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-   -   Alternative technique for getting upwind on plane effectively. (http://www.star-board-windsurfing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6778)

marek 2nd September 2009 02:56 PM

Alternative technique for getting upwind on plane effectively.
 
Hi there,

I got into this article: http://www.guycribb.com/userfiles/do...ing upwind.pdf, from Guy Cribb, which teaches getting upwind in pretty different way from what I learned before.

Essentially, he says in this and other articles, that "closing the gap" by raking the rig back is a bad thing in most cases (excluding full race-on sails) as it kills the power. I remember I got this issue, that in some cases when raking the rig back I was losing the power, but I was never able to really narrow it down.
Guy Cribb says you should actually tip the mast forward and into the wind, when planing upwind.

Another interesting thing I read is in high winds you shouldn't actually lean out as much as you can, because it pushes the board too much sideways. Instead, when overpowered, his advice is to stand more upright, slightly sheet out and battle with the board, not with the sail.
This is quite contrary to other technique I've heard about before, which is lean out and don't sheet out. See here: http://www.guycribb.com/userfiles/do.../downforce.pdf.

I'm not questioning anything I learned here (thanks Roger for tons of help!), just wondering how such a different technique can actually work.

-marek

vikingsail 2nd September 2009 10:50 PM

I think the closing the gap part is to get your speed up to max but with newer freeride sails it is harder to close the gap. (see past articles in windsurfing magazine.) Before trying to head up you need max speed and then point up with your body forward.

As far as the second point in overpowered conditions I've learned to raise the boom an inch or two to get myself over the board when I've felt the sail and board trying to pitch me off. This of course is done along with tightening the downhaul and then the outhaul to try and depower the sail and maximize sail range. Never really thought of it as applying more downward force, just found that it worked to raise the boom.
Interesting articles though, I need to check out his web site. thanx.

Roger 3rd September 2009 12:15 PM

Hi Marek,
I think you may be taking some of what's in the Guy Cribb articles kind of "out of context".
Look at the board he's riding..... it's a small narrow wave board and I'll bet it has a fin < 30 cm under the tail.
I agree with Guy that to get upwind on this type of board, you need to use the upwind rail. (banking the board).
To apply this to "ALL" kinds of boards is just plain wrong.
Look at formula racers and almost anyone on a board wider than 70 cm with a fin larger than 50 cm.
Tipping the board upwind rail down is very inefficient when you have a big pointer foil under your board.
Then you need to tip the board slightly lee rail down and push hard on the fin while pulling up and out a bit with your front foot to control the roll attitude of the board at an angle that will give you the best horizontal "lift" upwind.
Guy's comments about feathering the rig are right on, regardless of what board you are on.
As far as standing up straighter and putting more down pressure (vs side pressure) on the fin, it depends again on the board width and fin size.
So, Guy Cribb is correct, if you are sailing a soft railed wave or freeride board with a smaller fin and smaller rigs.
His comment to bring the rig up slightly (from fully raked back and gap closed) will make almost any board a little easier to sail.
I'm pretty sure that when he says to bring the sail forward, he's talking only a few degrees at most and when he says bring it upwind, he's actually talking about raking the mast upwind, not forward of the mast base.
If you rake the rig upwind, you diminish it's overall size and efficiency slightly and you get a bit more vertical lift from the rig which helps support your body weight.
I think our formula racer friends will agree that unraking your rig will actually turn you off the wind slightly, not upwind, but again they are using an entirely different set of dynamics than Guy on his small finned, soft railed, wave/freestyle/freeride boards.
Hope this helps,

marek 3rd September 2009 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vikingsail (Post 34733)
I think the closing the gap part is to get your speed up to max but with newer freeride sails it is harder to close the gap. (see past articles in windsurfing magazine.) Before trying to head up you need max speed and then point up with your body forward.

My "smaller" sail, Gaastra Remedy 6.4 does not have a wide, low foot so yes, to close the gap I'd have to really rake it back.
But my other sails, 2-cam Gaastra Swifts (7.5 and 9.0) are have large foot and it is natural to close the gap with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vikingsail (Post 34733)
As far as the second point in overpowered conditions I've learned to raise the boom an inch or two to get myself over the board when I've felt the sail and board trying to pitch me off. This of course is done along with tightening the downhaul and then the outhaul to try and depower the sail and maximize sail range. Never really thought of it as applying more downward force, just found that it worked to raise the boom.

Agree with the downward force when the boom is rised, but when overpowered the usual advice is to actually LOWER the boom, to get more control and also put some weight off the rig to the board. At least this is the advice I've heard many times.
I like to have my boom high, but when really overpowered I used to lower it a couple of cm.

-marek

P.S. Thanks for explanations, Roger.

Ken 3rd September 2009 09:28 PM

The technique used to get up wind on any board depends on how much power you have in your sail. If you are fully powered, sinking the leeward rail and "riding the fin" will give you maximum pointing ability. The wider the board, the less pronounced the dropping of the leeward rail. This only works if you have full power, and sheeting in is good to a point. You can over sheet and stall, so practice is important. Closing the gap depends on your sail and board, but in general terms, yes, you want to close the gap too.

If you are overpowered while pointing, sheeting out will decrease the power and you will lose some speed and possibly gain some control, but if you are on a wide board, sheeting out also takes the weight off the mast foot and you may risk taking off (wind under the board). This is a big problem for formula boards as you must keep mast foot pressure on all the time or you could send the nose of your board straight up. On a formula board in a big gust, you just have to keep the sail powered and hang on. If you chicken out = disaster.

In less than fully powered conditions and planing, riding the fin is still possible, but your upwind angle will be much less pronounced. If you can't ride the fin (barely planing), then the "lower the windward rail" technique is necessary, even if you are slogging.

D.Neory 8th October 2009 03:05 AM

Alternative technique for getting upwind on plane effectively
 
Ohh thanks We will definetly check that out

She is looking for a light wind board to replace that Skate 99. So I think going with another Skate sounds wize.

How does Skate compare to the Hawk?

Thank you
sasha

Roger 8th October 2009 11:23 AM

Hi Sasha,
Not sure of your question here.
Unfortunately I have never sailed either the Fanatic Skate or the Fanatic Hawk, so
I have no meaningful advice on these two boards.
Perhaps try your question on the Fanatic Website.

D.Neory 29th October 2009 01:41 PM

Alternative technique for getting upwind on plane effectively
 
Slight rewrite; I am looking to by a new board for me, I mean my wife. She mostly does freeride, and she blasts so I am trying to find something that is quick to get me on plane, and to stay on plane for her. And something very responsive to surf in the waves and jibe I will use it in the waves, she so far isnt wave riding, but soon.

She currently rides the Skate, and I love it. But I was thinking that Fanatic Hawk might be better for both, her. Or should I go with the freewave models? Or stick with the freestyle boards, as this one is working so well for her even as she does no freestyle which, oddly enough, I do.

Just trying to help out.


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