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7th January 2009 09:11 AM
steveC Well Dan, a very insightful and informative post. Although I'm not a FW sailor, I can follow what you're saying, and I tend to agree. In my view, the importance of the complete kit as a whole, and what's designed to do best, is paramount in the performance outcome.
7th January 2009 08:57 AM
Ken Poster #64 nailed it on the head.

Slalom boards will never beat a formula board upwind, in any conditions (1 knot to 40 knots), assuming both boards had the appropriate sail size. In sub-planing conditions (I have raced formula like this a few time in local club races) formula will slog upwind better than any slalom board (70 cm fin & volume makes the difference).

Formula boards will plane quicker than slalom boards so once there is 6-8 knots of wind, a formula board will plane with a 12.5 m sail and can point a little upwind. A slalom board will still be slogging. At about 10 knots, both could be planing, but the formula will point significantly higher with as much or more speed. As the wind picks up, the slalom board may close the difference a bit, but it will never match the formula board. As poster 64 says -

"I've never found sailing upwind to be a problem for FW gear -even in totally overpowered conditions. That's not the case for more narrow tailed boards which tend to bog down, spin out or blow up when sailing way overpowered upwind."

Top formula sailors can handle 9 & 10 meter sails in 30 knots (upwind and downwind). Put them on a 6.5 or 7.5 and they probably could go up to 35+ knots if the water was somewhat protected without huge chop. Upwind doesn't matter much, but running downwind can be pretty wild in rough water in 30 knots of wind.
7th January 2009 06:58 AM
Unregistered If a planing board is sailing as high as possible, it sails on the very edge of planing. In other words, sail the board higher and the board slows and falls off a plane. In the same way, by sailing into a lull, the apparent wind swings forward for a moment as the speed over the water is at a higher ratio than the wind speed from a moment earlier. This is the very same thing as heading up. So the board must head down to compensate. In the next moment (and this is what most everyone feels) the pressure in the sail drops and the board slows. A slower board means that it cannot point as high, so the sailor foots to keep speed up and pressure in the rig by keeping apparent wind high.

Back to the slalom/FW comparison: A slalom board can sail, say, 40 degrees to the true wind while a FW board can sail 30 degrees to the true wind. When the slalom board is sailing at its highest angle the FW is not even close to its highest angle. The lull, therefore, forces the slalom board down while the FW board keeps trucking at the same angle. Remember, lulls act as headers while gusts act as lifts.

I'm not certain about the question about no lulls at 20 knots. All wind has lulls and their existence has virtually nothing to do with average wind speed. On the other hand, if each board is tuned for 20 knots, the slalom board clearly has less range on the low end than FW kit if for no other reason than the high power of the FW board's tail and fin.

Whether you bear off to keep control or head up really depends on what angle you are sailing. Bearing off is the way to go if you are heading downwind anyway. Certainly on FW kit, heading up increases apparent wind speed and tends to force the board into a wicked round up since FW gear comes with huge "weather helm" by design. If you are heading upwind, bearing off not only points you in the wrong direction but radically increases power in the sail since turning down exposes the sail more directly to the wind. This effect is why beginner FW racers have a hard time bearing off around the windward mark.

The width of a FW board's tail always helps control upwind as long as the fin and sail size matches the wind speed. I've raced both slalom (not the new wide-board slalom racing, though), course-slalom boards and FW. I've never found sailing upwind to be a problem for FW gear -even in totally overpowered conditions. That's not the case for more narrow tailed boards which tend to bog down, spin out or blow up when sailing way overpowered upwind. Again, the harder part in FW sailing is sailing wickedly overpowered across the wind or downwind.

-Dan
7th January 2009 04:08 AM
Unregistered Thought you beared away in gusts to stay with it and headed up in lulls to increase apparent wind !
Besides think he meant question was posed assuming 20knots +.Introducing lulls obviously leans towards Formula ;but that wasn`t question.. !!!
Big Isonics;Exocet Slaloms;JP super slaloms are just small Formula anyway so cant see sense in argument .
There must be a point where Slaloms beat Formulas upwind its just a matter of in what wind.At some point width of Forrmula has to work against it.Not sure when though ?
7th January 2009 03:28 AM
Ken Unregistered,

Not sure what you mean?

All boats/boards will typically foot off in a lull to maintain speed, then head up again in the gusts if sailing upwind. Just the opposite if running down wind.
7th January 2009 03:15 AM
Unregistered And what lulls in 20knots + ???
7th January 2009 03:14 AM
Unregistered Except at 90 degrees to wind or in really rough conditions or ... or...
Amazing how racers put their own spin on things to make point.

Point was (and is) VMG is relative to type of sailing.
7th January 2009 02:20 AM
Unregistered
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd View Post
Actually Unregisterd (both of you) VMG has nothing top do with windward marks.
Its purely and simply the velocity made good taking into account leeway;tide; water flow (or whatever)in the DESIRED direction.

Slalom boards have fantastic VMG; even upwind when everything is taken into account.
It is relative; even a humble low volume waveboard in rough/big wave conditions can easily have the best VMG.ie its only one sailing !!!

Yes Formula in some conditions has best VMG in SOME directions. (never all )
Slalom in 20 knots may well have better OVERALLL VMG even to a winward mark.(Isonic 144 versus Formula in 25 mph ???)I wouldn`t like to decide.Suspect it would be down to sailor.

Speedboards on their day have best VMG to end of speed course.the DESIRED direction. There is a tendency in sailig for disciplines to hijack phrases thinking they are there own.This is one of them. VMG is a generic sailing (and flying;canoeing;walkingetc ) term.

Think we need some wind !!!
Floyd: Respectfully, umm, no. At least not when people are talking about VMG in a racing situation. For example, when two boats are racing in proximity to each other each may not be sailing in a way that takes them to the mark in the shortest time. Covering a competitor is one example of this, but the time must come when the boat ahead breaks cover. In sailboat racing vernacular, this decision is communicated to the crew with the command "Go VMG."

It's certainly true (as you point out) that VMG by definition applies to every boat/board individually at any time, in any direction. But the point of debate is not whether two types of boards have different VMGs when sailing at divergent angles, but whether one board type has a better VMG when each are sailing at the SAME angle. So the question about whether a slalom board has a better VMG than a FW board can only be answered in a common-sense way. That is, since the slalom board cannot sail as high as a FW board, does the FW board have a better VMG at the angle limits of the slalom board. The answer is a resounding "YES" because the basic speed edge of the slalom board dissolves at the the limits of its tacking angles. FW kit will go faster over time and be able to maintain its sailing angle whereas the slalom board will need to foot in the lulls. Thus, the FW board has better VMG.

-Dan
5th January 2009 03:14 PM
Unregistered most of freeriders have an oppinion that their TOW has more value and quality comparing to Formula. often they fail at first attempt to lift formula sail off the water because of weak back. but they are majority and they enjoy feeling themselves members of majority tribe. they don't enjoy sailing they enjoy being not worse than others in their tribe
I sail formula or wave depending on water conditions.
5th January 2009 06:33 AM
Unregistered Yep; Wikipedia says
"VMG is velocity of board in desired direction" but then goes on and on and on.....
Nice one Ken
For what its worth I went out on mountain bike today.Hot and sunny.
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