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Old 5th March 2008, 01:28 AM   #11
steveC
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Poster 7,

You ever heard about pricing and the forces of supply and demand? With less rentals available on the Northshore, I'm thinking that legal rental owners are going to take advantage of the opportunity. I've never seen a situation where greater demand leads to lower pricing.
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Old 5th March 2008, 02:35 AM   #12
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Hey shred

Those millionaires aren't driving up the prices of shacks out in Haiku - or anywhere else 'normal' people live. It's a completely different market. While there is always some crossover, you will find that supply and demand scenarios generally play out within a limited socio/economic strata. In the case of most illegal vacation rentals, these are the exact same properties that would otherwise be available in the long term rental market. The result is fewer units available to residents, and higher prices for the ones that are.

As for your 'little guy just trying to make ends meet' argument, most properties on Maui are zoned for an ohana, a sub 500 sq ft rental unit. However, they are NOT zoned for a hotel business, with it's attendant liabilities and negative impact on the community. So it is possible to generate additional income legally, just not as much and not tax free.

I realize some people took the illegal vacation rental business for granted, and are a bit over extended. I have seen the same thing happen to drug dealers, another illegal business. While I suppose we could feel sorry for them, I personally think they ought to be grateful that they were able to get away with so much profit for so long and move on. Even if some have to sell a few of the multiple properties that many have accumulated through leveraging their ill-gotten gains (oops, there goes that supply/demand thing again), I don't think any of them will be hurting for too long.
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Old 5th March 2008, 02:50 AM   #13
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SteveC

Just to be perfectly clear, what I meant by 'oops, there goes that supply/demand thing again' in my last post is that, when some of these vacation rental properties are put on the market, it will have the effect of INCREASING supply, hence benefiting anyone who lives here and might want to buy a house - the reverse of what has happened during ten years a lax enforcement of the zoning laws pertaining to vacation rentals.
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Old 8th March 2008, 02:57 AM   #14
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Man, it's been 3 days and I am still waiting for Shred and SteveC's ummm 'clever' rebuttals to my posts above.

What's up with that?
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Old 11th March 2008, 06:23 AM   #15
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nah... just bored..opinions are like ass holes: everyone has one...
and mine is sore from being used too much LOL

shred
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Old 11th March 2008, 10:17 AM   #16
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For an Unregistered poster, you're a bit on the demanding and fiesty side. Sorry, I honestly missed your post.

I guess it comes down to the locals versus the visitors on the Northshore.

Do you have a dog that barks, or maybe some chickens that like dawn? Having been to the islands a lot since the mid 70's, I know that the local scene isn't always that easy overall for those owning property.

Hey, good luck! I know in Santa Barbara that just wanting cheap and affordable housing can be quite a challenge. Really, unless you have your act together financially with a great job, and more importantly, you're willing to invest in your future, the trick stuff can be awfully distant and tough.

As a visitor, Nothshore Maui must be getting stupid with the new regulations. Frankly, a Kihei vacation is not worth it in my mind. Why would anybody stay there?

Hey, good for you. One less visitor to the island, and all that might represent.
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Old 12th March 2008, 03:40 AM   #17
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Hi SteveC

Sorry if I was being feisty - beneath my humor was a genuine interest if there was a reply to my points. To be clear again:

1) I've got nothing against visitors - our local economy depends upon them. At the same time, as a fellow long time resident who has witnessed the changes to Maui resulting from unchecked development etc, it is my considered opinion that the 'aina and local communities need to come first at this point in our history.

2) While there ARE a flurry of onerous new regulations that effect windsurfers, the vacation rental laws have been on the books for a LONG time - it is the thriving underground illegal vacation rental BUSINESS that is NEW. This administration has stepped up enforcement, because affordable housing is a HUGE issue, and the illegal vacation rental business has taken thousands of rental units out of normal circulation, as well as reducing the available pool of houses for sale by several hundred - and that's just Haiku.

This is a small island, with a lot of different cultures living in very close proximity. When one subgroup profits hugely from a illegal business in a way that makes everyone else's cost of living go up, relations are strained, and quality of life is compromised as a result. It is no fun to come home to a pissed off neighbor, and building giant walls and gates around every new project is not helping.

It all comes down to aloha - and illegal TVRs do not fit the bill.
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Old 12th March 2008, 12:20 PM   #18
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Unregistered,

I'm not trying to be too insulting here, but I'll offer some honest thoughts about things as I see it. One thing that should be clear about here is that I've been a lifelong Democrat. Maybe this isn't clear to the international community, but anybody from Hawaii should understand and appreciate my perspective a bit better. Also, I should emphasize that I have no investments of any kind in Hawaii.

First, from a practical perspective, you have to be quite naive and innocent in your view of things. In the real world, unless of course you can support the fact that you're some indigenious native of Hawaii that might qualify for certain extra special rights, I find that in the real world here in the US that a protected status for the average citizen is a pipe dream.

I've lived and worked in Santa Barbara for almost 35 years, but what does that guarantee me? Does it mean I have a special right to inexpensive housing, or maybe other rights that a new resident to the area can't attain? Certainly not. Think about it. My right to be in SB is based on my ability to float and support my game. If I can't afford it, SB is history.

Should a Maui resident of a certain number of years have special rights that might be viewed like earned airline miles that can be spent how one might think suits their purposes? Maybe Hawaiian born residents should have special rights regardless of their performance and contributions to the community. Does that make sense?

Quite honestly, the American system just doesn't work that way in the real world. Those with the finances and wherewithall to take risks and make investment decisions tend to win overall when the decisions are sound, or fail if they aren't.

Is a Maui resident that develops a property and hopes to balance the situation through ocassional rentals a criminal? Sure seems like the County of Maui wants to make that a reality.

Will the nonsense and difficulties being offered by the current Maui County administration trump all? These folks are now having their day in the sun, but their stupidity and a small vision of the future is surely going to come back to haunt them. I'm sure that folks that invested and built properties for reasonable short term occupancy will eventually have a say. The world is getting more expensive and most investors worth their salt want to benefit and grow. We're talking about capitalism here. The heart of the American system.

The TVR prohibition thing hits the investor hard, particularly a local resident that's trying to forge ahead and find some leverage to afford to live in on Maui and enjoy a productive lifestyle.

The last thing real people need is impossible restrictions and laws that constrict growth and well being. Of course, if guaranteed welfare and automatic government support has predominance over the real estate market and a productive capitalistic society, a lower class category of citizens will find a comfortable home and existence. Kind of a socialist inspired haven for underprivileged masses.

Is that what we should be striving and hoping for? I think not, despite my Democratic convictions.

Lastly, noboby has offered anything concrete about how the pricing of legal Northshore rentals is affected in this slash and burn county environment. Sometimes I think that the real statistics and facts are hidden to fool and deceive the public. I feel like the locales are being riden and used here for specious reasons, and that they don't truly understand their fate.
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Old 13th March 2008, 03:54 AM   #19
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WOW, DID YOU ACTUALLY READ MY POST?

LET ME TAKE YOUR 'POINTS' ONE BY ONE:

Unregistered,

I'm not trying to be too insulting here, but I'll offer some honest thoughts about things as I see it. One thing that should be clear about here is that I've been a lifelong Democrat. Maybe this isn't clear to the international community, but anybody from Hawaii should understand and appreciate my perspective a bit better. Also, I should emphasize that I have no investments of any kind in Hawaii.

WHY DOES YOUR POLITICAL PERSUASION MATTER, AND WHAT DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH ILLEGAL TVRS?

First, from a practical perspective, you have to be quite naive and innocent in your view of things. In the real world, unless of course you can support the fact that you're some indigenious native of Hawaii that might qualify for certain extra special rights, I find that in the real world here in the US that a protected status for the average citizen is a pipe dream.

WHAT?!! WHERE DID I SAY ANYTHING LIKE THAT...OH WAIT- YOU MADE IT UP TO GET ALL SELF RIGHTEOUS. GOTCHA!

I've lived and worked in Santa Barbara for almost 35 years, but what does that guarantee me? Does it mean I have a special right to inexpensive housing, or maybe other rights that a new resident to the area can't attain? Certainly not. Think about it. My right to be in SB is based on my ability to float and support my game. If I can't afford it, SB is history.

NOT SURE HOW THIS RELATES TO ILLEGAL TVRS ON MAUI?

Should a Maui resident of a certain number of years have special rights that might be viewed like earned airline miles that can be spent how one might think suits their purposes? Maybe Hawaiian born residents should have special rights regardless of their performance and contributions to the community. Does that make sense?

IF I MAY QUOTE MYSELF: "WHAT?!! WHERE DID I SAY ANYTHING LIKE THAT...OH WAIT- YOU MADE IT UP TO GET ALL SELF RIGHTEOUS. GOTCHA!"


Quite honestly, the American system just doesn't work that way in the real world. Those with the finances and wherewithall to take risks and make investment decisions tend to win overall when the decisions are sound, or fail if they aren't.

NO ARGUMENT HERE. THE RISK IN THIS CASE IS THAT THE TVRS WERE NOT LEGAL - HENCE, THE RESULT: FAIL.

Is a Maui resident that develops a property and hopes to balance the situation through ocassional rentals a criminal? Sure seems like the County of Maui wants to make that a reality.

IF THAT MAUI RESIDENT CHOOSES TO FINANCE A DEVELOPMENT PROPERTY BY OPERATING A CRIMINAL BUSINESS (AN ILLEGAL TVR, FOR EXAMPLE), WHY YES, THEY ARE A CRIMINAL. ALL THE COUNTY OF MAUI IS DOING IS ENFORCING EXISTING LAWS.

Will the nonsense and difficulties being offered by the current Maui County administration trump all? These folks are now having their day in the sun, but their stupidity and a small vision of the future is surely going to come back to haunt them. I'm sure that folks that invested and built properties for reasonable short term occupancy will eventually have a say. The world is getting more expensive and most investors worth their salt want to benefit and grow. We're talking about capitalism here. The heart of the American system.

THE PEOPLE THAT INVESTED AND BUILT BASED ON AN ILLEGAL BUSINESS MODEL HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT THEMSELVES. THE STATE OF HAWAII DOESN'T OWE THESE 'INVESTORS' ANYTHING.

The TVR prohibition thing hits the investor hard, particularly a local resident that's trying to forge ahead and find some leverage to afford to live in on Maui and enjoy a productive lifestyle.

DUDE, ILLEGAL TVRS HAVE BEEN ILLEGAL FOR YEARS AND YEARS. AND AS I'VE POINTED OUT PREVIOUSLY, ILLEGAL TVRS MAKE THE COST OF BUYING A HOUSE MORE EXPENSIVE FOR THE LAW-ABIDING MAJORITY OF MAUI RESIDENTS.

The last thing real people need is impossible restrictions and laws that constrict growth and well being. Of course, if guaranteed welfare and automatic government support has predominance over the real estate market and a productive capitalistic society, a lower class category of citizens will find a comfortable home and existence. Kind of a socialist inspired haven for underprivileged masses.

ILLEGAL TVRS ARE NO MORE PART OF A PRODUCTIVE CAPITALISTIC SOCIETY THAN ILLEGAL DRUG DEALING, NOR DO THEY CONTRIBUTE TO 'WELL BEING'. AND GEE, WHAT A BUMMER IF ENFORCING EXISTING LAWS WOULD PERMIT A 'LOWER CLASS CATEGORY OF CITIZENS' (YOUR WORDS) TO FIND A 'COMFORTABLE HOME AND EXISTENCE'.

Is that what we should be striving and hoping for? I think not, despite my Democratic convictions.

YOU MEAN YOUR CONVICTION THAT WEALTHY 'INVESTORS' SHOULD BE ABLE TO OPERATE ABOVE THE LAW AT EVERYONE ELSE'S EXPENSE? YOU'RE ABOUT AS DEMOCRATIC AS KEN LAY!

Lastly, noboby has offered anything concrete about how the pricing of legal Northshore rentals is affected in this slash and burn county environment. Sometimes I think that the real statistics and facts are hidden to fool and deceive the public. I feel like the locales are being riden and used here for specious reasons, and that they don't truly understand their fate.

MAYBE THE FOLK WHO ACTUALLY WENT TO THE TROUBLE TO SET UP A LEGAL BUSINESS WILL BE ABLE TO CHARGE A LITTLE MORE NOW THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO COMPETE WITH A BUNCH OF CRIMINALS! HONESTY IS IT'S OWN REWARD. BESIDES, I THOUGHT YOU WERE 'PRO CAPITALISM', SO SURELY THE CONCEPT OF SUPPLE AND DEMAND SHOULD RESONATE.

WELL STEVEC, I HAVE TO SAY I WAS DISAPPOINTED WITH YOUR INCREDIBLY POORLY THOUGHT OUT RESPONSE. YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT BOILS DOWN TO THE IDEA THAT A FEW 'INVESTORS' WHO HAVE BEEN GETTING RICH BY RUNNING A CRIMINAL BUSINESS SHOULD BE GIVEN A PASS BY MAUI OFFICIALS SEEKING TO ENFORCE EXISTING LAWS, REGARDLESS OF THE COST TO THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE, SO THAT YOU AND A FEW OTHER VISITORS CAN SAVE A FEW BUCKS WHEN YOU COME HERE.

PLEASE ASK YOURSELF A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS:

1) DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT RICH INVESTORS SHOULD BE ABOVE THE LAW? OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER?

2) DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THE FUTURE OF MAUI WILL BE COMPROMISED IF VISITORS HAVE TO PAY A FAIR PRICE (DICTATED BY SUPPLY AND DEMAND) FOR VACATION RENTALS AS A RESULT OF THE COUNTY SHUTTING DOWN THE CURRENT BLACK MARKET?
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Old 13th March 2008, 07:50 AM   #20
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Quite frankly, you have your view of things and I have mine, and I think it would be difficult find a real understanding here. That's OK. Nevertheless, I can honestly say, that I'd much rather live were I do, and skip the thought of vacationing in Maui.

Fortunately, I've done Maui many times, but my last trip there was in 1997. All my stays there were right on the beach at John and Louise Severson's property in Specklesville. I think that I tasted Maui at its sweetest for windsurfing. Looks like the Maui of the future is a much different place.

Like I said much earlier, good luck!
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