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2nd August 2012 06:15 PM
ittiandro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
Ittiandro,
I said I was pretty sure, but added the caveat that I wold need to know when your 75% Viper mast was made.
In the 90's, I sailed all top of the line North sails and masts. The North "version" of a "constant curve mast was a bit soft in the top. Almost a flex top. If your North Viper mast is significantly newer, it may truly be a 460 75% North Viper that meets the IMCS 24-26 spec.

Roger
I wish first to thank you for the wealth of professional observations you provided on the mast/sail compatibility issue. All I can tell about my previous Viper mast is that it must have been more than 5 years old since I bought it 2nd hand about 6 or 7 years ago. There are no other descriptive details on it except 25 cc ( ICMS ) and the term " Xcellerator technology".Perhaps it was leaning towards " soft top" characteristics, but It didn't seem to perform too bad, really, with the sails I have. But maybe I am still a bit too....raw to perceive certain subtle differences. I'll soon test the Gun( Advantage) mast. Not many people seemed to be able to comment on it . All I was able to find out is that it is a " constant curve", so I took a chance and bought it, since the price was extremely good for a brand new mast, still in its plastic wrapper and, also because I believe it is German made. As compared to the Viper, the Gun mast seems to be better finished. The texture is very smooth and uniform, unlike the Viper, which had a tendency to fray a bit and give off a black dust on contact.

Thank you again

Ittiandro
1st August 2012 04:48 AM
Roger Ittiandro,
I said I was pretty sure, but added the caveat that I wold need to know when your 75% Viper mast was made.
In the 90's, I sailed all top of the line North sails and masts. The North "version" of a "constant curve mast was a bit soft in the top. Almost a flex top. If your North Viper mast is significantly newer, it may truly be a 460 75% North Viper that meets the IMCS 24-26 spec.
When I switched to Sailworks sails, the North masts didn't work very well as they were not truly
"Constant curve".
I do feel that even a beginner to intemediate sailing skill level, you will impede your progress and reduce your overall fun factor with a mast that not very similar to the mast the sail was designed on.
What are the performance factors that even beginners will notice:
1/ If the mast is too stiff for the sail (this happens when you use a 460 mast in a sail designed for a 430 mast and you just extend the head strap) you end up with a sail that doesn't rotate well, does not twist off in gusts the way it was designed, and you end up pulling alot of the power and stability designed into the sail out of it when you downhaul it as the middle flattens out due to excessive downhaul.
So the sail is gutless, does not rotate well, does not twist off well, and seems pretty unbalanced and "twitchy".
2/ Conversely, if you use a mast that is too soft in bend ratio, the top of the sail twist off way too soon, the middle of the sail battens never pull back as they were designed to do, so the sail does not rotate well at all. Also you will not get the depth down low or much stability.
Can you sail with an incompatible mast? Absolutely, but if you ever get to rig that sail or have someone who reall knows the sail rig it on the correct "best" mast, the whole rig will come alive, every thing will rotate smoothly and with very little effort. The sail will feel very nicely balanced, and have a far greater range of use.
3/ No, there are probably no real "safety concerns beyond the minor potential for you to stress the mast in some manner that causes it to break.
4/ Speed will be better (because the foil will be correctly proportioned and positioned in the sail,plus with good balance you will feel more comfortable and confident that the sail is going to support you so you "go for it" because a correctly tuned sail is an aboslute joy to sail.
5/ Maneuverabilty....if you mean the way the sail handles in transitions (tacks/jibes/jumps, yes a well tuned sail on a truly compatible mast does all types of maneuvers effortlessly.
6/ Planing capability.... Unless the mast is compatable, you won't get the depth of foil down low that will get you planing quickly. Also, if you are "tuning around" a mast compatabiity issue, you won't be able to tune the sail really as full as it was designed to go (less downhaul and less outhaul usuallly) to get the absolute best low end power from it .
Hope this helps,
Roger
31st July 2012 02:06 PM
ittiandro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
for me Gaastra is what they call `hard top` and Ezzy is `constant curve`
so, would the same mast even do `great` on both sails ??

Ezzy always says their sails work with ANY mast - what`s that all about ??

over time - have learned - put suggested/recommended mast with your favourite sails !!
As I said in my original posting, I am really not an advanced sailor,( probably an intermediate one) and, for all the nice and undoubtedly true, " by the book ' suggestions for optimal performance which I am being offered by experts , I believe the difference between using a " compatible" mast and an "incompatible" one with a given sail is too subtle to be appreciated by anybody who is not a real pro. If my Gaastra Pilot was incompatible, as Roger suspects ( and it might well be true), with the 75% Viper mast I had been using for 6 years before it broke, the bottom line is that it was quite satisfactory to me and it never prevented me from enjoying my sailing, so I am inclined to think that I shouldn't worry too much about the compatibility of a new " constant curve" Gun Mast if it can perform at least as well as the " wrong" Viper I had before.....
I'd be curious, though, to know in what respect an incompatible mast would differ from a compatible one, in terms of performance, in the eyes of an expert, concretely. Speed? Manoeuverability, Planing capability? Or are there any safety issues, like possible breakages?

Thanks

Ittiandro
29th July 2012 01:12 PM
Roger lttiandro,
I'm pretty sure your North Viper 75% mast was not quite right for the sails you have,
Do you have any idea which model Viper mast (when it was made) you broke.
I do not know much about GUN masts, bit I do know that if you go from a 75% carbon mast
to a 35% carbon mast, you will definitely feel the difference in weight and it will not be a good feeling.
I would be looking for an Ezzy/Gaastra/ Powerex/Sailworks =>75% carbon 460 cm IMCS 25 mast for your sails.
As unreg suggests, if you spend a little extra cash on getting the recommended mast from the loft that made your sails, you will get the full performance from both the mast and the sail.
Roger
29th July 2012 12:42 PM
Unregistered for me Gaastra is what they call `hard top` and Ezzy is `constant curve`
so, would the same mast even do `great` on both sails ??

Ezzy always says their sails work with ANY mast - what`s that all about ??

over time - have learned - put suggested/recommended mast with your favourite sails !!
29th July 2012 12:56 AM
ittiandro I have to buy a new carbon mast for my 7.5 Ezzy freeride sail and a 6.5 Gaastra Pilot to replace my oldish Viper 75% which has just snapped while trying to disassemble it with vise and pliers( it had gotten stuck real bad ) .I can't afford a new 75%, so I am thinking of a lower carbon mix. I am being offered a good deal on a Gun carbon mast (460 cm , 35%, 25 ICMS ). Does anybody know if Gun masts are good quality and if they work satisfactorily with the above mentioned sails? I am not looking for optimal " professional" performance but I I wouldn't want any serious incompatibility issues either, particularly as concerns the fit of the mast into the sleeve and a sufficient flexibility to allow the batten to come forward and facilitate the rotation.. As far as I am concerned, my Viper was good. If I can get the same performance from the Gun mast I'd would be more than happy.

Any comments on this?

Thanks

Ittiandro
24th January 2007 04:43 PM
Guest
RE: gun sails mast compatability

Here are some experiences and views on Gun equipment.

A wet suit lasted 12 days, the replacement lasted the same length of time. The problem in each case was extensive failure of the adhesive.

Shipping costs to claim a guarantee can be significant if you do not live in Germany.

Gun keeps people sailing where they cannot afford anything better or where they want to keep expenditure to a minimum.

I have seen the clew tear in a number of their wave sails. The same type of tear every time. Another problem was failure of the stitching inside the luff sleeve, at the inner end of the battens and at the upper end of the luff sleeve. Same failure on the same model.

Gun sails set best on Gun Masts. I found Powerex was a poor match for Gun.

Masts made in the same factory are not necessarily the same. Each manufacturer provides a specification. Board manufacturers provide different specifications to the Cobra factory

I will never again buy a Gun products. For me they were not good value in the long term.
24th January 2007 12:43 PM
Guest
RE: gun sails mast compatability

I live en denmark and I get my GUN SAIL stuff directly from Germany from GUN SAIL's homepage, no problem ! It takes around 3-4 day's after I have ordered it then a UPS comes along with the stuff. I pay 18 euro for transport of 1 sail. very easy..
23rd January 2007 11:03 PM
crazychemical
RE: gun sails mast compatability

Thanks, next stage is finding a dealer :d.... my normal shop (www.roha-surfing.eu) doens't deal in Gun sails. gonne see where i can find em, and then compare prices with my beloved Gaastra.

Surf em laddies!

23rd January 2007 09:49 PM
Guest
RE: gun sails mast compatability

I have used GUN SAILS for 2 years now. Both Target and Boster. The boster is a perfect freerace sails. 3 cam's but still good handling, and the speed is as good as any freerace sail on the market. I have out performed both Gaastra GTX, NP Saber and V8. Off caoused also with help from my ST 115 but still..
The quality have just been better and better for yeach year, but the prise have also raised a bit. All in All a very good sail to the price.
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