with consistent wind direction.

In fact, I've raced boats where we could have protested the race committee when the wind swung so far that the upwind legs were layable in one hit; so it isn't only wind strength but also direction, and direction affects all classes.

The 49ers and Tornados claim I think a minimum wind strength of 6 knots to start, but they can race in less. The formula guys if they are serious about wanting olympic selection, need to prove that the class can still somehow drift around the course in sub 6. It is going to occur on some days for sure.
1st September 2008 06:19 AM
Unregistered Formula would be nice, but this is the issue

Final day - event reports
16:06 | I am afraid that is it for this event - we do not have time to validate these championships. The prize giving will go ahead - but no european titles this year. The organisers have done everything expected of them ; unfortunately this championship will be remembered for lack of wind.


Longboards with 10.5/9.0 sail selection can cover all winds
31st August 2008 05:19 PM
Unregistered kona numbers my source is the factory that makes them, but they would not be able to give much information other than the question whether in fact it is the biggest selling board as of now. The Futura or Go would probably have that title - multiple models of course.

Biggest selling model perhaps, still think that is possible. And let's not sell the board short, it is frigging awesome no matter what the sales.

Chris - there are a lot of rules in play now in windsurfing where you can plow into marks, pumping ok etc that make it decidely less tactical than boat rules coming into marks and fewer kinetics would be (which windsurfing used to have); it is the hardest event, IMHO to win at the olympics, but right now, I agree with your assessment that the boat speeds aren't equal; that stems from the massive importance of pumping strength and atheleticism. That may explain why the Chinese (with relatively less sailing/tactical knowledge) have jumped into this class so successfully, yet been relatively a lot less successful in the other classes.

I am not saying there is more tactics in a downwind planer, perhaps I was a bit too knee jerk. But to think they have no tactics (the usual DDW line which I hear every single time I go out sailing, and which I am sure almost every high performance sailing sailor has heard if they front up with a skiff, planing board, or otherwise) is not disimilar to the lines levelled at windsurfing by non windsurfers - 'it is just air rowing, there aren't much tactics are there?' and so on. If that is why people choose or don't choose a class......at least the facts should be right.

My crew is 9th at the Hobie worlds, SEA champion, Asian games champion in Hobie 16s, 420s, 470s, tactician on a farr 40 and also has won the Platus here and more recently with me, sportboats in some of our regattas.

He doesn't think the slower boats are less tactical. He also doesnt' think they are more tactical. He certainly does point out specific angles though; especially downwind split gybes where a planer/cat or similar can make or break; upwind where the cost of each tack is so much more in the Hobie than the 420. he also doesn't think that dinghies are less tactical than keelers for the most part, despite the massive information advantage they have on a keeler.

All this of course, you well know, and I think we can put to rest that a board should be selected or not selected on the basis of 'that one is tactical, this one is not' unless we start to bring in significant kinetics, at which point tactics will start to come second to kinetics generating ability, which I think is a problem (note many others do not, and love the pump fest).
30th August 2008 05:57 PM
fran4065 C249:
Fran, in the normal variable conditions how would you choose where to put the fin? The rails are low aspect and therefore inherently not efficient in terms of preventing leeway, aren't they?

Cats can have very deep, narrow shapes and a cat without boards cannot compete with a cat with boards.

You may be right C249, what about a "sabre" daggerboard with a simple dagerboard hole: light and much more easy to built than the large ones...
...Maybe dangerous to have the daggerboard half out on the deck, or on the arm when speeding more than 30 knots!
30th August 2008 03:21 PM
C249 Sorry, the bit about the last Olympics was meant to say "as the last Olympics in the Tornado cat (which tacks downwind at about 90 degrees) proved....
30th August 2008 03:19 PM
C249 It's crap to say that there's no tactics in gybing downwind; it's also wrong IMHO to say there's no tactics in boat that perform best DDW. Whether it's a board or cat in strong winds when you're gybing through 90, or a Laser running DDW in light, it's intensely tactical...maybe more in the latter case IMHO because the fleet tends to be more packed. In something like a Laser fleet you are going up and down to intercept each puff, rolling away or heating up or going BTL for best VMG, while working leverage and angles over your competitors, intensely trying to synchronise puffs and the angle and size of waves for surfing opportunities, and trying to anticipate the mark rounding. Since it's common to go around overlapped with several other competitors, even 5cm is vital.

Sure, some people go from DDW classes to faster boats and say there's more tactics - but isn't that because they already know the DDW tactics from years of experience and then find there's a whole new box of tricks to learn? But the new box of tricks is not any harder than the old box of tricks....as the last Olympics proved (ex laser sailors 1st and 3rd) you can go from a DDW class to a tacking-downwind class, but skiff champs do poorly in Lasers, indicating that it's not dead easy to go the other way.

Some of the stuff I sail goes from DDW in the light to gybing through about 70 to 80 in the breeze. IMHo there's no difference in the importance of tactics.

"Are any windsurfers truly tactical other than slalom racing? (I don't know the answer, and hope someone can answer)."

It seems to me that non-pumping longboards can be truly tactical, in the style of Etchells or Lasers, but in the boats most of the fleet is pretty much competitive in speed and handling whereas in the boards only a minority are as competitive in speed and handling. Therefore in boards there are therefore fewer competitors who you have a real tactical battle with IMHO; most of them you can just speed away from. So it's less tactical overall. God knows why that's a problem; the ability to get more straight-line speed (a skill fast gear tests more) is just as important IMHO (and I'm not much good at it).

In big winds or on faster boards, in my experience, the boards are distinctly less tactical. Others may disagree but how many of them have good records in slow gear? If they cannot win on slow gear, then how do they know the tactics needed in slow gear and therefore how can they compare the two?


Fran, in the normal variable conditions how would you choose where to put the fin? The rails are low aspect and therefore inherently not efficient in terms of preventing leeway, aren't they?

Cats can have very deep, narrow shapes and a cat without boards cannot compete with a cat with boards.

Modern sails with a wide wind range are twice as heavy as original sails. We happily accept doubling the weight for more adjustability in our sails, so accepting a 20% increase in weight for a 100% adjustability in CB size looks okay by comparison. The production costs are, of course, a problem, but then modern fast boards are hard to produce cheaply too.

About the Kona numbers - are people going on opinion or fact? If it's fact, care to share?
30th August 2008 11:38 AM
PG Clarification: "The only way the Kona could be the biggest selling model is that they haven't changed the model year on year for 3 years now, and there is really only one model of board. by that criteria, the WOD and the IMCO are probably bigger sellers than the Kona."

The claim was of course ANNUALLY.

I believe it is pretty much impossible today to reach the sales figures of yesteryear, and thus become the best selling board ever. The market back then was some 400% bigger!

But the sales numbers are irrelevant when it comes to picking the next Olympic board...
30th August 2008 06:09 AM
Ricko I will say this again.....If you want to race in 0-25 Knots plenty of tactics and no pumping needed, bring back the Division 1 board MISTRAL SUPERLIGHT length 380cm width 68cm volume 260 liters WEIGHT 16 kgs it had a 6.3m2 sail and thats all it needed, ofcourse you could modenise the sail if you like. I would be more than happy to race again with this board. If anyone wants a photo I can send you one.
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