|25th February 2010 09:06 AM|
|eric b 125||
Oh, i'm still here, for sure. i'm thinking about what everyone had to say, and i think what it really boils down to is having more experience. i still have a lot to learn, and i'm not so sure i'd really notice a difference at this point in a little extra outhaul or not. when the season rolls around, i'll rig as the guide says to, and i'll play with it. i like the idea of keeping a record of my settings and conditions. maybe the balance in the sail is more important for me than trying to get more out of it?
on a side note... i hear a lot of talk about NP sails, and SW, but little about gaastra. do they make good sails? the sail i was using prior to getting new equipment was a gaastra, and when i was a kid everyone at the lake was rocking gaastra. i dont really see as much anymore. is the company 'falling-off'?
|24th February 2010 11:26 PM|
Are you still with us, Eric?
Take a pair of twins of equal ability, using their biggest Sailworks sail. The brother who follows the guidelines you read will be able to plane at a lower wind speed than the brother who always sets his downhaul at maximum recommended. The sails have a good range adjusting only the outhaul, but I don't think anyone can really argue that you don't get more range when using the full downhaul and outhaul adjustment ranges.
|24th February 2010 06:02 PM|
I can't agree more, Norm.
There are too many parameters involved, in proper rigging.
It would be dull anyway, if there was only 1 perfect setting, that needed to fit for everyone, wouldn't it.
|24th February 2010 05:17 PM|
About 9 years ago I worked in Thailand for a year. I thought it would be a good opportunity to finally replace my late eighties Bic Hard Rock and rig of unknown manufacturer. I got a good deal and ended up with two new boards and four sails, type NP V8 - 6, 7 and 9 sqm and a NP SuperNova - 5,5 sqm. (The SuperNova will not be mentioned again as it probably is the worst sail ever made)
The first time I tried the new gear, rigged the 7 m, and followed the instructions exactly. Had no fun at all. I could not get speed I expected, I was thrown off all the time and were utterly exhausted in less than an hour. The whole session ended up with me calling a friend to collect me a few kilometres down the coast, I could not sail high enough to get back to where I started.
This episode made me realise a few things – a work out every now and then during off season does not hurt, a 7 year sailing break makes you lose some of your touch and of course; it takes time to learn your new equipment.
My trick was to buy apply some stationeries: A ruler, a pen and a small notebook. After every session, I measured the distance between the mast foot and the sail, the outhaul, boom location, harness straps location and length and mast foot placement. In addition I noted conditions, especially wind and waves. Finally, I wrote down how I felt these settings worked and ideas to be tried out next time. Although it made me feel “geeky”, it worked. During that season I learned how to optimise the trim of my gear to fit my sailing style and current conditions.
Nothing wrong with manufacturers recommendation – its a good starting point, but they does not tell you in what wind and wave conditions they will work, nor are they adapted to your preferred boom height, board type, style of sailing, etc.
I guess my recommendation is to listen to your peers, but make up your own mind as you gain experience.
|24th February 2010 04:52 AM|
It was me that said that many pro's don't change their downhaul setting. The was a person who said that you would need many sails then.
I use 9.8 from 4-7m/s. 8 from 7-10 and 5.8 until about 15 m/s and i very rarely adjust my downhaul. So i can sail from 4-15 m/s with 2 boards and 3 sails only adjusting my outhaul.
I don't understand the "rig as small as you can" thing. Not unless you jump and do tricks. Better to be well powered up with good control and the power low in the sail.
|23rd February 2010 10:46 PM|
|Farlo||For over 10 years I've been rigging my sails to max recommended downhaul, adjusting outhaul by only one/two increments. This gives massive wind range already. Every time I tried releasing downhaul (then outhaul) towards min recommended settings to get more low end power, I found the sail much less efficient whatever rigging instructions may say. I agree this is personal preference, valid only for a reduced set of sails/masts. This was less the case with older designs from mid 90's when you could play a lot more with downhaul, but I'm not sure wind range was any bigger. You just use more sqm now.|
|23rd February 2010 05:15 PM|
does SB use SW exclusively in their testing ?
and if so, shouldn't SB clients also purchase SW ?
and what kinda issues could you have with productions SW sails ???
|23rd February 2010 10:56 AM|
Lanee and Ken,
Tom (vikingsail) knows alot about rigging sails. That's why we invited him to become a member of the east coast Sailworks/Starboard demo team.
Tom and Johan rig the sails, I critique their rigging (we use alot of 100% carbon masts in our demos because they are lighter and make the sails rig and perform better).
Then one of us usually tries a few of the rigs out.
When we are pretty sure we have them rigged as Bruce P. designed them, we turn them loose to the demo customers.
If we have any issues with a particular sail or mast, we often call the Sailworks loft for guidance from the guy who designs them, or the guys who actually sew up and test all the prototypes.
When in doubt, we take photos and email them to the loft for their analysis.
If a customer takes one of our demo rigs out and does not feel it performs correctly then we will for sure take that rig out on the water (on the same Starboard if possible) and see what's up, so we can determine if we can somehow adjust the rigging to make it better.
Interesting discussion here.
I vote with Lanee, Tom, and Ken... rig it the way the designer intended, on the recommended "best" mast, and you are almost guaranteed to get the best performance.
If you want the sail to do something else or want to use it out of it's intended design range, you can do that as well, but starting with the basics (per the design lofts rigging instructions) is absolutely the best place to start.
If the design loft for your particular sail does not give you good rigging guides and instructions, maybe think about changing lofts?
|23rd February 2010 08:14 AM|
I just saw Viking's new posts. He's probably in a tough position, a position of authority. Folks who ask him for rigging advice probably aren't willing to accept 'I don't know' or 'I'm not sure' as answers. So, he has to make generalizations. If he's off, folks will be stuck rigging that sail the way he told them forever, probably scarring them for life.
His general advice has some holes in it. That starting point of no looseness in the leech as a minimum setting isn't true for most modern sails. Also, his suggestion of 4 cm of range for the downhaul is a generalization. I took a quick look at 2 of my sails and the downhaul range on them was 5 cm and 2 cm. (The 2 cm was on an Ezzy!)
Eric, you'll be better prepared so that you don't have to ask someone on the beach.
Viking, being in your position, it might be good to suggest that, at the end of the day, they go home and check their rigging guide. That would probably be better for them in the long run. Again, you're in a tough position. When they check, they may find out that you gave them bad advice.
|23rd February 2010 06:33 AM|
For some reason, I can't open it. But hopefully, Eric, Gaastra will give you some good guidance on adjustment limits on your sails. (And then, start shipping it with their sails, and add it to their website.)
Most modern sails, for example, the Sailworks sails for which you've seen the rigging guide, have TONS of wind range. I made a comment earlier in the thread, to one of Joe's comments about 'personal preference' that wasn't very constructive. But there IS personnal preference within manufacturer rigging limits.
The first thing is that, since alot of these sails have such large wind ranges, you may actually have to choose between rigging a bigger sail flat (at the upper range of downhaul/outhaul) or a smaller size full (at the lower end of downhaul/outhaul). The flat, bigger sail, and I'm not sure about this, will probably have a lower center of effort, be more stable, and have a higher top end speed, but, being bigger, will be more difficult to handle in transitions.
Here's another personal preference issue. I prefer to keep money in my pocket. Earlier, someone mentioned that they thought professional sailors only used one setting, the optimum setting. If you always want to be at optimum settings, you, like the pro's, will have to own lots of different sails.
One more personal preference issue, again, while staying within specs. On most modern, highly tuneable sails, you'll develop a preference based on what type of sailing you want to do that day, or what kind of feel you want. If identical twins were out sailing on the exact same equipment, one may rig his sail flat if he wants max gps speed or a stable feeling that comes with the resulting low center of effort. The other may rig the sail at the fuller limits because he prefers to stay powered through lulls, improve power out of transitions, or maximize hang time when jumping. Of course, his sail will be more twitchy due to its higher center of effort.
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