Old 20th June 2011, 08:39 AM   #31
Brett Morris
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Formula is a sport, and to win in any sport you need skills and fitness at a bare minimum.
To win a Europeans or World title you need to be semi or total Pro.
That said, that level of commitment is not required to enjoy Formula Sailing and racing.

I see windsurfing as predominantly a light wind activity, at venues that aren't necessarily perfect.
Sailing in 7-12knots is fantastic fun, especially when you can sail anywhere you want because of the ability to sail up and down wind.
When I see the majority of windsurfers and kite-surfers for that matter sitting on the beach complaining about the conditions, I almost have to laugh.

Wake up and get with the program.
Get a big board and sail, clock up considerably more time on the water and improve you skills + enjoy the more competitive scene if so inclined.

Owning one board and 2 sails will cover you from 6-25knots at almost any location (not beach breaks though). Seems to me that you are crazy not to have piece of kit like this in your quiver if you want to actually go windsurfing instead of talking about it....

Last edited by Brett Morris; 20th June 2011 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 20th June 2011, 04:39 PM   #32
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what size sail will you be using on a formula board in 25 knots of wind?
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Old 20th June 2011, 05:15 PM   #33
Floyd
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Brett
I`m afraid I think you are showing your ignorance of both sailors and many places they sail in.
I sail at two venues.
East coast UK and Leucate France
At neither do I witness people moaning about lack of wind;they stay away and do other things.Formula does not provide the excitement sailing in stronger winds does. It simply cant.Other things can.
Trying to replicate the feeling of F5 + sailing in F2 is simply barmy and impossible.
Like riding a fireblade fitted with a moped engine !!!
Fair enough if you enjoy F2 sailng, I`d rather be elsewhere looking forward to sailing in F5 sometime in the futre.
Part of the attraction is the unpredicability.
Also many venues generally get 20knots + or almost nothing where even Formula would be a waste of time.Sailors around Leucate are lucky..Its either blowing or there is none. In uk we are blessed with the lot. I`ll sail when its suits; you sail 365 days a year and I`ll enjoy my 80 or so days.

Not sure what programme you are talking about but I sure as hell aint watching it !!!

All my mates must be crazy too. I`ve got biggest board of us all; and thats only 124 litres !!!

We normally end up rescuing the sailors who turn up with much bigger !!!

Three questions
1) Who mentioned 1 board 2 sails ???? Perhaps if you are flying somewhere ??? I said 2 boards /5 sails covering 13 (ish) to 40 (ish) Any conditions.

2) Not only what sail Formula + 25 knots but why Formula in 15 knots + ???

3) If what you say is correct why is Formula dead in UK ??? (ok dying !) Windsurfing certainly isnt. Go to Rhosneigre/East Coast/Soth Coast/ and watch hundreds of sailors not on the programme enjoying themselves in strong winds.

Its a simple fact of life and physics. WindSURFING is a strong wind activity. No matter what you try and do ;big sails ;big boards;long boards;wideboards whatever ;it can not be changed. You are talking about SAILBOARDING which in reality died out years ago.

Last edited by Floyd; 20th June 2011 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 20th June 2011, 09:56 PM   #34
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Where you live and the typical winds determines what boards and sails you have. I see why Floyd doesn't want, need or would consider a formula board.

From what I have read, most windsurfers in the world are stuck with relatively light winds. What Brett says is 100% valid if you find that you are stuck with winds from 8-15 knots a good percentage of the year or all year for many. I get 20+ more days of sailing a year because I have formula gear. For me and Brett, it's worth it, for Floyd, it's not.

As for unregistered's question about what sail to use in 25 knots on a formula board. That depends on two points.

1. Free sailing or racing? For racing, it's upwind and downwind and racers will carry large sails to maximize their downwind speed. 25 knots is high wind for formula racers and most skilled racers will have a 9 meter as their smallest sail. Free sailing, mostly reaching - something small around 6.5 or 7.5 is doable but no fun. No one will just be reaching out and back on a formula board in 25 knots for fun. We will be on a small board and sail, or practicing on the formula gear, upwind and downwind. I don't practice on my formula gear anymore in winds over 18 knots.

2. Skill level (and or age) also determines what sail to choose. I have raced on my formula board in a half dozen regattas in winds over 25 knots. I used a 6.6 in these conditions so I could finish and survive. The younger guys generally have anything from a 9.0 to a 7.5 in these conditions. For me, it wasn't that much fun (actually, pretty darn scary). I have clocked 24 knots of board speed (on my GPS) on some downwind runs in 1meter chop in a few races. Guys on the bigger sails are a couple of knots faster. I would much prefer to race formula in 10-15 knots.
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Old 20th June 2011, 10:52 PM   #35
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Floyd, sounds like you're one of the people that live in high wind location-enjoy, But, reality is that most of us live too far from high wind meccas, and we're not planning to quit windsurfing (or as you call it sailboarding) just because you dimmed it uncool and passe...
And until you try full speed down-winder on a FW, I don't think you ready to judge the feeling
you get sailing F5 vs. F2, etc... Actually, I sailed both 40 kn with a tinny board +3.6 m2 sail
and 17kn with FW and 10 m2 and both can give you jolt of adrenaline.
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Old 20th June 2011, 10:59 PM   #36
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I just dont get these folk pushing;shouting about using massive sails in 20+knots of wind oin Formula and then telling us how much skill they need to do it !!!

a) Why are you even on Formula kit in 20+ knots wind in the first place ?

b) Why hang on to 11 metre sails, ever, in anything approaching 25 knots ??? Ego perhaps ?

Wake up "Get on the program" Get some good kit that is designed for 25 knots .


The logistics of Formula just dont make sense in UK. Price of a competitive board; 2 or 3 big sails that can only be used on it. A massive mast and a great big carbon boom. Perhaps 5k ???(or more and replaced every year if you want to be at front).And then you would rather be on the other kit or actually should be on it most days that are worth sailing on. Most UK sailors just can justify that outlay for a few compromised days sailing.

I came to conclusion for me to enjoy big kit it was windy enough to get smaller more versatile board/rig going.. Formula simply replaced the old Div 2 scene with equal failings." It died out fore a reason"" is perfectly correct.

Formula is dead and even at its height only ever represented a tiny percentage of sailing in UK.
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Old 20th June 2011, 11:57 PM   #37
Ken
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Formula is only dead when Starboard and others stop making formula boards. It may well happen if the market shrinks too much. Should that happen, then the Ultrasonic 147 or other similar boards will replace formula. Much of the world wants to plane 8-12 knots and it takes big boards and sails (9-11 meters) to do that.

Why so much criticism for those of us that enjoy sailing all over the lake/bay/ocean in light winds?

Those that "hang on to 11 meter sails in anything approaching 25 knots" do so because they love racing and or are practicing for racing. It takes skill and technique to do so, so why is that a bad thing. There are lots of extremes in windsurfing (big waves, speed sailing, freestyle, PWA high wind slalom). Is it ego? Sure to some extent, but it's the challenge that pushed many of us to press their limits and IMPROVE THEIR SKILLS.

No one says that the world has to understand it, it's just what we choose to do.

The only thing between the old Div 2 racing and formula is light winds, but formula racing occurs between 8 and 28 knots and has offered a much broader appeal to racers. Div 2 died because it wasn't much fun freesailing on them and it took highly skilled sailors to race them. Just not enough interest to justify making the boards. Formula may go the same route.

Regardless, many of us will still have a big planing board that is fast in 10 knots of wind with a big sail. Maybe unregistered isn't aware that a formula board can reach 20 knots of board speed in 10 knots of wind, and for me, that's better than sitting on the beach.
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Old 21st June 2011, 12:34 AM   #38
BelSkorpio
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I like FW a lot.
Recreational, i.e.
Planing in 8-12 knots, where no one has planed before ! Beam me up Scotty

Except for the US147 or lookalike, which board is capable of delivering this to a 85kg+ rider ?

Hey Floyd, I've also been quite a few times in Leucate.
Even there, many times during the days when the tramontana is having a nap, you can enjoy great FW sessions on the sea side with 8-12k of wind from the east, super stable. When you're not too tired of the tramontana sessions, you should try it once. It's a lot of fun and better than to drink those beers, all day long lol

It's like Ken said,
I also prefer the smaller gear.
Every recreational windsurfer does.
No hair on my head that thinks of using FW in 15+ conditions.
But especially when there are a lot of days/weekends without wind, like sometimes in summer with us, FW can be really a big asset.
That's why I'm also interested a lot in the US147.
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Old 21st June 2011, 05:55 AM   #39
Floyd
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I wasnt knocking Formula .Never said it wasnt cool. (But come to mention it it aint but neither is the way I sail !!!)

I`ve tried Formula and considering cost and its general lack of versatility and fact that I`d rather be doing something else in F2 and on smaller kit in F4 means I`m spending a fortune to sail in F3.Spending 4 or 5 thousand quid to sail in F3 ????

.
I`ll stick to my beers in F2/3.

And just to add insult to injury !!!

There used to be a thriving Div1 and Div 2 racing fleet which developed into racing class we know today.(The long board racing series) We look at Formula as if it offered a panacea for a healthy sport. In its striving for illusive light wind planing it probably destroyed (certainly helped destroy) what was infact a much better racing machine for light winds. Even today with zero development and limited to 6.5 sails a good sailor aboard on old Div2 would leave Formula for dead in under 12 knots around any racing course. IMO we were blinded in our clamouring for planing sailing;all the money;development; sponsorship Kudos went with Formula. The poor old longboard and especially its high performance cousin Div2 were forgotten.The fleets hardly mentioned its champions forgotten.
If you really want to sail in light winds get a div 2 !!!!
Getting a board to plane in really light airs produces a craft totally unsuited to anything but planing. The non-planing hulls (serenity/div2 ?? as if its new and SB invented it ???) should have been where development went. In effect Formula has lead us into a dead end !!! ??? Our sport is littered with money making revolutions ; it should have been a slow evolution. Like they say revolution infers going around in circles ??? SB has contributed loads to our sport;some of it not entirely productive ????

Last edited by Floyd; 21st June 2011 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 21st June 2011, 05:52 PM   #40
BelSkorpio
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Well, we are arriving now at a point where everything becomes very subjective of course.

Some like WS in a gliding mode, others only in a planing mode.
Personally I only like the planing mode.

FW is expensive, I agree. There is a lot available with us on the 2nd hand market, but still ...
In general, the less wind there is, the more expensive the gear gets.
But time is money. And I want to spend my WS time as economical as possible.
Because I can only do my hobby in the WE's and holidays, it gets extremely important to have the right equipment for all possible conditions, even the conditions that are less favourable (i.e. FW conditions, in my case).
If I were able to windsurf any day I would choose, I probably woud not invest in FW equipment. I also would wait a few days until the wind would pick up to be able to use smaller gear. Unfortunately, I am not in this luxuary situation.

So you see, it's for all of us different.

I will always encourage any gear that will make it easier to windsurf (in a planing mode) with less wind.
Although I think that we nearly reached the limits with 8 knots and formula gear (or the US147).
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