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Guest 6th February 2007 04:26 PM

Why Board Maker lie about actual volume ?
I don't understand it at all .Volume is so important , it can mean
if you can sail back to shore when the wind drop or you have to swim .
It can be dangerous . Why do they lie about the volume ?
Albert .

Guest 6th February 2007 05:06 PM

RE: Why Board Maker lie about actual volume ?
I don't think that they lie on purpose, but the marketing material is often created early on, before anyhow has had an opportunity to check the volume in a tank.

Another reason is of course that the developers trust that they are so experienced that tank testing isn't needed. And they just don't seem to learn...

I agree that it is really annoying when volumes don't match. This is especially true when we are talking about boards with a liter amount that is about you bodyweight in kg. Then 5 liters matters A LOT :-(


steveC 7th February 2007 01:11 AM

RE: Why Board Maker lie about actual volume ?
In my opinion, I think casting the issue in the framework of a lie takes the situation a bit too far. In reality, the idea of absolutes in characterizing the volume of boards, the actual area of sails, or even the size of fins can be very subjective in nature. When you get down to it, the deviations are truly quite small in the scheme of things.

What I think Starboard has tried to do in marketing some of their products is to find a relative balance between physical and performance characteristics. I don't want to suggest that this marketing approach makes perfect sense, yet I believe a certain degree of liberty exists here in characterizing a product that doesn't necessarily imply deliberate deception. Overall, the width of boards these days definitely plays an important role that can affect relative flotation. Of course, this is arguable to some degree, especially considering a sailor's level of experience and ability. Yet, I think that the virtual volume thing only really comes into play with the higher caliber performance models that are designed to appeal to the more experienced sailor. If a few liters can make or break your comfort zone, one can always go with the next size board up in the model line to lessen the risk of swimming in.

When a sailor picks a particular board for a session, there is never a guarantee that the conditions will hold up. I have to be honest here concerning my 5 board quiver. I don't know the actual volumes of any of my boards, and I should point out that a couple of them are total sinkers if the wind dies off. Believe me, I've ended up swimming on occasion. Windsurfing is a dynamic sport that isn't without some degree of risk. However, in contrast to kiting, where no one has a board that will float them in, windsurfing offers a much more credible format to slog in.

o2bnme 7th February 2007 07:18 AM

RE: Why Board Maker lie about actual volume ?
I thought I read something to support what SteveC is referring to.

While I can appreciate what Starboard might be trying to do, I think you should keep the volume measurement as accurate as possible, and put something in the marketing material about how it rides like a larger or smaller board (and reference the 'it rides like a' there).

geo 7th February 2007 02:28 PM

RE: Why Board Maker lie about actual volume ?
I am rather on the same line with o2bnme. While I think SteveC is quite a bit too much diplomatic.
When I bought my RRD 281 it was specified at 103 lts.; the following year, the same board was specified at 99. My RRD 278 was specified at 90 lts. the first year, after that at 88, and is reported at 84 on the ISAF list. After that I do not rely much about volume specs; I prefer to look at the board, volume distribution, max and tail width, rail thickness, and make an idea by myself.

Volume is a technical spec, and as such it is supposed to be accurate. Board makers that fail to be on spec are actually generating troubles to the users. Carelessness and marketing reasons probably do the damage. Reliability of specs is one of those things that one does not notice much, nevertheless I am sure that over time it could silently add up to the reputation of a board maker.

IMHO it is too much complicated to describe a board behaviour size wise in terms of one single number. Therefore, mandatory to be right on spec, and then add the "best wind range of use" as a further guide. To me, "it rides like a..." could be not accurate enough since a board could behave totally different when schlogging, sub-planing and full planing.

Guest 8th February 2007 12:58 AM

RE: Why Board Maker lie about actual volume ?
what if sailmakers don't say actual sailsize? say sailsize 6? one maker makes 6.3 and other 5.8. and later say, its comparable to 6.0 this or that sail? like boardmakers say virtual volume. could be true, one sail more powerful than other, but that is told in description of sail anyway. m2 is m2 and liter is liter, additionally can say feels smaller or bigger. what if someone says board 245 and actual lenght is 239: it feels shorter? it feels wider? virtual lenght width? finally you dont know what you get.all other measures are correct, weight +- 6%, but volume. :D buying 1 liter of strong beer, virtual volume 1.5 liters?

steveC 8th February 2007 06:28 AM

RE: Why Board Maker lie about actual volume ?
Perhaps geo is right, and I'm just being diplomatic here. Actually, he right. But, let's look at the bottom line. Regardless of what's being marketed, the bottom line is success with any design, even with the less experienced sailor. When you really get down to it, when a board like the iS101 is promoted as a great board, irrespective of it "actual" specifications, aren't the results in the bottom line? It has been a core board for Kevin Pritchard, and highly recommended in the line overall by Ian Fox. Is this board a dog? I can't think so, given KP's performance. Look what AA accomplished sailing the Isonic line. It's hard to argue with a successful game

But really from my personal frame of reference, geo is right about the following guideline.

"I prefer to look at the board, volume distribution, max and tail width, rail thickness, and make an idea by myself."

Isn't that what's all about? Of course, things get quite complex when a sailor wants one board for everything. Yet, I still think that a sailor must be pragmatic, have an intuitive sense and an understanding of things when things get tougher. The optimum board to use is not always clear cut.

In answer to the Guest that posted after geo, I guess results must be the guide. If the best folks are styling on the certain products, the consumer is in a great position to leverage. Are we like the pros, where simple numbers aren't everything, you've got to decide? I think that I can realistically say this. The measure of a product offered determines its success, for good or ill.

For the true numbers, maybe the Starboard folks can respond. Was the iSonic line a success, particularly the iS101? Did their marketing plan work to everybody's advantage? From my vantage point, the virtual volume thing remains alive.

geo 8th February 2007 02:06 PM

RE: Why Board Maker lie about actual volume ?

if the bottom line is just making great boards and delivering them to the public, then why state volumes at all?

Again, tech specs are just that and are supposed to be correct.

Volume can be taken into account in many different ways depending on skill level and sailing conditions. Let me give a rough example.
For a beginner, volume has to do with floatability, and it will account for its total measure.
For an intermediate, it has to do with planing bottom end as more volume will push the board's tail deck out of the water sooner, and it will account for its tail and middle board distribution.
For an advanced sailor, it has to do with the ability to support bigger sails, and rails will be expecially important.
For a pro, it probably accounts for nothing or so.
Now a board maker can address a specific model to a specific group of sailors, but actually he can not know who in the end will use the board. Therefore, it makes no sense at all to alter volume specification and invent "virtual volume" in order to give a hint of the boards actual behaviour.
My Sonic 95 (96 lts. from the IBSA list) should be specified at 96 for a beginner and an intermediate; bigger than that for an advanced sailor, as it can easily carry bigger sails than its competitors, say 105. So, better to call it a 95/96 and state clearly that for an advanced 75 kg. sailor it can start planing at 12 knots with a 7.5 and still be competitive in 25 with a 6.0. It's easier and more useful.

Guest 8th February 2007 02:10 PM

RE: Why Board Maker lie about actual volume ?
The "virtual volume" thing is absolute crap. It did make some sense at the point where last years boards were narrow and the new boards were wide, like with the very first formula.
Now however, last years board is just as wide as this years model and what counts is the absolute volume. What would the reference for "virtual volume" be? Should it be some normative board from 1998?
Just as length, width and weight should be accurate, so should volume!
Just some food for thought: wouldn't "virtual weight" be a nice concept, or "virtual length"...


Guest 8th February 2007 04:43 PM

RE: Why Board Maker lie about actual volume ?
Techincal specifications.
They should be accurate FULL STOP.

If they are not accurate then in many countries the goods are being miss sold, as many countries have laws about such things.

It is shameful that you cant beleive the specs.

This is catagorically not just a starboard failing though it is commonplace throughout the industry, mast weights and bends, sail areas, board volumes etc.

There really is no case that holds water for describing something as somthing it is not. Stevec it simply is an untruth, a lie, and is not acceptable.

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