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14th May 2007 01:15 AM
Per
RE: Earliest planing with 8.5 m2

Exactly.. And now back to the subject. Max planing (board) with an 8.5..
Today I tried my 8.5 on a formula 158 with the 70 Drake fin. Winds were like 8 to 14 knots...
Planing was way superior to anything I've ever tried with this sail size. And when the thing was off nothing could stop it.. And I was only on a 8.5 no cam.
Some say that formulas don't work with this (small) size. Well to me there was no doubt. It was great freeriding with a very handy sail in very low wind...
13th May 2007 10:12 AM
steveC
RE: Earliest planing with 8.5 m2

Hi Per,

You make some insightful points about the merits of no cam sails. Today, there isn't that much difference when it come to freerace/freeride performance. While I was dedicated to race sails for many years, I now prefer no cams because of their solid performance and exceptional maneuverability. Also, the mast compatibility and rigging ease are very strong incentives to hang tough on no cams.

13th May 2007 02:53 AM
Per
RE: Earliest planing with 8.5 m2

Early planing on cammed vs. no cam sails depend on a lot of other factors than the actual area of the sail. A 6.2 freestyle sail may pop up a lot earlier than a 6.2 cammed race sail. But the actual range for the two may be something like 12 to 18 knots for the freestyle sail and 14 to 25 knots for the cammed racer. Speed will be seriousely in favour of the cammed one and on manouverability the freestyle sail it the winner. It´s two different worlds.
It's more interestng when it comes to cam vs. no cam freerace sails where you expect the same performance from the sail. Modern no cam freerace sails are very close to the performance of their cammed counterparts (I talk about freerace, not competition slalom/race sails, it's a different game).
To me, for freeriding/freeracing (what 95% of windsurfers do) the no cam is the winner. It's very powerful and fast don't mistake this, and handling is superior to the cammed ones.
11th May 2007 02:11 PM
Guest
RE: Earliest planing with 8.5 m2

just a note to cam vs. no cam. I actually gave a 7.5 no cam and a 7.5 3 cam free race sail. the no cam planes earlier.

I think it planes earlier because the sail is on a softer mast (25) compared to (29). It is easier to "flutter" the sail easing onto the plane. It seems that the cam sail has more "static" grunt but the no cam has more "dynamic" low end grunt.
10th May 2007 05:00 AM
Jean-Marc
RE: Earliest planing with 8.5 m2

Per,

Again with my 65 kg, by using an old '98 race board of 309 x 70 cm x 170 L, I need 10 knots of wind with same 8.2 race sail and same 48 cm race fin to be able to start and sustain the planing. For my light weight, a long board doesn't appear to play an essential role in early planing, except perhaps it's easier in the beginning to find out and adjust for the correct nose/tail pitch of the hull with a long than with a short board (see the enhanced lenght of the Apollo versus that of F161). Volume doesn't play a big role either (103-170 L) but width does (70/77/80/95 cm versus 63 cm). For a heavier body weight such as your 97 kg, I'm sure this is a completely different story, however...!

As for cammed race sail versus no cam sail, I can't really comment because I don't have both with the same surface. However, my experience taught me that the more deep the draft is, the more powerful a sail can be in the lowest range and cams do help a lot to pre-shape this deep draft in low wind range. I need 10 knots with a race RS2 8.2 sail but need 12 knots with a no cam freeride Jet 6.9 sail; or, I need 15 knots with a either a race RS1 6.6 sail or a wave NR 6.2 sail (all with adjustable on-the-fly outhaul).

Cheers !

JM
10th May 2007 01:00 AM
Per
RE: Earliest planing with 8.5 m2

I can hardly plane in 13 knots with a 8.5 (I'm 97 kgs)...
Guess the limit for me is around 20 knots.
My former big sail was a twin cam lightning 9.4. It could take very close to as much wind as the 8.5. Anyway when the 8.5 gets too big I'll just switch to a 6.5 without any problems.
10th May 2007 12:50 AM
Guest
RE: Earliest planing with 8.5 m2

In light winds,
most peolple say: a 9.5 freerace 2-3 cam is the same of a 11 full race sail.

So I THINK that a 8.5 no cam sail could be the same of a 9.5 freerace with 2-3 cam.

The real problem is in the upper wind limit: 4 cam=25kn; 2 cam=15kn; no cam=13??
9th May 2007 06:07 PM
Per
RE: Earliest planing with 8.5 m2

Thanks a lot all of you.
So it looks like there'e a optimum width/size for the board from where you won't really get more planing unless you get a bigger sail...
Except that planing through lulls (and pointing) will be a little better with a wider board (and jibing worse)..
Hmm.. will it be around 85 cm for my 8.5, and what about length?? Won't a longer board have a more straight rocker (and longer waterline=quicker in displacement mode) and add to early planing??
9th May 2007 06:11 AM
o2bnme
RE: Earliest planing with 8.5 m2

I agree with Per for the 8.x sail sizes. If you are willing to go with a bigger size sail, you can get out in less wind. I am 65 kg as well.

I take my 8.0 Retro out on my F-Type and have a blast. I have found a 66cm fin works well with this sail for my style of sailing. My next smaller board is a 73cm wide AHD race board. It does very well in the same conditions, but doesn't plane up quite as early as my F-Type 148. The extra 23cm in width does make a difference, but it is a small one. I find it makes more of a difference in staying on a plane. I can float through much bigger lulls on the F-Type 148 compared to my AHD GTS73. Also, I can point higher with the F-Type. With the wider boards, you lose the ability to get a good carve jibe though.

So, I guess I'm agreeing with Per except to say there are other factors worth considering while sailing ... upwind and the ability to plane through lulls.
9th May 2007 05:52 AM
Jean-Marc
RE: Earliest planing with 8.5 m2

Per,

It really depends on your weight. The heavier you are, the wider the board and the deeper the fin should be.

With my 65 kg, I can start and sustain planing with the same racing 8.2 sail as following :
11 knots of wind with Carve 111 and 40 cm fin
10 knots of wind with HS105 and 40 cm fin
10 knots of wind with iSonic 133 and 48 cm fin
10 knots of wind with Formula and 54 or 70 cm fin

So, it looks like a width of 77 cm is optimal for my weight and I don't really gain anything with something larger than that.

Cheers !

JM
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