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Old 28th June 2011, 04:03 AM   #61
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Thats fairly obviuos Ken !!! (and CoachG)

The point that all you starboard supporters just will not accet /realise is the level of cynical marketing by the larger companies to promote areas of sport (ie Formula) purely in a an interest to sell large numbers of boards with no thought of either their long termeffect on sport;their real performance or ;more importantlly; their negative effect on types of boards inherently more suitable for the discipline/usage in mind..(ie light wind)

Any body who has sailed a god div 2 (now 20 years out of date) can not fail to realise its superior performance in light winds over anything available ;against Formula its just a riduculous comparison. One works the other just does not !!! Races had to be changed;courses altered , great big sails developed ,all in the name of progress which was infact the total reverse.. Planing became the holly grail because it sells boards not becuse it has real performance benefits. Even today an Od Div 2 would leave a Formula dead in the water around an OLYMPIC saiing course in under 15 knots.... But SB couldnt build Div2 so they destroyed it !!! (Actually gulable sailors did believing the hype did !!!) Nw all the Div 2 have gone to the wall Starboard bring out the Serenity !!! If thats not cynical marketing I dont know what is !!!
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Old 28th June 2011, 04:51 AM   #62
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To be honest, I had never heard about a div 2 boards so I've googled around and found a link that describes a little bit the Olympic class history of board sailing.
http://www.windsurfing.org/olympics01.htm

I understand from this article that you are talking about the round bottom boards, like we used to call them.

I can see that they are far better gliders than a formula board and that they will leave a formula board for dead in winds < 8 knots, but how efficient do they plane when the wind is above 8 knots ?

I understand that you also like to glide with a board, but are you against planing ?
Or do you claim that these boards also plane better than formula boards ?
If so, can you also explain why ? Do you have experience with this ? I mean, have you also tried Formula ?
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Old 28th June 2011, 03:48 PM   #63
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Argument re round boards v Formula is not really the issue. Div 2 and their like were competely abondoned in the search for light wind planing machines which attracted all the marketing, promotion and money. Courses were altered to favour these new exciting (marketing word) machines.The versatile boards capable of sailing in BOTH planing and none planing mode were made out (by marketing/mags/investment in other areas) to seem slow and boring. (Which they were neither)
Starboard swept up both in results and sales. Now people wake up o fact that 1 metre wide boards ae at best limited and just DO NOT WORK sub planing but al the firms building the boards that did have long gone leaving SB to now sell Serenity ,which in normal SB fashion is as normal a step too far but with SB`s brillint marketing it sels.
I just dont understand why sailors dont see it !!!

If you want to sail in less than15 knots (on all points of sail) without doubt the best bards to have are long boards. The old Div 2 bee the fastest of the bunch. I wonder what Div 2 could hae developed into had SB spent similar time promoting/devloping them .

As fo div 2 V Formula ??? Div 2 were limited to 6.5 sails; for an objective comparison stick same size sails on them and then compare in various winds; fair enough as wind increases Formula would walk away but y which time I`d bet a good (bigish) slalom woud lave Formula ???
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Old 29th June 2011, 01:54 AM   #64
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I have raced a Crit DII back in the mid 80's and indeed they were/are the fastest thing around in 8 knots or less. However, DII boards were not popular simply because they took a ton of skill to sail, tack and jibe. Not the progression most windsurfers were looking for unless they were racers. In 15 knot winds, they were almost impossible to sail unless you were highly skilled and even at that, it wasn't fun.

I will take exception to a race between any board and a formula board in 15 knots. Nothing will beat a formula board in 15 knot winds on an upwind/downwind course. Clearly, you have not sailed a formula board with a big sail in 15 knot winds. Yes a DII board will point about 20 degrees higher, but the formula board will be moving at double or triple the speed of the DII. No contest. Downwind, the same thing.

You assume all of us out here are slaves to the marketing of the BIG board companies. A rather biased view point and certainly not true for me. In fact, I admire Starboard and the other companies that throw money into new developments and designs without any real idea how the windsurfing community will respond. This is about progress an innovation and I think it is a good thing. My only gripe with Starboard is the huge selection of boards that they offer, it's so hard to choose. Just kidding a bit.

Planing is the holy grail for most windsurfers and that's why boards have been getting wider and sails bigger. The majority rules when it comes to sales and marketing. On the other hand, I am also glad to see gear designed for light winds and non planing conditions, since there are still plenty of windsurfers for which it appeals.
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Old 29th June 2011, 02:26 AM   #65
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Time to stop feeding the TROLL. Unreg will just keeo comming back at you!!
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Old 29th June 2011, 11:32 PM   #66
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Thats it, when you disagree with a poster call him/her a troll. Sums this forum up these days...

My last post........

Ken read my post !!!

Had Div2 had anything like the developent wideboards had where would they be now ??? Give them equal Fins/sails/masts/booms and 15/20 years development and you really think you could beat one around an OLYMPIC course in under 15 knots ??? (UNDER ....)

Boardspeed a Formula would win but VMG upwind and down ?????????

And you talk of wanting technical sailing but thn pronounce Div2 too hard to sail....Make your mind up !!

Imagine modern Div2....wider beam;flatter towards rear;rounded up front; long water line length.Good sliding track.. Straps to rear...Never happened because Cobra at time couldnt build it so SB pushed like mad for light wind planing machines..

You can look at it how you like.End of day formula is now going same way as old Div2 because it was basically a gimmick; a revolution. Not a true forward step in board design. Its on its way out and for good reasons.

You are just reading from the SB hymn book !!!
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Old 29th June 2011, 11:57 PM   #67
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One thing is for sure, its a big wide world out there and every one has a different point of view, as this thread shows

Today at my beach, after failing to get my iS137/9m going in 6 to 8 knot winds, I rigged up my F161/11m and had a great session in board shorts. For me this what Formula is about these day's. Would much prefer to be on a 50 litre speed board, but today was still fun.
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Old 30th June 2011, 01:40 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post

Imagine modern Div2
OK, I will. Um….Prodigy?

The U.S. could have put its entire military budget into developing Div. 2 & it would still have died. Starboard & formula didn’t kill Div. 2, it was the windsurfers. Mark H summed it up perfectly. “Would much prefer to be on a 50 liter speed board, but today was still fun.” Other then racing, what was a Div. 2 board good for? Formula offers racing ability for those who want to race and the thrill of speed in light winds –fun-for those who do not want to race.

Formula may be on its way out @ most places but please stop bringing back the dead horse.

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Old 30th June 2011, 02:39 AM   #69
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There are plenty of good light wind boards available today, both planing and non planing. Adding a new D2 type board would accomplish very little if anything - UNLESS they were for racing.

In 5 knots of wind and on something like a Kona, one will be moving along at about 5 knots of speed. The board is stable and easy to tack and jibe. Get on a D2 board and you will be moving a knot or two faster, but the board will be very tippy (round bottom) and unstable, harder to tack and much hard to jibe, but it will point higher.

If not racing, who would want a D2 board? Maybe some guys that just like the challenge of mastering the board, but certainly not the masses.

I don't think I ever said that I wanted technical sailing, actually just the opposite. Formula is easy to sail, the platform is huge and you almost never fall off. It only becomes technical when fully powered and you press your limits. It is only as technical as you want it to be. Beginners can learn easily on a formula board, but they would give up quickly on a D2 board.

Unless you have tried it, dumping on formula sailing makes no sense.
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Old 30th June 2011, 03:17 AM   #70
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Been following this thread for a while. Dont agree with all unreg has had to say but its healthy to hear other side of argument.(and its what I hear at our club generally about SB ,ie marketing/promotion over substance) ????

Point nobody has made is cost.

MarkH rigged an 11 metre;most likely on a 520 100% carbon mast and perhaps a 260 (??) carbon boom.Put them on a wideboard with a 70cm fin ??? Might be wrong but there`s no way on earth your average recreational sailor will spend that type of money for the particlular day that kit works on unless he`s already into racing (or plans to be?) Value of all that kit?? 3 or 4 thousand ????

Dont think audience on this site is at all representitive of sailors in general. Most I know own 2 boards; occasionally 3 (and another 3 in garage roof from times past ???) .Totalling what some own on here you could buy on offshore 60 footer. (well nearly)

Sailors who dont race will never buy Formula .Thats why it dies in certain areas;without a racing fleet/events/promotion it will die.

Its a fair point about SB not promoting other fleets.They didnt.But why should they ??? They are in business to sell boards; they build Formula so they promote it !!!??? Fact of life.

Would be interesting to see breakdown of boards sold last few years.. I suspect Formula are selling fewer each year but I wouldnt be surprised if that was case in general for all boards..(Especially SB ???)

There`s one event per year near us for Formula.????? Last year it was blowing F5/6.... They didnt need the big kit ???
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