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28th July 2010 09:24 PM
Ken Remi,

The Equipe II XR was made exclusively for open class course racing and was one of the best boards available. As the development of the "course slalom" boards increased (pre-formula boards), the Equipe fell out of favor since the course slalom boards were much faster downwind (we are talking planing conditions). The Equipes were still better upwind, but as the formula boards came out, the longboards were made obsolete since they now had wind minimums to accommodate the formula boards and the longboards couldn't keep up upwind or downwind.

I hope you do not think I am picking only on the Phantom. I think the race board concept is a great idea, and meets the needs of many sailors. It is a great idea to have one board that can race regardless of the wind conditions. If there was enough racing in my area to justify buying one, I would likely have one to race either in a raceboad or open class.

However, with only 3-5 regattas a year, it doesn't make sense for me. In the last two years (8 regattas), we had winds to 25 knots in 6 of them. Mostly formula and slalom racers participating. When freeriding, I would rather be on a formula or slalom board if there is more than 8 knots. Under 8 knots, I play golf.

I wonder why so much volume is needed with 70cm wide boards, especially the Phantom 380? I guess it is just a by product of the extra length.

In what conditions does each board excel? Why does one choose a 320 over the 380 or 380 over the 320?
28th July 2010 07:07 AM
Remi Hi All,

I think is really not fare to compare a Tufskin Phantom Race 320 of 260 liters to compare to a full Carbon Mistral Equip II who was 250 liters. I never sail the Equipe II in XR and never see it, but the Equipe I XR (same shape as the IMCO) yes who was 220 liters and need 400g to be class legal.
The Phantom Race 380 is 303 liters so much more than any of this Race-Board. The most closer board to this one was the Van Den Berg board 260 liters, I use in 95 and need to add 1 kgs to be class legal (16Kgs).
The Fanatic Mega Cat (250 liters) need 400/500 g to be class legal but very fragile, I broke 7 in one year.
Hope this help to show the differnce.

All the best
28th July 2010 02:02 AM
Ken C249,

I raced an Equipe II XR for several years and I am not sure of it's weight but I think they were around 12-13kg. However, I have picked up a Phantom 320 and it seemed a lot heavier than the old Equipe.

I think they can make raceboards lighter, but for some reason they don't - Durability, cost?. My Equipe never had a durability issue except for the centerboard gasket.
27th July 2010 06:29 PM
C249 "I bought a Pan Am 27 years ago so the 10 year argument is more like 27 years".

That was a very different Pan Am, as I'm sure you know. In most conditions the Pan Am that won the worlds would, of course, eat the 27 year old Pan Am alive.

In BIG breeze or upwind in very light wind the old Pan Am may have a chance. I own one of Robby's 1982 prototypes that lead to the first Pan Am; I haven't used it for years but may bring it out in a couple of months for some speed testing against my Equipe II.

Ken, I don't think people can actually make a longboard much lighter and at a practical, economical weight. Okay, they weigh 18kg. A kilo or more would be in the centreboard case and rubbers, one kilo or more in the extra straps, a kilo or two in the mast track, a couple of kilos would go in the fact that the Raceboard is much longer and the simple basic geometry means it weighs more for its volume.

Inherently, it's not going to be super light. And given that a couple of kilos only makes a tiny difference in performance, maybe it's worthwhile making gear more durable and cheaper.
1st July 2010 08:14 PM
Deja Vu I bought a Pan Am 27 years ago so the 10 year argument is more like 27 years. That was a good board then and since boards and sails (according to manufacturers and magazines) get faster and better every year our new equipment should be on a totally different level - it isn't! It is certainly better, but not nearly as much as you'd think if you read the promotions each year for the last 27 years like I have! Those that think a 10 year old GO board with the right rig, fin and sailor couldn't be competitive with a new formula board might be surprised at just how competitive it would be. If you want to sell product you have to market it and to do that each year you need to convince potential consumers, not only that it is better than the competitions' product, but also that it is better than your product from last year.
26th June 2010 02:16 AM
Ken Unregistered,

I guess you are not a formula fan. Fine with me, but I like to go fast on ALL points of sail in 10-15 knot winds and a formula board meets my needs for light wind free sailing.

My point was that there are many boards that are designed as no-compromise boards for a specific type of sailing. They are simply the best at what they do.

Formula - upwind and downwind speed in over 10 knots
wave boards - You name it, they do it on a wave.
speed boards - top speeds
slalom boards - speed, jibing, acceleration
freestyle boards - jumps and tricks
longboards or Div II type boards - light wind speed in less than 10 knots

Then you have race boards (hybrids) that can't beat anything above at their game. They don't excel at anything, but do many things pretty well.

We all have our needs and desires, mostly based upon where we sail. Raceboards have their fans, but I am not one of them at the moment. One day I may change my mind.
25th June 2010 08:10 PM
symon260z In a breeze an Equipe II XR is a wonderful thing, upwind, downwind. I have great memories of mine. But all in racing is a compromise and it would seem that a Phantom 380 wins most of the time.
I canīt wait for my Phantom to be delivered :-)
25th June 2010 06:52 PM
Unregistered in a breeze reaching broad my old equipe is quite a fast board... haven't ridden a formula or rs:x but from what I see of them on the water they don't reach in gusts very well. did I mention that an old equipe reaches broadly like no other? well it does...
25th June 2010 03:27 PM
Unregistered everything is a compromise.
There is no such thing as no compromise.
The formula board has huge compromises.

To list a few-
large fin for going upwind means reaching in strong winds compromised. so upwind downwind courses needed. compromise also fixed 70cm fin makes it difficult to launch and sail in many locations. compromise. also means wide boards needed to hold down fin which leads to-

wide board hideously affected by chop which means cant foot off for speed and have to point high and use a correspondingly large fin instead(narrower board smaller fin would be quicker in more wind). compromise

planing performance optimised at expense of non planing perfomance. compromise.

big fat wide board needs large sail to work hence creating barrier to entry of less skilled sailors and hence minimal participation. Compromise

plenty more to.................

All classes have compromises, the most succesful ones in windsurfing have chosen to make the compromises in the interests of mass participation.

another point is the relative performance of old and new designs.
Back in the day there used to be intensive mass participation in longboard windsurf racing. In this environment the designs got very good. Nowadays there is only one manufacturer of raceboards, and they have none of the expertise of the old raceboard crew. Simply with the current absence of rules in the class there is no excuse for the phantom not completely destroying the old raceboards, the fact that they dont tells you a lot about the skills of the phantom design team or maybe they deliberately made it slow so as not to make the old boards obsolete- yea right! :-)
23rd June 2010 10:18 PM
Ken Raceboards are just a compromise. They do nothing exceptionally well, but do everything well. Formula kicks butt in winds over 10 knots and long boards kick butt under 10 knots.

I have been burned more than one time racing in Open class when I didn't make the right choice between my long board and my formula board. Raceboards don't have to make that decision, they do fine in all conditions.

Will I ever buy one? Can't say just yet, but they are all too heavy in my opinion. If you make a race board, make it light.
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